So when did classic get rid of xp penalties?

[Cribanox]

titles says it all so I know when we will try and remove them on this server and when I can get my sanity back.

[President]

titles says it all so I know when we will try and remove them on this server and when I can get my sanity back.

Don't think this server will ever have them removed.

[xinux]

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=10818&page=6

[doacleric]

XP penalties of any form (race, class) were never removed during classic, or even during Kunark and Velious lifetimes.

[Thoughtseize]

Class based exp was removed in Velious

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

[Oogmog]

They were removed in Velious, actually. Link was posted in the other thread.

[Tseng]

I could have sworn XP penalties were still in during Luclin. Maybe I'm crazy.

[Thoughtseize]

Race penalties yes, class penalties no

[Bumamgar]

The fixes done to make XP true to classic were done with full knowledge of the producer's letter and the changes mid-Velious. When this server reaches that point in the timeline it will be trivial to bring p1999 in line with those changes.

[Sarkhan]

These threads are a good read :-)

Overall I love how true to classic this server is and plan on sticking around.

[RKromwell]

So in the time in between, some classes will just be shunned.

/shrug

[YendorLootmonkey]

So in the time in between, some classes will just be shunned.

/shrug

Gotta make it feel like 1999 all over again, amirite?

[Sarkhan]

Sometimes there are things that just suck about certain games. We wish we could change but in the end, gotta play the game how it is and just try to enjoy it. People knew of the challenges when they started and have to go with it...

That won't stop people (including me) from inquiring about certain aspects though haha

[RKromwell]

Gotta make it feel like 1999 all over again, amirite?


If the pattern holds, ranger only equipment will bottom out in no time. You won't be able to give the shit away.

[mimixownzall]

Gotta make it feel like 1999 all over again, amirite?

A VAST majority of people did not know that it was a shared exp hit until well into Kunark. When the cat was out of the bag, THEN people started ignoring hybrids/monks/choir boys. Verant was then forced to stop it.

[RKromwell]

No, rangers got kicked in the teeth right out of the starting blocks. We went from being able to tank in the old world to getting shredded in RoK. The mobs hit so much harder, we did not have the def to hold up. I was level 35 when RoK hit and it made the next few months a bitch because of the whole Rangers suck or Ranger Down. Could not get a group to save my life.

[danethor_sol_ro]

im pretty sure ranger suffered from bad rep way before RoK as well.

ill never know what they were thinking to put the penalty in..
pallies?hmm.
sk? maybe.
bard? prolly.
ranger? no?! why? cant solo as well as casters, cant camp fbss all day like they do. cant travel/avoid death like casters. cant bind.well we do get sow at 39 when everybody can easily afford sow pots or camp ac for 1 day to have clicky boots..yay:D oh well. /qq off. but if they fixed rogues maybe theres light at the end of the tunnel? wtb rain caller with procs and spam hammer mod! and arrow stacks of 1000! hehe

[Thoughtseize]

No one is saying rangers didn't suffer a bad rep prior to Kunark,

The difference between p99 and 1999 is the amount of knowledge the players have. The populace of p99 has a far more comprehensive knowledge of the game mechanics than that of 1999.

A large percentage of the p99 populace will understand from this moment on that grouping with hybrids drastically effects your personal exp gain - that was not true on live for some time. When it became true on live what did Sony do? They fixed it.

[Bumamgar]

You do realize that the XP fixes only made the in-game experience match what has been stated in the FAQ and by the devs since the beginning?

Prior to the fix, Class/Race penalties were broken (specifically, racial penalties/bonuses were being applied to the wrong races, resulting in Ogres actually receiving the XP bonus of Halflings, and Dwarves receiving the XP penalty of Trolls, among other things)

Prior to the fix, the actual percentage of the penalties/bonuses were significantly lower than they should be (instead of a 40% penalty for being a Hybrid, it was a 28% penalty, etc).

Now the in-game penalties match what the players actually THOUGHT they were before (based on the FAQ and player conversations).

[Vexden]

I fully understand this wanting to keep it classic.

What I don't understand is why be so hard headed on keeping something "classic" but allow other things to be different.

Good example is the 9th spell gem, the different / updated client, the new player models that are allowed (server should force client side model detection), the mob pathing updated to where you cannot outrun mobs by using the strafe method. Those are just a few things that are NOT Classic. I think it almost seems a bit hypocritical to pick and choose what you think should be "classic" and what "isn't"

I can't express enough even with this post how grateful I >AM< about the devs making this server the way it has been. This whole thing being brought back has really sparked a new mmorpg love. It just gets very frustrating when certain things do not make sense.

I would think that you could keep the classic feel, without discrimating classes / races by putting a penalty a certain way (that was later changed anyway) to make it to where no one wants to group with them.

[holkan]

I fully understand this wanting to keep it classic.

What I don't understand is why be so hard headed on keeping something "classic" but allow other things to be different.

Good example is the 9th spell gem, the different / updated client, the new player models that are allowed (server should force client side model detection), the mob pathing updated to where you cannot outrun mobs by using the strafe method. Those are just a few things that are NOT Classic. I think it almost seems a bit hypocritical to pick and choose what you think should be "classic" and what "isn't"

I can't express enough even with this post how grateful I >AM< about the devs making this server the way it has been. This whole thing being brought back has really sparked a new mmorpg love. It just gets very frustrating when certain things do not make sense.

I would think that you could keep the classic feel, without discrimating classes / races by putting a penalty a certain way (that was later changed anyway) to make it to where no one wants to group with them.

they are limited by what they can change anything server side is an easy fix client fixes / global emu fixes like pathing are MUCH harder and more time consuming so it will take them a long time to fix. Fixing XP penalties I'm sure was not very hard

Also I'm not even sure how they'd get client fixes in we'd obviously have to download fixes or be patched in some way.

[Aeolwind]

the mob pathing updated to where you cannot outrun mobs by using the strafe method.

This wasn't a pathing change, it was a run speed change. You can outrun them using strafing & jumping, I tested this many times in beta by myself AND with other testers. .01 slower and it is completely trivial to escape, no strafing/jumping required. You are out of melee range in 2-3 hits. .01 faster and you have no chance of escape.

Once someone starts looking at the mob attack range/attack style this can be revisited & adjustments made to mob speed.

[Vexden]

This wasn't a pathing change, it was a run speed change. You can outrun them using strafing & jumping, I tested this many times in beta by myself AND with other testers. .01 slower and it is completely trivial to escape, no strafing/jumping required. You are out of melee range in 2-3 hits. .01 faster and you have no chance of escape.

Once someone starts looking at the mob attack range/attack style this can be revisited & adjustments made to mob speed.

Still NOWHERE near classic, as the diagnal strafe / run was more than .01

Out of the whole post, it is sad that is the only thing that was replied on.

Either way, at least I know someone read it.

