Answer my complex questions?

[Zaphyer]

1.) If Nilbog or Rogean ever decided to call it quits, would everyone lose everything?

2.) if a mob runs away from you're camp and you have to chase it down and kill it....
Are you losing you're camp?

3). Anyone ever witness a Cloaked Dhampyre being trained to Mistmoore entrance?
or maybe a story of a rare mob being trained to entrance somewhere else in Norrath?

4.) How long can a Cleric solo? Strictly no groups, duos, but just solo. Could they do it to 60 if they wanted, even though it would probably take... years maybe?

[Swish]

1. Can't see it happening but I'm sure they'd pass the project over to a responsible dev.
2. Chances are thats the mob you're camping, so no.
3. On Live back in the day he was part of a HUGE train that swept the zone clean, MM was a scary place to be back then. Not sure it he made it all the way to the entrance, got me at the ramp though.
4. Typing this on my phone so hard to give you a link but check "Kriven's Cleric Solo Guide" in the priests section of the forums. I made it to 53ish before drifting into a group, clerics are undead wizards and immensely powerful as long as there's undead to kill...which there is. Technically you could go to 60 finishing at the top of CoM or The Hole but you'd need balls of steel to do it.

[Itap]

I was going to answer your questions but I just sat there and watched Swish's gif for about 10 minutes.

[Swish]

I'm going to compact that guide at some point, its needlessly wordy and written with a silly style with needless anecdotes etc. Will trim it down for a quicker read.

[Thulack]

I was going to answer your questions but I just sat there and watched Swish's gif for about 10 minutes.

I want the hour of my life i have wasted watching that gif to see if the stretch armstrong horse ever pulls it out :D

[Ephirith]

I was going to answer your questions but I just sat there and watched Swish's gif for about 10 minutes.

this applicable to most threads imo

[Swish]

probably the funniest photo finish, i'd buy a copy :p

[webrunner5]

Swish you ever play anymore or just spend all your time looking for crazy ass Sigs which I enjoy a lot. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Swish]

Coming back properly next month, final year exams at university coming up...as much as I want to finish my cleric, get his epic and hit 60, it's gotta wait :(

Forumquest (and the occasional login on Sleeper to see what's going on, even though its never good) is about my limit at the moment. EQ or no EQ, the gifs will always be around ;)

[Estu]

clerics are undead wizards and immensely powerful

Correction: clerics are a gimped version of undead wizards, and are by no means powerful soloers. Wizards EXP by quad-kiting, which is a somewhat fast method of EXP (though still beat out by bard kiting, enchanter/druid charming, and magician/necromancer pet-utilizing methods), and they have Harvest, which despite its cooldown contributes nontrivially to their average mana regen. Clerics have single-target undead nukes that are about as efficient as Wizard single-target nukes (which one is actually more efficient varies by level). This means they EXP a lot slower than wizards, who already EXP slower than five other classes. They also have lulls and heals, which are nice, but certainly don't make them faster than quad-kiters.

In short, the statement that clerics are "immensely powerful" undead soloers is hyperbole. They can manage, but they're slower than every other caster class, i.e. not very good.

[Swish]

In short, the statement that clerics are "immensely powerful" undead soloers is hyperbole. They can manage, but they're slower than every other caster class, i.e. not very good.

Stop and think for a second. The best healing class in the game can potentially solo from 1-60 (and definitely 1-53). Doesn't that say something about the strength/flexibility of a cleric? I'd say that's overpowered, and I love it ;)

Spectre camp....

My necro fear kites a spec, takes him maybe 90 seconds with dot stacking and moving around.

My cleric roots the spec, nukes 3 times, and sits back down after about 20 seconds and meds for the next one.

Don't forum lawyer me on clerics being bad or slow soloers, they're not...and there's enough undead at all levels that they don't get "stuck" having to group (until 53 at least).

EDIT: I'd be interested to see a shaman's XP root rotting spectres/festering hags/other undead versus a cleric's DD and how that compares over an hour. I think its safe to say we aren't the "worst caster class" for soloing.

