Progression Server...

[stormlord]

This is version 2 of the rough draft for this server idea.

-> Introduction
.....Anybody wondered why there's no emulated server that's explicitly made for progression? On Irreverant, for example, there's a progression guild, but it's not built into the server. All of it's orchestrated by the guild officers and posts in the forum. What I'm getting at is a server that has tasks tied to progression and rules that you can't break. These things are hard coded. They're not arbitrary. However, a player can choose not to be a progression character. If that's the case, they can play on this server and it'll be much like PEQ without any restrictions on what they can wear/use.

-> A Progression Character
.....The character will probably be flagged as a "progression character" after they enter the game. Alternatively, it could be based on whether they choose to enter the tutorial or not. If they choose not to enter the tutorial, then that would mean they're flagged as a progression character. At a later point, a character should be allowed to disable the progression flag. Whether or not this can be undone, I'm not sure. This would allow them to be able to play the game like it's PEQ.

If you're a progression character then you will start out pre-Kunark.You can't wear weapons/armor/etc that're from Kunark or after. You have things you must complete in pre-Kunark content in order to open up Kunark and be able to wear/use items from Kunark. This applies to all expansions, successively. For example, once you're in Kunark, you have to complete things in Kunark before being able to wear/use luclin-specific weapons/armor/items/etc.

-> How to ensure unbroken progression
.....Care might have to be taken to prevent high-levels from hogging old named/raid mobs so that progression characters can progress. One way of getting around this might be to diversify the targets a player must kill and the quests they must do to progress into the next expansion.

-> Things a player does to advance progression
.....Kill targets. A developer might put raid mobs, named and other small monsters on the list (that normally aren't going to be camped very much). You could make it so that 15 out of 30 must be killed or 20 out of 60 must be killed. This way a player could pick their targets and have a large array of options. I imagine that some raid targets -should- be required to kill, but it shouldn't be excessive and it should be made so that higher-levels can't impede the flow.

You might also add quests to the list of things to do. For example, maybe a player has to complete his level 46 spell quest in addition to his targets to enter the next expansion. Some fluidity here is good. You want to mix it up and give players choices so that it doesn't feel cemented. They need to feel in control. So this means lots of options. Perhaps instead of doing the level 46 quest the player must do a chain quest that's on the same level. You need many alternatives so that a player can build their character the way they want to.

-> How would a player keep updated about his/her progression
.....How would a player be communicated the targets and quests he or she could do? I'm thinking of a book in the players inventory when they create the character. Or a command like #progress. These would list all of hte targets you can kill and all of the quests you can do to advance, as well as your accomplishments thus far.

-> Races
.....How would races be handled that're post-classic? Like lizards and cats and frogs? Well, this is a tough one because they were made for those later expansions. If a player decides to be pure progression then they must progress through classic before entering Kunark or being able to use items in Kunark. So where do these races go that're not original. One idea is to not allow them to be progression characters. Another is to only allow them to progress in their expansion and after, but not before. Another is to allow all progression characters to travel anywhere in any expansion but -not- be able to wear the items or use the expansion-specific potions/etc they're not flagged for. Only downside is that a cat or lizard has to travel to classic when they start. Original races could begin leveling up immediately, by comparison. Is this acceptable?

Another thing I might add is the possibility of a cat being able to level up in luclin and use items that're tagged as being classic - things like rusty swords and rations and fine steel and bronze and so on. And they could buy classic items while in luclin. Finally, they could travel to classic when they're comfortable and actually be able to wear/use everything that drops and work on their progression.

-> Item Database
.....Items would have to be flagged according to the expansion they belong. So all Kunark items have to be flagged as Kunark and this is hte case for Luclin and after. Items that drop in all expansions can be flagged as classic (everyone has access to them).

-> Progression rate and solo-ability
.....The server is almost certain to have a low population, at least at first. One thing that would be important to do is to increase the experience gain by a dramatic amount. This should probably always be the case since this server is about progression, not about grinding. Therefore, you probably need to lower the difficulty of the raid mobs. You might even decrease the power of the monsters if hte population is low and increase it when it increases. I think most everything should be soloable (including progression) except key named and raid mobs - which can be done by 2 or up to 6. But don't overdo it. That's not the aim.

-> Type of progression
.....With this server it's not the toughness of things or how hardcore you're. It's the number of things. Max level is not the goal. Showing that you have raid gear is not the aim. Showing that you have progressed IS. This tells others that you have seen antonica, you know the dreadlands, you tasted the snows of the wastelands, you saw the creatures on the moon, and so on. It's more subtle than judging someone based on their items.