[Extunarian]

Still NOWHERE near classic, as the diagnal strafe / run was more than .01

This doesn't make sense...are you saying that jumping/strafing effectively raised your run speed to over 1.01?

It sounds like Aoelwind and other spent a long time tweaking mob run speed one hundredth at a time. Your off-the-cuff estimates don't really hold water against the kind of empirical evidence he has purportedly gathered.

[Bumamgar]

Still NOWHERE near classic, as the diagnal strafe / run was more than .01

Out of the whole post, it is sad that is the only thing that was replied on.

Either way, at least I know someone read it.
Vexden, we know there are a lot of things that aren't perfect and true to classic on this server. The list of changes is a mile long and grows nearly every day.

There are only a few devs, and the title "Developer" actually covers a wide range of skillsets and duties. Some developers know C++ and work on the source code for the server, other developers don't know C++ and work on spawn points, quests, etc. Different issues require different skill sets to resolve. Some issues require multiple skillsets to resolve. Some issues are impossible to resolve due to the client we are forced to use. We fix what we have the skills and time to fix.

Full disclosure: I play an Ogre Warrior on p1999. I leveled up with my wife, a Dark Elf Cleric, and we noticed fairly early on that I was earning XP faster than she was, which shouldn't be the case. I raised the issue to Nilbog and Rogean and they agreed to let me look at the XP portion of the p1999 source code. I worked on it and noticed a variety of issues with the XP system regarding racial penalties, grouping bonuses, XP split for group members, etc. These issues and fixes were discussed with the devs for weeks and a lot of research was done to determine what would be as close to classic as possible. Care was taken to avoid changing any players current level. The systems were tested on my personal server, then on the p1999 Test server (first by devs, then by players). Once they were deemed stable and approved, they were patched live.

Net result, my wife and I noticed that I was personally gaining XP way too fast, and I fixed it, nerfing myself in the process. :)

[Vexden]

This doesn't make sense...are you saying that jumping/strafing effectively raised your run speed to over 1.01?

It sounds like Aoelwind and other spent a long time tweaking mob run speed one hundredth at a time. Your off-the-cuff estimates don't really hold water against the kind of empirical evidence he has purportedly gathered.

Actually no.. it was a diagnal run. you would hold your forward and strafe key at the same time while using your mouse turned just a bit to make sure you would run in a straight line. I believe this caused the mob to not path exactly straight. So it would not really make you run faster, but make the mob go slower if I understand it right.

[Vexden]

Vexden, we know there are a lot of things that aren't perfect and true to classic on this server. The list of changes is a mile long and grows nearly every day.

There are only a few devs, and the title "Developer" actually covers a wide range of skillsets and duties. Some developers know C++ and work on the source code for the server, other developers don't know C++ and work on spawn points, quests, etc. Different issues require different skill sets to resolve. Some issues require multiple skillsets to resolve. Some issues are impossible to resolve due to the client we are forced to use. We fix what we have the skills and time to fix.

Full disclosure: I play an Ogre Warrior on p1999. I leveled up with my wife, a Dark Elf Cleric, and we noticed fairly early on that I was earning XP faster than she was, which shouldn't be the case. I raised the issue to Nilbog and Rogean and they agreed to let me look at the XP portion of the p1999 source code. I worked on it and noticed a variety of issues with the XP system regarding racial penalties, grouping bonuses, XP split for group members, etc. These issues and fixes were discussed with the devs for weeks and a lot of research was done to determine what would be as close to classic as possible. Care was taken to avoid changing any players current level. The systems were tested on my personal server, then on the p1999 Test server (first by devs, then by players). Once they were deemed stable and approved, they were patched live.

Net result, my wife and I noticed that I was personally gaining XP way too fast, and I fixed it, nerfing myself in the process. :)

I fully understand how tedious it can be to do something for a game you love, and not receive any money for it. I give kudo's to all of you guys and the work you do. I do too understand the xp ideal and the PERSONAL xp penalties that one should receive.

The >ONLY< concern I have is the xp penalty that is given to the group. It is bad enough to receive the penalty personally, but when it is handed to the group as well, that is where I think it is unfair. (As mentioned before, groups will reserve the right to let hybrids in).

I hate to say it, but no matter how good someone is at their class, how nice they are, if their direct grouping causes me to almost double my time to get the same amount of xp as someone else, I would want to group someone else instead.

[Hidn]

Nerfing yourself ... You're already level 48 though ... ;)

[dacduster]

So....It's YOUR fault :p


Vexden, we know there are a lot of things that aren't perfect and true to classic on this server. The list of changes is a mile long and grows nearly every day.

There are only a few devs, and the title "Developer" actually covers a wide range of skillsets and duties. Some developers know C++ and work on the source code for the server, other developers don't know C++ and work on spawn points, quests, etc. Different issues require different skill sets to resolve. Some issues require multiple skillsets to resolve. Some issues are impossible to resolve due to the client we are forced to use. We fix what we have the skills and time to fix.

Full disclosure: I play an Ogre Warrior on p1999. I leveled up with my wife, a Dark Elf Cleric, and we noticed fairly early on that I was earning XP faster than she was, which shouldn't be the case. I raised the issue to Nilbog and Rogean and they agreed to let me look at the XP portion of the p1999 source code. I worked on it and noticed a variety of issues with the XP system regarding racial penalties, grouping bonuses, XP split for group members, etc. These issues and fixes were discussed with the devs for weeks and a lot of research was done to determine what would be as close to classic as possible. Care was taken to avoid changing any players current level. The systems were tested on my personal server, then on the p1999 Test server (first by devs, then by players). Once they were deemed stable and approved, they were patched live.

Net result, my wife and I noticed that I was personally gaining XP way too fast, and I fixed it, nerfing myself in the process. :)

[YendorLootmonkey]

I fully understand how tedious it can be to do something for a game you love, and not receive any money for it. I give kudo's to all of you guys and the work you do. I do too understand the xp ideal and the PERSONAL xp penalties that one should receive.

The >ONLY< concern I have is the xp penalty that is given to the group. It is bad enough to receive the penalty personally, but when it is handed to the group as well, that is where I think it is unfair. (As mentioned before, groups will reserve the right to let hybrids in).

I hate to say it, but no matter how good someone is at their class, how nice they are, if their direct grouping causes me to almost double my time to get the same amount of xp as someone else, I would want to group someone else instead.

This.

We didn't know this back in 1999. Ten years later, now we do. SOE fixed it when we found out, so as to not make it more difficult for hybrids to find groups. Now we have a unique situation where we know the penalty is shared but it is not fixed. This condition did not happen in classic.

[zeval31]

This.