[Estu]

Stop and think for a second. The best healing class in the game can potentially solo from 1-60 (and definitely 1-53). Doesn't that say something about the strength/flexibility of a cleric? I'd say that's overpowered, and I love it ;)

Spectre camp....

My necro fear kites a spec, takes him maybe 90 seconds with dot stacking and moving around.

My cleric roots the spec, nukes 3 times, and sits back down after about 20 seconds and meds for the next one.

Don't forum lawyer me on clerics being bad or slow soloers, they're not...and there's enough undead at all levels that they don't get "stuck" having to group (until 53 at least).

EDIT: I'd be interested to see a shaman's XP root rotting spectres/festering hags/other undead versus a cleric's DD and how that compares over an hour. I think its safe to say we aren't the "worst caster class" for soloing.

I'm not trying to be an asshole here. I'm just saying that it's misleading to call them immensely powerful soloers when they are definitely slower in EXP per hour than every other caster class. If you like going AFK a lot to med, that's another story. Shaman-wise, they have canni/regen, a pet, and dots which are much more efficient than nukes; it's a no-brainer.

[Kieu]

probably the funniest photo finish, i'd buy a copy :p

I can't help but stare at the one head banging over and over.

[Swish]

Shaman-wise, they have canni/regen, a pet, and dots which are much more efficient than nukes; it's a no-brainer.

http://i.imgur.com/JgYtRkB.gif

Are you for real? My main on live for years was a shaman, you're not going to tell me that you're full mana after every mob kill are you? You're medding, the cleric is medding.

The difference is the cleric finished his spectre while you're still pissing about with yours on 70-80% with those dots and toothless pet dps without it being able to dual wield. The apparent downtime might seem like longer because of inactivity between kills, but I'm already likely about to pull my 2nd spectre while you're chewing your arm, healing/regenning and getting your mana back up to full.

Try thinking beyond the theory of soloing a cleric and give it a go, you'll be surprised.

[Estu]

Swish, it's pretty simple. Cleric undead nukes are far less mana-efficient than shaman DoTs; on top of that they have free pet DPS and extra mana regen from cannibalize. The result is that shamans can put out far more damage per hour than clerics can. It doesn't matter if that damage comes in the form of a single nuke or in the form of DoTs. You can claim that clerics require less work to solo because you nuke and then you med, but you can't claim that they down more monsters per hour because it's simply impossible; they can't do as much damage per point of mana, and they can't get back as much mana per hour.

[Swish]

If you can down a typical mob with 1 scourge + 1 venom of the snake with no recasts you're doing well.

Shaman

Scourge = 170 mana
Venom of the Snake = 160 mana
Blizzard Blast = 200 mana .....TOTAL = 530 mana per fight (assuming no resists, you cast everything once)
(Malaisement = 100) used or not?

(Chloroplast = 200 mana)
(Talisman of Altuna = 250 mana)

(Alacrity for pet = 115 mana)
(Heals for pet?)

(Guardian Spirit = 450 mana)


Not counting root as both use it.

Cleric

Banish Undead = 225 mana x3 = 675 mana per fight (assuming no resists)

(Resolution = 110 mana)


Cleric spends an extra 145 per fight but isn't worrying about a half dozen other things. Shaman upkeep is higher, shaman fights are longer...

As I say, I'd like to see it in practice...I'm probably being too generous assuming a shaman can work off 2 dots and 1 nuke to finish a mob without having to heal his pet or take some significant downtime to let his mana/pet recharge to full.

[Swish]

...you can't claim that they down more monsters per hour because it's simply impossible; they can't do as much damage per point of mana, and they can't get back as much mana per hour.

If the shaman is using that pet, he is regenning or healing it. That's adding to his downtime (edit: ...and the pet really doesnt add much dps)

I just don't see how canni suddenly makes a shaman more efficient than a cleric.

Resists on shaman spells (disease line and nukes) are greater in my experience than cleric undead nukes have been.

[Estu]

Three casts of Banish Undead does 1755 damage. A cast of Scourge does 544 damage, and a cast of Venom of the Snake does 453 damage. So one Scourge and three Venoms will do a total of 1905 damage, and cost 650 mana. That's 25 less mana than your three Banish Undead costs, and considerably more damage (granted, the monster also regenerates HP, but very slowly).

