Why do devs keep making these retarded cash shop MMORPGs that all fail?

[Noselacri]

Has there ever been a pay4power MMORPG that wasn't a complete and utter fiasco?

Neverwinter had its soft release yesterday (the open beta scheme where they launch the game but reserve the right to excuse all problems with "it's still beta") and it's just blatant pay2win.

You can buy all sorts of nonsense with cash, like full heal potions with 200 charges when the normal potions available in-game are more like WoW's potions: fairly costly and heal you for like 30%. Since potions have almost no cooldown in Neverwinter, you can literally eliminate the need for a healer if you pay the dollar bills it takes.

If you die, you can click a button to insta-rez yourself right there for 5 Zen (half a dollar) and you can buy the in-game currencies with cash. You can also buy shit like AoE rez scrolls, bonus packs with insanely overpowered low-level gear, and all the other typical thinly-veiled pay2win shit.

Everything can technically be obtained via gameplay, but of course they've designed it so it takes so long it might as well not be possible. The aforementioned 200-charge full heal potion? Estimated time to grind: 55 hours at current Astral Diamond to Zen conversion rates.

You also have to buy bags with Zen (or grind for days and days and days to get enough AD to buy the Zen) and high-level companions have to be bought as well. Anyone so inclined can swing the credit card and buy their endgame purples that way, or exp boosts that let them level from 1 to 60 in an afternoon.

Needless to say, this game will be dead within the month. My question is: why the shitting fuck do idiot developers keep making games like this? Is it really profitable or are they just failing over and over, making the same mistakes as the last thirty groups of morons did?¨

It's a real shame because the gameplay is kind of fun but who in their right mind is gonna make a serious commitment to a game that quite literally lets people buy cheat codes for $$$?

[Sirken]

interesting.

i hadnt looked into this game at all, but a couple RL pals were harping in my hear about how they think this game will be the awesome. but thanks for the info ;)

only game in the future that im looking forward to atm is Elder Scrolls Online.

[SamwiseRed]

interesting.

i hadnt looked into this game at all, but a couple RL pals were harping in my hear about how they think this game will be the awesome. but thanks for the info ;)

only game in the future that im looking forward to atm is Elder Scrolls Online.

and eq next, cmon you KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO TRY IT!

[SamwiseRed]

also you should play EVE, one of the few MMOs where players pay to lose.

[Samoht]

also you should play EVE, one of the few MMOs where players pay to lose.

http://stoicstudio.com/forum/the-banner-saga-factions.php

[Swish]

Yep I have to say I agree... if I see a cash shop for any kind of gain I run a mile. I'd rather everyone paid a $8-$10 subscription a month and have the game fair - and it gets rid of a lot of toxic players at the same time (see - League of Legends etc)

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

Yeah I normally automatically quit any game I try that has cash shops. This is a bad way to ruin the immersion in game for me.

[stormlord]

also you should play EVE, one of the few MMOs where players pay to lose.
LOL. Ukm, eg...

LOL.

(there's some truth that)

Anyway...

The point is that instead of getting things in the game to be better, you're paying real-life cash for the same sorts of things. So you don't need to even know how to play the game, you just need real-life cash. Is that the problem? So it's like you're playing alongside people who have cheat codes. They're haxing the game.

The other issue, ofc, is how gimmicky it all looks. Open up hte in-game shop and it's like opening up a website strewn with advertisements. A salesman vomited on you. Ima giddy to spend spend spend.

In hte past, I've justified hte idea of allowing people who have less time but more money to play time consuming games by paying for odds and ends instead of spending time to get them. The idea on paper is real cool. However, I do not know if it will ever work well. Probably, but maybe not.

The issue is... players have different amoutns of time to play. How do you please everyone. Players also have different amounts of real-life cash on them. A company wants to maximize the money it gets.

[Ephirith]

I dislike even a cosmetic cash shop. I remember in WoW when they released that $25 Celestial Steed mount, I went to orgrimmar and everyone was fucking riding one. People were making fun of them and the typical response was: "LAL dont b mad bcuz ur 2 poor to afford 1 of these sick mounts raufelmao". Like most mounts, this one wasn't even a trophy signifying any kind of accomplishment or hard work... I'm reluctant to use the word 'immersion' after it's been meme-tized, but yea, ruined my immersion.

And that was the day I lost my faith in the invisible hand of human rationality.

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

I dislike even a cosmetic cash shop. I remember in WoW when they released that $25 Celestial Steed mount, I went to orgrimmar and everyone was fucking riding one. People were making fun of them and the typical response was: "LAL dont b mad bcuz ur 2 poor to afford 1 of these sick mounts raufelmao". Like most mounts, this one wasn't even a trophy signifying any kind of accomplishment or hard work... I'm reluctant to use the word 'immersion' after it's been meme-tized, but yea, ruined my immersion.

And that was the day I lost my faith in the invisible hand of human rationality.

Lol :p

[Anesthia]

Cash shops make me run away very, very fast. I enjoyed reading some of Syncaine's blog posts when a number of games were embracing the F2P model. Here's one:

http://syncaine.com/2012/10/25/save-the-f2p-children/

Buy a hotbar!

[stormlord]

Cash shops make me run away very, very fast. I enjoyed reading some of Syncaine's blogs when a number of games were embracing the F2P model. Here's one:

http://syncaine.com/2012/10/25/save-the-f2p-children/

Buy a hotbar!
You don't think you're being an old fogey by holding to your guns?

Well, I can understand it. I know my style is out of fashion too. I don't even own a portable. I don't text. I don't play Skyrim or WoW or the newest games.

I just hope people can find the right game for them evne if it's old fashioned.

[stormlord]

I dislike even a cosmetic cash shop. I remember in WoW when they released that $25 Celestial Steed mount, I went to orgrimmar and everyone was fucking riding one. People were making fun of them and the typical response was: "LAL dont b mad bcuz ur 2 poor to afford 1 of these sick mounts raufelmao". Like most mounts, this one wasn't even a trophy signifying any kind of accomplishment or hard work... I'm reluctant to use the word 'immersion' after it's been meme-tized, but yea, ruined my immersion.

And that was the day I lost my faith in the invisible hand of human rationality.
The problem with basing it on accomplishment is that this ties up hte game. It means you have to attach a length of time to the accomplishment. When you do that, you exclude players who might not have hte time (or inclination). So you make it purchasable. This allows you to have customers who have less time but more money. This (should) broaden your user base. However, as was mentioned by the Ephirath, it breaks immersion when people show off the things they buy without earning it in-game. It cheapens the accomplishment.