We didn't know this back in 1999. Ten years later, now we do. SOE fixed it when we found out, so as to not make it more difficult for hybrids to find groups. Now we have a unique situation where we know the penalty is shared but it is not fixed. This condition did not happen in classic.

yeah so what's the point in keeping the broken, unfair, unpleasing to everyone, later modified, xp sharing method in the current game ? It was corrected later. Since now we know better from the beginning, wouldn't it be sensible to correct right now ?

[Qaedain]

No, because fixing it wouldn't be classic.

(In b4 "but P99 isn't really classic")

[YendorLootmonkey]

No, because fixing it wouldn't be classic.

(In b4 "but P99 isn't really classic")

"Knowing about the hybrid XP penalty being shared across the group and it not being corrected" isn't classic.

[Vexden]

Face it, there are so many little things that will make this game NEVER be 100% classic, why not just admit that it is a game with a classic feel?

On top of that, why not make it so people enjoy playing the game. It is one thing to get penalties that you yourself have to live with because you made the choice yourself, why make it worse and have it shared with others?

Broken record? Beating a dead horse? I think it just doesn't make sense. Someone earlier posted "hey if anything Hybrids are getting buffed because the xp will be faster". NOT True if they aren't allowed in the good groups with people that know about the shared penalty. It is bad when HARD HEADED Sony figures out that this is discrimination, so they change it, because that is what it is. Sorry Troll SK's aren't allowed to ride in the front of the BUS, must sit in the back. (There is your classic for you)

[Landis]

For those that haven't seen it here's how the original EQ team felt about experience penalties. Yeah it came out during Velious, but if you read the whole article you'll see the solution wasn't trivial to implement.

Experience Penalties - Resolutions

Over the past week the EverQuest team has been considering experience penalties in all their forms. We had many meetings where the issue was hotly debated from both sides. We had to consider not only the effect on the individual player, but also the effect of any changes on the game as a whole. Eventually, we nearly unanimously decided the following:


1. Race-based penalties are appropriate. An ogre, for instance, does indeed make a better warrior than a halfling. It is not so little that the faction and size problems make up for it, and not so much that it is really unbalancing at upper levels, but enough that the penalty should apply. Secondly, the penalty is not so severe (compared with class-based penalties) that it would cause groups to break up on the journey from one to sixty due to level differences.

2. Class-based penalties are not appropriate. Classes are roughly equivalent in power throughout the level ranges, and the versatility does not make up for that penalty. In fact, the majority of changes made to classes in the name of balance in the last year were based on the assumption that, at the high end, each class should still be roughly as needed and balanced as any other.

3. Penalties, in any form, should not be shared with the group. Players know that no one class is immensely more powerful/valuable than another, and as such it is not fair to ask them to share a burden. If classes with penalties were really more powerful or valuable than the other classes, then it might be right, but that isn't the case here. Furthermore, sharing of penalties causes people to reject potential group members on the basis of them "sucking" too much experience.

4. We're going to fix it.

5. Class-based experience bonuses (which warriors and rogues get) are also not appropriate, as they cannot be so if penalties are not. However, we've decided to leave this as-is, since the bonus is not so severe as to be unbalancing. Bottom line: we don't feel the bonus is enough to warrant a fix that could be interpreted as a 'nerf'.

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

[zeval31]

No, because fixing it wouldn't be classic.

(In b4 "but P99 isn't really classic")

so the philosophy is not to correct known bugs and know issues "because that wouldn't be classic" ? even though those were eventually amended during Classic era by the developpers themselves ? Seems a bit tough to me.

Don't get me wrong, I am really thankful for the wonderful works the devs and the community have put so far and for what will be coming in the future.


This or I'm completely misguided (which is also possible)

[Vexden]

Thank you Landis, I was trying to find that post.

I think their team explains it best, and it makes sense. I have no idea why this team is being so hard headed against this.

I am not even a class that is effected by the change, but I do play this class to group. Come on guys, listen to reason.

[holkan]

I really dont think you're going to change their mind on this, its like asking them to add pok books or the bazaar to them. They just aren't going to do it they want to follow the time line of the game as closely as they can the things that suck and the things that are great. Any changes they dont put in is simply because the fix is probably clientside so they have to work with what they got.

[astarothel]

This is a classic server. That means where possible, given client limitations that exist, they will endeavour to make things as classic as possible. If you can confirm certain things that aren't classic and can be changed, post it and let the devs know.

You came to play here knowing it was going to be classic. Don't cry for it to be classic when convenient. Newsflash: Classic EQ wasn't convenient.

[eqholmes]

Gotta be honest I feel like punching myself in the nuts for making a ranger twink now. Oh well got him to 41, maybe time to retire him. Time to go back to my overpowered nerco.

Holmes 50 Nerco DA
Gretzky 41 Ranger DA (Probaly retired)

[Landis]

This is a classic server. That means where possible, given client limitations that exist, they will endeavour to make things as classic as possible. If you can confirm certain things that aren't classic and can be changed, post it and let the devs know.

You came to play here knowing it was going to be classic. Don't cry for it to be classic when convenient. Newsflash: Classic EQ wasn't convenient.

I don't even play a hybrid and have no intention of doing so. I don't expect to change anyone's mind, but it doesn't mean we can't have a conversation about it.

The fact is experience penalties are a relic from D&D where classes were not balanced at high levels, and that's not the case in EQ. It's actually the opposite, warriors are the preferred tanks at max level despite having an experience bonus.

[MorganTPSO]

I can see the argument behind things like, no PoK books, no bazaar, and other non-classic things that weren't good for the community and made the game easier in a bad way. Implementing something like this xp nerf that hurts various classes seems counter productive. Race xp penalties are logical because there is a real disparity between certain races. But lets look at rangers and rogues whose primary role in groups and on raids is to deal damage. A ranger isnt near as good at dealing damage as a rogue. Should a ranger really take 45-50%(50% compared to halfllings) more experience to level than a rogue, who is much better at their primary role? This isnt a classic server, its a limited progression server with a classic feel. All things classic werent always good. We should try to make this server as community friendly as possible, while still maintaining that classic feel. Screwing over a subset of classes by making them unattractive to groups, while not totally "classic", dosent seem like the right way to go.

-Morgn

p.s. Thanks for the hard work Devs. I've enjoyed playing and appreciate the time and effort you all put in.

[hueylewis187]

In my opinion hybrid penalties should be in. It should be shared with the group. That is the way it was. I am sure hell levels were not shared in the group. I also don't know if they are now on p1999 or not. I said many times that racial penalties bonuses/weren't working on p1999. Everyone attacked and said I was wrong... NOW WHO WAS WRONG :P

People are going to notice their xp going slower. Because before lightblue mobs were giving almost as much xp as yellow/red mobs. Since the change lightblue mobs give 1/8 of what they used to give or there abouts. I like it. I hated that a red mob gave me 30perc more xp than a lightblue mob. At least this is what it was like in classic. Now you have to take camps more in your level range.

