A regular and casual raiding day on P99.

[HallygukRZ]

Disclaimer: This post has not been created to stir drama or point finger at anyone.
My only aim is to _maybe_ have a few people pause and think about how you play a videogame and how it impacts other people.

3PM CET: We hear that Naggy is up and move with a small team of 7 <Europa> guildies to SolB and start clearing to Naggy. Meanwhile 20 members of <The Mystical Order> have zoned in, while we wipe on some FG train (haha, newbs!). We then thought well, you made the race grats! Before gating out we askIvandyrs/Zeelott if we might stay and join the fight, ofc just for the fun. He said "why not, hell yeah" and together we slay the dragon. For some of us this has been a 1st-timer! Ivandyrs was kind enough to even offer us to loot the katana. 7 very happy members of Europa, thanks!

8 PM CET: I'm leading 20 Europa members to port up into Hate and we start our weekly raid fun.
We notice one TMO rogue being there and guessed that Inny was in window. Anyhow, we play like pros and get some nice loots.

10 PM CET: Our tracker says "Hey guys, I think Inny just spawned.. FO REAL". By then TMO and FE members already pile up at WC wiz spire and one of our officers talks to a FE officer and they say:
"Hey, let's have Europa have a shot at Inny. They never did it." Cool move, we think! Although we probably would have wiped anyway...

10:20 PM CET: Inny starts shouting and 20-25 TMO members engage him somewhere. Our raid is camped in church. After we see the numbers dropping, 3-4 minutes, we get Inny and 10+ adds on our raid - wiping us, including clerics.

10:40 PM CET: Inny is killed by TMO. Our members are all dead, 20 minutes of nothing. I contact Eccezan and ask what just happened and why he thought training our raid was a good idea. He apologized and said they had a train themselves and offered to rezz everyone of us at zone in and that we could have 2 loots (clr hammer and enc 1hb) as they don't need it. Aalpha and Flemming dragged and rezzed our corpses.

23:10 PM CET: We can continue to clear some more Hate.
Unfortunately quite a few people have to log as it's late (we are mostly european)
and some of our members have a sour taste left, that someone would do what just happened.


In the end, it all depends on how you want to play the game.
And how you want to be perceived by others.

[Uggme]

Is there ever any reason for Inny to leave his little room? It just seems odd to me how it appears there is at least one train during every raid.

[Tiggles]

Sorry about that train again guys, Inny is such a shit show.

It won't happen again when they fix invis pulling.

[Strifer]

http://i.imgur.com/nG5s9Yj.gif

[Tecmos Deception]

:confused:

[falkun]

So FE lets Europa have a shot at Inny and TMO still manages to train Europa without FE in zone? Somewhere there is a disconnect. I don't understand why TMO would need to train when FE isn't competing. If Europa had already moved to church, TMO should have been able to engage Inny upstairs with fewer than 10 adds.

Between FE letting Europa have a shot at Inny, TMO unleashing a train in Hate, and Europa being at Church, something in this story is wrong or should/did not happen.

[maverixdamighty]

So FE lets Europa have a shot at Inny and TMO still manages to train Europa without FE in zone? Somewhere there is a disconnect. I don't understand why TMO would need to train when FE isn't competing. If Europa had already moved to church, TMO should have been able to engage Inny upstairs with fewer than 10 adds.

Between FE letting Europa have a shot at Inny, TMO unleashing a train in Hate, and Europa being at Church, something in this story is wrong or should/did not happen.

the butler in the dining room with the candlestick!

[HallygukRZ]

So FE lets Europa have a shot at Inny and TMO still manages to train Europa without FE in zone? Somewhere there is a disconnect. I don't understand why TMO would need to train when FE isn't competing. If Europa had already moved to church, TMO should have been able to engage Inny upstairs with fewer than 10 adds.

Between FE letting Europa have a shot at Inny, TMO unleashing a train in Hate, and Europa being at Church, something in this story is wrong or should/did not happen.

Just to clarify: We were not really prepared to face Inny but would have tried (after clearing to him), which probably would have taken us an hour :p

[Ele]

I thought Innoruuk (and CT) was supposed to be engaged and killed at his spawn point, as per Ambrotos. There was no movement of him allowed.

