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  #21  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:49 PM
Danyelle Danyelle is offline
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Originally Posted by uygi [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Naw, mine would involve an algorithmically generated scalable post-apocalyptic world in which you're introduced to the game in a tutorial that kind of mimics the opening scenes of Shaun of the Dead.
Sounds awesome. I move to provide you with funding and a minimum of 3, maximum of 7, women to assist in your game's development. See you in 2001 sir.
  #22  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:49 PM
Malrubius Malrubius is offline
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Originally Posted by Danyelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You guys realize Sony has been in control of Everquest since before it's release, since it's very inception. As has Smedly who was the original person to gain the funding for Everquest from Sony. That Verant was just a subsidiary division of 989 Studios, which itself was a division of Sony, after 989 decided to focus on the Playstation and that they were reformed into the SoE you see today. You know all that right.....right?

Of course you don't, you see, hear, and believe what you want to believe.

QUICKLY MEN! I HEARD THEY'RE PUTTING CATS ON THE MOON. GATHER YOUR PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES WE MUST BURN THE HEATHENS!
Nobody said that they couldn't make a top-tier MMO in the past. Obviously they could...they made one.

This thread is about future games. And in all likelihood, they are incapable. Witness EQ1 as it exists today, EQ2, and what became of Vanguard.

imo, it's pretty clear that they have been moving in the wrong direction for a long time.
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  #23  
Old 04-30-2012, 02:53 PM
mwatt mwatt is offline
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Originally Posted by Danyelle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You guys realize Sony has been in control of Everquest since before it's release, since it's very inception. As has Smedly who was the original person to gain the funding for Everquest from Sony. That Verant was just a subsidiary division of 989 Studios, which itself was a division of Sony, after 989 decided to focus on the Playstation and that they were reformed into the SoE you see today. You know all that right.....right?

Of course you don't, you see, hear, and believe what you want to believe.

QUICKLY MEN! I HEARD THEY'RE PUTTING CATS ON THE MOON. GATHER YOUR PITCHFORKS AND TORCHES WE MUST BURN THE HEATHENS!
Having financial control of something does not equate to understanding it. Smed wants to play in this world, he just doesn't "get" what EQ is really all about. EQ was the baby of Brad and a handful of other major contributors. One need only look at how EQ evolved after Brad and company left to see this. If you want more proof, look at how VG was first "saved" and then systematically raped.

Your post implies that I am an unthinking, emotive ostrich. The fact of the matter is that I have thought and written about this very subject several times over the years, and had exchanges with many other thoughtful players on related topics. Your assertions do not jibe with their well-considered opinions. Furthermore, I have personally written Smed twice to discuss removal or changing of the death penalty in VG. Trust me. He doesn't get it.
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  #24  
Old 04-30-2012, 03:57 PM
envino envino is offline
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The question as to whether or not these guys know how to create an MMO is largely moot - in my opinion, they did, and they still do. The real question is CAN they? I submit that they cannot.
To create a modern MMO requires a piles of money, and a reasonable assurance to the investors that those millions of dollars will be returned, plus millions more.
There is a perfectly good reason that the newer MMO's all feel the same, because essentially, they are. The goal of a modern-day MMO is to make money, period. In order to make money on the scale that is required, your game has to appeal to a very broad base of gamer, you need subscriptions in the millions, not thousands, or even hundreds of thousands - millions. You absolutely have to build your game to the lowest common denominator - there can be no waiting around, no frustration, no way to fail. The average person (and it has always been this way, more on that in a moment) approaches an MMO like a sitcom episode - they want to be entertained for a short time and then on to something else. WoW does an outstanding job of catering to the millions. Its not the same millions, you play for awhile, you realize after a year or so that there is nothing else, and you quit. Meanwhile, there's a whole new generation of 12 years olds to take your place, and they just rotate through. Almost all gamers have played WoW for awhile.
So here I am. I'm in my 40's, I started out playing good old DnD in my early teens, played MuDs until my 20's until EQ came out, basked in that until it became the same old treadmill, and have been floundering around hoping for the real thing ever since.
But you and I, we're dinosaurs, very nearing extinction. There aren't that many of us around anymore, certainly not enough of us to supply millions of dollars to support the game we want. I want death penalties, I want slow travel, I want difficult leveling, I want weight and food to matter, I want a certain amount of realism that is just too frustrating for the masses.
I have been hoping for a small company to pop up and make the game that i want to play, but i just don't see it happening - which is why i was so excited to find P99. Here it is, in all its glory, my game. I just hope we can keep it going!
I still hold out hope for the future -

