Game Mechanics: AC/Level Mitigation & Backstabs

[Aadill]

Oh here we go, I found the "it":

http://goberserker.com/forums/archiv...hp?t-1576.html

fatbuk's post, right near the bottom of the page:

There are some obvious exceptions. Like rogues get double backstab at 55 and then have their min backstab jump from like 88 to 125 when they hit 60.

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Currently it looks like this
Level ratio damage Rounded Down
59__ 1.5__ 88.5... 88
60__ 2___ 120... 120

That's pretty close to matching.


Also as noted in an earlier post about the MASSIVE advantage of being level 60:

Similarly at one point a 59 wizard was absolutely useless compared to a 60 wizard with sunstrike, ice spear of solist, and all the good level 60 spells. But for the most part the class defining strenghts and weaknesses scale down nicely.



I think the backstab woes still stem from skill dependency as well as the possibility of AC values. Not only that, but any help in the form of parses given thus far have not been replicated due to a lack of data/cohesion.... also a lack of a test server (it's currently down, according to Uthgaard). I'd recommend going back and getting all the necessary information to be recreated or have a rogue from here get copied to the test server to be used. From there tuning can be adjusted by focusing on the BASE DAMAGE calculations for backstab using the backstab multipliers, level 60, and max STR. I would expect to find something totally different than what Kanras is seeing simply because it's using "real world" equipment and stats, not laboratory-created characters.

[Treats]

The only problem with Rogue backstab at the moment is the percentage you hit for minimum damage versus the percentage you hit for magic number damage. Based off the logs in this thread those parses should be something you would see from Trakanon/VP mobs that are 60+.

I just pulled this out of my ass but I look forward to leveling just so my DPS goes up by a few points even though my gear hasn't changed much since level 50. I use the gobby earring as a serious buff because I worry my ATK, which can reach about 1200, isn't high enough and is the sole reason why my DPS is shit. In reality I'm starting to wonder if the skills are what's causing issues for melee.

This is exactly how it should work. Posted this earlier in the thread. The component that has the largest alteration of hit distribution is Mob level versus Player level. The next is Attack. I am unsure how much less Attack plays a part in it though.

Another note here on hit distribution. Different classes have different percentages that all range between the three main numbers - Minimum damage, Magic Number, and Maximum damage. What was done back then was to use this for each one.

These are just made up percentages, they are not correct. For example, say you have a Monk that is level 60 and fighting a low dark blue (46). His hit distribution may look something like this:

30% Min, 60% Magic Number, 10% Max

Replace that dark blue mob with Trakanon and you would have an entirely different distribution:

75% Min, 20% Magic Number, 5% Max

Different classes have different spreads representing the damage tables also.

Monk vs Dark Blue mob (46)

30% Min, 60% Magic, 10% Max

Ranger vs Dark Blue mob (46)

45% Min, 55% Magic, 5% Max

Several factors affect these calculations - Player level, Player class, Attack, Mob Level, Mob AC etc.

[Fleury_P99]

Any word on this being changed Kanras?

[dojo420]

I was about to post the same link as Aadill. What I got from it is that Backstab is just another melee attack with a modified weapon damage value.

Doesn't this mean it should have the same damage distribution as regular attacks? I am at work and don't have a log available to me to compare regular melee with backstab damage distribution.

With a cap on the minimum damage and low damage piercers it now makes kind of sense to have a higher percentage of minimum damage backstabs with a 10 vs a 15 dmg piercer (not sure how to explain: a bigger part of the graph gets set to minimum damage the closer it is to that number). Before I always thought of backstab as an attack with seperate rules from regular melee. So now I am just wondering if they are infact treated the same in regards to atk & ac here on p99.

Nothing on minimum damage 52-59 though.

edit:
another link that might be interesting:
How is backstab calculated?
specifically: http://www.brogett.plus.com/backstab_formula.pdf
While not the exact formula and way after our timeframe maybe someone can get some info from here.

[Aadill]

I went through that post and pdf and decided a lot of it was whining about non rogues getting piercers... dear lord it is horrible. The pdf, however, does have a lot of data. The only problem is he admits he skews the data on both ends "to make it fit." The important thing is the obvious 1-20 rolls, the significant part of this post is here:

1) PC_DAM_BONUS=1, with ATK_ROLL from 1 to 20. This covers the left and central
spikes. The distribution extends from <=290 (clipped) to 538 in this plot.
2) PC_DAM_BONUS=3.55, with ATK_ROLL from 1 to 20. This is the cause of the high spike to the right (ATK_ROLL=20) and the other 19 smaller spikes inbetween the left and right edges.
3) 1 < PC_DAM_BONUS < 3.55. These cause a whole background of hit values. However because ATK_ROLL=20 is more common than the others (as can be seen by the right hand
spike being the highest) we therefore also have 255 values in this background that are higher than the rest


It seems we aren't seeing ATK_ROLL=20 as much, or even 17 18 or 19. The distribution seems skewed towards the low end instead, and not just for backstab either. Should it be possible to hit for 2 at level 57?*


*On mobs with high enough AC I would expect low hits a lot but the DMG bonus isn't even being added or is being mitigated after the fact.

[Arkyani]

Here is some more depressing proof.. Using both a SCD and Crystalline Spear, still insane number of minimum damage even if using a higher damage piercer.

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[Arkyani]

So I cleared my log before crypt group and parsed again.. same result if not worse..

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[Shiftin]

Aadill, thanks for that link about the gap between 59 and 60.

Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

The only problem with Rogue backstab at the moment is the percentage you hit for minimum damage versus the percentage you hit for magic number damage. Based off the logs in this thread those parses should be something you would see from Trakanon/VP mobs that are 60+.

I thought we had established in a prior post that you shouldn't be able to min backstab with duelist on. Currently it is still possible to min backstab with duelist. I don't know if this counts as a backstab or duelist issue, but it seems like one of them.

The lucy description of duelist is:
1: Increase All Skills Damage Modifier by 100%
2: Increase All Skills Minimum Damage Modifier by 400%

So it should both double the max you can hit for and 4x the minimum for "all skills". Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist. Should it be?

[Aadill]

Originally Posted by Shiftin [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Backstab is currently not being pulled in as a skill per duelist.

I've noticed that even with double damage shots in archery the damage is still the normal minimum (19 dmg min with a double is still 19 dmg min) so it's a widespread issue. Might need a separate bug report since this bug report here has gone through three different issues at this point.

[Baxter]

So many problems with rogues its hard to keep them all straight! Broken BS, broken duelist, broken sneak/hide dragging corpses. And if this post at http://www.thesafehouse.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2870 is to believed(posted 08-17-2000) bind would should cap at 70% post level level 50.

I am glad though we are talking about these issues and bringing them to light.