Now, let's think about the simplest scenario. Forget about cannibalize, forget about regen, forget about the pet, forget about buffs. Just casting those DoTs and rooting, a shaman is already a better soloer than a cleric.

Then, we can think about adding canni+regen, which increases your mana regen overall. You can say that regen requires upkeep, but this is not true because it pays for itself. Chloroplast at maximum duration (level 60) heals about 2000 HP for 200 mana, and at minimum duration (level 39) heals about 1300 HP for 200 mana. Canni I gives about 25 mana for 50 HP. So if you cast Chloroplast, you have to spend 400 HP to regain the mana for it, and the rest is free.

Then, we can think about adding the pet. Pets regenerate HP on their own pretty quickly. You can send the pet at the monster, let it do some damage, then back it off and let it regenerate on its own (no buffs, no nothing). This is free damage. You never have to recast the pet if you don't get it killed. If you decide to buff or heal the pet, this might make it better, or it might not be worth it, but if you JUST use the pet at a baseline, it's straight-up free damage.

So the shaman starts out with root+dots already better than the cleric. Then you add canni+regen and he's better still. Then you add a pet with no buffs or heals and he's better still. Then you can think about adding other buffs, or what have you, and improve him further. There's simply no question that the shaman is the better soloer.

[Swish]

Three casts of Banish Undead does 1755 damage. A cast of Scourge does 544 damage, and a cast of Venom of the Snake does 453 damage. So one Scourge and three Venoms will do a total of 1905 damage, and cost 650 mana. That's 25 less mana than your three Banish Undead costs, and considerably more damage (granted, the monster also regenerates HP, but very slowly).

Now, let's think about the simplest scenario. Forget about cannibalize, forget about regen, forget about the pet, forget about buffs. Just casting those DoTs and rooting, a shaman is already a better soloer than a cleric.

Then, we can think about adding canni+regen, which increases your mana regen overall. You can say that regen requires upkeep, but this is not true because it pays for itself. Chloroplast at maximum duration (level 60) heals about 2000 HP for 200 mana, and at minimum duration (level 39) heals about 1300 HP for 200 mana. Canni I gives about 25 mana for 50 HP. So if you cast Chloroplast, you have to spend 400 HP to regain the mana for it, and the rest is free.

Then, we can think about adding the pet. Pets regenerate HP on their own pretty quickly. You can send the pet at the monster, let it do some damage, then back it off and let it regenerate on its own (no buffs, no nothing). This is free damage. You never have to recast the pet if you don't get it killed. If you decide to buff or heal the pet, this might make it better, or it might not be worth it, but if you JUST use the pet at a baseline, it's straight-up free damage.

So the shaman starts out with root+dots already better than the cleric. Then you add canni+regen and he's better still. Then you add a pet with no buffs or heals and he's better still. Then you can think about adding other buffs, or what have you, and improve him further. There's simply no question that the shaman is the better soloer.

You can't choose to ignore buffs that you've got to cast, sorry dude. Flawed logic.

Shaman pets get chewed up, and they don't regenerate as quick as you're making out (at least not unless you're casting a regen... merely doing "/pet sit" doesnt cut it). Flawed.

Shamans not the better soloer versus undead, but cleric standard magic nukes are more mana cost and less damage - making them very unusable.

I'd suggest playing both classes before picking/choosing what you're including to back up your argument. You've clearly never solo'd a cleric at least.

The time differential if nothing else is a factor. You're going to let 3 VotS's tick down? That's a long time. Meanwhile, the cleric is sat there medding up nps, with 2 nukes worth of mana to spare iirc if no resists.

Position maintained... clerics are excellent soloers and certainly not the worst magic user to attempt it as Estu is making out.

[Estu]

You can't choose to ignore buffs that you've got to cast, sorry dude. Flawed logic.

You don't HAVE to cast any buffs. As I showed, though, casting chloro does give you a lot of extra mana. Other buffs, they might help, but my point was that shaman beats cleric even without them. If you argue that you need your basic HP buffs (resolution or talisman) or you'll die, OK, but those have such long durations that the difference their mana costs make are negligible.

