What is BDA doing to work towards a raid agreement?

[Uteunayr]

Originally Posted by kotton05 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

you act like you don't want our playstyle or that our playstyle is so wrong, but you def batphoned vox tal draco all at varying hours from early early morning/mid day/late night. so don't act like you have some play style that's so unique and diff than us. FE did what they had to do to get pixels from TMO unlike most.

Doing what is necessary to see the content is not the same as aspiring to that style.

First off, yes, by and large, the majority of us do not want that play style. We join BDA because it is advertised and lives up to being a casual raiding guild.

Secondly, no, your playstyle is not wrong. I never said it was wrong. I said that it is not the play style we seek. There are two major differences between those two things. In one case, the first, I'd be saying that what you are doing is morally reprehensible. No, I am not saying that. You clearly enjoy the hardcore competition, the cutthroat behavior, and that's just fine. Some people like League of Legends, others don't. It doesn't make you right or wrong for liking something.

Third, I will state for a fact that many of us don't like this play style. You all may enjoy waking up at 3am while trying to get sleep for work, to drag yourself to your computer, and race for a mob. You all just might, and again (see above), that's fine. The rest of us don't. The others of us, the casuals of us do not enjoy doing that shit. That isn't the classic we seek. But that's the classic that is created when you have tyranny forcing their play style upon others on the server just to see content.

Lastly, do not make the fallacy of equating the fact that BDA has people who are willing to play your game, with BDA having people who want to play your game. The vast majority of people in BDA come to this game to have a lot of fun with a group of friends in a relaxed raiding environment. It is purely because of people like You, that we have to do shit like batphone, just so see the content. In return, we try to be as relaxed and and fun loving as possible given the requirement to do what hardcores do just to see the content.

So, please try to read what I have written, and understand the words, rather than lashing out. You are saying that just because we do what we are forced to do by your system that you force down our throats, that we want that system. That is not correct.

Originally Posted by BlkCamel [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If a guild wants to stay tier 2 or claim tier 2 status, all they have to do is stay out of VP, and not contest every raid mob on the server. The second you do either it is clear where you stand.

If BDA wants to be a tier 2 guild give them that chance, but remind them that this means they cannot compete on every mob. If they want to, then they accept their Tier 1 status.

I am not my guild leadership, by any means, but reading through the responses, and the proposals from my guild's leaders over the course of the negotiations, I do not think anyone was saying that you could go into VP and try to bring the casual playstyle with you. So, I do not think this qualifier is going to be difficult. If BDA decides that VP is something we want, and we decide we want to continue to play the shitshow of a raiding scene created by the top guilds for the sake of hardcore, cutthroat competition (which is fine for them, but a lot of others don't like, neither is right, these are opinions and feelings of fun we're talking about, not everyone enjoys the same stuff).

Originally Posted by Razdeline [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

But the ones that did think it was worth it broke off and formed FE. Your history is missing that fine detail [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

You weren't responding to me, but I am taking this quote to point out that, again, those people had a different conception of what is fun, and what they wanted to do with their time in the game to build their classic experience. That's fine, but not everyone thinks the same way. This is the issue that comes up between our guilds so much, because FE members or leaders (I truly do not know who is who without a tag in their signature) seem to want everyone to compete, everyone to play their style of hardcore competition, whereas not everyone wants to do that.

That is why I fully supported Rogean's Plan. Not only because there exist years of scientific research that are applicable to these types of situations, and that Rogean's is one of the strongest forms for a lasting resolution of conflict, but that it lets each side do what they want with their share of the toys, and balance is preserved so long as neither side gets more greedy. Let each play the way they want, all month long, rather than playing the way they want, only for the first week, or first two weeks, or what have you. That way, each side plays the game they want, relives their classic experience, and never has to delve into the other style's atmosphere. It is, with certainly, what will bring about conflict. The current resolution and agreement is a great step, but it still has casuals playing the hardcore game for a hefty portion of the month, and this will not, and there is absolutely no scientific or logical reason to think it will, create lasting reduction in conflict between guilds.

[radditsu]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doing what is necessary to see the content is not the same as aspiring to that style.

First off, yes, by and large, the majority of us do not want that play style. We join BDA because it is advertised and lives up to being a casual raiding guild.

Secondly, no, your playstyle is not wrong. I never said it was wrong. I said that it is not the play style we seek. There are two major differences between those two things. In one case, the first, I'd be saying that what you are doing is morally reprehensible. No, I am not saying that. You clearly enjoy the hardcore competition, the cutthroat behavior, and that's just fine. Some people like League of Legends, others don't. It doesn't make you right or wrong for liking something.

