Top WoW Raiding Guild Quits

[azxten]

http://www.pcgamesn.com/wow/top-world-warcraft-raiding-guild-quits-we-ve-basically-been-killing-ourselves-slowly-day-1

“Raiding for many many hours on end is fun, CAN be exciting, and at the end of it all can really prove who really wants that world first/us first/realm first the most,” he elaborated. “Unfortunately we (hardcore raiders) pushed too hard. Tier after tier we just keep adding to the insanity in both farming preparations and actual progressing. It's almost as if progression itself never really ends after a end tier boss dies.

Sounds similar to the situation on P99. There is always a subset of gamers for any game that "take things too far." Usually these types of gamers end up congregating on a few servers. However, with P99 there is only 1 server thus the end game raiding will always be dominated by the people who "take things too far."

It's not TMOs fault, its not P99s fault, its just human nature and the somewhat obvious conclusion of the single server classic ruleset environment we are playing in.

[citizen1080]

Psh..."Hardcore" wow raiders don't hold a candle to EQ raiders..live or emu. Have them go play in VT for 10+ hours straight or PoG and then we can talk about hardcore.

Valid point regardless tho =)

I raided on wow for 6 years and was GM of a raiding guild there during TBC era. So this isnt just wow hate.

[Kimm Barely]

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m11thjx3W11qh7gfao1_500.gif

[OforOppression]

Psh..."Hardcore" wow raiders don't hold a candle to EQ raiders..live or emu. Have them go play in VT for 10+ hours straight or PoG and then we can talk about hardcore.

Valid point regardless tho =)

I raided on wow for 6 years and was GM of a raiding guild there during TBC era. So this isnt just wow hate.

uhhh

let me tell you about 400 wipes, over 10k gold spent on repairs, and grinding for 8 hours a day in progression guilds

its the other way around, eq raids (classic or current) cant hold a candle to wow

you havent raided since TBC so i can excuse that i guess but wotlk till current had some of the hardest raids in a game i've played

[OforOppression]

Exodus is just mad that they keep getting beat out by DREAM Paragon and Method

[Autotune]

The world was shaped by men like me who dared to take things, "too far, man."

[OforOppression]

Exodus hasn't even been relevant for a while, not sure how "top" they are, Blood Legion is even ahead of them.

[Autotune]

Psh..."Hardcore" wow raiders don't hold a candle to EQ raiders..live or emu. Have them go play in VT for 10+ hours straight or PoG and then we can talk about hardcore.

Valid point regardless tho =)

I raided on wow for 6 years and was GM of a raiding guild there during TBC era. So this isnt just wow hate.

Hmm, idk. I have spent an insane amount of time raiding on both WoW (live) and EQ (p99).

I'd have to say learning the classic wow raids was a huge time sink for 40 people. We spent 10+hours in MC back when there weren't all these mandatory mods they have now. When most of the bosses weren't well documented and strategies varied greatly.

Going into WoW now is just boring if you aren't pioneering new dungeons/raids.


Raiding on p99, haha, it's a huge time sink because that's what they made it with variance and allowing training in VP. I'm sure that it will be different with the expansion dungeons/raids.

[OforOppression]

Considering we'll never get VT/PoG sit back and enjoy windows fagget

[Sirken]

Considering we'll never get VT/PoG sit back and enjoy windows fagget

why wouldnt you get PoG?

[OforOppression]

you'll never get velious

and i was 6 watch your fucking mouth

[baub]

Psh..."Hardcore" wow raiders don't hold a candle to EQ raiders..live or emu. Have them go play in VT for 10+ hours straight or PoG and then we can talk about hardcore.

Valid point regardless tho =)

I raided on wow for 6 years and was GM of a raiding guild there during TBC era. So this isnt just wow hate.

Did you push content? I personally had some of those 10 hour days in AQ/Naxx40 when no one had any idea what to expect, other than getting your shit pushed in.. a lot.

I've also had those everlasting VT raids where you essentially tank n spank everything watching boss hp drop 2% every minute.

Care to guess which of these experiences was more "hardcore"? :D

[OforOppression]

but he lead a TBC era raiding guild and raided on wow for 6 years theres no way he can be wrong

[citizen1080]

I guess my point was eq was a greater time sink. Yes you could spend 10 hours in aq40, but at what point are you just banging your head against the wall? The content was not designed to take that long. I've spent 15+ hours in VT in one session. No we wernt raping the zone...but the raid was meant to take foooooorrrrrreeeeevvvvveeeeerrrrrr. Ssra was my fav zone of cats on the moon.