Shaman pets get chewed up, and they don't regenerate as quick as you're making out (at least not unless you're casting a regen... merely doing "/pet sit" doesnt cut it). Flawed.

They regenerate quick enough that they can get in some hits every battle. Again, it's free damage, and the pet isn't necessary at all to out-solo a cleric.

Shamans not the better soloer versus undead

This is exactly what I just showed - that shamans in fact are the better soloer versus undead, because they can do more damage per mana, and regain mana faster, against undead (or anything else).

The time differential if nothing else is a factor. You're going to let 3 VotS's tick down? That's a long time.

The time differential is irrelevant. All that matters is how much damage you can put out over an hour (or whatever long period of time). Say your cleric kills 20 monsters an hour. That's some amount of HP damage you're doing every hour - say, 100,000 (this is an arbitrary number). If my shaman can do more damage than that every hour, then my shaman can kill more monsters. Since my shaman, just with roots and dots (excluding added bonuses like regen, pets, and buffs), already does more damage per hour than your cleric, my shaman can kill more monsters.

How do I know I'm doing more damage per hour? Because as I calculated in my post, I can cast four dots and do more damage for less mana than you can with your three nukes. Whether the monster takes longer to die is completely irrelevant. If I'm killing the monster so slowly that I get mana back faster than I spend it, I can grab another monster and kill the two of them simultaneously. If not (and I shouldn't be unless I have something crazy like a fungi tunic), then I'm spending less mana to do more damage, so I'm killing more monsters over time.

Think about it this way. You get a certain amount of mana per hour from meditation. You use all of it to nuke (we're ignoring roots, like you said, because both of us need to root (a minor issue is I might have to re-root a monster, but this doesn't cost enough mana to make the difference)), and do some amount of damage in that hour. I get the same amount of mana per hour (actually more with canni/regen, but again, even without canni/regen, I'd get more EXP), and I'm also spending it all, but I'm doing more damage.

If I do more damage in an hour then I kill more monsters and I get more EXP. That's all there is to it. And if I can do more damage in an hour JUST with roots and dots, then I can definitely do more damage in an hour with canni/regen, a pet, and anything else that improves my killing rate in the long run.

[Swish]

OK, I can tell from the other thread you're big on statistics...which is great.

But why ignore your downtime? Casting that many more spells there's more scope for resists (you're not factoring in the malise line), there's more scope for root breaks/recasts.

Shaman pets don't dual wield and are usually light blue/green con to its owner... they're not going to be great dps, free yes, but don't overplay their damage :/

If we had a 44 shaman and a 44 cleric with identical WIS, I'd totally wager a bet that a cleric would get through more undead mobs per hour than the shaman.

In my eyes you're not doing more damage per hour because you're spending longer on each mob to get that damage put out, and unless you think you can maintain full mana or close to it by frequent canni'ing through the fight or chain pulling I just don't see it. You can't speed your dps up without casting DD's, and the amount of canni work to keep up would set you back in heals or downtime to regen it.

I can't see it, sorry :(

[Estu]

OK, I can tell from the other thread you're big on statistics...which is great.

But why ignore your downtime? Casting that many more spells there's more scope for resists (you're not factoring in the malise line), there's more scope for root breaks/recasts.

Resists and root breaks or recasts are both valid criticisms. However, my experience with my shaman was that if I targeted mobs that were low dark blue cons, they would rarely resist my spells. I never cast malise when soloing for EXP. I found that resists were not a major issue. Sure, they are more of an issue for a shaman that has to cast ~6 spells on a mob than a cleric that has to cast ~4, but not that much more of an issue, and it's certainly more than made up for by canni and regen. If anything, I'd argue you might have to worry more about resists, since your nukes are magic-based and monsters tend to have higher magic resists than poison or disease resists, but again, I think it's a minor issue.

Shaman pets don't dual wield and are usually light blue/green con to its owner... they're not going to be great dps, free yes, but don't overplay their damage :/

Overplaying their damage is exactly what I'm not doing. I'm saying that without pets, shamans still beat clerics.

