Clarification (correctly posted)

[bktroost]

I'm sorry for my previous comment concerning Forsaken's 5 day suspension in response to a 7 day mob infraction. I realize that my previous concern was misplaced in the raid suspension thread and this led to the removal and locking of that thread. I completely understand not wanting an official declaration thread turning into a debate.

I also recognize that my question could have appeared as a negative critique of the staff's decision. I do not, in any way, want this understood as an attack. As a guild leader I have a responsibility to understand the litigation of this server better than anyone in my guild. How can I keep my people informed and on the right path if I don't understand the rules, punishments and PnP of the server?


So I repeat my question seeking Sirken's response (or another guild leader who has gone down this road and found this answer):
I would like some clarification on the relevancy behind a 5 day suspension in response to an infraction on a 7 day mob. To me, those things seem unrelated. Is there more to the scenario or is there a set of standards?

Thank you for your time and consideration.

[arsenalpow]

http://www.project1999.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=189856

At the very bottom you'll notice this clause:

Originally Posted by Sirken

A lot of you have questions as to crime & punishment; I hope to address that here:
The offending guild/party will have the loots removed (if they got the kill), and will be suspended from the target in question for the next 2 times that target is available to them. If any of the loot was already turned in for quests, the rewards will be deleted and nothing will be restored. In addition to that, any appropriate individual suspensions will also be applied (ie: suspended for training if caught training, etc). If a guild accumulates 5 raid suspensions, they will be suspended for “volume of infractions”, which starts at 5 days of full raid suspension across all targets, and increases by 1 day with each subsequent raid suspension. The staff strongly encourages players to concede/forfeit targets as soon as possible if they break a rule, and of course to also take a Screenshot of the concession/forfeiture, just in case another guild tries to say it never happened.

Forsaken is now in "volume of infractions" mode. So this suspension was for five days, the next infraction will result in a six day blanket suspension, then seven, etc etc

Five days doesn't seem like it makes sense in the scheme of things, but this is basically double secret probation.

[bktroost]

So my question is larger than the forsaken specific incident and maybe it should have been posed that way.

"Volume of Infractions" (capitalized as a proper noun because they are invoking it as a freestanding clause) in this case is a multitude of infractions related to 7 day mobs. I don't believe any of the infractions in this specific scenario involved a 3 day mob and certainly not more than half. Therefore, this scenario is committing them to a punishment that is at best effective for a minority of infractions and at worst effective for none of them.

If this ruling is effective for NONE of the "volume of infractions" then you can certainly see how important this is for us to bring up and understand what it means.

If we have guilds capable of committing infractions to such a volume that it warrants a general suspension and receiving no tangible punishment (and they can do this twice before actually receiving a relevant punishment) then that means that I, as a guild leader, am encouraged to consider this system as a "2-freebie cheat card"-- as long as none of my infractions involve 3-day mobs.

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by bktroost [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So my question is larger than the forsaken specific incident and maybe it should have been posed that way.

"Volume of Infractions" (capitalized as a proper noun because they are invoking it as a freestanding clause) in this case is a multitude of infractions related to 7 day mobs. None of the infractions in this clause involved a 3 day mob and certainly not more than half. Therefore, this scenario is committing them to a punishment that is at best effective for a minority of infractions and at worst effective for none of them.

If this ruling is effective for NONE of the "volume of infractions" then you can certainly see how important this is for us to bring up and understand what it means.

If we have guilds capable of committing infractions to such a volume that it warrents a general suspension and receiving no tangible punishment (and they can do this twice before actually receiving a relevant punishment) then that means that I, as a guild leader, am encouraged to consider this system as a "2-freebie cheat card"-- as long as none of them are on 3-day mobs.

Originally Posted by Sirken

If a guild accumulates 5 raid suspensions, they will be suspended for “volume of infractions”, which starts at 5 days of full raid suspension across all targets, and increases by 1 day with each subsequent raid suspension.

Again, I'm not speaking for Sirken, this is just how I understand it. The intent isn't to make the connection between infractions and upcoming spawns, as in you did XYZ and those spawns are in 3 days so the suspension needs to be long enough to cover that window blah blah blah, that's not what it's about. The intent is to demonstrate that they've accumulated enough infractions that they are now in permanent penalty mode. Their next infraction (if deemed infraction worthy by Sirken) results in a permanent 6 day blanket suspension, that's a pretty serious situation to be in.

Honestly, I'd rather just never have to deal with PetitionQuest/ForumQuest and Forsaken doesn't do anything that results in a suspension so this whole thing doesn't matter, but if Forsaken does something infraction worthy I hope that Sirken follows through with this line of punishment as promised.

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

but if Forsaken does something infraction worthy I hope that Sirken follows through with this line of punishment as promised.

Chest, I think I read that clause wrong originally. I read it to mean that the next time this "Volume of Infractions" clause was invoked it would be worth 6 days of general suspensions.

Your previous statement leads me to believe that you understand it to mean that once this clause is invoked then any singular infraction no longer qualifies a specific related "lockout" suspension, but rather invokes an incrementally scaling general suspension--based on the number of subsequent singular infractions.


So, real life comparison would be like breaking the law and being sent to jail. Then you were released after a period of time and put on a life long probation. Any singular infraction sends you back to jail for a longer period of time--even if under normal circumstances it wouldn't.

Am I understanding this correctly?

[arsenalpow]

Originally Posted by bktroost [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

So, real life comparison would be like breaking the law and being sent to jail. Then you were released after a period of time and put on a life long probation. Any singular infraction sends you back to jail for a longer period of time--even if under normal circumstances it wouldn't.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Correct, that is how I'm understanding it based on a convo I had with Sirken.

[bktroost]

Originally Posted by arsenalpow [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Correct, that is how I'm understanding it based on a convo I had with Sirken.

Ahh so instead of 2 freebie "sets" of infractions, it is 1 freebie set of infractions and 1 individual freebie infraction.

I think you've done a great job of explaining the rule to me; I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. I do think I understand the mechanics of the rule now. I do not understand how the infractions correlate to this intricate punishment system.

That question still stands to the guides and I think we've crossed the line passed what other guild leaders can bring to this discussion on rationale.

[Argh]

Rabble rabble

[jpetrick]

take 5 month break, come back, raid scene still a mess. good show everyone.

argh i'm glad you still play, let's hold hands in ec like old times.