Is there a way to please everybody so that nobody has bad feelings?

Keep in mind I long played Eq even though I had bad feelings. So maybe it's not game breaking. However, I'm not playing it anymore. In fact, I'm playing a fairly hardcore game right now named Wurm Online. But even in that game players can purchase silver and silver can purchase most everything in the game; including labor. However, players still have to work and organize things. The game doesn't overly favor rich players. I'm sure with time it could. If the rich players start to become too common then the developers will want their money....

A good example of a game that became too expensive is Entropia Universe.

[Ephirith]

When you do that, you exclude players who might not have hte time or perseverance.

That's a good thing, that's what makes it an accomplishment. Handouts are boring for everybody, even casuals.

[stormlord]

That's a good thing, that's what makes it an accomplishment. Handouts are boring for everybody, even casuals.
How would you suggest that a game can please people of all tolerances? So lets say there's somebody that only can play 1 hour per day and another person that an play 5 and yet another that only players 2 hours every other day. And lets say that one of them has a salary at least 3x higher than the others. If the company wants their money, how should they go about getting it? And what about the poor player??

The idea is to make a game that works for every person, rich and poor, all walks of life. Why? Money. You want their money. A game that works for the most people will get you the most money.

The irony is of course that 80% or more of the money is in the top 20% of income earners. In fact, 1% of income earners constitute about 30% of total net worth. So if games start to tap into the top income earners, it's a given that they'll favor them. The trick will be not losing the poor players.

[Anesthia]

You don't think you're being an old fogey by holding to your guns?

Well, I can understand it. I know my style is out of fashion too. I don't even own a portable. I don't text. I don't play Skyrim or WoW or the newest games.

I just hope people can find the right game for them evne if it's old fashioned.

What guns? I thought I was just laughing at $2 hotbars and $50 hobby horses. I don't mind a useful cash shop, but the OP's thread title is relevant.

Back to playing WoW on my iPhone. :)

[Sirken]

and eq next, cmon you KNOW YOU ARE GOING TO TRY IT!

we'll see what they unveil on Aug 1 in Vegas.

but right now ESO is pinging the absolute fawk out of my gaming radar.

EQnext on radar, but much much lower. the ONLY great thing ive heard about EQNext is that they are making EQNext.

[Rhambuk]

$$$
even if it fails in a momth people will buy enough of that stuff to make up for years worth ofsubs

[Swish]

$$$
even if it fails in a momth people will buy enough of that stuff to make up for years worth ofsubs

I'm not so sure people want to dump their dollars on something if they're not certain of sticking around. I think custom mounts are justified but the best looking gear for me needs to be raid loot or at epic quest type level.

Perhaps buying an inferior stat version for considerable cash could be considered for those that want it.

If any MMORPG launched with the "no cash shop" promoted and just a $5-10/month sub, I think it would draw a considerable fan base.

Pissed off not just with online PC gaming but companies like Capcom (SFxTekken - not all characters released despite being on the disc) and EA (see that Sim City shit go down?, and BF3's ridiculous cash grab on things like custom servers where players can ruin your fun or make you switch teams).

[Rhambuk]

I'm not so sure people want to dump their dollars on something if they're not certain of sticking around. I think custom mounts are justified but the best looking gear for me needs to be raid loot or at epic quest type level.

Perhaps buying an inferior stat version for considerable cash could be considered for those that want it.

If any MMORPG launched with the "no cash shop" promoted and just a $5-10/month sub, I think it would draw a considerable fan base.

Pissed off not just with online PC gaming but companies like Capcom (SFxTekken - not all characters released despite being on the disc) and EA (see that Sim City shit go down?, and BF3's ridiculous cash grab on things like custom servers where players can ruin your fun or make you switch teams).

I used to work for adults with mental disabilities, the guy i worked with was super hardcore into mmo's he would steal anything and everything to buy that shit. He falsified one of those short term pay day loans, montel williams commercial, in his parents name for $500. ALL of it went to i think GW2 or eq2...whatever game he was playing at the time i think it was eq2 they have that store where you can buy mounts, and appearance gear etc. anyway yeah some people are nuts for that stuff

and what happened with sim city? I was super pumped for the new one but my pc cant run it so i try to avoid looking at it or i get sad

[EchoedTruth]

Has there ever been a pay4power MMORPG that wasn't a complete and utter fiasco?

Neverwinter had its soft release yesterday (the open beta scheme where they launch the game but reserve the right to excuse all problems with "it's still beta") and it's just blatant pay2win.

You can buy all sorts of nonsense with cash, like full heal potions with 200 charges when the normal potions available in-game are more like WoW's potions: fairly costly and heal you for like 30%. Since potions have almost no cooldown in Neverwinter, you can literally eliminate the need for a healer if you pay the dollar bills it takes.

If you die, you can click a button to insta-rez yourself right there for 5 Zen (half a dollar) and you can buy the in-game currencies with cash. You can also buy shit like AoE rez scrolls, bonus packs with insanely overpowered low-level gear, and all the other typical thinly-veiled pay2win shit.

Everything can technically be obtained via gameplay, but of course they've designed it so it takes so long it might as well not be possible. The aforementioned 200-charge full heal potion? Estimated time to grind: 55 hours at current Astral Diamond to Zen conversion rates.

You also have to buy bags with Zen (or grind for days and days and days to get enough AD to buy the Zen) and high-level companions have to be bought as well. Anyone so inclined can swing the credit card and buy their endgame purples that way, or exp boosts that let them level from 1 to 60 in an afternoon.

Needless to say, this game will be dead within the month. My question is: why the shitting fuck do idiot developers keep making games like this? Is it really profitable or are they just failing over and over, making the same mistakes as the last thirty groups of morons did?¨

It's a real shame because the gameplay is kind of fun but who in their right mind is gonna make a serious commitment to a game that quite literally lets people buy cheat codes for $$$?

Is this an expansion to the current D&D? Looks pretty awesome... hope it's not pay2win. Path of Exile is great because of that.

[Noselacri]

No it's a new game set in the same Forgotten Realms setting and with gameplay that's vaguely inspired by D&D. It's not D&D, they just made it look a little like it on the surface with the stats and such.

It's 90% pay2win. Depends a bit on your interpretation of pay2win, and some don't think it is unless there's actually stuff you can only buy for $$$ that's better than the best gear that can be obtained via gameplay. It isn't as bad as that, but it's pretty close. It's clear that the game is just made to try and funnel people towards the cash shop before they inevitably quit after a month.

