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  #31  
Old 12-19-2016, 04:37 AM
Jauna Jauna is offline
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Being a Paladin while leveling up:
YOU ARE THE QUEEN GOD KING OF SNAP AGRO FROM LEVEL NINE TO LEVEL FIFTY-NINE YOU CAN MAKE BOTH DRUID AND SHAMAN HEALERS WORK BECAUSE YOU CAN ALSO FUCKING HEAL AND YOU GET THIS BITCHING HOT AT FIFTY-NINE AS YOU ROCK SHIT WITH SELF SYMBOLS, LULL PULLING, ROOT CC AND STUNNING CASTERS UNTIL THEY DIIIIE

Being a paladin at level 60:
You are a Divine Strength buffbot who can provide somewhat poor to mediocre raid heals when you get put into the straggler group with a druid and nonrogue/monks. People may allow you to tank hate/fear trash if you are in full w/ntov geared however, maybe.

Now..

Being a Ranger while leveling up:
JESUS GOD WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME STOP FUCKING HITTING ME OH SHIT EVERYTHING SLOWS DOWN AT LEVEL 20 AND I CANT BUFF, ATTACK OR HEAL WORTH A SHIT FUCKING CRAB SHIT CAKES FIFTH SNARE RESIST WHY AM I A THING FUCK YEAH BEING A PULLER IN OUTDOOR ZONES LIKE MISTMOORE, COM AND KARNORS HARMONY IS AMAZING UNTIL I RUN OUT OF ARROWS

edit: Once you get to level 22 you can fear kite animals to level up which makes this whole ordeal somewhat easier and quite enjoyable when you realize most older exp zones are taken over by fungi twinks and PL bots

Being a Ranger at level 60:
Strength of Nature, Call of the Predator and Call of Earth buffbot for the real DPS/tank classes, you do alright damage, your heals still suck and your snares still get resisted but you provide three great buffs for a raid. Your clicky cloak is nice for 6man groups but bards/shams can pump out the same haste % while enchanters will make your cloak a bagspace takerupper
Last edited by Jauna; 12-19-2016 at 04:43 AM..
  #32  
Old 12-28-2016, 07:39 AM
Trelaboon Trelaboon is offline
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You might as well be asking "Druid or Rogue?"

Paladin and Ranger are going to be so different in how they are played that it's really gonna come down to whether you like pulling nonstop or sitting in the group waiting for mobs to come so you can tank them. On my Ranger I only melee mobs until they're like 80% health, then I go find another so the pulls never slow down.

Ranger is definitely more fun in the raid scene, but only just a little bit.
  #33  
Old 12-28-2016, 01:40 PM
Jimjam Jimjam is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jauna [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Being a Paladin while leveling up:
YOU ARE THE QUEEN GOD KING OF SNAP AGRO FROM LEVEL NINE TO LEVEL FIFTY-NINE YOU CAN MAKE BOTH DRUID AND SHAMAN HEALERS WORK BECAUSE YOU CAN ALSO FUCKING HEAL AND YOU GET THIS BITCHING HOT AT FIFTY-NINE AS YOU ROCK SHIT WITH SELF SYMBOLS, LULL PULLING, ROOT CC AND STUNNING CASTERS UNTIL THEY DIIIIE

Being a paladin at level 60:
You are a Divine Strength buffbot who can provide somewhat poor to mediocre raid heals when you get put into the straggler group with a druid and nonrogue/monks. People may allow you to tank hate/fear trash if you are in full w/ntov geared however, maybe.

Now..

Being a Ranger while leveling up:
JESUS GOD WHY IS THIS HAPPENING TO ME STOP FUCKING HITTING ME OH SHIT EVERYTHING SLOWS DOWN AT LEVEL 20 AND I CANT BUFF, ATTACK OR HEAL WORTH A SHIT FUCKING CRAB SHIT CAKES FIFTH SNARE RESIST WHY AM I A THING FUCK YEAH BEING A PULLER IN OUTDOOR ZONES LIKE MISTMOORE, COM AND KARNORS HARMONY IS AMAZING UNTIL I RUN OUT OF ARROWS

edit: Once you get to level 22 you can fear kite animals to level up which makes this whole ordeal somewhat easier and quite enjoyable when you realize most older exp zones are taken over by fungi twinks and PL bots

Being a Ranger at level 60:
Strength of Nature, Call of the Predator and Call of Earth buffbot for the real DPS/tank classes, you do alright damage, your heals still suck and your snares still get resisted but you provide three great buffs for a raid. Your clicky cloak is nice for 6man groups but bards/shams can pump out the same haste % while enchanters will make your cloak a bagspace takerupper
I actually found my ranger had zero problems tanking in groups while levelling up, all the way through to the early 40s. Only at this point, where defence skill ups stop dead does tankiness really start to diminish... Or maybe that is just when things start to hit harder?