Instead of massive killing lightblues for the best xp. Like a LDC in solb used to give the same xp as a lightblue kobold. Now the LDC gives the same xp it used to give, but the lightblue kobold gives almost no xp.

I also remember grouping with a lvl 35 on my lvl 49. It took maybe 5 hours for the lvl 35 to get 1 yellow of xp. The majority of the xp was given to the highest level in the group. Depending on how big a gap it was. This change is great and just like classic.

So overall people are seeing a major drop in their xp per hour. Either it be the mobs are too easy for them , or sharing the hybrid penalty with their groupie. Or grouped with someone too high lvl. It is all classic and I love it! : )

Thanks Bum! for all the work

[Lucrio40]

This is a classic server. That means where possible, given client limitations that exist, they will endeavour to make things as classic as possible. If you can confirm certain things that aren't classic and can be changed, post it and let the devs know.

You came to play here knowing it was going to be classic. Don't cry for it to be classic when convenient. Newsflash: Classic EQ wasn't convenient.

If the class based XP penalties are good enough to be in classic then the old school pathing exploits and such are good enough to be in. I understand the removal of duping exploits as that would break the server, but I don't really understand the developer stance, and this goes for all games not just P1999, of remove any mechanic or bug that gives players an advantage but take your sweet time removing any mechanic or bug that hinders players.

I honestly love the server. I'm having more fun this time around than I did when I first rolled up my rogue on live back in 1999. The above is just something that has always bothered me though.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

I hate to say it, but no matter how good someone is at their class, how nice they are, if their direct grouping causes me to almost double my time to get the same amount of xp as someone else, I would want to group someone else instead.

Please take the time to understand all the math involved before making statements like this. Almost all combinations of classes and levels need to kill no more than 9%-16% more mobs to level when a Troll SK is added to the group (and that is the worst penalty hybrid). Rangers and paladins are even less of a burden. This is no where near double your time. In fact, some people might argue that below level 37 an SK is more than 16% better than a warrior as a tank due to aggro control. YMMV, but "double my time" is just useless hyperbole that contributes to stigmatizing certain race/class combos.

[holkan]

I think the two biggest things slowing down XP like someone said is grouping with people too high for you and light blues giving the xp they're supposed to. The penalties dont seem to be that bad in groups just lvl 30's grouped with lvl 40's and fighting kobolds when you're 45 etc.

[Vexden]

Please take the time to understand all the math involved before making statements like this. Almost all combinations of classes and levels need to kill no more than 9%-16% more mobs to level when a Troll SK is added to the group (and that is the worst penalty hybrid). Rangers and paladins are even less of a burden. This is no where near double your time. In fact, some people might argue that below level 37 an SK is more than 16% better than a warrior as a tank due to aggro control. YMMV, but "double my time" is just useless hyperbole that contributes to stigmatizing certain race/class combos.

In Kunark my old group contained a Ranger and an Iksar SK. Our group used to play from 12-16 hours per night only to get outleveled by groups that had no hybrids and would only play 6-8 hours per night. We always wondered what was going wrong, as we were chain pulling constantly, killing quick, and not yeilding the same results.

Later a Guide friend of mine told me why (before it was announced about the shared xp penalty). I thought about what the other groups had as far as classes / races. It then all made sense, and now it just seems like deja-vu all over again.

Levels 1-50 might not be that bad to share the penalty, but spending 30+ hours in level 56 because of a certain group make-up that can be avoided by only grouping with certain race/class combo's makes sense to me.

[YendorLootmonkey]

You came to play here knowing it was going to be classic. Don't cry for it to be classic when convenient. Newsflash: Classic EQ wasn't convenient.

This is retarded. People knowing about the class/race penalties being shared with the group and thus being discriminatory about who to invite into their groups WAS NOT CLASSIC.

It is a artifact of being able to play from the beginning knowing what we know now about Everquest mechanics, and is not "part of the classic feel".

[nilbog]

It is a artifact of being able to play from the beginning knowing what we know now about Everquest mechanics, and is not "part of the classic feel".

I'm not sure if this is actually true.

Keep in mind this was changed after velious launched, and post Kunark content. It does play a classic factor. Whether its fair or not etc aside, it directly influenced how kunark played out on every server, unknowingly or not.

There wasn't a hybrid in every group. That changed much later when they were buffed up, given 40% more mana, and a variety of other things.

[Svampefarr]

Why are there still things like linked items and 7-day rez timers in the game?

That has to be some of the EASIEST classic fixes to do.

I'm just dunno lol rofl.

[Oogmog]

I am sure hell levels were not shared in the group. I also don't know if they are now on p1999 or not.


Short answer: No, they weren't shared on live. Yes, they are shared here. I've tried to bring that point up in other posts but I'm not sure if it's been overlooked or ignored.

[Svampefarr]

Why are there still things like linked items and 7-day rez timers in the game?

That has to be some of the EASIEST classic fixes to do.

Good is good, bad is bad.

[Dumesh Uhl'Belk]

In Kunark my old group contained a Ranger and an Iksar SK. Our group used to play from 12-16 hours per night only to get outleveled by groups that had no hybrids and would only play 6-8 hours per night. We always wondered what was going wrong, as we were chain pulling constantly, killing quick, and not yeilding the same results.

Later a Guide friend of mine told me why (before it was announced about the shared xp penalty). I thought about what the other groups had as far as classes / races. It then all made sense, and now it just seems like deja-vu all over again.

Levels 1-50 might not be that bad to share the penalty, but spending 30+ hours in level 56 because of a certain group make-up that can be avoided by only grouping with certain race/class combo's makes sense to me.

Saying something over and over doesn't make it true. Using info gleaned from ShowEQ back in the day, people were able to figure out how much xp mobs gave per kill and how much exp various classes needed to level. I don't have the original links because I don't believe the hackersquest website exists anymore, but this link provides a good summary of the relevant info: http://www.webslinky.com/darkomen/xp/

So, to answer your claims I used that info and caluclated the number of kills needed to level a group of characters from just dinged into 56 to dinging 57 by chain pulling level 55 mobs in Sebilis (an 85 ZEM).

For a group of an Iksar SK, a Human Ranger, an Erudite Wiz, a Human Cleric, a High Elf Enchanter, and a Dwarf Rogue... the group would have to kill 916 frogs to level. If you can kill a level 55 frog every 90 seconds, that's 40/hr and about 23 hours to complete the whole level.

If you replace the Iksar SK and Human Ranger with a Barbarian Warrior and a Human Monk, then the group will need 796 kills to level. That's just barely under 20 hours. So, please tell me how 23 hours is twice as long as 20 hours. The two hybrids in the group represent a need to kill 15% more mobs to level.


And... Once again, let me add that 15% kill rate is well within the deviation between a good group and a crappy one, or between a great group and an average one. The incentive to group with good players of any class is still stronger than the disincentive to group with a particular race/class combo.