Oh, and gamers have always been this way, I knew tons of people back in the day that thought EQ was waaaay too hard and time consuming to play. The bar was just lower in those days. A few hundred thousands subscribers was plenty to make a little money. WoW pretty much changed the whole landscape.
Last edited by envino; 04-30-2012 at 04:02 PM.. Reason: added....
  #25  
Old 04-30-2012, 04:08 PM
Silentone Silentone is offline
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Originally Posted by envino [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The question as to whether or not these guys know how to create an MMO is largely moot - in my opinion, they did, and they still do. The real question is CAN they? I submit that they cannot.
To create a modern MMO requires a piles of money, and a reasonable assurance to the investors that those millions of dollars will be returned, plus millions more.
There is a perfectly good reason that the newer MMO's all feel the same, because essentially, they are. The goal of a modern-day MMO is to make money, period. In order to make money on the scale that is required, your game has to appeal to a very broad base of gamer, you need subscriptions in the millions, not thousands, or even hundreds of thousands - millions. You absolutely have to build your game to the lowest common denominator - there can be no waiting around, no frustration, no way to fail. The average person (and it has always been this way, more on that in a moment) approaches an MMO like a sitcom episode - they want to be entertained for a short time and then on to something else. WoW does an outstanding job of catering to the millions. Its not the same millions, you play for awhile, you realize after a year or so that there is nothing else, and you quit. Meanwhile, there's a whole new generation of 12 years olds to take your place, and they just rotate through. Almost all gamers have played WoW for awhile.
So here I am. I'm in my 40's, I started out playing good old DnD in my early teens, played MuDs until my 20's until EQ came out, basked in that until it became the same old treadmill, and have been floundering around hoping for the real thing ever since.
But you and I, we're dinosaurs, very nearing extinction. There aren't that many of us around anymore, certainly not enough of us to supply millions of dollars to support the game we want. I want death penalties, I want slow travel, I want difficult leveling, I want weight and food to matter, I want a certain amount of realism that is just too frustrating for the masses.
I have been hoping for a small company to pop up and make the game that i want to play, but i just don't see it happening - which is why i was so excited to find P99. Here it is, in all its glory, my game. I just hope we can keep it going!
I still hold out hope for the future -

Oh, and gamers have always been this way, I knew tons of people back in the day that thought EQ was waaaay too hard and time consuming to play. The bar was just lower in those days. A few hundred thousands subscribers was plenty to make a little money. WoW pretty much changed the whole landscape.
^^ all that +1
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  #26  
Old 04-30-2012, 04:20 PM
mwatt mwatt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by envino [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
The question as to whether or not these guys know how to create an MMO is largely moot - in my opinion, they did, and they still do. The real question is CAN they? I submit that they cannot.
To create a modern MMO requires a piles of money, and a reasonable assurance to the investors that those millions of dollars will be returned, plus millions more.
There is a perfectly good reason that the newer MMO's all feel the same, because essentially, they are. The goal of a modern-day MMO is to make money, period. In order to make money on the scale that is required, your game has to appeal to a very broad base of gamer, you need subscriptions in the millions, not thousands, or even hundreds of thousands - millions. You absolutely have to build your game to the lowest common denominator - there can be no waiting around, no frustration, no way to fail. The average person (and it has always been this way, more on that in a moment) approaches an MMO like a sitcom episode - they want to be entertained for a short time and then on to something else. WoW does an outstanding job of catering to the millions. Its not the same millions, you play for awhile, you realize after a year or so that there is nothing else, and you quit. Meanwhile, there's a whole new generation of 12 years olds to take your place, and they just rotate through. Almost all gamers have played WoW for awhile.
So here I am. I'm in my 40's, I started out playing good old DnD in my early teens, played MuDs until my 20's until EQ came out, basked in that until it became the same old treadmill, and have been floundering around hoping for the real thing ever since.
But you and I, we're dinosaurs, very nearing extinction. There aren't that many of us around anymore, certainly not enough of us to supply millions of dollars to support the game we want. I want death penalties, I want slow travel, I want difficult leveling, I want weight and food to matter, I want a certain amount of realism that is just too frustrating for the masses.
I have been hoping for a small company to pop up and make the game that i want to play, but i just don't see it happening - which is why i was so excited to find P99. Here it is, in all its glory, my game. I just hope we can keep it going!
I still hold out hope for the future -