Third, I will state for a fact that many of us don't like this play style. You all may enjoy waking up at 3am while trying to get sleep for work, to drag yourself to your computer, and race for a mob. You all just might, and again (see above), that's fine. The rest of us don't. The others of us, the casuals of us do not enjoy doing that shit. That isn't the classic we seek. But that's the classic that is created when you have tyranny forcing their play style upon others on the server just to see content.

Lastly, do not make the fallacy of equating the fact that BDA has people who are willing to play your game, with BDA having people who want to play your game. The vast majority of people in BDA come to this game to have a lot of fun with a group of friends in a relaxed raiding environment. It is purely because of people like You, that we have to do shit like batphone, just so see the content. In return, we try to be as relaxed and and fun loving as possible given the requirement to do what hardcores do just to see the content.

So, please try to read what I have written, and understand the words, rather than lashing out. You are saying that just because we do what we are forced to do by your system that you force down our throats, that we want that system. That is not correct.



I am not my guild leadership, by any means, but reading through the responses, and the proposals from my guild's leaders over the course of the negotiations, I do not think anyone was saying that you could go into VP and try to bring the casual playstyle with you. So, I do not think this qualifier is going to be difficult. If BDA decides that VP is something we want, and we decide we want to continue to play the shitshow of a raiding scene created by the top guilds for the sake of hardcore, cutthroat competition (which is fine for them, but a lot of others don't like, neither is right, these are opinions and feelings of fun we're talking about, not everyone enjoys the same stuff).



You weren't responding to me, but I am taking this quote to point out that, again, those people had a different conception of what is fun, and what they wanted to do with their time in the game to build their classic experience. That's fine, but not everyone thinks the same way. This is the issue that comes up between our guilds so much, because FE members or leaders (I truly do not know who is who without a tag in their signature) seem to want everyone to compete, everyone to play their style of hardcore competition, whereas not everyone wants to do that.

That is why I fully supported Rogean's Plan. Not only because there exist years of scientific research that are applicable to these types of situations, and that Rogean's is one of the strongest forms for a lasting resolution of conflict, but that it lets each side do what they want with their share of the toys, and balance is preserved so long as neither side gets more greedy. Let each play the way they want, all month long, rather than playing the way they want, only for the first week, or first two weeks, or what have you. That way, each side plays the game they want, relives their classic experience, and never has to delve into the other style's atmosphere. It is, with certainly, what will bring about conflict. The current resolution and agreement is a great step, but it still has casuals playing the hardcore game for a hefty portion of the month, and this will not, and there is absolutely no scientific or logical reason to think it will, create lasting reduction in conflict between guilds.

Hah saw the sig, you need to admit they were LONG sentences!

Also you have typed roughly 100k words on this subject. It was finally time to bust the chops of this young lawyer.


We live in the twitterverse, deal

[Gnomersy]

Couple guilds shit the server up, in response the GMs give them more merbs!!!!! Eeeerrrmmmaaaggghheeerd. Time for a changing of the guard with the CSR staff. You cater to the 15% I'd imagine mostly because they donate. If that's the case call a spade a spade "deruken" and tell us you are catering to the people that financially support the server. That way we at least know this is a pay to win server.

Status quo unflinching.

Thank you to Div/taken/Ateam and the other guilds not part of the inner circle for trying to unseat hitler and Stalin.

Come up with a plan together they said, we'll enforce it they said. Hehe nvm "The staff"( read FE) came up with an awesome plan and YOU ARE GONNA LIKE IT damnit. Oh we hedged with the "ongoing talks" farce too.

[Razdeline]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Doing what is necessary to see the content is not the same as aspiring to that style.

First off, yes, by and large, the majority of us do not want that play style. We join BDA because it is advertised and lives up to being a casual raiding guild.

Secondly, no, your playstyle is not wrong. I never said it was wrong. I said that it is not the play style we seek. There are two major differences between those two things. In one case, the first, I'd be saying that what you are doing is morally reprehensible. No, I am not saying that. You clearly enjoy the hardcore competition, the cutthroat behavior, and that's just fine. Some people like League of Legends, others don't. It doesn't make you right or wrong for liking something.

Third, I will state for a fact that many of us don't like this play style. You all may enjoy waking up at 3am while trying to get sleep for work, to drag yourself to your computer, and race for a mob. You all just might, and again (see above), that's fine. The rest of us don't. The others of us, the casuals of us do not enjoy doing that shit. That isn't the classic we seek. But that's the classic that is created when you have tyranny forcing their play style upon others on the server just to see content.

Lastly, do not make the fallacy of equating the fact that BDA has people who are willing to play your game, with BDA having people who want to play your game. The vast majority of people in BDA come to this game to have a lot of fun with a group of friends in a relaxed raiding environment. It is purely because of people like You, that we have to do shit like batphone, just so see the content. In return, we try to be as relaxed and and fun loving as possible given the requirement to do what hardcores do just to see the content.