Which really caters to the massguilds but I find it interesting they are able to just ignore any rule at will, even ones that directly favor them.

old rule

[Tecmos Deception]

together we slay the dragon. For some of us this has been a 1st-timer! Ivandyrs was kind enough to even offer us to loot the katana. 7 very happy members of Europa, thanks!

...

Anyhow, we play like pros and get some nice loots.

...

"Hey, let's have Europa have a shot at Inny. They never did it." Cool move, we think! Although we probably would have wiped anyway

...

we get Inny and 10+ adds on our raid - wiping us, including clerics.

...

[Eccezan] apologized and said they had a train themselves and offered to rezz everyone of us at zone in and that we could have 2 loots (clr hammer and enc 1hb) as they don't need it. Aalpha and Flemming dragged and rezzed our corpses.

...

and some of our members have a sour taste left, that someone would do what just happened.

...

In the end, it all depends on how you want to play the game.
And how you want to be perceived by others.

So you guys get to fight naggy, have fun doing it, and get loot. Then you guys do hate, have fun doing it, and get loot. Then one of the two raid guilds wants to let you guys attempt inny (you wouldn't have wiped on a single-pull of Inny, he's a wimp), but TMO engages him first and somehow trains you guys. But then TMO rezzes you guys all up and lets you have the Inny loots.

Where in that day of casual raiding was there cause for any of your members to be upset about anything at all? Why are you talking in this indirect "Hey so-and-so, stop being jerks" tone when there are only examples of people being NICE in the entire story you told?

:confused:

[Samoht]

people being NICE

FTE attempt to steal + train happens to be very nice

[getsome]

Where in that day of casual raiding was there cause for any of your members to be upset about anything at all? Why are you talking in this indirect "Hey so-and-so, stop being jerks" tone when there are only examples of people being NICE in the entire story you told?

:confused:


having your raid wiped by Inny when you are in the Church and 20 man hours of time wasted. I would have a sour taste as well, if I went up to hate to farm armor late in the night and had my time wasted by a guild that should easily be able to engage inny without wiping the entire zone.

[Tecmos Deception]

Who was stealing anything? Trains aren't cool, but this one almost certainly wasn't malicious and, ya know, they happen.

But I guess it's not like TMO (or anyone with half a brain) expects people to remember the 10 nice things that happen when 1 relatively lame thing happens too.

[getsome]

should rescind the rule on pulling VS out of his room.

a consistent rule set would be good for everyone.

[HallygukRZ]

@Tecmos: You don't see what I am getting at? I've been on the other side of the coin in Wudan, my old guild on RZ. We did have races, we did have a fair share of top-guild drama - but we also communicated with whatever guild was in the zone we entered.

I see the different angles and I don't want to offend TMO. Heck, I call quite some members my friends. And when I recreated Wudan here on p99 and we started raiding I had very good talks with quite a few officers.
But if you are a member from Europa, this is what happened in Hate:

1. Inny is up: Yay we might see him for once.
2. Inny starts his Deathtouch and a quick /who reveales 20+ TMO zoned in without any notice.
3. We get Inny and 10+ mobs in camp and wipe.
4. We wait 40-50 minutes at bindspot while guildleader is talking to TMO leader.
5. We get rezzed. That is the least to expect if some guild trains you. You still lost 40-50 mins of your time.
And the chance to see Inny for once.

The solution to this? Better communication between guild leaders/officers.
And Velious I guess, so the forces can spread. Rotation like for PoSky is also nice.
But again, that would need better communication.

[Samoht]

Who was stealing anything?

europa first in force to inny, TMO leap frogs them and tries to FTE steal while training them. they managed to wipe europa, making FTE irrelevant. then they CR faster and get the kill while europa is still dead.

so so nice.

[Ele]

It's pretty fucking sad when GMs go around declaring rules for engagements that only the completely disadvantaged people follow for fear of getting banned, when TMO is seemingly immune.

Now I would like Ele to link exactly where that rule was rescinded or changed.

Here ya go, from Sirken himself that pulling Inny to zone in is fine.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=93246&highlight=inny+engage

Fri Jan 04 20:54:24 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'GM Sirken here'
[Fri Jan 04 20:54:40 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'I dont want to explain the same things 100x, so here goes'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:02 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Different mobs = different situations'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:23 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'People pull inny to ent. whereas every sits on trak spawn spot for ft '
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:38 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'So thats why dam is required for inny and not trak'
[Fri Jan 04 20:55:58 2013] Sirken tells the guild, 'Theres no conspiracy, its common sense based on what we can see in the logs'

[Tecmos Deception]

This thread.

