Spells: Shaman DoTs Not Stacking Correctly

[Dfn]

All Shaman DoTs stacked. Confirmed.

[Castle]

Originally Posted by DarthPeon [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

(1)While you provide decent evidence of Blart suggesting shaman dot stacking in a post circa 2002 that (2)does not negate the fact that these same exact spells did not stack when a necro cast them. The spell IDs are the same in the code, yet coming out of the shaman they somehow magically stack as opposed to coming out of the Necro? This matter can be resolved by current devs with access to spell files showing if this feature can be custom flipped on and off on the same Spell ID - without creating two separate Plague spells (for example) on a Necro and Shaman. Separate versions of the spells in question did not exist.

(1) The earliest copy of the post is from 2002, but clearly shows it is no later than mid 2001 being all the info exclusively 1-60/Vanilla-Velious content. We don't have original autographs of many documents, but the content of manuscripts are the most accurate way to predict an accurate date of the original autograph. Clearly this was Pre-Luclin.

(2)This is untrue. Necros using Shaman DoTs stacked. It wasn't based on class, it was based on the DoT. Necros could stack Venom of the Snake and Ebolt just like Shamans could. There was no magic modifier that Shamans had, simply their DoTs were coded to stack. Beastlords could stack em and so could Necros. If you disagree, provide proof.

Further more, dot messages wearing off did not come until much later and that means people were unaware their higher level dots were over writing their lower level dots, they assumed as much because both spells landed. Yes there could very well be that many bad players that you quoted out of the ~500k that ended up playing.

False. See quote.

http://web.archive.org/web/200203050...ll.asp?Id=1184

DOTS, By Scratchen (1/28/2001)

When I started EQ I played an Enchanter and use to cast thier DOT (Damage over Time) spell over and over thinking that it worked like a DD (Direct Damage). Now EQ has a message that indicates when the spell wears off, but along with these messages came a nerf. DOTS require that the subject be still in order to have the full effect.

Moving on...

Originally Posted by DarthPeon

1) We have an official everquest dev post stating inferior dots do not stack with superior dots (the word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point).

2) We are in agreement that necro/druid dots of the same line do not stack.

3) And I hope we are in agreement that even notable players or experts throughout history can be at wrong, regardless of the subject.

1) This was in relation to "lines" of DoTs. Shaman DoTs are not mentioned. Shamans have been logically proven to not have lines. One vague quote cannot disprove mounds of unbiased evidence.

2)Yes, the lines specific to their class did not stack (ie: multiple from same "line")

3) See above where wearing off messages are in. People would clearly see. You fight 100 mobs to get 1 level, 1000ish to get 10 from 39-50. If what you're saying is true, 1,000 times their first DoT wore off and they got a message right when their other one landed, and they didn't notice?? It's not only how many people say this is true, but how little evidence can be found against this. This troll shammy was legit and one guy from Casters Realm posted detailed HP amounts and calculated their HP based on his DoTs. Obviously they knew their stuff. CHA is an entirely different subject because you cannot see the effects of things, so obviously without a parser or a packet sniffer you simple cannot really tell what CHA is doing. "Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off." Anyone can see that and put 2 and 2 together. To compare CHA with this is apples and oranges, my friend.

If the same spell ID is used for two separate classes, I predict any change to the spell would immediately show up on both classes due to the way the code works. If so, this negates the fact that Necros could not stack but yet shaman somehow could. Or else separate spell IDs of the same exact would have been required - essentially creating two new spells of the same name.

It is spell specific, not class specific. Not to sound like a broken record because I said it earlier, but whether a SHM, BST, or NEC cast a spell from the Shamans pool of spells, it would stack. There wasn't some special class modifier, that's not how it worked.

I am for classic on this issue. Nothing more, nothing less.

Agree. Are you starting to see that this was classic?

[valithteezee]

Castle has put in a lot of work for this cause and pretty much derailed any conflicting information. I hope in the next major patch we can start to see some of these changes implemented.

[Castle]

On the Beta server I tested and validated the numbers from a source I linked. It is shockingly accurate. I show through simple observation at the end he was clearly stacking DoTs, or he would have had different numbers. In other words, INC Haymaker 2.0.. 1.0 was already a knockout, 2.0 is just for show.

http://web.archive.org/web/200201131...Id=1141&Page=2

WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

I tested these numbers and here is what I found.

First, I checked the spell damage. His spell damage numbers are exact except you can tell he rounded the 1s place so his numbers above have 0s (ex: 219=220.)

Secondly, and more importantly I tested (on the Beta server) his exact strategy on the exact mobs he camped. I had to wait between DoTs because they aren't stacking correctly currently, so it took longer, but damage was the same.

