Project 1999

Go Back   Project 1999 > Server Issues > Bugs > Velious Beta > General Beta Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #81  
Old 03-31-2015, 05:44 PM
Daldaen Daldaen is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Kedge Keep
Posts: 9,062
Default

Using charmed mobs is legit [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.].
  #82  
Old 03-31-2015, 05:47 PM
koros koros is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rais [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You're missing the point. I confirmed that warriors weren't one shotted. Most were, but Furor had the best gear, and our 2nd main tank had just about the same amount of gear to tank also without being killed outright. I didn't say anything about just someone tanking him. I'm talking a collected effort of an entire raid force with increased stats from end game zones of ToV and Sleepers to be able to kill AoW by the end of Velious. I will say he will be killed way sooner than he was on live, because of the different tactics, sheer numbers of people in a guild and things still being different than it was on live.

You can throw 60 ragebringer rogue alts but if their attack/stats aren't up to par it won't do shit to his hps/regen/how long the fight will be. This is combining items from ToV, Primals, haste items, better item BiS items at the end. I want to say if there wasn't an update and change in stats to most ToV items, AoW would haven't been killed before the expansion ended "legitly". Maybe I have the time line from tov upgrades and AoW kill that we and LoS did before the expansion ended mixed up, but I don't think so.

Just saying over all throwing numbers at a mob doesn't mean you can kill it just because of numbers. The best way to describe AoW at the start of Velious was like 100 lvl 20s attacking Brother Quinn and being killed pretty damn fast. It totally changed at the end with everyone geared up.
I bet you're right that AoW wouldn't have died then. But he would have died now given the same conditions. Your collective upgrades over the course of the expansion made a big difference on being able to kill AEing mobs with fewer people, but AoW is probably something of a rare case because he was melee only as has been pointed out.

As for your rogue point... I think this almost highlights my argument. Velious was particularly marginal to rogue dps upgrades. Backstab dps was static throughout the expansion. You saw maybe a 20%-25% dps across the board, mostly because of avatar. That means that 60 Kunark RB rogues, none of whom have avatar on in this example, is equal to 48 of your BiS end game Velious rogues.
  #83  
Old 03-31-2015, 06:56 PM
Treats Treats is offline
Fire Giant


Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
That means that 60 Kunark RB rogues, none of whom have avatar on in this example, is equal to 48 of your BiS end game Velious rogues.
This is laughable at best, I don't think you understand how ATK vs AC should work.

AoW would explode with 48 BiS end game Velious Rogues on this server lol.
  #84  
Old 03-31-2015, 10:42 PM
koros koros is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,127
Default

First off it's only 133 atk. Second, do you really think the programmer VI hired in 1997 actually did a normal distribution of atk vs ac or something similar? I'm certain it was a linear model.
  #85  
Old 04-01-2015, 10:32 AM
Raev Raev is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 2,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treats
AoW would explode with 48 BiS end game Velious Rogues on this server lol.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rais [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
You can throw 60 ragebringer rogue alts but if their attack/stats aren't up to par it won't do shit to his hps/regen/how long the fight will be. This is combining items from ToV, Primals, haste items, better item BiS items at the end.
How do those NToV BiS items even matter? Every rogue will have 40% haste and 255 STR, and the HP/resists are pointless as he doesn't AE. Backstab damage doesn't go up, so the only difference will be Avatar and better ratios. If we are conservative and say that Kunark rogues will do 2/3 as much damage . . . bring 50% more rogues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pasi
This is going to sound elitist, but fuck it, we've had 10 of these threads: I really wish that I could still view this game in the same mystical way many of you do. I see Avatar of War and I see a mob who has an unslowable mob capable of quads + flurries with a DB of 254 and a DI of 45. Now, you may tell stories at Thanksgiving Dinner of your suspenseful encounters with this mythical creature, but it doesn't change the fact that the dude is an unslowable mob capable of quads + flurries with a DB of 254 and a DI of 45. Got a tank who can survive a round of that? Great. Got enough clerics to make sure the tank is only taking 1 round between CHeals? Awesome. Got some mages to keep the mana going? Perfect. Let's do some work.
This. The Avatar of War is, conceptually, a trivial tank and spank fight. He has big numbers, but that just means you need more people.
  #86  
Old 04-01-2015, 11:43 AM
wycca wycca is offline
Sarnak


Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 369
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
How do those NToV BiS items even matter? Every rogue will have 40% haste and 255 STR, and the HP/resists are pointless as he doesn't AE. Backstab damage doesn't go up, so the only difference will be Avatar and better ratios. If we are conservative and say that Kunark rogues will do 2/3 as much damage . . . bring 50% more rogues.