[raptorak]

Well, I'm definitely giving up on my Troll SK - took me 5 hours to get to level 5, classic exp sucks. Now for whoever makes a Classic server with faster exp, no hell levels and no class penalities - I'm in! (Missing the Tallan/Vallon Zek server I played a couple of years back)

[Arrisard]

As someone who plays almost hybrids exclusively on Live, and again here, I really don't care (about the penalty) and like the attitude to keep things classic if at all possible.

People knowing that a same level hybrid slowed down exp for other group members is certainly classic to anyone paying half attention. I vividly remember some of the scorn I received as a paladin for it trying to level the high 40's/50's in the just-barely-post-Kunark-release-era. People hated hybrids for this and other reasons (real or perceived).

There are so many things that we could say we should change because of "what we know now but didn't know then", I wouldn't even want to try and list them all.

I have even less sympathy here, the way experience works is posted clearly for anyone to see and is fairly common knowledge before you even roll your character. Even with that knowledge, in most exp groups I get into, hybrid tanks are overwhelmingly preferred when given the option. Bards are gonna bard either way, and rangers ... well, rangers have more problems than just the exp penalty unless they get some Luclin-era changes.

[raptorak]

I'm sorry but 40% a exp penalty is just insane and always has been.

[BrandeX]

If I had the ability to host my own server, I think I'd go with something like you are saying. A "progression", but not "classic" where you try to implement the bugs, broken mechanics, and bad ideas like we do here. One problem though with this hypothetical server, is deciding which changes were made due to those criteria, and which were made for "easier game = more players = more money" reasons, although most of those come in post Luclin when SOE took over development completely.

[Terroric]

I'm a level 10 SK Ogre. While in CB, I was denied twice the chance to group because I was an Ogre/SK.

If this is what I have to look forward to on this server, even if this is considered 'classic' and as close to the way it was, I will most likely depart.

Very upsetting. I'm a level ten. The more and more people talk about this sort of thing, the quicker it will spread and the worse it will get.

Do the community a favor and 'fix' it.

[Juugox2]

eq live has it easy mode nowadays id def never go back due to fact they got hacked and lost all my chars anyway

[Dr4z3r]

Nice thread-necro. Anyways...

I'm a level 10 SK Ogre. While in CB, I was denied twice the chance to group because I was an Ogre/SK.

If this is what I have to look forward to on this server, even if this is considered 'classic' and as close to the way it was, I will most likely depart.

Very upsetting. I'm a level ten. The more and more people talk about this sort of thing, the quicker it will spread and the worse it will get.

Do the community a favor and 'fix' it.

The higher level you get, the less of that you'll see. The classes just aren't that well-differentiated before the 15-20 range, and the dungeons just aren't that hard, so the massive benefits SKs/Pallies bring to the group just aren't as obvious.

[Lazortag]

I'm a level 10 SK Ogre. While in CB, I was denied twice the chance to group because I was an Ogre/SK.

If this is what I have to look forward to on this server, even if this is considered 'classic' and as close to the way it was, I will most likely depart.

Very upsetting. I'm a level ten. The more and more people talk about this sort of thing, the quicker it will spread and the worse it will get.

Do the community a favor and 'fix' it.

Most of the people who do this are considered idiots anyway, so you'll get the last laugh at higher levels when people invite you to groups but not them. Don't worry too much about it.

[Doors]

I wouldn't exactly listen to what Giegue is saying, I mean, the guy plays a bard for God's sake.

[raptorak]

Most of the people who do this are considered idiots anyway, so you'll get the last laugh at higher levels when people invite you to groups but not them. Don't worry too much about it.

I doubt either of us will get anywhere near that level - "back in the day" I leveled a troll sk to 30 then quit for Tallon Zek, levelled to 35 then quit when I saw I had 29 days played on the new char, to me, that's just sad.

Having said that I applaud the rest of you who are having a great time reliving the old days, the thing is, the vast majority of you guys do not play a hybrid class, and for very good reasons.

The reason I play troll SK, is because any other race/class combo bores me. They do genuinely kick ass, it is just SO.DAMN.DEMORALIZINGLY.SLOW. I want to play Troll SK but now I know I have a 68% exp pen (I always thought it was 25%, so yeh ignorance is bliss) and no one wants to group with me.

Why does this server allow casters to see outside of their med book, for mana to regen from level 1 on hybrids, for decaying skeletons to "scowl" when they should be "indifferent", for scarab beetles not to glow, for high res water in oasis, for new weapon hit sounds whilst it keeps infuriating stuff such as the exp penalties and awful hit/miss melee ratio.

Classic EQ was in dire need of improvement at release and it received it. PoP ruined the game and we all know it - but EQ at release, though great comparatively speaking, needed a lot of work and improvement before it was as good as it was around 2001.

Ah, I guess I say to much - really it is my choice whether or not to play here and the creators of this server have the right to do whatever they want. Either way, I have stated my reasons why I won't play P1999, and I hope, perhaps, they might consider making the game an enjoyable experience.

[dusk883]

I doubt either of us will get anywhere near that level - "back in the day" I leveled a troll sk to 30 then quit for Tallon Zek, levelled to 35 then quit when I saw I had 29 days played on the new char, to me, that's just sad.

The reason I play troll SK, is because any other race/class combo bores me. They do genuinely kick ass, it is just SO.DAMN.DEMORALIZINGLY.SLOW. I want to play Troll SK but now I know I have a 68% exp pen (I always thought it was 25%, so yeh ignorance is bliss) and no one wants to group with me.



Any chance you were in Army of Grobb?

I agree with everything you say, but I do play some... just not the beloved troll race unless I'm screwing around as a Shaman now that exp rates have been exposed.

[Kassel]

I doubt either of us will get anywhere near that level - "back in the day" I leveled a troll sk to 30 then quit for Tallon Zek, levelled to 35 then quit when I saw I had 29 days played on the new char, to me, that's just sad.

Having said that I applaud the rest of you who are having a great time reliving the old days, the thing is, the vast majority of you guys do not play a hybrid class, and for very good reasons.

The reason I play troll SK, is because any other race/class combo bores me. They do genuinely kick ass, it is just SO.DAMN.DEMORALIZINGLY.SLOW. I want to play Troll SK but now I know I have a 68% exp pen (I always thought it was 25%, so yeh ignorance is bliss) and no one wants to group with me.

Why does this server allow casters to see outside of their med book, for mana to regen from level 1 on hybrids, for decaying skeletons to "scowl" when they should be "indifferent", for scarab beetles not to glow, for high res water in oasis, for new weapon hit sounds whilst it keeps infuriating stuff such as the exp penalties and awful hit/miss melee ratio.

Classic EQ was in dire need of improvement at release and it received it. PoP ruined the game and we all know it - but EQ at release, though great comparatively speaking, needed a lot of work and improvement before it was as good as it was around 2001.