We pushed content in tbc, but other then that i was able to look up strats for later content.

[citizen1080]

but he lead a TBC era raiding guild and raided on wow for 6 years theres no way he can be wrong

Don't take out your small penisy angst on me youngster.

[Noselacri]

its not P99s fault

I would argue that it is P99's fault, and that their inability to deal with this problem is the reason the server has 700ish players at peak instead of 3000. So many people have left because they realized the ceiling is artificially low due to the fact that there's no endgame unless you join one or two particular guilds -- very exclusive guilds that demand unreasonable things of their players because that's how you "win" at Everquest.

The problem is that P99 tries to emulate everything about Everquest except one thing: there's only one server. Instead of 20+ servers on which the unhealthily obsessed hardcores can spread out, there's just one server, and their playstyle completely destroys the endgame for everyone else. Everquest doesn't have enough content for more than like one and a half raid guilds, but you could always move to a different server where the endgame hadn't yet been completely monopolized, or where there was room for you in the top guild.

This "feature" is completely missing in P99, and the result has been disastrous. It's the #1 problem of this server, the #1 reason for people quitting, and the cause of endless amounts of grief and conflict. GMs have quit over the constant abuse that results from this, entire guilds have collapsed, and I'd estimate that about 75% of the players who have reached the higher levels on P99 have consequently quit the server after discovering that the best they could hope for was to farm Sebilis and level alts.

Failure to compensate for this is the reason P99 has only ever been merely good instead of groundbreaking and amazing. It's such a strait-jacket on the server, and look at the result: people are starving for an alternative to the point of giving a criminally bad server like The Sleeper the chance that it never deserved. Every time a new server pops up, hundreds of people flee P99 with hopes of the new thing being a cure to exactly one problem: the clogged and monopolized endgame. It's only because no alternative of reasonable quality has ever presented itself that P99 still sees numbers in the high hundreds.

[citizen1080]

I would argue that it is P99's fault, and that their inability to deal with this problem is the reason the server has 700ish players at peak instead of 3000. So many people have left because they realized the ceiling is artificially low due to the fact that there's no endgame unless you join one or two particular guilds -- very exclusive guilds that demand unreasonable things of their players because that's how you "win" at Everquest.

The problem is that P99 tries to emulate everything about Everquest except one thing: there's only one server. Instead of 20+ servers on which the unhealthily obsessed hardcores can spread out, there's just one server, and their playstyle completely destroys the endgame for everyone else. Everquest doesn't have enough content for more than like one and a half raid guilds, but you could always move to a different server where the endgame hadn't yet been completely monopolized, or where there was room for you in the top guild.

This "feature" is completely missing in P99, and the result has been disastrous. It's the #1 problem of this server, the #1 reason for people quitting, and the cause of endless amounts of grief and conflict. GMs have quit over the constant abuse that results from this, entire guilds have collapsed, and I'd estimate that about 75% of the players who have reached the higher levels on P99 have consequently quit the server after discovering that the best they could hope for was to farm Sebilis and level alts.

Failure to compensate for this is the reason P99 has only ever been merely good instead of groundbreaking and amazing. It's such a strait-jacket on the server, and look at the result: people are starving for an alternative to the point of giving a criminally bad server like The Sleeper the chance that it never deserved. Every time a new server pops up, hundreds of people flee P99 with hopes of the new thing being a cure to exactly one problem: the clogged and monopolized endgame. It's only because no alternative of reasonable quality has ever presented itself that P99 still sees numbers in the high hundreds.

Well said sir

[Nune]

I would argue that it is P99's fault, and that their inability to deal with this problem is the reason the server has 700ish players at peak instead of 3000. So many people have left because they realized the ceiling is artificially low due to the fact that there's no endgame unless you join one or two particular guilds -- very exclusive guilds that demand unreasonable things of their players because that's how you "win" at Everquest.

The problem is that P99 tries to emulate everything about Everquest except one thing: there's only one server. Instead of 20+ servers on which the unhealthily obsessed hardcores can spread out, there's just one server, and their playstyle completely destroys the endgame for everyone else. Everquest doesn't have enough content for more than like one and a half raid guilds, but you could always move to a different server where the endgame hadn't yet been completely monopolized, or where there was room for you in the top guild.