Test 1 -- Target: Balen Kalgun -- Location: BB Docks
Pull with Scourge. Root. With with VoS. Waited for VoS to wear off. Hit with Ebreath. Waited for Ebreath to wear off. His with Final VoS. Mob just barely died I think on the last tic of VoS. Exactly as he predicted.
Pictures one, two, three & four

Test 2 -- Target: Thar Kelgand -- Location: BB Docks
Same strategy as above. Same result as above. This dude knew his stuff. Changed UI to make it clearer and got it in 2 screenshots: one & two

Test 3: -- Target: Magnus Boran -- Location: BB Docks
Since he said "With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg" I tested it without EB to see how much the mob had left. 8% and it took 2 DDs for 82 dmg (162dmg) to kill the mob... The guy was dead on.
Pictures: one & two

Proof is in the pudding lads. On my 2nd 80dmg blast to finish off the final 150 dmg this guy mentions.

[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

If you're a little slow you may be thinking at this point "so what, what does that prove besides he knew their HP?" Well, he only knew their HP because he stacked the DoTs. If the EBreath didn't stack with VoS the mobs would still have 150hp left whether he decided to cast it while VoS was active or to not cast it all. However, as he states, that was not the case. The mobs only had 150hp left if he didn't stack Ebreath with VoS. In classic and even now IIRC these mobs were always level 35, they always spawned with the same hp; it's the perfect constant for an experiment like this.

In my test I used the spells he said and they had the same result, except I couldn't stack them because the Devs haven't fixed it yet. He's obviously stacking multiple poison DoTs according to his description. He makes no mention of waiting inbetween Scourge and VoS, or VoS and Ebreath, only to wait 42 seconds for the 2nd VoS (which is how long the 1st VoS takes to run its course.) Once again if that Ebreath didn't stack.. there'd still be about 150hp left on the mobs. Life mob versus dead mob = pretty easy to discern the difference, bros.

It's quite simple, but I recommend slow people read that again. There you have it, another proof justified.

It's overwhelmingly clear. When you fixing this, Devs?

[DarthPeon]

Originally Posted by valithteezee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Castle has put in a lot of work for this cause and pretty much derailed any conflicting information. I hope in the next major patch we can start to see some of these changes implemented.

Castle has derailed Jack and Shit, not to be mistaken for Jackshit which actually stacks.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Are you starting to see that this was classic?

No, but I am getting bored with your creative interpretations of Everquest developer statements, what does or does not constitute a "line", and your slew of inexperienced posts as evidence. At this point you are merely putting spin on my statements and backtracking with implied things such as "Necro dots also stacked toooooo, I really mean it." - After I showed you that they share the same spell ID and the Necro casts of those same spells never stacked.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

DOTS, By Scratchen (1/28/2001)

When I started EQ I played an Enchanter and use to cast thier DOT (Damage over Time) spell over and over thinking that it worked like a DD (Direct Damage). Now EQ has a message that indicates when the spell wears off...

False. See above quote.

http://web.archive.org/web/200203050...ll.asp?Id=1184

I saw the quote, and below you will find the exact date this feature went in. You cited a retard and have been touting similar examples of evidence as the gospel to prove the dot stacked, congratulations. If Smedy was here, he would most certainly Praise Jesus.

Patch Date 4/17/2001 03:00 AM

- You will now see how much damage your character has taken when he is hit by a spell that causes instant damage (DOT damage is not reported).

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2001-1.html

DoT information in regards to when it wore off was simply not reported correctly until less than a month prior to PoP release.

Patch Date 9/16/2002

- The "Your XXX Spell Has Worn Off" messages for DoT spells will now go
to the right character.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2002-2.html

And still at this point there was zero information about how much damage a dot did. Good players relied on counting letters in NPC names and similar variations to calculate damage needed prior to information being available.

Finally - DoT reporting became fully functional as you know it today.

Patch Date 6/11/2003

- Reporting Damage Over Time - Damage over Time (DoT) will now be reported to the caster every time it does damage. These messages can be filtered in the Options window.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2003-1.html

The progression of patch notes above details the inexperience of your sources - thus undermining your challenge to the most important patch note outlining the only definitive dot stacking rule we have and specifically stating

Patch Date Sept 4th, 2002

An example was given to show that on this date in Luclin, same dots began to stack by multiple casters - with the addendum below.

"However Inferior dots still do not stack with superior dots."

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2002-2.html

The word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction it was not a feature taken away at that point. (Valithteezee) Read the exact wording from the notes and let it sink in.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Moving on...