Ah, I guess I say to much - really it is my choice whether or not to play here and the creators of this server have the right to do whatever they want. Either way, I have stated my reasons why I won't play P1999, and I hope, perhaps, they might consider making the game an enjoyable experience.


All of your complaints are due to the fact that the server is built on the titanium client and are hard coded in to the clients itself. Also skellys are supposed to scowl.

The reasons you quit are dumb and i feel we are all better off . It is not project 2001

[Aadill]

To clarify what Kassel is saying:

Why does this server allow casters to see outside of their med book,

Client Issue.

for mana to regen from level 1 on hybrids

Mana regeneration for everyone at level 1 (if they have mana). It doesn't regen with meidtate-level efficiency until the correct level for the class archetype (4 for casters, 8 for priests, 12 for hybrids).

for decaying skeletons to "scowl" when they should be "indifferent"

As far as everyone can attest to this is the correct implementation for the timeline.

for scarab beetles not to glow

Bug report it if it's incorrect.

for high res water in oasis

Client issue, but fixable. You can easily turn off water if you go to the options menu in Everquest.

for new weapon hit sounds

What? Every mob I hit sounds like it does and there were never any hit sounds beyond block, riposte, and parry. They are all correct.

whilst it keeps infuriating stuff such as the exp penalties

Correct for the timeline.

and awful hit/miss melee ratio.

This isn't VZTZ. All logs/parsed data back from early on as possible point to the current implementation being at least somewhat fairly accurate. It's not perfect but the damage outputs about match what should be expected per class (except for rogues).

Ah, I guess I say to much - really it is my choice whether or not to play here and the creators of this server have the right to do whatever they want. Either way, I have stated my reasons why I won't play P1999, and I hope, perhaps, they might consider making the game an enjoyable experience.

Take it or leave it is the best you're gonna get, considering all of your reasons/request are actually not in the scope of this server's timeline. Most of what you are talking about is cosmetic or is unchangeable by the dev staff. The remaining things are either not backed up with research or have not been bug reported.

[raptorak]

Put it this way - not sure about the /con, but the decaying skeletons never aggroed unless you attacked them first, I bet you 10 plat, nothing to you perhaps, but in other words 8 hours of my time for you to suck up necro-style. And this is besides the point.

If want to give up my job, girlfriend and everything else along with it, I might just reach mid-level mediocrity on this server. Instead, I would LOVE to play an improved EQ Classic whereas this is "roll a caster noob" EQ Classic.

You told me I could take it or leave it but I choose to express my opinion on the forum - I also choose to wait until this glaring mistake is rectified, because it inevitably will be if I am to have any faith in human decency, and then all the happy little fairies will dance for joy in nostalgia land rather than just a select few.

OK so this is Project 1999 and we only do 1999 stuff - SO WHAT THE **** is Kunark doing there?

Now I will take a moment to say that what the devs have done here is quite incredible. But you have to see that the server could be improved and needs to be improved - it is just sheer hell for anyone who wasn't "l33t" back in the day.

All of you guys are in your high 50s on at least one or two chars already. Like I said the highest I ever got was lvl 35 and I quit with PoP - I will not get to that level again and I sincerly doubt I will ever experience the high end of the game. Now I can't even get a damn group with your alt because you don't want to get the exp hit and either way I'm a noob right, so I would just slow you down. Let alone the fact that I'm packing a full set of netted armour and a rusty 2h sword at level 5. You can ignore what I am saying but you would also be ignoring the main reason people quit this server.

[Aadill]

You told me I could take it or leave it but I choose to express my opinion on the forum - I also choose to wait until this glaring mistake is rectified, because it inevitably will be if I am to have any faith in human decency, and then all the happy little fairies will dance for joy in nostalgia land rather than just a select few.

OK so this is Project 1999 and we only do 1999 stuff - SO WHAT THE **** is Kunark doing there?

I told you to take it or leave it because your reasons for not playing are based on things that are impossible to fix without editing the .exe and distributing it (which would be against Sony's EULA) or are incorrect/based off of anecdotal evidence in which no bug report is provided in the proper location here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=6

Furthermore: make sure you understand the scope of this server. From the main page:

Relive the classic Everquest MMORPG Gaming Experience as it was in 1999 and onward. Project 1999 is a free to play Emulated Everquest Server giving Players the opportunity to experience Classic EQ Once again, starting with the original 3 continents and a max level of 50, with the look and feel of the old interface and several modifications making game mechanics similar to how the game used to be.

That line is a bit confusing. It should probably be changed around to mention that the expansion cap is Velious, as the "1999 and onward" line would indicate that we would otherwise be indefinitely moving through each expansion. Kunark is out because we're in that portion of the timeline labeled as "onward". In fact, we're around August 2000 if I'm not mistaken. There's no clear line drawn on this but some of the latest patches are reaching towards end of the year stuff.


Now I will take a moment to say that what the devs have done here is quite incredible. But you have to see that the server could be improved and needs to be improved - it is just sheer hell for anyone who wasn't "l33t" back in the day.

Everquest wasn't a casual game. Project1999 isn't trying to make it a casual game. Judging by your complaint I suspect you don't get a lot of playtime. That's understandable, but you get out what you put in. I started over a year and a half ago and I'm still not level 60. I picked a Ranger as my main when I started here because that's what I wanted to play. I wanted to play Project1999 because I LOVED EQ back in the day. This is a pretty damn good recreation of it and what the devs done is indeed incredible.

To want it changed, though, you will draw ire from every individual who wants to relive that same experience.... the dirty grimy rage-inducing, eye-bleeding, keyboard-slamming Everquest we all knew and loved. I *WANT* to camp a quest mob for 12 hours straight because damnit that's what gave Everquest it's name... perhaps a misnomer, as Evercamp would have been more appropriate, but I digress.

All of you guys are in your high 50s on at least one or two chars already. Like I said the highest I ever got was lvl 35 and I quit with PoP - I will not get to that level again and I sincerly doubt I will ever experience the high end of the game. Now I can't even get a damn group with your alt because you don't want to get the exp hit and either way I'm a noob right, so I would just slow you down. Let alone the fact that I'm packing a full set of netted armour and a rusty 2h sword at level 5. You can ignore what I am saying but you would also be ignoring the main reason people quit this server.

I don't play as much as I used to because I, too, have been busy with life. I would however love to start a new character, untwinked, and run around bashing things at level 5. I'd consider you the lucky one in that regard.. just sayin. <3 (I'm probably suffering from some brain damage)

[raptorak]

Lol must be all those deaths as a ranger - well guess I'm just gonna have to say that EQ is too hardcore for me. I used to like the hardcore PVP aspect of Ultima Online and something more along those lines could get me interested, Everquest had awesome mobs and difficulty (but imo leveling speed wasn't a plus point) with awful PVP, but for me then EQ Classic = have fun guys I can't go through that torture again :)

[Snaggles]

Why on Earth isn't anyone but maybe a rogue soloing at level 10? You could be wielding a dead rat carcass and wearing a flowery moo-moo and be rocking the expz.