This "feature" is completely missing in P99, and the result has been disastrous. It's the #1 problem of this server, the #1 reason for people quitting, and the cause of endless amounts of grief and conflict. GMs have quit over the constant abuse that results from this, entire guilds have collapsed, and I'd estimate that about 75% of the players who have reached the higher levels on P99 have consequently quit the server after discovering that the best they could hope for was to farm Sebilis and level alts.

Failure to compensate for this is the reason P99 has only ever been merely good instead of groundbreaking and amazing. It's such a strait-jacket on the server, and look at the result: people are starving for an alternative to the point of giving a criminally bad server like The Sleeper the chance that it never deserved. Every time a new server pops up, hundreds of people flee P99 with hopes of the new thing being a cure to exactly one problem: the clogged and monopolized endgame. It's only because no alternative of reasonable quality has ever presented itself that P99 still sees numbers in the high hundreds.

Think there's a bit more going on in the shadows than you've given credit too, but this was very well put.

I've always attributed the massive poopsocking to the fact that for a long time now certain guild(s) has been making some cash from this game. Probably the only way to immerse a nerd further into his lore of choosing is to pay him to do it.

You must also realize not everyone is as versed on the EQEmu culture as some. I've been around since the early days, I never kept the same name twice (minus Maybach on X99 servers -> Sleeper) because it's much easier to operate under the radar here. You won't have people coming after you/targeting you. How many years has TZT had "Where our fun comes from ruining yours" as its site slogan? And how many years has it's fucking retard fledglings gone server to server doing just that. There's just this deluded, evil-orgasmic feeling some people get knowing they're ruining something for you. As time progressed on the 99's, it started to become a practiced coming-of-age thing.

The server turned TMO into what it is. NEVER has an upper echelon guild gotten to the top and said "Hey, let's let other people have some of our raids" yet they are viewed like they're the only guild in MMO history with this mentality (shitty "hey look we're good guys" Trak handouts are far from what I'm getting at). I remember scrub guilds training their Planar raids years ago, just because they couldn't raid for their own reasons. They still harbor scumbags, cheaters, confirmed exploiters and RMT'rs, I'm not giving them a shred of credit for their accomplishments - they kinda negated that from themselves long ago.

As truthful as your post may be, this is just a server that hosts pixels. What happens further beyond that was completely in the hands of the people who connected to said server, and now we have this.

[Autotune]

I guess my point was eq was a greater time sink. Yes you could spend 10 hours in aq40, but at what point are you just banging your head against the wall? The content was not designed to take that long. I've spent 15+ hours in VT in one session. No we wernt raping the zone...but the raid was meant to take foooooorrrrrreeeeevvvvveeeeerrrrrr. Ssra was my fav zone of cats on the moon.

We pushed content in tbc, but other then that i was able to look up strats for later content.

It wasn't designed to do it all in one sitting (could take your time and come back to finish it another day), I think that is what you're getting at.

MC, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx would all take quite a long time clearing in one sitting unless your guild had them on easy mode farm status (not sure many guilds got AQ40 to that status and even less for Naxx). Even then there was trouble mob/s that could wipe your shit in bwl, aq40 and naxx if you had slackers.

[Autotune]

The server turned TMO into what it is. NEVER has an upper echelon guild gotten to the top and said "Hey, let's let other people have some of our raids" yet they are viewed like they're the only guild in MMO history with this mentality (shitty "hey look we're good guys" Trak handouts are far from what I'm getting at). I remember scrub guilds training their Planar raids years ago, just because they couldn't raid for their own reasons. They still harbor scumbags, cheaters, confirmed exploiters and RMT'rs, I'm not giving them a shred of credit for their accomplishments - they kinda negated that from themselves long ago.

As truthful as your post may be, this is just a server that hosts pixels. What happens further beyond that was completely in the hands of the people who connected to said server, and now we have this.

This is true. When I joined TMO, they were nothing like they are now really. It's not for good reason either, like the quote above, TMO didn't really get welcomed warmly. I am sure even Harrison can/will attest to this.