1) This was in relation to "lines" of DoTs. Shaman DoTs are not mentioned. Shamans have been logically proven to not have lines. One vague quote cannot disprove mounds of unbiased evidence.

2)Yes, the lines specific to their class did not stack (ie: multiple from same "line")

3) See above where wearing off messages are in. People would clearly see. You fight 100 mobs to get 1 level, 1000ish to get 10 from 39-50. If what you're saying is true, 1,000 times their first DoT wore off and they got a message right when their other one landed, and they didn't notice?? It's not only how many people say this is true, but how little evidence can be found against this. This troll shammy was legit and one guy from Casters Realm posted detailed HP amounts and calculated their HP based on his DoTs. Obviously they knew their stuff. CHA is an entirely different subject because you cannot see the effects of things, so obviously without a parser or a packet sniffer you simple cannot really tell what CHA is doing. "Your Envenomed Bolt spell has worn off." Anyone can see that and put 2 and 2 together. To compare CHA with this is apples and oranges, my friend.

It is spell specific, not class specific. Not to sound like a broken record because I said it earlier, but whether a SHM, BST, or NEC cast a spell from the Shamans pool of spells, it would stack. There wasn't some special class modifier, that's not how it worked.

1) More creative interpretation at play and bullshit about what constitutes a line and what does not. You would still take issue with the original devs even if they included every dot spell in the spell files and spelled it out for you.

"This does not allow for inferior DoT spells to stack along with superior spells." -Original EQ dev

2) See number one. If you didn't have a creative interpretation for "lines" of spells and how they apply to the patch notes this would not be an issue.

3) Even by your generous mid 2001 standards, Blart's post is written about classic everquest pvp over 5 months after velious release. Blart attempted to recreate a classic guide about an era few understood how stuff exactly worked. He was certainly not receiving any feedback in response to his dot casts from the server and neither were his opponents. Given the nature of an item loot pvp server, you can deduct that he did not have the luxury to ask for damage parses and critical feedback while he stole some kid's shoes. The man is not infallible and his memory may have failed him.

Blart even states in his post:

"This is a draft. Any corrections would be greatly appreciated!"

Furthermore the quality of the Castersrealm posters that you rely on so heavily as evidence are highlighted in the glorious pvp tactics section of various classes. Go ahead, I urge you to read some of those posts and have a laugh.

Originally Posted by Castle [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

WHY EB TILL 49???, By Nuuk warchyld (the sacred) rodcet nife (1/28/2001)

Mobs that are level 35 or so like, Dorfs, Ein, Guards etc.. have roughly 1700 hit points. Therefore after level 39 (Venom of Snake) an efficient mana way of killing these mobs is as follows: Lure with Scourge (550dmg), VoS(460dmg), EB(220dmg), ROOT, VoS(460dmg) after 42 seconds. Root to keep mob still to get full dmg from dots in. With out EB you would come up short about 150 dmg therefore having to waste mana on a blast that could get resisted or VoS which takes more mana than EB. With this series of spells you can get right till level 48 killing those mobs with minimal mana loss and downtime. and dont forget to med while waiting for mobs to die. I have used this method on dorfs and lose only 1 bubble of mana per mob i kill. I keep just ahead of 5 dorfs at a time. thats roughly a dorf ever 4 mins with almost no down time since i med between dots not fights. Try it it works great!

http://web.archive.org/web/200201131...Id=1141&Page=2

If you're a little slow you may be thinking at this point "so what, what does that prove besides he knew their HP?" Well, he only knew their HP because he stacked the DoTs. If the EBreath didn't stack with VoS the mobs would still have 150hp left whether he decided to cast it while VoS was active or to not cast it all. However, as he states, that was not the case. The mobs only had 150hp left if he didn't stack Ebreath with VoS. In classic and even now IIRC these mobs were always level 35, they always spawned with the same hp; it's the perfect constant for an experiment like this.

The only person slow here is you. You're reaching now to include selective testing. I just performed a simple addition test as well with the countless showeq spawn and spell databases available since early krunark - though don't get confused that has no bearing on stacking.

You could have easily casted the EBreath as well in your bullshit tests and replicated his instructions between the two VoS casts, you have merely spun his post out of context. At no point does he mention he stacked the spells. The guy you quoted is simply giving you an efficient cast formula so you don't waste mana on a higher strength dot or nuke - because he has tested it through trial and error and utilized an egg timer - like most people in the know during this period. I'm thinking timestamps were also available by velious.