[raptorak]

Any chance you were in Army of Grobb?

I agree with everything you say, but I do play some... just not the beloved troll race unless I'm screwing around as a Shaman now that exp rates have been exposed.

Minions of Zek I believe, the newbie guild that had nearly everyone in it and I was a lowly lieutenant - we used to zerg Cazic Thule and Gfaydark and see how many corpses we could make hehe. Dunno what else, I remember being in a guild called Flowers of Happiness as a lowly level 15 shaman at some point but that might have been Rallos Zek.

[Twosmoke]

twosmoke agrees that this xp penalty makes no sense at all, wouldnt even consider it "real" classic as previous poster pointed out very well.

[Dantes]

Any chance you were in Army of Grobb?

I agree with everything you say, but I do play some... just not the beloved troll race unless I'm screwing around as a Shaman now that exp rates have been exposed.

Now that experience rates have been exposed? Are you saying this is a secret? Check out the FAQ. See the section entitled "What are the experience penalties/bonuses?" Beyond that, anybody who played classic knows this is part of the game.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1002

They can't rightfully change it now that so many Paladins and Shadow Knights have busted their butts to reach 60. That would be a slap in the face, essentially saying "Now that you've wasted all this time, we're gonna make it easier for everybody else." If you are waiting for them to change it, don't hold your breath.

[Harrison]

They're not going to change it for any reason. This has been beaten to death with logic already.

Everyone knows the experience penalties and bonuses were a mistake and some of them even literally not meant for that race and/or class at all in the first place.(admitted by original devs, many times)

They don't care.

[Rainflush]

Although I generally approve of classic EQ's various rigours (and vehemently decry anything beyond the second expansion, but that's another thread) I have to say the class-based experience penalty is really quite disheartening and the notion of a shared experience penalty is simply absurd. That being said, I can respect the developers dedication to the 'classic' experience (as subjective an idea as it is, apparently) and take consolation in knowing that the penalties will be abolished at some point within the Velious expansion. If it were removed today I'd be entirely thrilled, if I have to wait for Velious I imagine I can do that as well. I will add however that as someone who likes to create alternate characters I'd much appreciate anything which would lenify the 1-30 grind in particular.

[raptorak]

Sheer bloody mindedness and logic are hardly equivalent Harrison.

The way things are, kill sth. that yields 100 exp - troll sk gets 32 exp, halfling warrior gets 115. Goddamn this game is horrible.

Oh well, have fun in those basements :P

And to those sks/pallys who have made it to 60 - that is madness!

Am going to wait for Velious and see if they put their classic where their mouth is, and I shall do the same in the mean time.

[Arrisard]

Then don't play a troll SK? JFC dude, play it or don't, but don't sit here with the high and mighty "I have a real life, I can't put up with a 68% exp penalty like you basement dwellers" crap.

Because that's what it is. Absolute crap. Having a level 60 whatever vs having a level 40 or 50 whatever for the same amount of time played isn't going to make anyone lose jobs or wives or any of that nonsense.

[Hamahakki]

The way things are, kill sth. that yields 100 exp - troll sk gets 32 exp, halfling warrior gets 115. Goddamn this game is horrible.

Sorry, but that's just not how it works. You kill a mob (solo) which yields 100 exp, you get 100 exp no matter what race and class you are. It just takes more exp to level for a TRL/SHD vs a HFL/WAR.

In fact, because exp penalties are shared, if a duo of equal level TRL/SHD and HFL/WAR kill a mob which yields 100 exp, the troll gets 66 and the halfling gets 34.

This is the reason some people don't want to group with hybrids. If it worked like your example (where hybrids just took less exp from mobs) people would LOVE hybrids.

[mokfarg]

Sheer bloody mindedness and logic are hardly equivalent Harrison.

The way things are, kill sth. that yields 100 exp - troll sk gets 32 exp, halfling warrior gets 115. Goddamn this game is horrible.

Oh well, have fun in those basements :P

And to those sks/pallys who have made it to 60 - that is madness!

Am going to wait for Velious and see if they put their classic where their mouth is, and I shall do the same in the mean time.

If you don't like the server that is trying to be classic, I think later after Velious there will be some sort of custom server being created by the same great team we have now.

I hope these guys continue to do servers. I know that is unrealistic considering life moves on but hopefully they will for quite sometime.

[dusk883]

Now that experience rates have been exposed? Are you saying this is a secret? Check out the FAQ. See the section entitled "What are the experience penalties/bonuses?" Beyond that, anybody who played classic knows this is part of the game.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=1002

They can't rightfully change it now that so many Paladins and Shadow Knights have busted their butts to reach 60. That would be a slap in the face, essentially saying "Now that you've wasted all this time, we're gonna make it easier for everybody else." If you are waiting for them to change it, don't hold your breath.

ok ok ok... exposed to him and I... didnt mean there was a conspiracy...

[Palemoon]

SO, are the hybrid xp penalties going to be removed in Velious or not? If they are, I dunno if I can level one up right now knowing that when Velious is out it will be 40 percent faster.

I'd hate to get to 60 and then a week later see patch notes saying the penalty is going away.

I dont mind the penalties but do think they should not be "shared" with the group. Let the hybrid deal with it themselves and not impose it on their party. I was thinking Ranger for p99 red, but now I'm afraid no one will want to group knowning i'll be bringing them a huge xp penalty for my awesome sub-rogue dps.

[Thulack]

Sorry, but that's just not how it works. You kill a mob (solo) which yields 100 exp, you get 100 exp no matter what race and class you are. It just takes more exp to level for a TRL/SHD vs a HFL/WAR.

In fact, because exp penalties are shared, if a duo of equal level TRL/SHD and HFL/WAR kill a mob which yields 100 exp, the troll gets 66 and the halfling gets 34.

This is the reason some people don't want to group with hybrids. If it worked like your example (where hybrids just took less exp from mobs) people would LOVE hybrids.

Where is this posted? didnt feel like reading 10 pages to try and find something about it.

[Arrisard]

Where is this posted? didnt feel like reading 10 pages to try and find something about it.

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works

[Thulack]

http://wiki.project1999.org/index.php/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works

All that is showing me is that i as a ranger would need more xp to level then say a monk. Doesnt say anywhere that someone would actually get less xp when grouped with a ranger or am i misreading a part of that wiki? It says that everyone would get a equal share of the pie which would make me assume that xp is split evenly and fully no matter what its just the fact that i would need more xp then others in my group to level.

[Arrisard]

It gives a pretty good example of who people who are grouped with a similar leveled hybrid would get less experience.