You can purchase the RMT currency called Zen, with which you can buy a number of things ranging from bags (which, aside from like two quest rewards, can only be obtained by buying with Zen) to mounts and companions (basically like modern EQ's mercs) to an in-game currency called Astral Diamonds. ADs are like a separate currency from the largely useless coppe/silver/gold standard. You use AD to buy high-end items and can also trade it for Zen on the AH.

You can get AD by refining some crystals that you get from doing dungeons and such, but you can only create 24k AD per day, and you're not even guaranteed to be able to get that much in the first place. The conversion ratio of AD to Zen right now is something like 500:1, and a 24-slot bag costs 1500 Zen. That's 750k AD for a bag, you can't get them in any other way. It's 800k AD for just the tier 2 mount, I don't even wanna know what the higher ones cost. Actual gear costs even more than that, per piece. You can also get AD by selling stuff on the AH, but clearly not in amounts that make those prices reasonable. It'll take weeks and weeks of grinding just to get basic shit like bags and the best companions, not to mention gear. You can get gear from dungeons as well, but who is gonna take a game seriously when people can just legally RMT the best stuff?

It's just a cash grab game. It's not even great gameplay, it just has nice controls and physics. The content is literally just 5-man dungeons, including the endgame, and everything is 100% on rails. The itemization and class specs are super primitive and there are only five classes at the moment, with only one tank and one healer. It wouldn't be a good game even if it wasn't pay2win, but it could have become decent if they actually add content at a decent rate. The cash shit will kill it within the month, unfortunately.

There are all kinds of other examples, it's not just about bags and mounts. Crafting is barely viable if you don't pay extra to speed it up, for instance. You only have two fucking character slots unless you buy more. A goddamn respec costs 200k AD, that's the better part of a week's worth of AD for ordinary players. Basically everything is made to be so retardedly expensive that it's effectively impossible unless you pay their absurdly high cash shop prices -- the 24-slot bag mentioned above cost $15 per, and fucking keys to open lockboxes you find in the game cost $1 each and can only be bought with actual cash. Their forum fanboys keep insisting that it totally isn't pay2win because there's nothing that's literally unobtainable without paying, but in reality it's all carefully designed to be so prohibitively time-consuming to do for free that you feel like you only have two choices: pay or quit.

[MrSparkle001]

Isn't it the same people in charge of Star Trek Online? That game is a pay to win fiasco. It even has that ridiculous lockbox system where you buy keys for boxes that may contain that rare item you want but probably contain crap. It's basically gambling and some people are dumb enough to spend hundreds of dollars on it. Seriously, wtf?

The astral diamond mechanic sounds exactly like STO's dilithium mechanic. It's a ridiculous system.

It all reeks of asian cash shop MMO mediocrity (which most asian MMOs are lately), and if I'm not mistaken they are an asian MMO company so they're doing exactly what's expected, only they're fucking up beloved franchises. Star Trek? Doesn't get much bigger than that franchise but they fucked it all up. Neverwinter? It's beloved. Seems they fucked that up too.

(this game sounds way too much like Star Trek Online. So disappointing)

[Swish]

Popular franchises have all taken a dive I'd argue.

Star Trek, The Matrix, LOTR(O), Warcraft (while successful, the lore has been generally bent/twisted/ruined)...probably a half dozen others, D&D online?

Stat Trek is a special one though, people pay way over the odds for anything Star Trek related - DVD/Blu-ray boxset prices are just the tip of the iceberg, some signed photos go into the $1000s. What's another $100 to people like that? All because its Star Trek. I find that sad and amusing.

[Mandalore93]

I actually really enjoyed LOTRO through the first expansion. I feel like they really nailed the lore and feel of that universe extremely well in a very hard to hit category such as MMOs. The cash shop has become a bit bloated but most of that is cosmetic or just the free to play options to try and catch up to what the subscribers get.

[Rhambuk]

All because its Star Trek. I find that sad and amusing.

Makes me sad to think that there are people with this much money to throw away on literally nothing, nothing, nothing...

Some people shouldn't be allowed to decide what to do with their own money

[SamwiseRed]

matrix online was kinda cool. pve was repetitive so all the bluebies eventually got bored and left leaving a gankfest behind. lots of pvp to be had which was good. i liked the idea of 3 faction pvp (like sullon zek) and continuing the storyline from the movies was pretty interesting although we never got to see neo. before i quit Morpheus got assassinated.

[myriverse]

Is there really a difference between "pay4power" and paying extra for an EQ expansion that will no doubt include NO DROP items? I want Sleeper's Tomb loot, but I don't wanna pay for Velious! :\

[Rhambuk]

Is there really a difference between "pay4power" and paying extra for an EQ expansion that will no doubt include NO DROP items? I want Sleeper's Tomb loot, but I don't wanna pay for Velious! :\

If you had to buy velious, then buy st loot.

[skorge]

who cares, either way shit gets sold for cash even here on p99 RMT goes on (see the first main thread on the homepage), the company might as well try to make some money off of it instead of others...that way they are more likely to put more in to make the game better (fix bugs faster, etc)...everyone is entitled to their own opinion; and no i havent made cash on a game since dark age of camelot in 2000 or 2001; in the end it still comes down to is it a good game or not?

[gotrocks]

See, i think theres nothing wrong at all with cosmetic item shops, and i actually think they improve the experience for everyone (i for one dont mind seeing someone wearing a cool hat or having a neat mount or whatever - it's kind of cool). Not only does it make the game completely free to play and NOT pay to win (so everyone can enjoy it!), but in most cases when this is done well it provides the developer with plenty of money, often times more than they'd make if they went pure subscription based.

You can look at games like TF2 or DotA 2 for fantastic examples of this. In fact, in both of those games, some people are actually making a living off designing new cosmetic items for the game! Very cool.

I completely agree with pay 2 win being complete shit, and i avoid any game that uses that like the plague. Especially if the 'best' items in the game can be purchased - it just makes everything a waste of time. I'm not against some very, very light xp boost type items, so long as they aren't completely ridiculous (i've seen 1.5x xp gain - 2x xp gain used in games and it really doesn't tip the scales that much. Obviously the people who are willing to pay for that stuff end up leveling faster, but not that big of a deal in the end), but i'd prefer to just keep it cosmetic based. Another great example of this is planetside 2.