-> Still looking for the ideal server
.....I haven't really found a server yet that perfectly fits what I'm looking for. Project 1999 and its pvp server, for example, are fun, but: 1) they don't allow you to explore anything after Velious 2) it's more of a grind than progression 3) not really good for someone who's already seen most of it before (a veteran) but wants to iron out all of the loose ends to see the things he or she missed. To reiterate #3: A lot of EQr's are looking to re-experience EQ, but not at the same pace as before. I think that p1999 is somewhat fun if it's all new to you. Otherwise, the grind is painfully obvious. As for other emulated servers, I haven't found one that's like PEQ but geared towards a more structured sort of progression. I gave an example in the introduction of Irreverant. It falls short with respect to the inaccessible nature of the (structured) progression.

-> I'm not bashing on project 1999
.....I love p1999 and the pvp server. Don't misunderstand me. I don't like the map window. I like corpse runs. I like the old zones. I don't much like luclin and some of hte newer zones. I like how the older game has a more fleshed out world that's innocent and not messed up and sterile compared to the more modern. There're homecities in this older game. In the new one, it's just POK. That's lame. I could go on and on about the things I like about p1999 and its pvp server. So don't label me or pigeon-hole me into a corner.

I will also say that p1999 and its pvp server are the most genuine servers out there. I respect them mightily. They work very hard to be accurate. For many reasons they're recommendable.

-> What about the progression server on live?
.....It's not at all like the progression server on live because that one is SHARED progression across the ENTIRE server. What I'm referring to here is a progression character. The character must accomplish certain goals to unlock the next expansion. This is different.

If anything, this thread was posted here for fun. Grab a beer.

[vinx]

TL;DR
cept the first line.. i like irreverent server [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

[Muchew]

Can you rewrite in the form of a picture book?

I can't read, I am an American.

[georgie]

summarize this i kinda want to read this but dont really wanna read half way and get bored and then just read it cuz i already started it. and not really pay attention

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by georgie [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

summarize this i kinda want to read this but dont really wanna read half way and get bored and then just read it cuz i already started it. and not really pay attention

Made some changes. It's version 2 now.

[Gwence]

interesting idea, problem as always is it requires someone that has the time and desire to undertake such a project.

[stormlord]

Originally Posted by Gwence [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

interesting idea, problem as always is it requires someone that has the time and desire to undertake such a project.

Looks like somebody beat me to it:
http://www.eqemulator.org/forums/sho...044#post205044

I'm not hot on the HP/Mana regen outside combat idea. I realize it's mainly an attempt to : a) compensate warriors/melees that cannot heal easily b) eliminate some of the downtime. But I don't like how it eliminate the use of bandages (for melee) and makes certain spells/songs less meaningful. For example, a ranger finds it hard to heal DURING combat (w/o root). In all the years I played my ranger on live, I usually only used my heal spells between fights to reduce downtime. But on these servers with HP/Mana regen, it decreases the need for that and thus it reduces the value of it for the ranger. There're probably other examples as well, especially for support classes. And warriors have a bonus to their bandage use that would be meaningless in this instance. Anytime you flirt with changes like this, you end up changing the game and throwing out some things

I think the main problem is that warriors are crappy solo classes by design. Further, they're boring to play solo (too simple). This goes for several other classes. When you try to translate them to a solo-able server you will run into lots of problems. This is because the mechanics are very complicated (like spaghetti) and you can't apply a server-wide change without making a mess. It's hit and miss. I've encountered this on all of the solo-enabled emulated servers so far. You will find that necromancers and other solo-able classes are much more effective than the warriors and pure melees. It's a big problem. It requires an attention to detail.

If you think about it, one way to solve the problem is to just add bots to the server -or- add lots of support for MQ2 in the forums so that people can find out how to do it. This way the integrity of classes and hte mechanics can remain without being carpet bombed. Lowering the hp/regen/dps of monsters might have some unforseen problems but I'd go with that too. Along with much greater experience gain.

But I'm glad I can't tell everyone what to do. If I did, we'd all de-evolve. Statistically, I'm wrong about a lot of sh**. Everyone is. Basically, if a you disagree with a concept or a server on principle or something then you need to produce your own server or provide an alternative. That's what competition is about.

I'm gonna give that Nagefen a spin and see how it goes.

[stormlord]

Some other problems with solo servers:
1) How do non-cc classes cc pull and manage adds?
2) How do non-druids/wizards port around easily?
3) How do non-trackers track?
4) How do non-casters invis themselves unless they use a potion?
5) How do non-casters slow/debuff/etc?
6) How do non-healers heal themselves?