:rolleyes:

[Ele]

This is an explanation as to why DAM vs FTE is required on Inny. It says nothing about pulling to zone, except that "people do it"?? Whatever the FUCK that is supposed to mean.

It is basically a testament to the fact that TMO gets to ignore whatever rules they wish, when they wish.

Ask him yourself if it will make you happy, the GMs have seen and know about at least 3 different guilds pulling Innoruuk/Maestro to zone in since Ambrotos stepped down as GM.

A lot of GM rulings come down in game with no corresponding stickied thread updates.

[falkun]

Who was stealing anything? Trains aren't cool, but this one almost certainly wasn't malicious and, ya know, they happen.

Last I checked trains were also against the rules. Europa was also at church, which means an intelligent raid force would have been able to move to ramp and engage Inny at ramp/upstairs with few adds.

Lets draw you a picture, because pictures are awesome. Before you move to Church, the raid has already cleared the buildings boxed in red. After those buildings are clear, the raid usually follows one of the two green lines to move to church camp. Since both green lines go right by the ramp and would aggro anything on the way, the only mobs between the ramp and the zone-in after a raid has moved to church are the pathers (which respawn faster and there are only 2-3).

http://i.imgur.com/jvs1wMv.jpg

Now I also know a L60 (which basically constitutes TMO's entire raid force) can go up the ramp without aggroing any of the "Organ Halls" guards just NorthWest of the Ramp.

So besides 2-3 pathers, and 1-3 pulls worth of upstairs mobs, TMO should be able to kill Inny at/on the ramp or in his lair without training anyone. With FE not contesting (according to Europa), TMO had ample time to complete these 1-3 pulls. If I were Europa, I'd be mighty pissed off as well.

I agree with Europa, communication could have saved everyone time, but we all understand how pixels drive interactions on this server. Grats TMO on Inny.

[Ele]

The original Ambrotos thread, July 8, 2012, outlawing pulling Inny/Maestro out of their rooms and Draco/CT from their spawn/roaming areas was located here:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=668665

It appears to have been deleted/locked/moved since then.

[falkun]

Enslaved, the post was removed because its no longer applicable. When nothing has been defined for it, you are to revert to posted server rules. Since server rules allow pulling raid mobs to alternate locations, Inny is allowed to be pulled to zone-in (as long as the puller does not kite nor train which are other possible infractions).

[Ele]

I'm sorry but Ambrotos is the server GM. Please show where a developer or Server GM says it is ok to pull CT or Innorruk to the zone-in. Because here is where Ambrotos, the SERVER GM, says it's not ok:

***Hilariously, the entire post has been removed, with nothing to redefine or replace it. http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=668665&postcount=1***

What the FUCK is happening on P99?!

You do know that Ambrotos stepped down as Server GM back in October right?

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=86302

Sirken is the current Server GM.
Ambrotos is a Senior Guide now.

http://www.project1999.org/index.php?pageid=about

[Ele]

Where in there does it say that Ambrotos was demoted or that Sirken was promoted?

http://www.project1999.org/index.php?pageid=about

See ninja edit link. ^

[rafaone]

Well, in the end, 50 minutes wasted of my life and a sour tasted, as Hallyguk stated before, only because they wanted to get FTE.

/clap

[falkun]

Sirken Lead GM & Ambrotos demotion:
http://www.project1999.org/index.php?pageid=about

Server rules, as best as possible, are kept up-to-date in the Library forum:
http://www.project1999.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=2

Bah, Ele beat me to the "About" section.

[falkun]

This would be totally ok as long as it wasn't just completely conviniented-in at an opportune time. Where is the log for the rule change, where it became non-applicable? Because otherwise all we have is a stealth rules "fix" that benefits certain groups due to its apparent inaccessibility.