Developers need to realize, and fast, that making their game pay to win is only going to hurt them in the end. It may seem like a fantastic idea from a business standpoint at first - people end up buying tons of items and stuff right away and the developer makes tons of cash - but in the end its only going to make people leave, whether its because they get bored or because they are tired of playing with pay2winners. I think a lot of studios are realizing that keeping purchases to cosmetics only is really the only way to go, and im really excited about what that means for not just MMO's but games in general. These 'pay4looks' games are doing extremely well (when they are done right, it can't be half assed), and I like where thats taking us.

Hopefully the makers of neverwinter nights (is it bioware? im assuming it is, black isle went away long ago) are only doing this pay2win bullshit because its beta. I can see them justifying a beta release like that to pick up some extra cash for development, and then completely changing the model for release. I still agree that its a blatant and shitty cash grab, im just hoping that it changes, as i had high hopes for neverwinter nights (i love the forgotten realms setting - its such a cool place, especially when you include all the different planes and such), but if its kept the way it is after release it is likely and rightfully going to bomb.

Good topic though, OP, definitely warrants discussion. I personally feel that my opinion is correct (:D) but i know everyone has different views on how this should work, and those views are no less correct than mine.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

See, i think theres nothing wrong at all with cosmetic item shops, and i actually think they improve the experience for everyone (i for one dont mind seeing someone wearing a cool hat or having a neat mount or whatever - it's kind of cool). Not only does it make the game completely free to play and NOT pay to win (so everyone can enjoy it!), but in most cases when this is done well it provides the developer with plenty of money, often times more than they'd make if they went pure subscription based.

You can look at games like TF2 or DotA 2 for fantastic examples of this. In fact, in both of those games, some people are actually making a living off designing new cosmetic items for the game! Very cool.

I completely agree with pay 2 win being complete shit, and i avoid any game that uses that like the plague. Especially if the 'best' items in the game can be purchased - it just makes everything a waste of time. I'm not against some very, very light xp boost type items, so long as they aren't completely ridiculous (i've seen 1.5x xp gain - 2x xp gain used in games and it really doesn't tip the scales that much. Obviously the people who are willing to pay for that stuff end up leveling faster, but not that big of a deal in the end), but i'd prefer to just keep it cosmetic based. Another great example of this is planetside 2.

Developers need to realize, and fast, that making their game pay to win is only going to hurt them in the end. It may seem like a fantastic idea from a business standpoint at first - people end up buying tons of items and stuff right away and the developer makes tons of cash - but in the end its only going to make people leave, whether its because they get bored or because they are tired of playing with pay2winners. I think a lot of studios are realizing that keeping purchases to cosmetics only is really the only way to go, and im really excited about what that means for not just MMO's but games in general. These 'pay4looks' games are doing extremely well (when they are done right, it can't be half assed), and I like where thats taking us.

Hopefully the makers of neverwinter nights (is it bioware? im assuming it is, black isle went away long ago) are only doing this pay2win bullshit because its beta. I can see them justifying a beta release like that to pick up some extra cash for development, and then completely changing the model for release. I still agree that its a blatant and shitty cash grab, im just hoping that it changes, as i had high hopes for neverwinter nights (i love the forgotten realms setting - its such a cool place, especially when you include all the different planes and such), but if its kept the way it is after release it is likely and rightfully going to bomb.

Good topic though, OP, definitely warrants discussion. I personally feel that my opinion is correct (:D) but i know everyone has different views on how this should work, and those views are no less correct than mine.

It's cryptic / perfect world. We've got a game company with a history of shit game after shit game combined with azn cash shop pros. This can only go badly.

[Samoht]

Hopefully the makers of neverwinter nights (is it bioware? im assuming it is, black isle went away long ago) are only doing this pay2win bullshit because its beta.

neverwinter != neverwinter nights

[gotrocks]

oh yuck. i had no idea...

and i was 99% sure neverwinter nights was forgotten realms. am i wrong there? i remember reading about it and it was in fact taking place in the neverwinter area.

edit-

yeah i just looked it up and it is. too bad the developer is crap.

[nilbog]

re: subject

Money.

I doubt the majority of this trash is produced because of someone's 'vision'. A production company or group of investors proposes: can we invest X and expect a return of X(2) + (any additional). If that answer is yes, they contract a group of developers who work probably very little.. for little money, and release unfinished, unpolished and widely untested content.

For the developers it's just a job. For the production company, it's just money. In the end, they don't care about their reputation for releasing trash because it's often not the same developers that released their former trash. They make their X(2) and move on to the next one. This leaves the developers looking incompetent and players raging because the games suck and are little more than a money funnel for winning.

That's my opinion.

[gotrocks]

^^^ agree. this has been happening a lot lately. actually, this has happened a lot over the entire history of gaming... it just seems to be worse now because these 'freetoplay' games are such money sinks. corporate sucks.

[myriverse]

oh yuck. i had no idea...

and i was 99% sure neverwinter nights was forgotten realms. am i wrong there? i remember reading about it and it was in fact taking place in the neverwinter area.

edit-

yeah i just looked it up and it is. too bad the developer is crap.
It's all the same brand. Neverwinter = D&D Forgotten Realms = Neverwinter Nights.

But they are different games.

[Thulack]

Makes me sad to think that there are people with this much money to throw away on literally nothing, nothing, nothing...

Some people shouldn't be allowed to decide what to do with their own money

People would call you and i and many other retarded for spending 10-15 dollars a month to play a game were we got nothing other then pixels. Personally i spend 400 dollars a month on weed and have nothing to show for it except my sanity. It's all in the eye of the person with the money.

[Samoht]

It's all the same brand. Neverwinter = D&D Forgotten Realms = Neverwinter Nights.

No, no it's not. The publisher and the developer for NWN has had absolutely nothing to do with the latest iteration of Neverwinter.

Neverwinter != Neverwinter Nights

[HeallunRumblebelly]

re: subject

Money.

I doubt the majority of this trash is produced because of someone's 'vision'. A production company or group of investors proposes: can we invest X and expect a return of X(2) + (any additional). If that answer is yes, they contract a group of developers who work probably very little.. for little money, and release unfinished, unpolished and widely untested content.

For the developers it's just a job. For the production company, it's just money. In the end, they don't care about their reputation for releasing trash because it's often not the same developers that released their former trash. They make their X(2) and move on to the next one. This leaves the developers looking incompetent and players raging because the games suck and are little more than a money funnel for winning.

That's my opinion.