Trying to cast a warrior or pure melee as a solo-class on a solo server is just not logical when you take into account everything that goes into EQ. The only way to resolve this really is to do things like this:
1) Remove vicinity aggro and mob-aggro (mobs won't chain together)
.. this removes the need for cc abilities and invis
2) Teach users how to use MQ2 so they can "track"
2a) Remove pathers (wanderers) and put ALL key quest/named npcs on the map
.. this removes the need for tracking
3) Give everyone a teleportation bot or put teleportation bots in every zone
.. this removes the need for druid/wizard ports
4) Debuff mobs in the hardcode
.. this removes the need to debuff the mobs in-game via class abilities
5) Boost the power of the heal potions and/or decrease the reuse time
.. this removes the need for class healing abilities

And I mentioend in my last past about adding bots as one possible way to resolve the "spaghetti" mechanics of EQ without breaking them. The problem with that is how do you access tracking if it's on a bot? How do you tell your bot to do effective crowd control? How do you tell your bot to play smart? How do you tell your bot to invis you? How do you tell your bot to port you? Etc Etc. Bots are very very hard to get RIGHT. That's why so so many people don't do it. Not even live EQ does it very well and, at least when I was playing in early 2010, they only had a warrior and cleric. Those're probably the two most fundamental and the easier ones to do. But there're still 14 other classes missing from the merc list. That means that the low level game up to the semi-high level game has to be nerfed to compensate for the gap between haves and have-nots. So, for example, a warrior and cleric merc combo have to be able to level up without need to do serious CCing or tracking or having to use abilities not available to them. In a way, this is not a bad thing. Players that're leveling up will gradually learn the game (on easy-mode). Then when they reach the high level game and join the bulk of the population they'll start grouping and doing more demanding content without the use of mercs.

Whenever I have thought of mercs or bots I don't think of dead-eyed pets. I always think of NPCs that live in-game somewhere and I walk up to them and say "Do you want to join me as an adventurer and have a share of the loot?" I wish bots and mercenaries had personalities and backgrounds that we as players could use for roleplaying or just as something to know. If you think about it, there could be all sorts of things developers can do to make bots/mercs more interesting. Maybe there could be several merc personalities. Maybe you could go on merc-specific quests to improve them? There's gotta be somethign they can do to improve the relationship between players and mercs/bots. Right now, I'm not imrpessed at all with how Sony did mercenaries.

I'd like to refer to my bout with DDO (dungeons and dragons online). I liked how they scripted some of the missions. Non-player characters had voices and distinct personalities. I'd like to refer to that when I am discussing how to improve mercenaries or bots. They -need- personalities. So I point to some of the scripted NPCs in the DDO missions. Maybe EQ2 already does this - I haven't played it. But if they could at least give the bots/mercs voices or some roleplaying background, I'd be much happier as a gamer (and avid fantasy lover).

I'd like to have Guard Cheslin as my bot/merc. But I have to convince him and his father that working for the guards is not the best thing for him. I'm good with the knights of thunder. Etc. Maybe I have to do some extra convincing in the higher levels to keep Guard Cheslin with me. Or maybe we get to do a temple of thunder quest to improve his gear. Maybe his father would join in on the quest: Chesgard Sydwen. Alternatively, I could just hire any old bloke from the Inn. People out of work or looking for some coin will work for anybody.

I have this dream that one day RPGs will be able to generate non-players on-the-spot with a believable interlocking background and personality. This could come complete with quests as well and a dynamic friend/enemy list and potential to change. And a memory of the players and places it goes too. But knowing how to do this without needing debugging or testing is something that's well beyond me. But it's fun to dream.

[Grizzled]

EQ was designed with each class having a specific role to play. Honestly people are wasting their time making all classes soloable. If pure soloablitity is what you want from any class, then you need to look into the WoW emulator. WoW by default is set up for soloing, and instant gratification( by comparison to EQ). Most people play EQ becuase its not easy, there are plenty of easy games out there for people to play.

The progression idea is cute, however will lead to more issues than its worth. P99 is a progression server, however its taking longer time wise because of how few code people work on the project. The flagging system was introduced in planes of powers. I happened to enjoy it, however eventually sony dismantled it.

[Reikerx]

Because once the majority of the server progressed to Velious or whatever, there would be no one around to raid Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, etc, and the server would effectively be locked out to new players. Which is about the worst thing you could do if trying to make a successful server.

Also it would be an epic pain in the ass to implement the coding for everything you're suggesting. Basically your suggestion is to spend ages implementing some insane coding just to lock out new players from ever accessing higher end content on your server.

No one's done this before because it's a terrible, awful idea.