I will comment that GMs are fairly understanding of new groups joining the raid scene. If you wish to commit fully to the douchebaggery of the raid scene, just start doing it. Pull bosses, kill them. You'll break a few rules, you might get a short suspension (1-2 weeks is nothing in the grand scheme), you'll learn the rules quickly. Your chances of getting banned for attempting a raid boss are very small. You will learn more about the raid scene and yourself attempting to exist in it than you ever could reading what is and is not allowed within it.

[Ele]

That is merely a plaque, explaining who is in what position, sneakily updated at any time. Says nothing about the rescinding of Ambrotos's EXTREMELY WELL-KNOWN rule, so much so that Ele attempted to quote it.

Why don't you shoot Sirken a PM, it should be much easier and satisfying to get the answers you seek straight from him.

[sulious]

IMO- take away inny loot and award Europa loot. Grats Europa, problem solved. I am sure TMO and FE are ok with this decision... Glad I could help. *bow

[Sirken]

hi everyone!

first of all, Ambrotos was never "demoted", "punished", or anything along those lines. not sure where that all came from.

14 months ago Amelinda was the CSR GM of both servers, Ambrotos and I were both guides. Ambrotos spent more time on Blue, and i spent more time on Red, only assisting with Blue when Amelinda wanted a non bias opinion on a situation.

Shortly before Amelinda was removed from staff Ambrotos made a rule adjustment on blue, saying mobs could not be pulled, and had to be engaged roughly where they spawned.

After Amelinda was removed, i was asked to replace Amelinda and be the CSR GM for both servers (blue and red), and i accepted. Literally the first thing i did as GM was undo the rule that Ambrotos made. dont get me wrong, i love Ambrotos, but his rule imo, required staff members to police every single raid target, created lots "OMG HE CHEATED" drama, and limited creative kill strategies.

--

as far as different rules for different bosses or different raids, that was a problem all on its own. it started because i didnt like 100 afk people sitting on trak spawn spot, and a random number generator giving FTE to an AFK player. it was stupid, and it killed any and all competition/racing for the mobs it was happening on.

HOWEVER, it was my mistake to think players would be able to have faith in me to make the right call. and for the last 4ish months most raid guilds (FE/TMO and 1-2 others) have been made aware of that fact that raid mobs will be awarded to whoever has First To Engage. FTE goes to the player at the top of the FTE list, regardless of outside conditions. so all human judgement has been removed from the situation. and if a guild trains another guild at a raid, and it can be verified via a staff witness, or fraps that actually proves the claim, then the trainer will be suspended and the training guild will not be allowed to contest that mob next time it spawns. if they do not adhere to that punishment, or if that punishment is not effective, then the guild as a whole should expect a raid suspension.

[Ele]

my forum account Slave

The dialogue in this thread and others makes more sense now.

[Ele]

hi everyone!

first of all, Ambrotos was never "demoted", "punished", or anything along those lines. not sure where that all came from.

14 months ago Amelinda was the CSR GM of both servers, Ambrotos and I were both guides. Ambrotos spent more time on Blue, and i spent more time on Red, only assisting with Blue when Amelinda wanted a non bias opinion on a situation.

Shortly before Amelinda was removed from staff Ambrotos made a rule adjustment on blue, saying mobs could not be pulled, and had to be engaged roughly where they spawned.

After Amelinda was removed, i was asked to replace Amelinda and be the CSR GM for both servers (blue and red), and i accepted. Literally the first thing i did as GM was undo the rule that Ambrotos made. dont get me wrong, i love Ambrotos, but his rule imo, required staff members to police every single raid target, created lots "OMG HE CHEATED" drama, and limited creative kill strategies.

--

as far as different rules for different bosses or different raids, that was a problem all on its own. it started because i didnt like 100 afk people sitting on trak spawn spot, and a random number generator giving FTE to an AFK player. it was stupid, and it killed any and all competition/racing for the mobs it was happening on.

HOWEVER, it was my mistake to think players would be able to have faith in me to make the right call. and for the last 4ish months most raid guilds (FE/TMO and 1-2 others) have been made aware of that fact that raid mobs will be awarded to whoever has First To Engage. FTE goes to the player at the top of the FTE list, regardless of outside conditions. so all human judgement has been removed from the situation. and if a guild trains another guild at a raid, and it can be verified via a staff witness, or fraps that actually proves the claim, then the trainer will be suspended and the training guild will not be allowed to contest that mob next time it spawns. if they do not adhere to that punishment, or if that punishment is not effective, then the guild as a whole should expect a raid suspension.