I'd say that the mobs TMO gave up where legitimate at being sincere and trying to let the server have access to raid targets. I know there are people in TMO who are "good guys" and did/helped push those just to be nice. Yet, the people of P99 are such douchebags that they cried, bitched, moaned, complained, etc until TMO just said fuck it.

A great deal of TMOs raiding style and tactics are/was pulled from/learned from IB and DA, then expanded on. There are a few things TMO pioneered, but for the most part the tactics were ones used by IB/DA.

P99 100% made TMO what it is now and I always laugh when I see people cry about every little thing they do/don't do.

[OforOppression]

Don't take out your small penisy angst on me youngster.

just calling bullshit because 6 years would mean you've raided till at least the start of cata/end of ICC, if you had actually raided in those expacs you would realize the fault of your statement

[Lorraine]

Not sure why you guys are comparing WoW to EQ raiding here, simple fact is one has Open FiF 3-7 day spawns vs Instanced mobs accessible to everyone with numbers.

Getting keyed for HS could take you longer than getting keyed for Onyxia if you tried to camp the drops yourself, let alone comparisons to VP key (or Sshra temple, VT and let's not talk PoP flag shit here ).

The only time shit didn't die fast enough in WoW was when it was "designed" that way. BWL drages being immune to taunt making an entire faction unable to control aggro well and go with tank rotation, bugged C'thun, 4 horsemen needs of full tier2 tanks just for taunt/mocking blow success rates. Same bottlenecks (good decked-out tanks , melee with max'ed out resists, enough +healing, enough raid DPS) different flavor.

What made a difference though was people had enough experience in playing/raiding in EQ that it actually showed in WoW. You could simply tell, by the little things -- Like tanks LoS pulling casters in Wailing Caverns, or carefull pulling in Deadmines / Like rogues/mages/locks not attacking bosses at all in the first 8-10 seconds or switching to adds without anyone having to tell them to. Just small things. Add to that experience the later voice communication programs and add-ons (CT_Raid assist, decursing etc) and you had it.

Even the guild bans that Blizzard dished out, could tell you what was going on. Conquest (EQ raiding guild) got trashed for using Eyes of the Beast'ed pets to pull MC bosses at the zonein and kill them, because they were foolishly not leashed and the trash was not adding (more lucky than exploit).
Overrated got trashed for patch5 drop from Prophet to C'thun (direct violation) - granted Blizzard forgot to add loot tables to the real bosses inside AQ40 (pre and post twin emperors trash mob packs) which was what caused full clears take thrice the amount of time needed.


Gear repair bills VS exp loss.
Wiping inside Onyxia's instanced Lair vs wiping while trying to break Fear.
40 man AQ40 instanced raids with voice communication -VS- 90 or 110 or even 140+ man raids in Plane of Water (for flagging purposes) without voice com.

[Kika Maslyaka]

http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2010/gu_20100816.jpg

[citizen1080]

just calling bullshit because 6 years would mean you've raided till at least the start of cata/end of ICC, if you had actually raided in those expacs you would realize the fault of your statement

I have raided vanilla and every expansion for wow except for the latest. And I stand by my statement that eq was a bigger time sink.

[OforOppression]

filthy fuckin casual

[Pringles]

I have raided vanilla and every expansion for wow except for the latest. And I stand by my statement that eq was a bigger time sink.

Anyone who says otherwise is only kidding themselves; or has forgotten; or never raided in EQ before things became "farm" status.

[OforOppression]

filthy fuckin casual

[Clark]

http://www.gucomics.com/comics/2010/gu_20100816.jpg

lol

[Kagatob]

It wasn't designed to do it all in one sitting (could take your time and come back to finish it another day), I think that is what you're getting at.

VT wasn't instanced, if you took a break you'd come back and see that someone had done the rest of the work for you. :cool:

[Autotune]

VT wasn't instanced, if you took a break you'd come back and see that someone had done the rest of the work for you. :cool:

That's what I was getting at.

If you had to finish the WoW raids all in one sitting (at least the classic ones) you would be spending quite a great deal of time there (pre-easymode farm status).

[baub]

I guess my point was eq was a greater time sink. Yes you could spend 10 hours in aq40, but at what point are you just banging your head against the wall? The content was not designed to take that long. I've spent 15+ hours in VT in one session. No we wernt raping the zone...but the raid was meant to take foooooorrrrrreeeeevvvvveeeeerrrrrr. Ssra was my fav zone of cats on the moon.