In my eyes you're not doing more damage per hour because you're spending longer on each mob to get that damage put out, and unless you think you can maintain full mana or close to it by frequent canni'ing through the fight or chain pulling I just don't see it. You can't speed your dps up without casting DD's, and the amount of canni work to keep up would set you back in heals or downtime to regen it.

That's the whole point - it doesn't matter how long you spend on each monster. I absolutely think that a solo shaman should not be nuking (unless there are dire circumstances involved).

Here is why it doesn't matter how long you spend on the monster. Let's forget about the EXP per hour thing and let's just look at how we kill a single monster.

You: spend 675 mana plus a root on killing a monster.
Me: spend 650 mana plus two roots on killing a monster. (Note, also, though, that I do a couple hundred more damage; let's just assume we do the same amount of damage.)

We may kill the monster at different times, but it doesn't matter. Why? Because you have to regain 675 mana to get back to full, and you start regaining that mana once you kill the monster. I have to regain 650 mana to get back to full, and I start regaining the mana once I cast my first root and my first disease+poison dot combo. The whole time that monster is getting dotted down, I'm meditating (except when I take a quick pause to re-root or re-dot). What does it matter whether the monster is alive or dead if we're doing the same thing, i.e. sitting on our asses?

So we have to get back about the same amount of mana before we take down another monster, and we both kill our respective monsters before we get the mana back, but I'm getting mana back considerably faster because I have canni and regen.

[Swish]

What does it matter whether the monster is alive or dead if we're doing the same thing, i.e. sitting on our asses?

So we have to get back about the same amount of mana before we take down another monster, and we both kill our respective monsters before we get the mana back, but I'm getting mana back considerably faster because I have canni and regen.

Then the issue for me is how long it takes you to regen that health and whether you need to throw yourself a heal to justify the extra mana regen from canni and keep yourself above whatever health threshold you set yourself.

The issue of magic resists vs poison/disease... I remember scourge resists occurring far more frequently on my necro compared with the heat blood/vampiric curse lines (not sure if casters are on a different table to priests or not, or whether its spell related) but I remember the same with my shaman on live. Magic based spells are less resisty in my experience on anything except golems and stuff that's well known to have high MR.

We'll just have to disagree, the only way to know for sure is to test it...and I don't see you holding your health with the amount of canni'ing you're saying will keep you ahead of a cleric. If you canni a lot, which you're suggesting, then you're either going to have to sit and regen that in combat or not. If in combat, you're going to have to do the same again after mob 2... its not free mana if you need to heal yourself to keep pulls going, and that negates the supposed mana advantage you're talking about.

[Estu]

Then the issue for me is how long it takes you to regen that health and whether you need to throw yourself a heal to justify the extra mana regen from canni and keep yourself above whatever health threshold you set yourself.

The issue of magic resists vs poison/disease... I remember scourge resists occurring far more frequently on my necro compared with the heat blood/vampiric curse lines (not sure if casters are on a different table to priests or not, or whether its spell related) but I remember the same with my shaman on live. Magic based spells are less resisty in my experience on anything except golems and stuff that's well known to have high MR.

We'll just have to disagree, the only way to know for sure is to test it...and I don't see you holding your health with the amount of canni'ing you're saying will keep you ahead of a cleric. If you canni a lot, which you're suggesting, then you're either going to have to sit and regen that in combat or not. If in combat, you're going to have to do the same again after mob 2... its not free mana if you need to heal yourself to keep pulls going, and that negates the supposed mana advantage you're talking about.

I'm talking absolutely zero heals here. The only time I would canni in this hypothetical scenario is if my health reaches above, say, 90%. From the math I did earlier, it's clear that casting regen is absolutely worth the cost in health, because it pays for itself over time (you wouldn't canni up the mana cost immediately, but rather as your health grew). The overall effect would be that you'd get considerably more mana over an extended period of time by meditating and cannibalizing than the cleric would.

Most of the mana would be coming from meditation just like with the cleric, but you'd also be getting extra mana from cannibalization. Again, the shaman is generating more mana over time, and spending less of it to kill the monster.

[Swish]

I'm talking absolutely zero heals here.