Thanks for clearing that up on both sides.

[Tecmos Deception]

IMO- take away inny loot and award Europa loot. Grats Europa, problem solved. I am sure TMO and FE are ok with this decision... Glad I could help. *bow

Lol.

THIS THREAD!

:rolleyes:

[scahare]

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-MAy34gdmpOM/UaeAmNyxRJI/AAAAAAAABgs/Opnd0gUAvyw/w800-h640-no/hate_tmo_wipe_art.jpg

[Cecily]

Didnt Europa get the Inny loot anyways?

[Asap]

I can't tell if this thread is to bash or praise a guild

[sulious]

""10:40 PM CET: Inny is killed by TMO. Our members are all dead, 20 minutes of nothing. I contact Eccezan and ask what just happened and why he thought training our raid was a good idea. He apologized and said they had a train themselves and offered to rezz everyone of us at zone in and that we could have 2 loots (clr hammer and enc 1hb)as they don't need it.""

Give them all INNY loot?

[webrunner5]

Thanks for clearing that up on both sides.

That statement is clear as mud. :o

[webrunner5]

Thanks for clearing that up on both sides.

That statement is clear as mud. :o Ahh maybe today, well not sure, if we can. etc.

[Droog007]

Starting to wonder how many forum accounts with the root word "slave" are soon to be created...

[maverixdamighty]

I agree with you.


Here is where you become a fucking shill for the establishment. FTE is Classic and Variance is not. WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET THE COHONES to gainsay this?? Did you even fucking play EverQuest in The Year 2000?!

the version of FTE we have here is not classic at all from my experience. there is no way a GM on live would give raid loot to a single person who just hit the mob first then did nothing else.

[Cecily]

the version of FTE we have here is not classic at all from my experience. there is no way a GM on live would give raid loot to a single person who just hit the mob first then did nothing else.

Those GMs were also... paid.

[Strifer]

Here is where you become a fucking shill for the establishment. FTE is Classic and Variance is not. WHERE THE FUCK DO YOU GET THE COHONES to gainsay this?? Did you even fucking play EverQuest in The Year 2000?!

Comparing gm rules then and now is moot due to the fact that 13 years ago we didn't have an entire endgame of folks who knew exactly what to do all the time, nor were raid mobs on lockdown nearly as much as they could be now. We all played in the year 2000, but if you want to go there 2000 didn't last for the 2-3 years we have been on Kunark.

If anything you should be thankful the staff is trying to implement ways to help everyone get a shot at something.

Take your rant to RnF where you can drink all the haterade you want to quench your thirst after downing so many hater tots.

http://i.imgur.com/302aBpe.gif

[HallygukRZ]

Been following this discussion as I've started it. And sorry, that was not meant to be a GM discussion. Classic, not classic, GM whatever.

All I wanted to hint at is that the p99 raiding experience could be much better if there was honest and direct communication between all parties involved. Like adults, you know :p

[Yardcore]

What i got from this,

Got leap frog, by the big guild. "Unwanted Loots" were given for damage control/PR, due to "... oh sorry I trained you."

[Apeople]

the trainer will be suspended and the training guild will not be allowed to contest that mob next time it spawns. if they do not adhere to that punishment, or if that punishment is not effective, then the guild as a whole should expect a raid suspension.

So... since TMO admitted in this post to having trained can they therefore not attempt the next inny spawn?

[stonez138]

Ask him yourself if it will make you happy, the GMs have seen and know about at least 3 different guilds pulling Innoruuk/Maestro to zone in


Why is it that TMO can pull Maestro and 20+ mobs to zone in WHEN THEY KNOW another guild is there, effictively training/wiping the other guild while they just kill Maestro and log? How is that not intentional training?

[Ele]

Why is it that TMO can pull Maestro and 20+ mobs to zone in WHEN THEY KNOW another guild is there, effictively training/wiping the other guild while they just kill Maestro and log? How is that not intentional training?

"intentional" requires intent to train. Accidents happen, bad pulls happen, the streams get crossed.

[getsome]

Being reckless is not accidental.

[Ele]

Being reckless is not accidental.

intentional > knowing > reckless > negligent

way down there on the culpability scale

but we can't forget about strict liability!

