Glaring inaccuracies

[azxten]

So I've been playing here about a month or so and I just thought I'd start a thread for people to post things that really stand out as different from classic in a game changing way.

For me this has been pets ability to tank. The DPS seems fine except pets could never tank this well in classic. For example, my girlfriend has a 25 mage with fire focus and the fire pet can solo RED con mobs.. literally solo them with no help because it tanks so well and DS eats them up. The DPS of fire pet was the same but it required chain heals practically to keep it up through a fight with a red and that was iffy. I am hopeful the upcoming changes to AC will alter this though.

Another thing is the ability of SK/Paladin to get aggro. Disease cloud was never an instant "I win aggro" button in classic. The slightly off aggro on spells has a major impact on the game overall. This is like a huge nerf to warriors that didn't really exist in classic and also makes the game more boring than it used to be imo. Every group wants an SK/Paladin tank so that aggro is 100% dealt with and that shouldn't exist to the degree it does now.

Anyway, that's all I can really think of but these two things constantly remind me I'm on an emulator because I think to myself, "On this server pets are ridiculously overpowered" or "I forgot that here disease cloud is +1000 aggro".

Overall the experience has been great and pretty close to classic. I just wanted to hear from others what the major differences are in their opinion.

tl;dr I think pets are OP and disease cloud should should be nerfed because they ruin that classic feeling

[PhelanKA]

Actually the whining about pet classes is pretty close to Classic.

[rioisk]

mage pets were always ridiculously overpowered in classic....they smooth out a lil in kunark/velious

[Insedeel]

mage pets were always ridiculously overpowered in classic....they smooth out a lil in kunark/velious

^ This

I played a Mage in classic-velious+. Mage pets especially in 51-60 range started balancing out, but they were extremely powerful in the mean time, especially if you got the pet focuses (torch, broom, shovel, stein). I remember soloing reds back in classic, it wasn't always easy, but it was doable.

[zeval31]

you can't outrun a normal mob (i.e. dervs in EC). YOu definitely could in classic

[Cogwell]

Actually, yes, disease cloud was insane aggro in classic. At some point they reduced aggro significantly from disease counters (mainly for slows) and DC got caught in the crossfire. It started a shitstorm on the SK forums and with the devs, and the devs stance was that while the nerf wasnt intended, it was appropriate since a 10 mana level 9 spell being the main aggro gainer was overpowered.

Also, I remember pets tanking extremely well through Kunark and Velious even.
The earth pet would often be a more efficient tank (from a HP standpoint) for a cleric to heal with CH than a warrior or knight.

It seems to me you must have started playing during late Kunark or Velious, not actual classic.

[Uaellaen]

in fact, mage pets are not as strong here as they were in classic ...

[Aeolwind]

Mage Pets are getting a stat pass as we speak.

And yes, disease cloud really was that much aggro.

[Insedeel]

Mage Pets are getting a stat pass as we speak.

And yes, disease cloud really was that much aggro.

Aeolwind, does stat pass mean nerfing or buffing? When can we expect details of what's changing? Thanks! (and yes I know, any "nerfing" or "buffing" will only be to bring it closer in line to real classic)

[Dantes]

You need evidence in the form of logs, posts on websites from the classic area, etc. Without those, your "glaring inaccuracies" are more like "fading memories."

[Vexden]

Aeolwind, does stat pass mean nerfing or buffing? When can we expect details of what's changing? Thanks! (and yes I know, any "nerfing" or "buffing" will only be to bring it closer in line to real classic)

He means now that pets have a 60% xp penalty that will be shared by the group :D

[Insedeel]

He means now that pets have a 60% xp penalty that will be shared by the group :D

lol

[guineapig]

Classic era mobs have lower hitpoints and hit for less than mobs for every subsequent expansion.

The reason why some people remember things differently is usually because things changed a great deal within the first 16 months of Everquest.

Consider the difference (extreme example) of a level 25 mob in Luclin versus a level 25 Aviak in South Karana. Use the same pet on those two mobs and you will think you are hallucinating.

[feanan]

Mage Pets are getting a stat pass as we speak.

And yes, disease cloud really was that much aggro.

as a mid level mage, this worries me. could you provide a little more information?

[YendorLootmonkey]

Another thing is the ability of SK/Paladin to get aggro. Disease cloud was never an instant "I win aggro" button in classic.

Yes it was. So was the Ranger/Druid flame lick spell.

Also, ROFL at all the mages shitting themselves at the dev's offhand comment about an incoming mage pet adjustment.

[Omnimorph]

You think classic pets were OP... just wait till they get their epics :p now they were OP...