Their handling of STO pretty much shows this. Cryptic bangs out mmo's faster than I've ever seen. Terrible ones, too :P

[Rhambuk]

I don't mind the stores personally, i dont buy the exp pots or anything because i feel once you go down that path theres no turning back.

I do love the appearance gear! im all about how my char looks, the only raiding in wow I did were xmog runs and I admit i wasted a buttload of cash in eq2 on appearance gear.

I just cant help myself, if p99....nevermind

[EchoedTruth]

Has there ever been a pay4power MMORPG that wasn't a complete and utter fiasco?

Neverwinter had its soft release yesterday (the open beta scheme where they launch the game but reserve the right to excuse all problems with "it's still beta") and it's just blatant pay2win.

You can buy all sorts of nonsense with cash, like full heal potions with 200 charges when the normal potions available in-game are more like WoW's potions: fairly costly and heal you for like 30%. Since potions have almost no cooldown in Neverwinter, you can literally eliminate the need for a healer if you pay the dollar bills it takes.

If you die, you can click a button to insta-rez yourself right there for 5 Zen (half a dollar) and you can buy the in-game currencies with cash. You can also buy shit like AoE rez scrolls, bonus packs with insanely overpowered low-level gear, and all the other typical thinly-veiled pay2win shit.

Everything can technically be obtained via gameplay, but of course they've designed it so it takes so long it might as well not be possible. The aforementioned 200-charge full heal potion? Estimated time to grind: 55 hours at current Astral Diamond to Zen conversion rates.

You also have to buy bags with Zen (or grind for days and days and days to get enough AD to buy the Zen) and high-level companions have to be bought as well. Anyone so inclined can swing the credit card and buy their endgame purples that way, or exp boosts that let them level from 1 to 60 in an afternoon.

Needless to say, this game will be dead within the month. My question is: why the shitting fuck do idiot developers keep making games like this? Is it really profitable or are they just failing over and over, making the same mistakes as the last thirty groups of morons did?¨

It's a real shame because the gameplay is kind of fun but who in their right mind is gonna make a serious commitment to a game that quite literally lets people buy cheat codes for $$$?

http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/neverwinter/1226580p1.html


But all that aside - any game where I can visit Baldur's Gate / be a mercenary from there = ok win

[Swish]

I was in the P99 IRC a while back, someone was telling me how much he had made from Diablo 3... the game didn't seem to go down well with players. As a Diablo fan (who's never played D3) I find it sad that Blizzard had to trial that system on Diablo.

If its fun to accumulate whatever it is you're selling for cash, then that's great... but you have to wonder how deep people's pockets go, or whether there's some spoilt little shits out there with daddy's credit card.

Worryingly I think, is that kids will grow up not knowing what it was to buy a game that was complete without additional DLC or pay2win options in it. Companies like EA will sucker more and more people in just through the fact that people begin to consider it "standard practice".

For us long time gamers (assuming most people here are in their mid-20s or older), we either pay up or our choice of titles becomes increasingly limited. But that's why we love emulators like P99, right? ;)

[gotrocks]

No, no it's not. The publisher and the developer for NWN has had absolutely nothing to do with the latest iteration of Neverwinter.

Neverwinter != Neverwinter Nights

right, and i understood that from the start (though you're comment confused the HELl out of me at first), but its in the forgotten realms universe and centers around the town of neverwinter. this is what i was excited about, as i love the setting.

not so excited anymore, obviously

[Smedy]

The irony is that the gaming industry has been ruined by it's own success. Making games use to be a passion from people who were gamers themselves and taking risks and being original/creative was part of the process. The games we experienced in the 90th by far superseed any game produced in the 20th and 21th.

Games are simply no longer original because it's a business, huge corporations pump in money for developers to make the next 'World of Warcraft' or 'Call of Duty'. Games are being dumbed down to the point where you're almost not playing anymore, it's more like a movie playing and it sometimes stops and you have to make a A or B choice.

I think you'll find the really good games now days in the independent scene, all 'AAA' titles are bound to be garbage.

[Clark]

I was interested in Neverwinter until I heard it had cash shop. Cash shop in Perfect World Intertional freakin sucked even though the gameplay and pvp were amazing. Cash shop eventually made that game unplayable as they kept creating more and more items to buy.

[SamwiseRed]

The irony is that the gaming industry has been ruined by it's own success.

[Tecmos Deception]

The games we experienced in the 90th by far superseed any game produced in the 20th and 21th.

This is so true that it is sad. If I had to list my top 10 favorite games of all time, I bet 8 or 9 of them would be from before 2000... and I spent much less time looking for games back then, I just stumbled across stuff in bargain bins and about 1/3 of the time the game I found was just pure win. I can't imagine how many more games there are from the 90s that are 10x better than anything new being released now that I've never even heard of, let alone played.

[Thulack]

Nothing is as good as when you were younger.

[moklianne]

I partially blame the stock exchange. Companies that are privately held have more leeway, where as public ones have to meet stricter quarterly projected figures. An MMO has to be released by a certain date (even if its complete fail) to drive up stock values. Even if the game itself is complete garbage and fails in 3 months, they can reuse the entire engine and some art and release another MMO a few months after. They can keep doing this until a game 'sticks'. Even if the game fails quickly, they've also made their cash grab with an ingame store that they can post with their quarterly figures.

[EchoedTruth]

Nothing is as good as when you were younger.

It isn't even nostalgia at this point - the pinnacle of gaming (at least IMO) was 96-2003... look at the games made in that era:

System Shock 2
Thief
Half-Life
Deus Ex
Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Neverwinter Nights
C&C Red Alert, and other C&Cs
Starcraft
Diablo 1/2
EverQuest
Resident Evil 1-3
Final Fantasy 7,8,9,10
etc... etc...etc....

It's not even close lol

[Kagatob]

It isn't even nostalgia at this point - the pinnacle of gaming (at least IMO) was 96-2003... look at the games made in that era:

System Shock 2
Thief
Half-Life
Deus Ex
Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Neverwinter Nights
C&C Red Alert, and other C&Cs
Starcraft
Diablo 1/2
EverQuest
Resident Evil 1-3
Final Fantasy 7,8,9,10
etc... etc...etc....

It's not even close lol

You are right... if you backtrack 5 years.
Doom/Doom2/Heretic
The Legend of Zelda LTTP
2D Metroid games.
Mother (Earthbound)
Super Mario Bros. 3/World
Sonic 2/3/Knuckles
2D Megaman games.
Final Fantasy 5/6 (Strictly superior to 8-10)
Heroes of Might and Magic III

The era when design/gameplay/story trumped graphics before everyone was OMG 3D HURRR!!!!.
A couple of the games on your list are good, but the bulk of it is laughable.