[scahare]

Didnt Europa get the Inny loot anyways?

With All your respect Cecily, i told to our members to don't loot your rotting stuff. After that, they do what they want. But im not to loot rotting stuff when it droped in this kind of issue / condition. Next time TMO or Whoever are on the point to pull Inny or Cazic, just be cool and let us know so we can move into a safe point, or reach safe house and log properly so we don't get that feeling and bad taste in the mouth that you just don't give a shit about anything and anybody on this server. Thankz again for your attention and so long.

Malfrat Vive`Noire

[stonez138]

"intentional" requires intent to train. Accidents happen, bad pulls happen, the streams get crossed.

So if I light a fire in a building full of people with the intent of getting warm then its ok because I didn't have the intent to burn anyones property or kill somebody even though that's going to be an obvious and unavoidable consequence? I know this comparisson is a stretch at best but if the side effects of what your doing is obvious to you then it is intentional.

[Cecily]

Regular flossing, brushing, and rinsing with mouth wash should help.

[Damocle]

Didnt Europa get the Inny loot anyways?

Dear Cecily,

This thread is not about loot, it's about the chance to kill an important mob in EverQuest.

Nothing we didnt do before on live tho, but it's always good to have a challenge.

Damocle

[Gurbuuk]

for info, drops "allowed" to be loot were a cleric hammer and a enc wand

http://wiki.project1999.org/Innoruuk_%28God%29

[Clark]

having your raid wiped by Inny when you are in the Church and 20 man hours of time wasted. I would have a sour taste as well, if I went up to hate to farm armor late in the night and had my time wasted by a guild that should easily be able to engage inny without wiping the entire zone.

http://s14.postimg.org/vauzuvd41/notserious4.jpg

[enr4ged]

3PM CET: We hear that Naggy is up and move with a small team of 7 <Europa> guildies to SolB and start clearing to Naggy. Meanwhile 20 members of <The Mystical Order> have zoned in, while we wipe on some FG train (haha, newbs!). We then thought well, you made the race grats! Before gating out we askIvandyrs/Zeelott if we might stay and join the fight, ofc just for the fun. He said "why not, hell yeah" and together we slay the dragon. For some of us this has been a 1st-timer! Ivandyrs was kind enough to even offer us to loot the katana. 7 very happy members of Europa, thanks!


I was in sol b when Naggy popped. I was working on pulling skarlon when I saw the Europa group taking on some fire giants, it looked like there cc wasn't sticking so I went over to help root the giants for them. No more than a minute later I see a TMO member flying over with 2-3 giants on him and just piled them on to the group.

I was thinking to myself, "I can't believe TMO just resorted to training this group because they felt threatened by their presence"

It's such a shame TMO has to farm level 50 content and train other people in the process. I honestly think that if I haven't called out TMO in ooc they would have just left the zone without even resurrecting them.

[raff01]

I think the whole point is that when a small guild has the misfortune to be in the way of the 2 big guilds ever competing against each other, there are casualties...
In other words, some hardcore player's grit and obsession for loot and major raid targets ruin the fun of other guilds...and that's sad.

[raff01]

Didnt Europa get the Inny loot anyways?

Yup, this sums up pretty much what's wrong with all of you people.
All you care about is loot.
To such an extent that you're too blind to see what you've done and you think 2 crappy loot pieces which you didn't need would suffice to cover for your actions.
What you just said is like 2 big 250 lbs dudes fighting at a party ruining the furniture, food etc and knocking around people whio were in the way...And in the end giving you 5 bucks and expect you to be happy about it.
Pathetic.

[Toodles]

Disclaimer: This post has not been created to stir drama or point finger at anyone.
My only aim is to _maybe_ have a few people pause and think about how you play a videogame and how it impacts other people.

3PM CET: We hear that Naggy is up and move with a small team of 7 <Europa> guildies to SolB and start clearing to Naggy. Meanwhile 20 members of <The Mystical Order> have zoned in, while we wipe on some FG train (haha, newbs!). We then thought well, you made the race grats! Before gating out we askIvandyrs/Zeelott if we might stay and join the fight, ofc just for the fun. He said "why not, hell yeah" and together we slay the dragon. For some of us this has been a 1st-timer! Ivandyrs was kind enough to even offer us to loot the katana. 7 very happy members of Europa, thanks!