[azxten]

I admit my memories of disease cloud could be off as I soloed most of my classic experience. Also, I admit mage earth pet could tank well in classic but I'm talking about the fire pet. The trade off with fire was supposed to be DPS for less tanking ability but it still stands up to mobs as well as a player tank. Anyway, glad to hear pets are being looked into.

[Elissa]

Mage Pets are getting a stat pass as we speak.


More info needed... very frightening way to put it.

[feanan]

I admit my memories of disease cloud could be off as I soloed most of my classic experience. Also, I admit mage earth pet could tank well in classic but I'm talking about the fire pet. The trade off with fire was supposed to be DPS for less tanking ability but it still stands up to mobs as well as a player tank. Anyway, glad to hear pets are being looked into.

woohoo, more classic eq memories! everyone hoping the nerf bat will hit every class but theirs!

[azxten]

woohoo, more classic eq memories! everyone hoping the nerf bat will hit every class but theirs!

My girlfriend plays a mage and I play an SK alt. In fact I think between us we have one of every class. I just want a classic experience and fire pets soloing reds with no help from the mage is not classic, I don't care what anyone says. It gets annoying having mages bragging about how they could drop group and solo the camp we're in, etc.

[Auchae]

I started playing a mage and I'm frustrated by how powerful they are. The pets are so vastly overpowered I see little need to play anything else. That kinda sucks.

[VincentVolaju]

Lol... Love how every Mage is going crazy. "Omg??? A nerf??? What??? What about my pet???"

[feanan]

am i going crazy? not really. will i be disappointed? yep.

i played a bunch of classes to mid/high teens before settling on
a mage. while there were a few other classes i liked slightly better, i appreciated having a class where i could do some afk soloing. so, yes, i am a bit worried when a dev throws out a comment about them looking at mage pets.

not sure what level you are that you are soloing reds with no help from the mage, but my max level summoned 29 fire pet requires 2-3 heals on a even con mob.

as the devs like to say...produce proof that the pets are more powerful than they were in classic, besides your memory

as far as i'm concerned, they are exactly as i remember them ;)

[azxten]

as the devs like to say...produce proof that the pets are more powerful than they were in classic, besides your memory

Go make a necro, buy level 1 pet, watch it solo yellows/reds. Proof provided.

[feanan]

Go make a necro, buy level 1 pet, watch it solo yellows/reds. Proof provided.

and are you going to give me a ride in your hot tub time machine to 1999 so i can do this on the original eq servers?

oh, or you mean on this server now? so where is the proof that in 1999 the same necro pet didn't solo a yellow?

11 years is a long time, ya know? memories get a bit fuzzy

[Haynar]

Aeolwind, does stat pass mean nerfing or buffing? When can we expect details of what's changing? Thanks! (and yes I know, any "nerfing" or "buffing" will only be to bring it closer in line to real classic)
The way pet scaling is supposed to work, is it varies the pets HPs and Stats for different levels. But the database, has the stats for the highest level pet. The way the scaling should have been, is it varies from the current highest level over a range of 5 levels total, with the database level as the highest.

When SOE changed pets, they made all pets summon the highest level.

So when it is patched, the lower level pets will hit for less, and have lower stats and hit points - So in that aspect it is a nerf.

THe current variance is varying up levels too, so that wont happen either. So max pet level will be lower - Another nerf.

But I am bumping up pet regen rates. The level 39 pet and up, will have the 30 hp regen rate as they should. The lower level mage pets will have 6 hp per tick regen rate like they should. These are all boosts in power.

I still need to work out the out of combat regen for pets, but this will help some.

Also the focus items are just totally borked.

The lower level mage focus items, should be pet specific, they should not increase pets max level or affect their hit rates. These are going to be nerfed to be like classic.

The higher level pet focus staffs of elemental masteries, will have about the same focus as they do now. But some stats will focus more, and some will focus less, depending on the pet. So the elemental masteries staffs will actually be of some use, to make the pet stronger.

That is it in a nutshell

[azxten]

That is it in a nutshell

Thanks for taking the time to type all of that out. The level variance thing makes a lot of sense in terms of what I've been seeing.

[Waldo73]

I played both a mage and shadowknight in classic (99-01). Only made it to the 30's with both of them, but I wanted to comment on a couple items.

1st, when my mage was in the 20's (circa Fall '99) my fire pet could barely kill a blue--maybe an even con-- by itself. Much less a red con. The DS was great, but the low HP's made the fire pet a liability in the face of a heavy hitting mob. Of course, buffs would change this considerably.

2nd, Disease Cloud really did snap agro like crazy. I played SK from '00-'01, and even then it was one of the defining abilities of the class.

[Qaedain]

Haynar:

These pages have some good information about the pre-50 pets and their stats at max level. I know these pets can vary downward by 5 levels before the max level fix, but this should give a good baseline if you don't have it already:

http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-fire-library.html
http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-air-library.html
http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-water-library.html
http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-earth-library.html

These tables also include their stats when focused by the Torch/Broom/Shovel/Stein, as well as the Staves of Elemental Mastery.