We pushed content in tbc, but other then that i was able to look up strats for later content.

Well you would have to be a fool to argue that EQ wasn't a greater time sink :D

[Kagatob]

And that AHR neck, most mudflation resistant piece of equipment in gaming history.
Replacement in PoP? Nope, not even PoTime.
LoY? Hell nope.
GoD? Not until Uqua for some classes, Qvic for the rest.

[OforOppression]

>tfw ToGC runs in 30 minutes during WotLK

[Kagatob]

Boring as fuck, but the loot was just so good. (and some of it full of grief potential, AE food/drink sticks)

I remember getting my Blob2 hat on my wizard and never needing to use a lure spell until FRo.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

And that AHR neck, most mudflation resistant piece of equipment in gaming history.
Replacement in PoP? Nope, not even PoTime.
LoY? Hell nope.
GoD? Not until Uqua for some classes, Qvic for the rest.

talisman of vah kerrath. dat effect. Never had a use for it on my CLR, think it was melee shit :P

[Knuckle]

but he lead a TBC era raiding guild and raided on wow for 6 years theres no way he can be wrong

diggles getting extra mad for a fatty, direct that energy into a workout program....


p90x
crossfit
etc.

[Kagatob]

talisman of vah kerrath. dat effect. Never had a use for it on my CLR, think it was melee shit :P

What did you wear over it on a cleric then? It was bonkers stats/resists +175 hp/mana/sta and +8 regen/mana regen. The rest of the effects were icing to top it off.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

VT wasn't instanced, if you took a break you'd come back and see that someone had done the rest of the work for you. :cool:

contested content. huh. funny stuff. why next thing you are going to start saying there should be persistent game worlds where if you snooze you lose.

Barring some strange system of lockouts, or some even harder to implement guild roster = raid force rule, which I have no concrete ideas how either could be done, p99 is ending up exactly the way this game can only end up. Top heavy, zerged, farmed, spawn camped.

The real-time contested (as opposed to puzzle-mobs instanced time sinks) time sink aspect (eg, poopsocking) that used to limit *many* eq servers (just only so many batphonable players to go around) just can't happen with a 12 year old game, simply because the project cannot expect that vast a player base. There simply is not enough players, and it has little to do with beefs about what the lvl 60's are doing. Not from my perspective anyway. It's an old game. And given a single server project, how to solve the high end problem? Game update 666:

- all end game gear rolls a save vs rust monster once a week. you lose, it poofs, get back to work. Rust monster got hungry, what ya gonna do? stop crying. you knew the risks. or maybe you didn't. But its p666; the devil's server.

- zone lockouts. Very classic! I'm solving problems here, fuck yer classic BS. Could be done similar to earlier eq2. Pick your target, and hold the zone, because if you zone your raid force out, your guild is locked for 48 hours.

- But wait a second! We are zergish, we are like the Mormons of gaming, we all have 37 characters! We have 8 raid forces! No you don't. Accounts with active lvl 60's can easily be linked to a guild, and any 50+ char on such account is part of that guild's nominal raid force. And you only can field one raid force at a time, even if you change members in and out. Wait, dey tuk yer alts?

It's p666. deal.

or, we could just continue as is, and just wait for the usual every-few years usually internal psycho-drama that always ends up breaking up a zerg guild.

Take yers time. But there is nothing that is going to change the approximate # of people that want to play this game "beneath" the top end gang. As to the top end gang, I just do not buy into the notion they would or could ever leave, and even if they did, a fresh crop of die hards will find the opportunity too irresistable.

Truth. I'd hit it.

oh: since raid force leaving zone = lockout, a wipe = a lockout. deal. chew slower.

[Kagatob]

^ every single one of those ideas are terrible. You'd be more successful arguing with the people on this server that they should use instances which in itself is laughable. :)

[Autotune]

^ every single one of those ideas are terrible. You'd be more successful arguing with the people on this server that they should use instances which in itself is laughable. :)

Especially because all the code for instances was forever removed by Rogean.

[Kagatob]

Regardless of the problems that exist with the inflated economy/community, I'd still take it any day over having instances and no community whatsoever.

[EchoedTruth]

Regardless of the problems that exist with the inflated economy/community, I'd still take it any day over having instances and no community whatsoever.
^^^^^^^^^^^^