A reply to a thread in the Raid Discussion section.

[Morgander]

I really wanted to write a reply to a given post in the aforementioned section that's off limits to everyone but a select few, thus I'll do it here.

This is the section of the post in question that I wish to reply to. It was posted by Hyjal.

To completely change the direction of how the raid scene plays out just because a few people have decided to hold hands and influence these discussions undermines the efforts that have been made to make this server a classic Everquest experience. Nilbog, Rogean and the many other developers have done a wonderful job here. The population keeps growing for a reason, and yes it has affected our raiding scene, but this is not World of Warcraft although I think some of you want it to be.

And I wanted to reply to this because this kind of thinking is in itself, poisonous.

There seems to be some misdirection as per the thinking of only a single group of like-minded individuals who feel that Everquest's raid experience--for one reason or another--was somehow designed to be handled similarly to the way that said scene is handled on this server.

Now stop right there. That kind of thinking is far too bold by any light. I was a guide on the Povar server, and I played on Veeshan, the Tribunal, Morell Thule, and Firiona Vie, and on all of those servers save for maybe Veeshan because I didn't play there long enough before switching, the raid scene was nothing like it has ever been on P1999.

This mentality that because zones weren't instanced, or because mobs didn't lock to their initial target, or any such lack of a self-policing system is in no way a signifier that the developers ever even considered any type of "who's the best gets it", or even, "who gets there first gets it". This kind of competitive, brutish thinking is STRICTLY a single viewpoint, and does NOT reflect the game, period, at all, in any way, ever.

The mere notion is ludicrous. To even think for a moment--to even IMPLY for a moment that this is the case is to further invite ideologies that the developers also never intended for any forms of player conduct within the guidelines of the game.

I can assure you, that is not the case.

For this mentality to hold even a single solitary truth, one MUST also begin to accept that there then should be NO RULES, and EVERYTHING should be acceptable. ALL forms of behavior.

Kill stealing, training, ninja looting--these are just some of the things that thus must have been perfectly permissible in all contexts, because the code never accounted for these actions.

Even in the same game but in a different context, the same rules to some people, no longer seem to hold the same value. To the majority of people, the idea of honoring a camp is just part of the unofficial rules. You just honor the camps of your fellow players because it's the proper thing to do. It's socially expected of you, and even for those few who have no such respect, they still know that it's socially expected. They're just self-centered.

But change that to raiding, and so many people seem so eager to flip a switch to turn the entire social ramifications of sharing completely off. They begin to quantify this shifting in moral application with sentiments such as hard work should equate to just reward, or competition is the lifeblood of the game.

Or even worse and extremely off base: That Everquest was intended to be all about competition.

For those of you who did not play EQ from its inauguration in 1999, let me enlighten you a tad: EQ originally was nearly impossible in its initial throws when it came to mustering up a cohesive singular guild who had the manpower, class power, and ability to raid at all. Almost every single server I played on had MAYBE two guilds who could even clear the planes. On Morell Thule for example, NO guild could clear all of Sky, and it took weeks of failed Trak attempts before he was finally defeated.

It was intended that raid content would be inaccessible for a myriad of reasons, but not wholly on the basis that any one or even two guilds would have the power to defeat everything SO thoroughly that nobody else even had a chance.

No, EQ was never intended to be about throwing the cards out the window so that only the "victors" go the spoils--at least not in that regard. The world was kept free and open, free and open to allow the players the opportunity to make their own choices, just as we're given here in the US and in many democratic nations across the world.

Firearms are not illegal in this nation mind, but using them in many instances very much is, and this I would argue, is very much a good similarity.

We have the POTENTIAL to train. We CAN, as per the game's mechanics, kill steal and ninja loot, and on every server with almost no exception, developers and game masters have set up rulesets to ensure that players do not abuse these freedoms, BUT THEY DO EXIST!

I could go into detail about the nature of the magic circle concept and some such other game and virtual world concepts, but I've already said quite enough. I'd recommend looking up Richard Bartle if you're interested in some good concepts behind online world design and game theory.

In summery: This mentality that EQ is all about competition is player-made. If you want to make declaration that YOU want competition, do so with all my respect, but do not begin to assume that because you CAN compete, that EQ was always intended for strict competition for content.