[Noselacri]

What most of those games have in common is the fact that they weren't just follwing some recipe, they were trying something new. Maybe not FF10, I dunno, but games like Half-Life, Everquest, Diablo, Baldur's gate -- these are games that were clearly made by people who loved making games and took pride in making them as good as they possibly could. It's clear that nobody does this today, the money is the guiding principle in everything that happens in the industry. This is why every game feels discount and soulless.

[EchoedTruth]

You are right... if you backtrack 5 years.
Doom/Doom2/Heretic
The Legend of Zelda LTTP
2D Metroid games.
Mother (Earthbound)
Super Mario Bros. 3/World
Sonic 2/3/Knuckles
2D Megaman games.
Final Fantasy 5/6 (Strictly superior to 8-10)
Heroes of Might and Magic III

The era when design/gameplay/story trumped graphics before everyone was OMG 3D HURRR!!!!.
A couple of the games on your list are good, but the bulk of it is laughable.

Ehhh... I mean those are good games, don't get me wrong. But my measure of greatness = graphics + gameplay + *story* - which the ones you listed (and most games short of the RPGs of that era) are severely lacking in.

There's just no comparison between say, System Shock 2's story, and Metroid or Doom or Megaman... etc..

The graphics advances in the mid 90s allowed for games to be crafted that could create a living world / story to interact with (Deus Ex is a prime example) ... before that, there were just too many limitations to properly convey certain environments / scenes.

[Sirken]

The era when design/gameplay/story trumped graphics before everyone was OMG 3D HURRR!!!!.

Pras to Contra, Megaman2, Sid Meyer's Covert Action (fucking awesome game), Where in the World is Carmen Sandeigo?, Civilization2, Everquest1, and any/all text based MMORPGs before EQ.

its so god damned frustrating talking to these modern "gamers" (you know, the group that started with WoW, and think they are old school) about actual good games, just to be shot down with, but it looks like shit. and also when they hear about a new game and try to convince me to play it, the first thing they always say is "omg have you seen how awesome the graphics are"

i have a buddy with a half poopy laptop that he used to play SWTOR. and he hated playing on his comp (he usually used his roommates) cause it couldnt handle the game and hed lag out in pvp. so i tell him, turn off name titles, and turn down or off the particle effects, which are over the top in that game anyway imo. and he fucking tells me "No man, those graphics are the main reason i bought the game and rolled with a caster".

/holyfuckingfacepalm

as a player in EQ, unless i was soloing, i ALWAYS had everything turned off. because even an imaginary millisecond is an advantage in pvp

[Clark]

/holyfuckingfacepalm

haha

[Kagatob]

/holyfuckingfacepalm

We miss you in our guildchat, you should stop by more often.

[Anesthia]

I have more fondness for EchoedTruth's list. Deus Ex is simply righteous. And let's not forget Zelda: OoT ('98).

When it comes down to it, when I go back and play games from the past, I'm more likely to be found in 3D environments than in a Wolfenstein map editor. If I want to visit Terra & friends again, I usually watch a TAS (tool-assisted speedrun): tasvideos.org

[EchoedTruth]

I have more fondness for EchoedTruth's list. Deus Ex is simply righteous. And let's not forget Zelda: OoT ('98).

When it comes down to it, when I go back and play games from the past, I'm more likely to be found in 3D environments than in a Wolfenstein map editor. If I want to visit Terra & friends again, I usually watch a TAS (tool-assisted speedrun): tasvideos.org

Nice call with Zelda: OoT.. totally forgot that N64 fell in that era too.

I would safely say that 96-03 was the golden era of video games. That era was where we saw the biggest experimentation and advances in gaming (Anachronox... Fallout... again, Deus Ex), the advent of 3d allowed these guys who had big dreams to finally make big, crazy, complex games. Fast forward 10 years, and we have big, overdeveloped, oversimplified games. Money watered it down.

[EchoedTruth]

I dislike even a cosmetic cash shop. I remember in WoW when they released that $25 Celestial Steed mount, I went to orgrimmar and everyone was fucking riding one. People were making fun of them and the typical response was: "LAL dont b mad bcuz ur 2 poor to afford 1 of these sick mounts raufelmao". Like most mounts, this one wasn't even a trophy signifying any kind of accomplishment or hard work... I'm reluctant to use the word 'immersion' after it's been meme-tized, but yea, ruined my immersion.

And that was the day I lost my faith in the invisible hand of human rationality.

I think cash shops are inevitable nowadays. People want a choice in whether they fork over money each month. Even GW2 has a cash shop. The cat's out of the bag now, man. :(

[Swish]

I think cash shops are inevitable nowadays. People want a choice in whether they fork over money each month. Even GW2 has a cash shop. The cat's out of the bag now, man. :(

There's enough of a playerbase (even judging by posts in this thread as a sample) that would be drawn to a game that's a flat subscription with no advantage beyond paying your dues each month.

[citizen1080]

Nice call with Zelda: OoT.. totally forgot that N64 fell in that era too.

I would safely say that 96-03 was the golden era of video games. That era was where we saw the biggest experimentation and advances in gaming (Anachronox... Fallout... again, Deus Ex), the advent of 3d allowed these guys who had big dreams to finally make big, crazy, complex games. Fast forward 10 years, and we have big, overdeveloped, oversimplified games. Money watered it down.

I agree mostly. But we also have experianced a bit of a Renaissance regarding indie gaming. With steam making it easy to get games to market we get stuff like Minecraft, Terriara, Don't Starve etc. I am excited as hell about Starbound. Little indie group that sold 1million in preorders in about a week for their game.

Regarding the OP, they make them because they make money. And that as always is the name of the game. World of Tanks makes absolute shitloads of money.

[OMGWTF420]

only game in the future that im looking forward to atm is Elder Scrolls Online.

that one looks to be turning out pretty well. im also looking forward to ffxiv 2.0, its slated for a cross-platform release this summer. subscription based model afaik

[Sirken]

that one looks to be turning out pretty well. im also looking forward to ffxiv 2.0, its slated for a cross-platform release this summer. subscription based model afaik

personally i dont mind subs. id rather have subs than cash shops in game. and just about everything im reading about ESO is makin me smile hard as hell (except no player housing at launch, that makes me sad).

gonna rock Aldmeri Dominon in ESO, let all the trendy kids have their Ebonheart Pact



edit - heres like 45 vids on ESO - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhL9ZN0ldKg&list=PL7pGJQV-jlzDNBXGWlyGOuIqyMcqYQ9VK

[HeallunRumblebelly]

I agree mostly. But we also have experianced a bit of a Renaissance regarding indie gaming. With steam making it easy to get games to market we get stuff like Minecraft, Terriara, Don't Starve etc. I am excited as hell about Starbound. Little indie group that sold 1million in preorders in about a week for their game.