I kept a focus on AC and Str during these levels. (mitigation, loot whoreing and alleged marginal dps increase).

Both paladin and ranger get damage-less aggro spells (blind/stun and snare), making them stack nicely with enchanters. Paladins flourish a little later with their damage-less root, which really ensures CCd mobs don't chase after the enc. The ranger has to rely on the memblur component of mez failing, or spamming snare on mezzed adds.


I took a look at my logs for 20k+ of damage to my ranger and a few paladins tanking some of the tougher mobs in KC (Spectral Protectors, Spectral Knights, Skeletal Warlord, Skeletal Scryer, Skeletal Protectors, Skeletal Captain, Skeletal Berserker, Knight of Sathir, Hangnail, Decayed Prisoners, Caller of Sathir, A Drolvarg Warlord, a drolvarg captain, a drolvarg bodyguard, a cursed hand, a construct).

Paladin 1 (level 51)
Average hit 70,
Real hits 53%

Ranger (lvl 52-53)
Average hit 64
Real hits 51%

Paladin 2 (level 55)
Average hit 66
Real hits 43%

Paladin3 (level 56)
Average hit 66
Real hits 46%

Looking at this, it seems on an 'in the field basis' the ranger can accumulate sufficient worn AC to mitigate decently enough in the early 50s (maybe the ranger was also better at stacking spell AC? The group had druids and necromancers healing throughout, so luckily the lower total HP wasn't so important), but is held back in terms of avoidance (perhaps due to the lower defence skill).
  #34  
Old 12-30-2016, 01:39 PM
Jimjam Jimjam is offline
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As a follow up post, a 51 paladin fighting lvl 47-48 mobs under the late velious era AC system should classically take an average hit of 73, be hit 50% of the time (after skill evasion). This is what was posted by a live dev just after it was revamped in the luclin/pop era (https://www.project1999.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=48312).
 

I found all the KC monsters that are frequently in the 47-48 range and took a look at how it would pan out compared to live using the 51 paladin from my logs. I assumed he had sufficient AC to exceed the soft cap because p99 mudflation.

Av Hit: 74 (live 73)
Skill evasion: 9.7% (11.5)
Hits: 59%* (61)

*for this figure I used number of hits divided by the number of swings that weren't skill evaded

I found this pretty interesting as it actually pans out very close to the dev-parsed figures on live (presuming I interpreted their definition of 'hits' correctly). Even the % max hit eyeballs as pretty close to correct (12% vs 10.5%), but with the way I've collected my data I will not attempt to produce an accurate figure.

Props to the p99 devs for doing a good job here, and don't let people tell you AC is broken (at this level / against xp mobs at least)! The live parses were meant to have cleric AC and shaman agi buffs on though. Also, weren't hybrids under slightly better skill caps in luclin than this p1999 point? so while perhaps not entirely perfect, pretty darn close.

The 51 paladin took about 11% more damage per hit than the 56 and was hit 23% more often.

For reference, the ranger (52-53 during this time)

Av hit :68
skill evasion: 11%
hit rate: 60%

Which perhaps makes sense (high AC cap makes better mitigation, but lower defence skill means lower hit rate)?

Sadly no ranger live data given. I would have liked to see that (though it would have been with substantially different skill caps)!

My logs had about 10-25k damage per player, which works out as ~300-600 swings each, which isn't a great sample size so salt to taste!