The only definitive thing he states is that it took roughly 4 mins per Dwarf. Let me add something for you scrub - Scourge (2.1 mins) + VoS (42 seconds) + EBreath (42 Seconds) + VoS (42 seconds) = 4 mins 12 seconds. That equates to "roughly every 4 mins."

The guy states he is going for a no downtime mana conservation plan and that is why he is casting the Ebreath over a nuke - because he has experimented with the spawn times and understands with this cast formula he is just on top of all dwarf spawns. The issue of stack does not change the outcome here once again.

To summarize, the lack of information in conjunction with the patch dates I posted outlining all dot changes provides ample support upholding the dev post that the dots in question here did not stack.

Castle, consider this my last response to you and good luck with your petition. You're trolling for attention at this point.

[valithteezee]

"Inferior dots do not stack with superior dots."

Darkpeon, do you think it's more logical to assume that shaman's rolled around for over 3 years casting superior dots + inferior dots and did not notice the damage was stacking?

OR

That the damage actually was stacking and was used as an efficient means of PVE and PVP combat for over 3 years- as CONFIRMED by numerous people.

Anyways, the entire base of your argument is rooted in patch notes from July 24, 2002.

The Ruins of Kunark (April 2000)
The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)

Patch on July 24, 2002.; 8 months after Luclin was released.

The Planes of Power (October 2002)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a CLASSIC experience? That means game mechanics should remain classic up until a point in time where an expansion changes things.

KEEP IT CLASSIC

[skorge]

unfortunately Castle is wrong, shaman could only stack one dot of each type, disease & poison, in classic. How do i know this? I actually PLAYED a shaman in classic. Can't get any stronger proof than that.

/end thread

[DarthPeon]

Originally Posted by valithteezee [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Darkpeon, do you think it's more logical to assume that shaman's rolled around for over 3 years casting superior dots + inferior dots and did not notice the damage was stacking?

OR

That the damage actually was stacking and was used as an efficient means of PVE and PVP combat for over 3 years- as CONFIRMED by numerous people.

Anyways, the entire base of your argument is rooted in patch notes from July 24, 2002.

The Ruins of Kunark (April 2000)
The Scars of Velious (December 2000)
The Shadows of Luclin (December 2001)

Patch on July 24, 2002.; 8 months after Luclin was released.

The Planes of Power (October 2002)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a CLASSIC experience? That means game mechanics should remain classic up until a point in time where an expansion changes things.

KEEP IT CLASSIC

The amusing thing is you started this thread topic on the pvp forums and yet your reading comprehension is unfortunately not even on par with Castle. You missed the boat entirely - He at least understands this point below, and is arguing for something entirely different.

Regardless of where you stand on the issue - Dot stacking was never removed in this Luclin patch. One side is claiming it was in classic for Shaman "only", the other is proving that it was not the case.

Patch Date Sept 4th, 2002

We've made two changes to the way spells stack.

Damage Over Time (DoT) spells are spells that linger on the target
doing damage. Until today two different characters could not have the
same DoT spell on the same target. As long as one copy of the spell was
active any new version of the spell would not take hold. After today
the same DoT spell cast by different casters can affect the same target
at the same time. Also, if you cast a DoT spell on a target and you
already have that spell active on it, the spell will refresh. (Note: It
will not be possible to stack Lifeburn).

This however still does not allow for inferior spells to stack along with superior
spells. (Example: Two Necromancers can both land Boil Blood on the same
target. However, Heat Blood, being an inferior spell, will still not
stack.)

Full patch notes below

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/hist...es-2002-2.html

Read the exact wording from the notes and let it sink in.

The example that you misinterpreted was given to show that on this date in Luclin, same dots began to stack by multiple casters and the total dot/debuff limit was raised beyond 15.

The word "still" can be interpreted and coaxed out from the patch notes since by deduction dot stacking of lower/higher dots was not a feature taken away at that point.

Valitheezee, consider this my last response to you and good luck with your petition as well.

[valithteezee]

Lol, you are taking the patch notes from 2002 like they were passed down from Moses and it's unconvincing evidence at best. Yet, you can not give a single source from that era that states Shaman's(not necro's/druids) could not stack scourge/plague or ebolt/Vos. However, the overwhelming majority of Shaman players have confirmed it did stack.

Doesn't really matter at this point since we're beating a dead horse. Appreciate the feedback in any case.

[bionicbadger]

Originally Posted by skorge [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

unfortunately Castle is wrong, shaman could only stack one dot of each type, disease & poison, in classic. How do i know this? I actually PLAYED a shaman in classic. Can't get any stronger proof than that.

/end thread

I played a shaman in classic too, beta 3 - luclin. And the different level DoTs did stack. It would have been much harder to solo shit if they didn't stack.