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  #41  
Old 07-06-2013, 08:44 PM
SirAlvarex SirAlvarex is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by t0lkien [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
As I said though, I know you get it, and the choice to twist more than 3 is situational. The important point is that songs will drop, and that should be understood.
Damnit, I wish I would have saw that you understood the situational part before writing up that piece of a reply. Ohwell.
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  #42  
Old 07-06-2013, 09:11 PM
t0lkien t0lkien is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirAlvarex [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Mathematics:
Each song has a cast time of ~3 seconds
Each Beneficial Duration song lasts between 12 and 18 seconds, depending on where the song was cast in regards to the server tick.

12/3 = 4, so mathematically he maximum number of songs you can play at any one point is 4, since that's the hard minimum. If you can automate the process so there's no lag, then you have 4 beneficial durationsongs that are only broken up by missed-note garbage.... etc
This is what I'm disputing. It's theorycrafting, not practical experience. Songs are listed as lasting 3 ticks - all our songs btw, including detrimental songs (barring Clarity), and that is my experience with them both grouping and kiting. I understand the theory behind the variance, but it doesn't hold up on the server when you actually play. As I said, if you can produce a video showing otherwise, awesome. I'm not being arrogant about this, just calling it for what it is. I can't reproduce what you're saying - this after literal years of twisting. You get an innate feel for the timing of things after even a short time twisting. This variance just doesn't happen, and was never discussed during live (as far as I'm aware). I'm not spouting things to argue, I've played a Bard for years. Show me a video and I'll recant.

But yes, the 4 song buff thing is the main point. Non-Bards are not going to care nor understand about the rest. It's Secret Bard Business.

The reason this matters is because things become "true" just by repetition. Then you get the situation where if some ass in game doesn't see four icons in his buff bar, he accuses a Bard of being crap or lazy. This happened to me many times on live. I had people telling me if you don't have 5 songs up you're a bad Bard yadda yadda. So I did all the research and got the facts and argued back, and just like in this thread with part time Bards saying all sorts of anecdotal nonsense, when it's tried it doesn't hold up. No kidding, because it's patently wrong.

Remember when Bards were blamed for aggroing all of Hate just by singing any song at all? Yeah, same deal. I was forbidden from singing during Hate raids for months because of that pariticular bit of bullshit, and blamed for raid wipes caused by some other player's stupidity. It gets old fast.

That is all [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
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  #43  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:04 PM
SirAlvarex SirAlvarex is offline
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Have you tried fear kiting? It wouldn't be possible to do with all 5 songs if it weren't for the fact that all detrimental songs are on a minimum 18s duration. It's also why all of our DoTs hit 3 times, since the server ticks every 6 seconds.

You'd have to find the bug report, but I think it was 2 years ago the beneficials also lived by the 3-tick rule. Meaning they lasted 18 seconds and it *was* possible to keep up 4-5 songs without a drop. But they changed it, because someone found evidence of a song only lasting 12-18 seconds, and the "3-tick" idea came from people noticing the high-end duration of songs.

That nerf made the next day of circle kiting reaaaal fun.

Found the bug report on the nerf: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...ad.php?t=57246
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Last edited by SirAlvarex; 07-06-2013 at 10:07 PM..
  #44  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:22 PM
t0lkien t0lkien is offline
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I only fear kited with melee from behind, I didn't DoT. I didn't see the point when it's safer to circle kite with DoTs, Selos never being "resisted" like Fear could be. As a result I was fearing and snaring, so wouldn't notice a dropped duration if it occurred. This was on Live though, not on p99.

However as I said, this variance theory never surfaced on Live. If it's a reality on p99, it's not "classic". I haven't noticed it, but then my experience here is much less than on Live.
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  #45  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:38 PM
SirAlvarex SirAlvarex is offline
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The DPS from the 3 DoTs is insanely better. Against non-high resist mobs (of which should be easy to find near max level) you'll do over 30 DPS with Selo`s Drums. I haven't parsed out using melee weapons, but the mobs definitely die faster.

---

I decided to continue my tests, and found this interesting.

I never really noticed with the healing spells their duration, but constantly with Cantata I am getting the following reaction.

-1 - start casting Cantata
0 - server tick, health raises 3
2 - Cantata fires, stop singing
6 - regen for 15
12 - regen for 15
18 - regen for 15, buff immediately ends

So in other words, it lasts just the duration of the 3 ticks no matter what. For spells like our regen songs, that's fine because we only get the benefit on the server ticks anyway. The rest of the buffs tho don't have such a defined cutoff. So if you were to just twist Regens/Mana for a caster group, then you'd be perfectly fine doing Cantata+4 mana twists (15-18s cast time) to maximize your regen capabilities for the casters.
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  #46  
Old 07-06-2013, 10:53 PM
t0lkien t0lkien is offline
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Isn't that bug post pointing out the extended duration of fear and the DoTs is a bug? Fear lasting 10 ticks is insane, and obviously not as intended. Naturally that would work better, but it's not "classic" [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]

Selo's DoT kiting allowed me to land all DoT's *just* before or after having to recast Selos, though if I remember I'd cycled through the DoT's, using two each time to make sure Selo's never dropped. That would put 3 DoTs on the mob every second tick, with two otherwise. Much better to miss one tick of a DoT then get hammered from Selo's dropping. Often mobs were resistant to one of the DoT's too, so I never lost much by it being cycled out. I graduated to this over reverse fear kiting as soon as I got my third DoT at 46.

Which brings me back to the original point really - it's safer to play the inside of timers, than push for a "perfect" result which is rarely going to happen, especially where something critical like Selos or resists are involved. The lost time/XP from a death way overbalances anything gained from sneaking in that extra tick of song.
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Last edited by t0lkien; 07-06-2013 at 11:09 PM..
  #47  
Old 07-06-2013, 11:15 PM
SirAlvarex SirAlvarex is offline
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I don't remember fear lasting that long, but the DoT's use to tick off 4 times sometimes. Actually it was 4 times *most* of the time.
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  #48  
Old 07-07-2013, 03:33 AM
astuce999 astuce999 is offline
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5 song twist + BoH click.

All 3 dots hit every single time, mob doesnt break fear or snare at any point, only time I get hit is a riposte.

http://youtu.be/00IG22ip5bA
  #49  
Old 07-07-2013, 06:43 AM
t0lkien t0lkien is offline
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Are you doing a straight twist (1,2,3,4,5... etc.) or is Fear lasting the (bugged) 10 ticks it was before? If you're doing a straight 1 for 1 twist, then all the songs are still one tick longer than they should be as noted here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/sh...t=57246&page=4

In which case, this is a bug, and not like live *shrug*. I forget we're working with a different code base than on live. Either way, good job.
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  #50  
Old 07-07-2013, 10:44 AM
astuce999 astuce999 is offline
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Strait twist; song 1, song 2, song 3, song 4, BoH click, song 5... repeat.

Fear only lasts up to 17.9 seconds like it should, and can break early on tougher mobs.

Songs are not lasting longer than they should, it's just that there's no wearing off message on detrimental songs, and as long as they are reapplied before the next time the server ticks there is no loss in efficiency.

cheers
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