Oh, and gamers have always been this way, I knew tons of people back in the day that thought EQ was waaaay too hard and time consuming to play. The bar was just lower in those days. A few hundred thousands subscribers was plenty to make a little money. WoW pretty much changed the whole landscape.
I agree with some of what you say but not that SOE knows how to create an MMO with depth and long lasting playability. You claim they are unable to because it is not economically feasible. There might be some truth in that. However, the HAD on their hands a deep MMO that was a screaming financial success. They shat in that bed when it would have been possible to keep it rolling on the same kind of path that it already followed. Nope, they just had to muck with it, probably going for the bigger dollar. VG is similar. It was already 4/5 done, they just had to complete it. But they elected to morph it to be wowesque, chasing the wow dollar. Didn't work out too well.
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  #27  
Old 04-30-2012, 04:41 PM
envino envino is offline
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Well, that's exactly my point. At some moment a bunch of suits walked into the room and said "we need more subscribers, your game is too hard, change it - make it more like wow or you're fired".
  #28  
Old 04-30-2012, 05:37 PM
gloine36 gloine36 is offline
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MMO's are economically feasible. The problem is corporations don't view games like players do. The suits want to invest money into something that returns that money for many, many years as a veritible money stream. An awesome MMO will possibly last for 10 years. We don't know yet because while EQ is now 13 years old how much real profit is it producing? WoW is almost 8 and I think we can assume it will still product profit for several more years.
The suits see WoW as what they want in an MMO. What they don't get is that it came from a company that built games for several years and had an existing fanbase that was international in scope. Wow may be a game that never gets replicated. That doesn't mean games can't be made that are just as good or better and make good money. There are games out there that are smaller and making money for their owners. The problem is that the money men want WoW every time.
The business world is insane right now. It used to be if you invested x dollars and made 2x that back in a few years you did good. Now they want multiple X dollars back or the investment is a failure? I think the best games are going to come from smaller teams of builders who create their worlds before they get the big money. Once they have a good product ready for the final polishing the money men can step in and spend the big $$ needed to market it, put together the CS teams, and do the expensive stuff.
Good grief, the technology today to build a good game is there and it's not crazy expensive. You don't need cutting edge graphics. You need content and design. Seriously, look at the WoW graphics. Then look at the EQ2 graphics back in 04. They were so awesome few people had the power to run the PC to play them at their best setting. That's what killed EQ2. The game was good. It was just that too many people didn't have enough PC to play the game at any acceptable mode while they could play WoW at good or high settings.
Let's be honest. We could take EQ's graphics and classes, mix it with any game world we want, and somebody could build a new world for a fraction of what it would cost to build a EQ Next or some really heavy duty WoW killer. If the content is good and the game playable and fun, it'll make money.
  #29  
Old 04-30-2012, 06:29 PM
mwatt mwatt is offline
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Originally Posted by envino [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Well, that's exactly my point. At some moment a bunch of suits walked into the room and said "we need more subscribers, your game is too hard, change it - make it more like wow or you're fired".
I typed a long post and blew it away with a mis-stroke at the kb. What follows will have to suffice, I am supposed to be working. Smed was the initial suit in the life of the game and still is. He never contributed to the creation directly and in the beginning that was all Brad and his team. After they left, Smed by default inherited the ability to control direction because he could pick and choose who got to drive.

He did chase WoW dollars, but not in a way that leveraged the strengths of his own game while doing away with some of the barriors to play that WoW succeeded in bringing down. He threw the baby out with the bath water. Why? Because he didn't and still DOESN'T understand what he had. EQ Next will be utter crap.
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  #30  
Old 05-10-2012, 10:06 AM
cameroncoolcarter cameroncoolcarter is offline
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Sad, sad, sad....
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