So, please try to read what I have written, and understand the words, rather than lashing out. You are saying that just because we do what we are forced to do by your system that you force down our throats, that we want that system. That is not correct.



I am not my guild leadership, by any means, but reading through the responses, and the proposals from my guild's leaders over the course of the negotiations, I do not think anyone was saying that you could go into VP and try to bring the casual playstyle with you. So, I do not think this qualifier is going to be difficult. If BDA decides that VP is something we want, and we decide we want to continue to play the shitshow of a raiding scene created by the top guilds for the sake of hardcore, cutthroat competition (which is fine for them, but a lot of others don't like, neither is right, these are opinions and feelings of fun we're talking about, not everyone enjoys the same stuff).



You weren't responding to me, but I am taking this quote to point out that, again, those people had a different conception of what is fun, and what they wanted to do with their time in the game to build their classic experience. That's fine, but not everyone thinks the same way. This is the issue that comes up between our guilds so much, because FE members or leaders (I truly do not know who is who without a tag in their signature) seem to want everyone to compete, everyone to play their style of hardcore competition, whereas not everyone wants to do that.

That is why I fully supported Rogean's Plan. Not only because there exist years of scientific research that are applicable to these types of situations, and that Rogean's is one of the strongest forms for a lasting resolution of conflict, but that it lets each side do what they want with their share of the toys, and balance is preserved so long as neither side gets more greedy. Let each play the way they want, all month long, rather than playing the way they want, only for the first week, or first two weeks, or what have you. That way, each side plays the game they want, relives their classic experience, and never has to delve into the other style's atmosphere. It is, with certainly, what will bring about conflict. The current resolution and agreement is a great step, but it still has casuals playing the hardcore game for a hefty portion of the month, and this will not, and there is absolutely no scientific or logical reason to think it will, create lasting reduction in conflict between guilds.

My point is that not everyone in BDA or any non-hardcore guild wants to settle for the "Status Quo". Some of those members want to raid more often, and by doing so there are only a few choices. Join IB/FE/TMO. People from the "lower tier" guilds have, and will continue to leave for a more profound raid scene. This is something that has happened from the beginning of time in MMO's.

Now the more interesting thing is, people that typically leave lower tier raid guilds for guilds such as IB/TMO/FE rarely ever return to their lower tier raiding.

[uygi]

Originally Posted by Man0warr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

This also seems to be the reason TMO/FE don't want to let the Tier 2 people have any rotation on Trak/Inny/VS/CT - they would lose their biggest source of income.

TMO has made massive amounts of cash from epic MQs, although it seems/seemed to me like there were only a lot of them sold back when TMO got 95-100% of mobs. Once the loot pie got sliced by FE I didn't see nearly so many epics sold... do remember that both guilds still need at least some epics for their members. Also, both TMO and FE reimburse their members for raid expenses like portstones, EEs and peridots, financed through guildbank sales.

Also, AFAIK FE has sold just one epic MQ, a Maestro hand.

Another note... I think having at least some epics be sold as MQs gives epic access to people that couldn't get them otherwise. If the raid scene is going to open up and more people will have access to these drops (than before!), that should hopefully cut down on the people that NEED to buy them; many will get them free when they wait their turn, others could choose to buy them.

[Droog007]

Originally Posted by Uteunayr [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

What's the fear here? What's the problem? Are hardcore/tier 1 raiders afraid that their environment isn't welcoming enough or appealing enough to players that they will be able to sustain their own playstyle independent of doing it on the backs of putting down casual guilds? Are they fearful that people will see casual competition, or casual rotation, and see that as a far better alternative to cutthroat competition, and refuse to be a part of their hardcore cutthroat style?

^ This ^

Hardcores have lost their exclusivity, which I believe so many of them thrived on... I predict that many of them will get bored and move on now that casual scum will be able to get their hands on much of the same coveted loot that used to immediately identify them as being among the elite. Maybe Velious will come in time, maybe it won't ...

There's also a high road now; one that doesn't lead the kinder, gentler guilds into their ugly trap of rampant asshattery.

<narrowly resists quoting Stairway to Heaven>

[sanluen]

So many words in this thread.

[Blink]

I hate Chest for making me agree with TMO for the first time in my life.

[Blink]

Fun fact: FE was formed because of Chest's inability to compromise.

Kinda funny to see it yet again.

[Hitpoint]

Originally Posted by Droog007 [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

^ This ^

Hardcores have lost their exclusivity, which I believe so many of them thrived on... I predict that many of them will get bored and move on now that casual scum will be able to get their hands on much of the same coveted loot that used to immediately identify them as being among the elite. Maybe Velious will come in time, maybe it won't ...

There's also a high road now; one that doesn't lead the kinder, gentler guilds into their ugly trap of rampant asshattery.

<narrowly resists quoting Stairway to Heaven>

Why are no hardcores complaining about the new deal then? While basically every bda member is.