Regarding the OP, they make them because they make money. And that as always is the name of the game. World of Tanks makes absolute shitloads of money.

BOB! WE SHOULD PLAY STARBOUND WHEN IT COMES OUT :3

[citizen1080]

BOB! WE SHOULD PLAY STARBOUND WHEN IT COMES OUT :3

I am down =)

Starbound and ESO are what I am waiting around for. Not sure which faction I am going ESO wise.

Starbound looks amazing tho

[Kagatob]

I have more fondness for EchoedTruth's list. Deus Ex is simply righteous. And let's not forget Zelda: OoT ('98).

Stopped reading thread after this point.

All y'all kids are 20. :)

[citizen1080]

Stopped reading thread after this point.

All y'all kids are 20. :)

29..and echo'd is way better than yours. Although he should have added the metroid series. Sorry =)

[Swish]

Zelda: Ocarina of Time ... I didn't see the hype. Loved the 2 NES installments growing up, but thought it didn't translate well in a 3D world. Again though, Mario 64 wasn't my bag either... best thing about the N64 were games like WCW/NWO: Revenge and Lylat Wars (what should have been called Starfox 64 here but got changed for some weird reason).

[SamwiseRed]

not trying to promote EVE i swear!!!

but i love their setup. sub only, all expansion and game are included with sub.

[Nune]

Sorry, for a second I thought I was reading a thread on the P99 boards where people were looking down on paying money for specific items.

[Karafa]

that one looks to be turning out pretty well. im also looking forward to ffxiv 2.0, its slated for a cross-platform release this summer. subscription based model afaik

Want my Beta account for FFXIV AAR? I lasted literally 35 seconds before I closed out. Awful interface, awful graphics, awful combat system. I was really excited for it.. another let down!

[Anesthia]

Stopped reading thread after this point.

All y'all kids are 20. :)

35...and EchoedTruth's list is better than yours. :)

[Kagatob]

Correction then, your taste is shit. Enjoy your games that can be beaten one handed with your eyes closed. What do you want from your games?

[citizen1080]

Correction then, your taste is shit. Enjoy your games that can be beaten one handed with your eyes closed. What do you want from your games?

Thank you for your opinion...which means shit. You are one of the most negative douche bags on these forums. Mix it up a little and maybe people will care what you think.

[Kagatob]

I prefer 3d crapshoots to classic platformers. The "golden age" of gaming.

:rolleyes:

[Swish]

You are one of the most negative douche bags on these forums.

Yeah lighten up a bit Kagatob, you weren't always this negative :(

[Anesthia]

I also forgot GoldenEye 007 ('97).

One of the Nintendo Power game counselors claimed he could beat Ninja Gaiden (NES) with his eyes closed. The best I could ever do was not dying. :(

[gotrocks]

I'd have to agree with most of the people on here, 96ish-2003ish was a truly revolutionary time in gaming. The advances in graphics gave developers a chance to *really* tell a story, as opposed to having to read one in the manual along with snippets of text in between. Some good examples of pre-"3d age" games that were both fun gameplay wise and told great stories are:

Chrono trigger (probably fav snes game of all time)
Secret of mana
FF6 (3 in the US)
super metroid (really the entire metroid series, but it was perfected with the snes release)
super mario rpg (will always be a classic... plus i still try to get timed hits in every turn based rpg like this that i play, whether they exist or not)
legend of zelda link to the past
xcom
original civilization
master of orion


Obviously there were other fun games in the nes-snes era, but these were the titles that started showing the world games had more to offer than pixels and guns. They could tell a story, they could connect with their audience. They could be a new art medium.

But then developers started to really step it up, and we got what I still think is the golden age of gaming. That's not to say we don't have good games nowadays (and to be perfectly honest, people who say 'oh all new games suck, period' are just being intentionally negative and want to be stuck in the past. which is fine, but dont spread your misery to everyone else). These games took the ideas the games listed above started and really shouted out "games are here to stay, we can be emotional, we can be smart, we can tell a story, and we can do all these things just as well as movies or novels". Since then, we've seen tons of great releases, but these titles (and many more) are really what grabbed the worlds attention and forced people to see gaming for what it was: A new medium for conveying ideas and emotions, just like a book.

Half-life
Baldurs gate series (1, 2 and expansions), Planescape torment
final fantasy 7 (maybe not the best in the series, though some will argue it is, but certainly a revolution in the way the game is played and interacted with)
everquest
starcraft
fallout series
freedom force (amazing, dont knock it till you try it... it really brought comics into the gaming world)
grand theft auto
master of orion 2
halo
thief series
pokemon (undeniably one of the most important rpgs of all time for a number of reasons, whether you like the game or not)
mechwarrior series (this was actually released a litlte before 96 but since the majority of the titles came after that im including it here. That opening sequence for mech 2 was just mindblowing at the time)
age of empires
gran turismo/forza
system shock 2 (still one of the greatest games of all time)
Deus ex (also one of the greatest games of all time)
c&c series (red alert-red alert 2)
resident evil 1 and 2
goldeneye
super mario 64
zelda OOT
metal gear solid
civilization 2 and 3


Now, this is *not* a 'best games' list by any means. My favorite games list would look similar, but not identical to this list. What this is showing is the games that really took gaming as a medium and brought it to another level. These games raised the bar and said 'This is where we need to be, this is what people need to see and think when they see gaming. This is why we are protected under the first amendment - we convey thoughts, ideas, and emotions just as well as any other medium, and deserve the same rights as those other forms of media'

This is really important, because without these games the way we interact with video games could be quite different today. If it's your opinion that these games are all 'shit' or 'bad games', that's fine and you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're wrong. I say you're wrong, and people that have been in the industry for decades say you're wrong. Maybe not every game on this list was 'revolutionary' at the time, but many of them were, and many of them elevated gaming to an entirely different level. The games that came before this era were good, even great, but they just didn't do the same thing, they didn't leave the same emotional impact (with a few exceptions) and they didn't make us think like the titles above did.