This. The Avatar of War is, conceptually, a trivial tank and spank fight. He has big numbers, but that just means you need more people.
[You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

https://youtu.be/74BzSTQCl_c
__________________
Argenti | Cobblestone | Animan
  #87  
Old 04-01-2015, 12:24 PM
Treats Treats is offline
Fire Giant


Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 981
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by koros [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
First off it's only 133 atk. Second, do you really think the programmer VI hired in 1997 actually did a normal distribution of atk vs ac or something similar? I'm certain it was a linear model.
What you are saying is that 5 Rogues with 15/25 Main, 14/23 Offhand, no Aura of Battle, and no Avatar was equal to 4 Rogues with 15/19 Main, 15/20 Offhand, multiple Aura of Battles, and Avatar for the FULL DURATION of the fight.

Yes, it was normal distribution.

As mitigation AC overwhelms efficiency ATK, the distribution is shifted to the left (the mean is decreased), and as efficiency ATK overwhelms mitigation AC, the distribution is shifted to the right (the mean is increased).

I don't believe it was possible for ATK to overtake any bosses mitigation AC in Velious, not until Planes of Power when the caps were raised. Even then it may not have.

Quote:
Backstab damage doesn't go up, so the only difference will be Avatar and better ratios.
How exactly does Backstab damage not go up with increased ATK??
  #88  
Old 04-01-2015, 12:39 PM
Ele Ele is offline
Planar Protector

Ele's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,290
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
How exactly does Backstab damage not go up with increased ATK??
I believe he is referring to the maximum damage amount you can backstab, but +attack will allow you to hit for maximum more often.

(edit out wacky formula)
Last edited by Ele; 04-01-2015 at 01:54 PM..
  #89  
Old 04-01-2015, 01:41 PM
koros koros is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ele [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
I believe he is referring to the maximum damage amount you can backstab, but +attack will allow you to hit for maximum more often.

Backstab uses a weapon damage multiplier of: 2 + (Skill * 0.02).
((Offense + (Str up to 200) + (str over 200 / 5)) * WepDmg * Mult) / 100

With Ragebringer or any other 15 damage weapon:
((252 + 200 + (55 / 5)) * 15 * (2 + (225 * 0.02))) / 100 = 451.42500
Indeed that's what I'm saying. Also, that formula can't be right. It should be 553 max. Burned into my memory from years of maining a rogue.

RE: Got One
Quote
Reply
#Sep 14 2002 at 3:17 AMRating: Decent
Derrict
Scholar
**
627 posts
Neq is correct. There is no way for a normal 700+ BS with an RB w/o using duelist. Max BS with a 15 dmg poker @ 60 is ~ 553 (no crit). It's possible to BS ~ 1000-1500 with a crit, though.

April 4th, 2002 08:51 AM #58
Znail vh
Guest
Re: Info

Quote by Aerimus:
------------------------------------------------------------
Max dmg without an uber +bs skill weapon during duelist is 1106 I'll assume the average is somewhere 1/2 max or 553 as with all melee.
------------------------------------------------------------
  #90  
Old 04-01-2015, 01:50 PM
koros koros is offline
Planar Protector


Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,127
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Treats [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
What you are saying is that 5 Rogues with 15/25 Main, 14/23 Offhand, no Aura of Battle, and no Avatar was equal to 4 Rogues with 15/19 Main, 15/20 Offhand, multiple Aura of Battles, and Avatar for the FULL DURATION of the fight.

Yes, it was normal distribution.

As mitigation AC overwhelms efficiency ATK, the distribution is shifted to the left (the mean is decreased), and as efficiency ATK overwhelms mitigation AC, the distribution is shifted to the right (the mean is increased).

I don't believe it was possible for ATK to overtake any bosses mitigation AC in Velious, not until Planes of Power when the caps were raised. Even then it may not have.



How exactly does Backstab damage not go up with increased ATK??
No parses have ever shown atk/vs ac was normally distributed or even close. It was linear or logarithmic.
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:45 AM.


Everquest is a registered trademark of Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Project 1999 is not associated or affiliated in any way with Daybreak Game Company LLC.
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.