8 PM CET: I'm leading 20 Europa members to port up into Hate and we start our weekly raid fun.
We notice one TMO rogue being there and guessed that Inny was in window. Anyhow, we play like pros and get some nice loots.

10 PM CET: Our tracker says "Hey guys, I think Inny just spawned.. FO REAL". By then TMO and FE members already pile up at WC wiz spire and one of our officers talks to a FE officer and they say:
"Hey, let's have Europa have a shot at Inny. They never did it." Cool move, we think! Although we probably would have wiped anyway...

10:20 PM CET: Inny starts shouting and 20-25 TMO members engage him somewhere. Our raid is camped in church. After we see the numbers dropping, 3-4 minutes, we get Inny and 10+ adds on our raid - wiping us, including clerics.

10:40 PM CET: Inny is killed by TMO. Our members are all dead, 20 minutes of nothing. I contact Eccezan and ask what just happened and why he thought training our raid was a good idea. He apologized and said they had a train themselves and offered to rezz everyone of us at zone in and that we could have 2 loots (clr hammer and enc 1hb) as they don't need it. Aalpha and Flemming dragged and rezzed our corpses.

23:10 PM CET: We can continue to clear some more Hate.
Unfortunately quite a few people have to log as it's late (we are mostly european)
and some of our members have a sour taste left, that someone would do what just happened.


In the end, it all depends on how you want to play the game.
And how you want to be perceived by others.


I feel bad that the Europeans are ahead in the time zones. If they were behind North America, they'd have to put up with the drama and bullshit of other guilds a lot less.

[xarzzardorn]

how magnanimous of FE

if europa was in the church then they shouldn't even be in the way of the pull. blame the awful hate pathing on tmo if it makes you feel better

[rafaone]

Didnt Europa get the Inny loot anyways?

This thread is not about looting, is about how 1 guild can screw another one EQ experience without looking back.

But to answer you, Well, yeah 1 piece of shit for 1 hour wasted. Anyway, I still believe we did bad looting anything that day.

[raff01]

how magnanimous of FE

if europa was in the church then they shouldn't even be in the way of the pull. blame the awful hate pathing on tmo if it makes you feel better

I don't know, but to me it looks like you want to make it sound as if TMO were innocent and Europa was just bitchin because it makes you feel better.

[Ele]

So if I light a fire in a building full of people with the intent of getting warm then its ok because I didn't have the intent to burn anyones property or kill somebody even though that's going to be an obvious and unavoidable consequence? I know this comparisson is a stretch at best but if the side effects of what your doing is obvious to you then it is intentional.

Depends on the arson statute and what level of culpability is required. It is usually separated by degrees of arson based on property value or death/injury to person.

Speaking of your example, your actor would lack "intent" but likely acted knowingly or recklessly.

Not to drag this out further with semantics, but the original point was "intentional" training requires "intent" to train.

[falkun]

Ele, all of that could have been avoided via:
1) OP's point: honest communication
2) Fighting Inny on/near spawn with the few adds that exist between Port-in and Inny when another guild has already cleared to Church
3) Taking the time to clear to Inny when your 'competition' has already backed off

TMO knowingly created a clusterfuck in Hate. This clusterfuck was entirely unnecessary per the facts provided.

[raff01]

Depends on the arson statute and what level of culpability is required. It is usually separated by degrees of arson based on property value or death/injury to person.

Speaking of your example, your actor would lack "intent" but likely acted knowingly or recklessly.

Not to drag this out further with semantics, but the original point was "intentional" training requires "intent" to train.


There's a difference : that might not have been intentional training as in "training with the purpose of training." but rather: not giving a single fuck that you might very well train someone by trying to achieve your goal. The goal in question here being Inny being pulled to zone.

So sure its not as despicable as intentionally training for the sake of trainning, but its still a jackass move nevertheless.

[Ele]

Ele, all of that could have been avoided via:
1) OP's point: honest communication
2) Fighting Inny on/near spawn with the few adds that exist between Port-in and Inny when another guild has already cleared to Church
3) Taking the time to clear to Inny when your 'competition' has already backed off


I don't disagree with any of those points. The first pull was a poorly executed pull because the puller had bad information about the spawn layout (being told it was mostly clear to Inny), and thus rushing to get pull down to zone in.