There's really no other way to put it, these games changed gaming forever. They showed us what games could really be, and they paved the way for future games to expand and even improve upon what was set forth before them. Once again, if you disagree, that's your opinion, but you're wrong - and I challenge you to defend your position with anything other than nostalgia. Most - if not all - of these games consistently show up on greatest games of all time lists (granted, they show up with titles like those listed in the '2d era' section) and more often than not they are cited as changing the way we look at gaming. There's a good reason for that (even if 'best games of all time' lists are highly subjective and therefore next to worthless), especially considering these lists stay simiar to each other across different publications and websites.

They're just that good.One last time before I wrap up - if you disagree, i challenge you to state your thesis and back it up with whatever reasons you can (research and references not needed, this is just thought discussion) but I don't think anything you can say will change my or anyone else's opinion on why these games are great. Basically you're stuck in the 2d era because of a mix of nostalgia and a desire for things to stay the same, which is fine, but you are shutting yourself off from so many great titles in the process (especially now that we're having an 'indie revolution', right now there's basically two types of games, AAA titles and indie titles, and all the garbage that used to be in between is no longer being published,which is fantastic. A *TON* of these indie titles are throwbacks to the 2d era of games, and a lot of them are simply amazing! just have to know where to look!), which makes me really sad as a gamer. In any case, I felt I needed to write something up regarding what everyone has been posting about here. Feel free to discuss, agree, disagree, whatever you'd like regarding what I've laid out here in this post. I think if we can get another person or two to take kagatobs position and provide some good reasoning as to why his opinion is correct then we would have a really cool discussion here. i look forward to reading everyone's responses!

[EchoedTruth]

I'd have to agree with most of the people on here, 96ish-2003ish was a truly revolutionary time in gaming. The advances in graphics gave developers a chance to *really* tell a story, as opposed to having to read one in the manual along with snippets of text in between. Some good examples of pre-"3d age" games that were both fun gameplay wise and told great stories are:

Chrono trigger (probably fav snes game of all time)
Secret of mana
FF6 (3 in the US)
super metroid (really the entire metroid series, but it was perfected with the snes release)
super mario rpg (will always be a classic... plus i still try to get timed hits in every turn based rpg like this that i play, whether they exist or not)
legend of zelda link to the past
xcom
original civilization
master of orion


Obviously there were other fun games in the nes-snes era, but these were the titles that started showing the world games had more to offer than pixels and guns. They could tell a story, they could connect with their audience. They could be a new art medium.

But then developers started to really step it up, and we got what I still think is the golden age of gaming. That's not to say we don't have good games nowadays (and to be perfectly honest, people who say 'oh all new games suck, period' are just being intentionally negative and want to be stuck in the past. which is fine, but dont spread your misery to everyone else). These games took the ideas the games listed above started and really shouted out "games are here to stay, we can be emotional, we can be smart, we can tell a story, and we can do all these things just as well as movies or novels". Since then, we've seen tons of great releases, but these titles (and many more) are really what grabbed the worlds attention and forced people to see gaming for what it was: A new medium for conveying ideas and emotions, just like a book.

Half-life
Baldurs gate series (1, 2 and expansions), Planescape torment
final fantasy 7 (maybe not the best in the series, though some will argue it is, but certainly a revolution in the way the game is played and interacted with)
everquest
starcraft
fallout series
freedom force (amazing, dont knock it till you try it... it really brought comics into the gaming world)
grand theft auto
master of orion 2
halo
thief series
pokemon (undeniably one of the most important rpgs of all time for a number of reasons, whether you like the game or not)
mechwarrior series (this was actually released a litlte before 96 but since the majority of the titles came after that im including it here. That opening sequence for mech 2 was just mindblowing at the time)
age of empires
gran turismo/forza
system shock 2 (still one of the greatest games of all time)
Deus ex (also one of the greatest games of all time)
c&c series (red alert-red alert 2)
resident evil 1 and 2
goldeneye
super mario 64
zelda OOT
metal gear solid
civilization 2 and 3


Now, this is *not* a 'best games' list by any means. My favorite games list would look similar, but not identical to this list. What this is showing is the games that really took gaming as a medium and brought it to another level. These games raised the bar and said 'This is where we need to be, this is what people need to see and think when they see gaming. This is why we are protected under the first amendment - we convey thoughts, ideas, and emotions just as well as any other medium, and deserve the same rights as those other forms of media'

This is really important, because without these games the way we interact with video games could be quite different today. If it's your opinion that these games are all 'shit' or 'bad games', that's fine and you're entitled to your own opinion, but you're wrong. I say you're wrong, and people that have been in the industry for decades say you're wrong. Maybe not every game on this list was 'revolutionary' at the time, but many of them were, and many of them elevated gaming to an entirely different level. The games that came before this era were good, even great, but they just didn't do the same thing, they didn't leave the same emotional impact (with a few exceptions) and they didn't make us think like the titles above did.

There's really no other way to put it, these games changed gaming forever. They showed us what games could really be, and they paved the way for future games to expand and even improve upon what was set forth before them. Once again, if you disagree, that's your opinion, but you're wrong - and I challenge you to defend your position with anything other than nostalgia. Most - if not all - of these games consistently show up on greatest games of all time lists (granted, they show up with titles like those listed in the '2d era' section) and more often than not they are cited as changing the way we look at gaming. There's a good reason for that (even if 'best games of all time' lists are highly subjective and therefore next to worthless), especially considering these lists stay simiar to each other across different publications and websites.

They're just that good.One last time before I wrap up - if you disagree, i challenge you to state your thesis and back it up with whatever reasons you can (research and references not needed, this is just thought discussion) but I don't think anything you can say will change my or anyone else's opinion on why these games are great. Basically you're stuck in the 2d era because of a mix of nostalgia and a desire for things to stay the same, which is fine, but you are shutting yourself off from so many great titles in the process (especially now that we're having an 'indie revolution', right now there's basically two types of games, AAA titles and indie titles, and all the garbage that used to be in between is no longer being published,which is fantastic. A *TON* of these indie titles are throwbacks to the 2d era of games, and a lot of them are simply amazing! just have to know where to look!), which makes me really sad as a gamer. In any case, I felt I needed to write something up regarding what everyone has been posting about here. Feel free to discuss, agree, disagree, whatever you'd like regarding what I've laid out here in this post. I think if we can get another person or two to take kagatobs position and provide some good reasoning as to why his opinion is correct then we would have a really cool discussion here. i look forward to reading everyone's responses!

Pretty epic write-up there. A+

[gotrocks]

in needed to be said :)