Then you're adding downtime to regen because there's no way you're chain pulling and I think you're not placing enough emphasis on upkeep spells... it's going to be a circular argument (if it isn't already), I've got an early start tomorrow but I'll come back to it, with the shaman's upkeep including pet health regen and the time it takes you to finish a fight I really don't see the shaman ahead.

[NoWaiJ]

while the shaman and cleric fought, the necromancer went in and cleared all of the specters.

necromancer 1
shaman + cleric 0

[Lojik]

If the shaman worships cazic they can fear kite specs or other undead. Pathing in the caves in feerrott is perfect for this. All you need is mana for 1 or 2 dots. Fear doesnt last long, but with 2.0 sec cast time can do it in between med ticks, and shaman can med whole fight. Haste for pet sometimes, but sometimes that means pet will outdamage you.

Also was good for fear kiting spectral keepers in Traks teeth.

[Swish]

It's Innoruuk for the snare necklace, the problem for the shaman there is it has a long cast time and it only lasts ~6 ticks. If he has to recast VotS twice he'll have to resnare at least twice if not 3 times.

[SirAlvarex]

It's Innoruuk for the snare necklace, the problem for the shaman there is it has a long cast time and it only lasts ~6 ticks. If he has to recast VotS twice he'll have to resnare at least twice if not 3 times.

Cazic is undead fear, so he can fear kite. The mob be running fast, so that's why he mentioned pathing being important.

A Shaman will edge out a cleric on soloing (as the maths have shown) on undead fights, but they also get the advantage of not *having* to target undead mobs only. Plus they get the advantage of a Fungi tunic being "free" regen to increase their kill rate, while the cleric can only rely on a manastone to do so (and in old world zones).

I've seen a Cleric with a Manastone basically chain pull mobs in Lower Guk, so that is some serious awesomeness when used correctly. But the typical case Shaman > Cleric. But the point still stands, Cleric is better than most think.

--

As for the question on what would happen if Nilbog and Rogean just "F you all", well, they'd say "F you all" and run their own private server. During a rather...tense...time on the server that was thrown out as a "warning" to all the entitled players. They'd be more than happy to take their project offline and just use it as a sandbox for their friends.

So basically to answer your question, tomorrow the server could be offline and there's nothing that could be done with it. But that hasn't happened in 4+ years, so it's unlikely. Until that day does come (history says it will someday), just enjoy yourself :)

[Lojik]

Cazic is undead fear, so he can fear kite. The mob be running fast, so that's why he mentioned pathing being important.

A Shaman will edge out a cleric on soloing (as the maths have shown) on undead fights, but they also get the advantage of not *having* to target undead mobs only. Plus they get the advantage of a Fungi tunic being "free" regen to increase their kill rate, while the cleric can only rely on a manastone to do so (and in old world zones).

I've seen a Cleric with a Manastone basically chain pull mobs in Lower Guk, so that is some serious awesomeness when used correctly. But the typical case Shaman > Cleric. But the point still stands, Cleric is better than most think.

--

As for the question on what would happen if Nilbog and Rogean just "F you all", well, they'd say "F you all" and run their own private server. During a rather...tense...time on the server that was thrown out as a "warning" to all the entitled players. They'd be more than happy to take their project offline and just use it as a sandbox for their friends.

So basically to answer your question, tomorrow the server could be offline and there's nothing that could be done with it. But that hasn't happened in 4+ years, so it's unlikely. Until that day does come (history says it will someday), just enjoy yourself :)

Actually spectres are pretty slow, so not having snare isn't too much of a problem.
Shaman also gets better equipment in regards to being more efficient solo, such as fungi to help with regen, epic and jbb for free dps.

It's Innoruuk for the snare necklace, the problem for the shaman there is it has a long cast time and it only lasts ~6 ticks. If he has to recast VotS twice he'll have to resnare at least twice if not 3 times.

Actually the real problem for the shaman with that strategy is that the effectiveness of DOTS is significantly reduced, doing 2/3 damage only. A feared mob still receives full damage from dots.

[Swish]

Cazic is undead fear...

Well I learnt something new today, never knew that existed :)