Exp is divided to group members based on their total numerical experience.

Hybrids require more experience per level.

Therefore, they have a higher experience total at a given level.

Since they have a higher experience total, when exp is divided up when a mob is killed, they get a bigger share of the experience.

[pickled_heretic]

They can't rightfully change it now that so many Paladins and Shadow Knights have busted their butts to reach 60. That would be a slap in the face, essentially saying "Now that you've wasted all this time, we're gonna make it easier for everybody else." If you are waiting for them to change it, don't hold your breath.

stupid logic of course. if a better way has been discovered, it should be pursued. what progress would ever be made if we always wanted to do things the hard way because those before us did it the hard way? enjoy your indentured servitude for 7 years in order to be gainfully employed. or better yet, just work in a factory for 16 hours a day because dammit, it was good enough for your ancestors so it's good enough for you. literacy? electricity? what a slap in the face to people who spent their whole lives illiterate and in the dark.

[Zuranthium]

No one is saying rangers didn't suffer a bad rep prior to Kunark.

Rangers were the most popular class in the game for awhile pre-Kunark. When Everquest first came about, people treated it as an actual RPG and they loved the fantasy flavor of the Ranger class (inspired by characters in the genre such as Aragorn, no doubt). This love for the idea of the class was backed up by them being relatively overpowered in Original EQ, during the time when all of the Chain and Plate wearing classes used the same armor, Rubicite, and thus Rangers were very close to Warriors in terms of tanking/melee ability and had spells on top of it (with their ability to snare being VERY important back in the day, because monsters would sometimes flee at full run speed and create insurmountably devastating trains).

After Rubicite armor was removed from the game and more players became higher level and Warriors became much better tanks (and necessary for the big raid encounters), the Ranger class lost some popularity but their status was still healthy. The only class that people actively shunned in Original EQ (aside from roleplaying reasons), at times, were Rogues.

Kunark then came along and turned Rangers into a joke for the most part. They became vastly inferior to Warriors/Monks/Rogues, while at the same time knowledge of how the hybrid exp penalty negatively affected groups became more widespread.

[Thulack]

Ok i see what your saying now after rereading it.

[Palemoon]

So all else being equal, hybrids will slow your xp down. In a nutshell.

This is going to lead to the same situation as on live, groupless hybrids.


I distinctly remember back when Kunark came out, I had to wait while a group at the entrance of Selebis consulted among themselves to decide if they really wanted to invite my Troll SK to the group. In the end they did, but it did make them stop and think about it. This was the first moment I learned that hybrids penalized a groups xp rate.

I do not mind an xp penalty at all, I actually kind of like it as a bade of honor and to keep certain classes rare. BUT, let the hybrid himself pay it exclusivly, not his group.

I'm really steering away from hybrids now for the new pvp server. I do not want to feel like an xp burden and charity case everytime a nice group of people lets me in their group.

Really needs looked at. Do not let hybrids "share" their burden with their party members.

[Dr4z3r]

So all else being equal, hybrids will slow your xp down. In a nutshell.

This is going to lead to the same situation as on live, groupless hybrids.

But all else isn't equal.

SK's and Paladins will allow a group's DPS to attack sooner and harder without ever losing aggro. This translates to less mana spent healing, which means more mobs can be pulled in the same amount of time.

Bards (and Rangers in outdoor dungeons) can chain-pull and CC without ever stopping. This leaves more room for DPS and utility, so the group will be able to kill more, faster, than if pulling and CC duties are split between two different people.

When the group xp penalty is divided up between 6 people, and factoring in the group xp bonus, a group only needs to kill about 10% more mobs than without any hybrids to come out ahead of the penalty.

[pickled_heretic]

But all else isn't equal.

SK's and Paladins will allow a group's DPS to attack sooner and harder without ever losing aggro. This translates to less mana spent healing, which means more mobs can be pulled in the same amount of time.

Bards (and Rangers in outdoor dungeons) can chain-pull and CC without ever stopping. This leaves more room for DPS and utility, so the group will be able to kill more, faster, than if pulling and CC duties are split between two different people.

When the group xp penalty is divided up between 6 people, and factoring in the group xp bonus, a group only needs to kill about 10% more mobs than without any hybrids to come out ahead of the penalty.

and warriors are both better dps and better tanks once they are geared for it (particularly for planes), which for a huge portion of the playerbase is the only thing that matters. meanwhile, the ability of bards to do so many things is offset by their spoony nature.

face it, if we balanced exp losses based on overall class effectiveness, they would look really nothing like what we have today. necros, mages, druids, and shamen would probably have to have a large penalty and pretty much all of the melees would need a bonus (some of them already do, some of them don't). it's better to just make it all a wash and let people play the classes they want without being hindered by an antiquated and completely obsolete mechanic.

[TheBlob]

In the same line, when did Eye of Zomm (and pets in general if I remember correctly) stop aggroing mobs?

[Nebi]

while into velious or maybe luclin

[Honest]

The Eye of Zomm never agroed as far as i can remember. Not sure about pets tho.

[Snaggles]

I never could tell a difference on live between a hybrid-heavy grind group and a percentage "perfect" group. Optimal pulling the exp bar is just slow regardless because the game was designed to be evil. :p

My nightmares are etched with the groups that should have been perfect. I mean, two rogues, a trusted warrior, cleric, chanter, etc...yet we couldn't get our shit together to save our lives. CR's with ninja tactics? Fun stuff. :mad:

Putting together a group shouldn't neglect a certain role. It also shouldn't exclude certain people who are competent and can play their class to the fullest.

Ever do the math on taking 10-20% longer to kill a mob or getting 80% percent of the exp you normally would? It's not as big of a deal as people think. Holding a camp comfortably is better than shot nerves.

[Vondra]

Just don't play a ranger, the other hybrids get plenty of groups and are fine.

[Dr4z3r]

and warriors are both better dps and better tanks once they are geared for it (particularly for planes), which for a huge portion of the playerbase is the only thing that matters. meanwhile, the ability of bards to do so many things is offset by their spoony nature.

Warriors are never better dps than any dedicated class (except maybe Wizards), and they only tank better against mobs that call for Discs and/or CH chains (so basically raid bosses).

Regarding Bards, though, I agree completely.

[pickled_heretic]

Warriors are never better dps than any dedicated class (except maybe Wizards), and they only tank better against mobs that call for Discs and/or CH chains (so basically raid bosses).

Regarding Bards, though, I agree completely.

i was, of course, comparing warrior dps to knight dps - there is simply no comparison of the two. the warrior clearly outdamages both. in this case, it's a matter of "separate but equal" since all three classes have strengths and weaknesses in different areas but i suppose your mileage may vary. in any case, it seems pretty trivial of a difference one way or the other to merit a 45% exp difference for the two classes.