Anyway, TLDR; Armour for xp content seems to be working as live did. Both classes can mitigate/avoid okay early 50s. Ranger perhaps slightly weaker due to less hp?
Last edited by Jimjam; 12-30-2016 at 01:46 PM.. Reason: I regret not having a monk do a substantial amount of tanking against these mob as an extra comparison point.
  #35  
Old 12-30-2016, 02:53 PM
Danth Danth is offline
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Right. Rangers have a smaller hit point pool so they're a little more vulnerable to burst damage (spells or harm touch, typically) than Paladins. Rangers also lack the Paladin's ability to chain-stun opponents at will, so the Paladin's also a lot less vulnerable to things like late complete heals or unslowed monsters and also stops healer opponents much more easily than the Ranger. That being said, comparing the two classes within the tank role seems rather academic; the group tank job is at best a secondary concern for the Ranger class whilst it's the Paladin's main purpose.

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  #36  
Old 12-30-2016, 03:50 PM
Jimjam Jimjam is offline
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Yes, I've noticed paladins also synergise very well with enchanters, able to damageless stun/root/FoL mobs in camp to give the enc breathing room.

All a ranger can really do in this situation is try to take aggro with snare and that is it.

Paladin is objectively the better tank (for your reasons and more) but rangers are passable tanks for far longer than they are given credit for.

If you specifically want to tank then unless you are planning to form all your own groups I would recommend against rolling a ranger. Not cos they are particularly bad; as I've noted they are actually good for most of the levels and passable even later on. However, the meta is against them tanking in so far as you are not going to receive group invites to tank with a ranger.

Sure, you might be asked to tank so the monk can pull (often a mistake imho, monk tanking and dps far outstrips that of most classes and rangers can pull sufficiently well in many areas). Or maybe if the 'real' tank has gone afk or had to split (note if the afk tank is a warrior, just root park the mob on his toes as you would be doing otherwise and let him tank it while afk). However, in these situations you will be asked to tank with rolling eyes, 'thank god I have clarity' and so on.
  #37  
Old 01-13-2017, 03:46 AM
kaev kaev is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimjam [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
Sure, you might be asked to tank so the monk can pull (often a mistake imho, monk tanking and dps far outstrips that of most classes and rangers can pull sufficiently well in many areas). Or maybe if the 'real' tank has gone afk or had to split (note if the afk tank is a warrior, just root park the mob on his toes as you would be doing otherwise and let him tank it while afk). However, in these situations you will be asked to tank with rolling eyes, 'thank god I have clarity' and so on.
With choice between Ranger & Monk to tank you're gonna get more mileage having the Monk dps and the Ranger tank in many situations, pretty much always if you have a slower, as Ranger has the cheap agro spells to take and hold agro so the slower can slow early in the fight and monk (and any other dps) can go all out dps from the mob's backside.

Of course, if you have no slower & heals are weak and the Monk has decent AC gear and the Ranger is wearing promqueen gear (str & dex instead of ac & hp), the Monk tank option looks pretty attractive. Even moreso if you're in an outdoor dungeon so the Ranger gets easy single pulls with harmony.
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  #38  
Old 01-13-2017, 05:45 AM
Jimjam Jimjam is offline
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That seems a fair summary.
  #39  
Old 01-13-2017, 08:51 AM
Aaramis Aaramis is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaev [You must be logged in to view images. Log in or Register.]
With choice between Ranger & Monk to tank you're gonna get more mileage having the Monk dps and the Ranger tank in many situations, pretty much always if you have a slower, as Ranger has the cheap agro spells to take and hold agro so the slower can slow early in the fight and monk (and any other dps) can go all out dps from the mob's backside.

Of course, if you have no slower & heals are weak and the Monk has decent AC gear and the Ranger is wearing promqueen gear (str & dex instead of ac & hp), the Monk tank option looks pretty attractive. Even moreso if you're in an outdoor dungeon so the Ranger gets easy single pulls with harmony.
Very true on aggro. Rangers have all the necessary tools to taunt and hold aggro. Taunt button. Snare. Flame lick. Fast speed weapons.

As for promqueen gear, you're far more likely to see Monks wearing it than Rangers. Ranger gear is pretty cheap and decent for what you get (Ry'gorr, Sebilite Scale) and still has ok AC on it. Tolan's is pretty cheap too, and most Rangers probably have a piece of this or 2. Plus they get their own self-buff line, as Druids do, for AC + damage shield, which further boosts their AC.

Unlike the 135901735097 monks running around in black pantherskin, often over their weight allowance, and rely purely on others to buff their AC.
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