It wasn't, and as a guide on live, I can tell you first-hand examples of when I or a GM had to step in and even FORCE people to share, even if it didn't directly violate a rule.

You PLAY NICE. Period. You play nice so that everyone can have fun. If your idea of fun is a form of competition that misplaces 80% of the population, then you're fun is jeopardizing too much of the majority, and unfortunately, I would always lean in the opposite direction, regardless of my personal feelings.

Just a note as well for sake of argument: I never said I was for or against the idea of competition, nor am I disputing the concept as per how fun I may or may not find it. I'm simply disputing that while EQ can be competitive, it also cannot be completely competitive, because that WILL destroy the game. In the same nature that allowing open kill stealing, ninja looting, and training would also destroy the game.

There is a very good reason why we have rules. Some rules anyway.

[Pint]

I didnt read your whole post bc it is very long, however I dont think that doljon's stance is that outrageous. They came here to play a competitive mmo, all or most of the "tier 2" guilds refused to compete on this server bc they did not feel that the raid scene was worth the amount of effort it required. With the new PnP situation and a few additional tweaks that have been offered like reduced variance, no alt army camping/socking, and pre determined/random simulated respawns most of the activity they did not want to participate in has/will be curbed. However now we are seeing that these guilds are not actually that interested in competing on the leveled playing field that they have been wanting for years, they now want opportunities to raid mobs without having to compete with the established raiding guilds on the server at all. They feel that they have waited long enough to deserve attempts at raid targets that are not also contested by the guilds that previously made the effort to obtain the mobs they wanted. This in my opinion is a poisonous attitude to take toward the classic everquest raid scene.

[Tann]

I didn't read either post but this should be in the raid discussion forum if its about raid related things and since both posts so far have been walls of text I will add my own.

USS Daiquiri (SP-1285) was a motorboat – one of a series of identical boats – planned and built by the U.S. Navy in the event they would be needed during World War I. Daiquiri was armed as a patrol craft and assigned to New England waterways under the cognizance of the 1st Naval District based at Kittery, Maine. She was sold when the war ended. Daiquiri, 62'4" motor boat, was constructed in 1917 at Bristol, Rhode Island, as Herreshoff Hull # 317. She was one of a group of identical craft built in the expectation that they would be needed by the Navy should the United States enter World War I. Purchased by the Navy in mid-September 1917, she was commissioned in early October as USS Daiquiri (SP-1285) and performed patrol service for the 1st Naval District in New England waters for the rest of the conflict. Inactivated in April 1919, the boat was sold in March 1920.

[Swish]

The OP needs to utilize "economy of expression" to get his point across. Forums are at the point where raiding discussion is becoming like communication between 2 lawyer offices...and isn't the easiest to read. Can someone sum it up in a sentence or two for me? [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[The Situation]

Doljon wants competition.

Doljon wiped to an uncontested Faydedar.

Let's think about that....

[Pint]

Originally Posted by The Situation [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doljon wants competition.

Doljon wiped to an uncontested Faydedar.

Let's think about that....

guild wipes to first attempt at real dragon, please tell us more.

[Pan]

In before the NEXT "I don't have the attention span to read" post.

Have a read. You'll be better for it.

[hynch]

I'm a casual scum and this is my 2 cents:

I think rotations are lame/boring/carebear. FFA raiding is classic. Alt armies are not classic. Take the old system, cut out the alt army crap, add in some simulated patch days and/or downtime, and that's how classic raiding was on Bristlebane.

[Tyym]

I was actually impressed despite the hard reading for my simple mind. But it made a lot of sense. So did Hynch's. I am sure FE and TMO could get rid of the alt armies and camping out near encounter locations, but our guilds still track and have experience mobilizing quickly. So if we agree to do nothing and keep everything as it has been with the aforementioned changes; how long will it take the T2 guilds to come up in arms because we are still killing more mobs than them? What will the next excuse be?

Morphius
Officer of Forceful Entry

[Ciroco]

Originally Posted by hynch [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Take the old system, cut out the alt army crap, add in some simulated patch days and/or downtime, and that's how classic raiding was on Bristlebane.

Except that there are several times as many raid capable players here.

I really hope the word "classic" goes the way of YOLO in these discussions. It's not a useful comparison.