[Haynar]

Haynar:

These pages have some good information about the pre-50 pets and their stats at max level. I know these pets can vary downward by 5 levels before the max level fix, but this should give a good baseline if you don't have it already:

http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-fire-library.html
http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-air-library.html
http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-water-library.html
http://www.xalmat.com/eqsummoners.com-old/eq1/pets-earth-library.html

These tables also include their stats when focused by the Torch/Broom/Shovel/Stein, as well as the Staves of Elemental Mastery.
A lot of the old eqsummoners data, is what I used to base my changes to how the focuses for the Torch/Broom etc., were going to be.

[Qaedain]

While you're at it, is there any chance you could add pet cannibalization back into the game? I believe it wasn't fixed until 2002. You could Reclaim Energy for more mana than it took to summon a pet.

[Haynar]

While you're at it, is there any chance you could add pet cannibalization back into the game? I believe it wasn't fixed until 2002. You could Reclaim Energy for more mana than it took to summon a pet.
I forgot about that one. Pet canni was pretty awesome.

Will have to see what changed when they fixed that. I am not going to do anything with spells until they finish up all the spell gem changes. I will have to find out the specifics on how much the pet canni returned mana wise, and tweak some spells to make it happen.

Haynar

[feanan]

any chance you could also look in to pet heals causing agro? they currently do, and i do not believe they did on live.

http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=8953

[Aeolwind]

Aeolwind, does stat pass mean nerfing or buffing? When can we expect details of what's changing? Thanks! (and yes I know, any "nerfing" or "buffing" will only be to bring it closer in line to real classic)

To maintain my quota of vague as hell posts:

Both!

[Damaja]

Yea, me being new also I chuckle when I cast Disease. It's an instant RAWR!!!!!!! from whatever I am attacking.

[theguyy]

I love how this disguised mage pet rage thread is actually working....... It doesn't matter if necros can split and solo any camp in the game and druid/wiz can quad kite levels in 30minutes, lets rage on mage pets.

[azxten]

I love how this disguised mage pet rage thread is actually working....... It doesn't matter if necros can split and solo any camp in the game and druid/wiz can quad kite levels in 30minutes, lets rage on mage pets.

Complaining how much mage soloing sucks compared to Necro/Druid/Wiz is kind of troll of you.

[Uaellaen]

I forgot about that one. Pet canni was pretty awesome.

Will have to see what changed when they fixed that. I am not going to do anything with spells until they finish up all the spell gem changes. I will have to find out the specifics on how much the pet canni returned mana wise, and tweak some spells to make it happen.

Haynar

It was based on the pets HP. The more HP a pet had, the more mana you got back from reclaim. So if your pet was beat up to 1% the reclaim weilded almost no mana.

[mmiles8]

So if a Cleric had the kunark gear with clicky reso, and then cast it on your pet, would they be able to increase your pet canni for no mana? Or did it exclude HP buffs

[Uaellaen]

So if a Cleric had the kunark gear with clicky reso, and then cast it on your pet, would they be able to increase your pet canni for no mana? Or did it exclude HP buffs

i dont remember if buffs effected the gained mana or if they were excluded :confused:

[Insedeel]

The way pet scaling is supposed to work, is it varies the pets HPs and Stats for different levels. But the database, has the stats for the highest level pet. The way the scaling should have been, is it varies from the current highest level over a range of 5 levels total, with the database level as the highest.

When SOE changed pets, they made all pets summon the highest level.

So when it is patched, the lower level pets will hit for less, and have lower stats and hit points - So in that aspect it is a nerf.

THe current variance is varying up levels too, so that wont happen either. So max pet level will be lower - Another nerf.

But I am bumping up pet regen rates. The level 39 pet and up, will have the 30 hp regen rate as they should. The lower level mage pets will have 6 hp per tick regen rate like they should. These are all boosts in power.

I still need to work out the out of combat regen for pets, but this will help some.

Also the focus items are just totally borked.

The lower level mage focus items, should be pet specific, they should not increase pets max level or affect their hit rates. These are going to be nerfed to be like classic.

The higher level pet focus staffs of elemental masteries, will have about the same focus as they do now. But some stats will focus more, and some will focus less, depending on the pet. So the elemental masteries staffs will actually be of some use, to make the pet stronger.

That is it in a nutshell

Thank you for this information! I was wondering why at level 7 I could summon a yellow con pet, and why whether it was blue or yellow it seemed to have the same max hit. This is great to know, because I knew something was wrong with mage pets and knew that at the very least the level ranges would be fixed, but I didn't think the overall pet power (of an appropriate level pet) was out of whack which I'm glad to see I was right there.

Are you sure it's a 5 level range? I'm pretty sure it was 4 (get spells every 4 levels I think was the logic behind it) from when I played in classic.

All in all, this isn't going to affect me much since I'm only level 7 lol, and I'm glad to see this is being changed to classic, because I came here to re-experience the pain and unforgiving nature that was classic! Glad this is being fixed! I was more curious as to whether pet stats in general were just completely borked atm and if I should have expected baseline pet stats to be lowered for the appropriate level range pets.

Also one other thing I noticed (I'll make a new bug post if needed in the bug section) is that the level 4 mage Burn spell is currently set to take only 7 mana which is the same as the level 1 nuke (it should be taking 15).

[Maladien]

One thing that has really stood out to me as a bard is the agro of mez and slow/snare. I never remembered having any agro issues with bard songs until we got AE songs (Oops, ae Cantana to soon Loading Please Wait...).

The current agro generated by bard mez is super ridiculous. If I've hit a mob with mez 10 times that sk can chain cast disease cloud or anything else all he wants, it will still be glued to me till death. On the other hand, i can charm a mob multiple times and a tank can sneeze on the mob and take agro instantly. I remember charm generating a lot more agro than that. I'ts almost as if agro for charm and mez have been reversed.

One caveat to that is that on very rare occasions a tank will pull agro instantly even if mob has been mesmerized multiple times. Almost like there was a 1% chance of memory wipe on mez.

[Quitis]

One caveat to that is that on very rare occasions a tank will pull agro instantly even if mob has been mesmerized multiple times. Almost like there was a 1% chance of memory wipe on mez.

Intresting you point that out. Due to the over aggro of Disease Cloud, i've found that SK's breaking my mes do just find pulling hate. Paladin's sometimes do ok as well as long as they try to double blind since a single one won't always do it. Warriors on the other hand, laugh. Even blues take multiple taunts before its safe to break mes.

Regardless. it wiped my mp out really fast on multi pulls, but I always, always, tash, mes, root. Root guarantees the tank tanks after breaking mes.

[JackFlash]

I love how this disguised mage pet rage thread is actually working....... It doesn't matter if necros can split and solo any camp in the game and druid/wiz can quad kite levels in 30minutes, lets rage on mage pets.

What you forgot to mention is that quad kiting/splitting a camp actually took some skill. You act like every wizard has this ability once they get snare!

Most people got munched just trying to spool up the quad....

[theguyy]

What you forgot to mention is that quad kiting/splitting a camp actually took some skill. You act like every wizard has this ability once they get snare!

Most people got munched just trying to spool up the quad....

I quad on my wiz and druid I know it's not hard. Very few things in this game are actually hard, quadding is not one of them especially considering the risk vs. reward. And No FD spliting doesn't take skill either.

[Kainzo]

Paladin's stuns were always super high aggro. I could use stuns and nothing else in classic/kunark/veilous and keep absolute aggro (As long as I was keeping stuns coming in)

[Hive]

If pets are being changed to fit how things worked in Classic great.

Are you going to do the pet nerfs like live? I think a lot of people would like to know now before they waste anymore time on a class that "might" be ruined for the duration of this server.

[Haynar]

If pets are being changed to fit how things worked in Classic great.

Are you going to do the pet nerfs like live? I think a lot of people would like to know now before they waste anymore time on a class that "might" be ruined for the duration of this server.
And how should we do things like live?

Nerf them, don't put anything in the patch notes, and let people figure it out on their own?

Haynar

[hyrus57]

I'm also in the crowd that remembers the fire pet being barely able to solo a blue.

[Dagoth]

What about invis not breaking when you take fall damage? i seem to recall that pretty solidly, only dont take it out, im a warrior =) that might nerf us as bad as mage pets are taking it!!!

[rioisk]

mage pet's should also proc the sword of rune proc on all mobs, not just elemental.

[Aposi]

mage pet's should also proc the sword of rune proc on all mobs, not just elemental.


Uh, bad idea

[rioisk]

Uh, bad idea

was classic

[Insedeel]

was classic

Yep, that was something in classic that was in for a while until they got around to changing it, as was the pet healing threat (which I hope to get changed through my bug report here (http://project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=11220) so we can have that back to the way it worked in classic as well)

[nalkin]

welp pets got nerfed hard. We have now become wizards.

[Waldo73]

Are you sure it's a 5 level range? I'm pretty sure it was 4 (get spells every 4 levels I think was the logic behind it) from when I played in classic.

I have the same recollection Insedeel. I'd noticed that there is a 5-level spread on pets on P99, but seem to remember it being only 4 levels during the 'classic' era on Live.

[Quinas]

Yeah noticed a fairly big hit to mage pets after the patch, even at low levels.. =/