[Skope]

So you train a guild (or more than one, as I remember last time we attempted Inny), and with proof the guild that benefited gets a suspension of a single raid mob...

... and you really expect me, or anybody else, to actually follow the rules?

Perhaps I'm out of my fucking mind here, but I really don't think that measly of a punishment is much of a deterrent. In fact, that's probably why Inny turns into a shitshow every single time he's up and why guilds are actively avoiding the crapfest. You've got to record everything that goes on and take a plethora of screenshots and hope you're in the right position and then barely anything happens. I'm not seeing how that's an improvement over that RNG FTE/poopsock thing you hate so much

[enr4ged]

I think it's clear from this thread we can assume one of two things:
1. TMO players purposely train other guilds while going for raid bosses.
2. TMO players are unskilled and accidentally train others cause they don't understand the game.

[enr4ged]

So you train a guild (or more than one, as I remember last time we attempted Inny), and with proof the guild that benefited gets a suspension of a single raid mob...

... and you really expect me, or anybody else, to actually follow the rules?

Perhaps I'm out of my fucking mind here, but I really don't think that measly of a punishment is much of a deterrent. In fact, that's probably why Inny turns into a shitshow every single time he's up and why guilds are actively avoiding the crapfest. You've got to record everything that goes on and take a plethora of screenshots and hope you're in the right position and then barely anything happens. I'm not seeing how that's an improvement over that RNG FTE/poopsock thing you hate so much

Pretty much this...
In this current game state I don't even want to put in the effort towards raiding as every encounter I've come across so far has resulted in mass trains and volatile situations in an effort to secure the boss.

Most people would rather avoid those situations.

Clean up the raid scene by enforcing harsher penalties to get most of the scum out of the game and you'd probably get a lot more interest from the people who are respectful of others.

[Skope]

I think it's clear from this thread we can assume one of two things:
1. TMO players purposely train other guilds while going for raid bosses.
2. TMO players are unskilled and accidentally train others cause they don't understand the game.

If you're lower level you can aggro from the 2nd floor depending on where you are on the first. Likewise, you can also catch body aggro from inny's train heading towards entrance if you're near Inny's handicap access ramp.

What's more interesting is that a single raid mob being crossed off the list is sufficient punishment for training; or punishment at all, frankly.

Another case of P99 antics, where the GMs/guides complain about the players behavior but then don't follow through with punishments to deter from such behavior.

_

Don't train each other and make me answer petitions all the damn time! But, if you do and have proof, don't worry about actually being punished for it.

Just don't do it again!

_

How does this keep happening?!?

[Hurley]

magnanimous is a great word.

[Visual]

Collateral damage

Looks like they got you resd up and were back in commission before too long. Also, why not attempt an engage of your own with 20+ people? It couldn't have faired any worse for you and you could have had a nice pair of monk shoulders if you succeeded :)

Food for thought

[Dirtnap]

Read through like six pages of this thread, and couldn't read any more.

This thread was obviously supposed to be a GOOD thing. Then the shitbags swarm and focusing on one detail of the entire first post.

Good game dumb asses, you made yourselves look even more immature.

[enr4ged]

Collateral damage

Looks like they got you resd up and were back in commission before too long. Also, why not attempt an engage of your own with 20+ people? It couldn't have faired any worse for you and you could have had a nice pair of monk shoulders if you succeeded :)

Food for thought

Are you moronic? You are seriously this dumb that you have to ask why they didn't engage?

Ok so let me lay this out for you.
1. A guild who has probably never attempted Inny sees he has spawned
so they start discussing what to do...
"do we have enough to kill him?"
"where does he spawn"
"is the way clear"
a million questions and hesitations in their mind at this point, and they are super excited at the fact they may even get to attempt him
2. They are getting ready and thinking about how to go about it since they have never done it before.
3. Fast forward five minutes where a whole raid of TMO is already in the zone and begins to leap frog past them and pull inny to the zone in, training them in the process.

Are you beginning to see yet why they "didn't attempt to engage him"?
You really expect a guild who has probably never done inny, let alone see him with a group of people who have never coordinated together before on that particular boss to pull in under 5 minutes?

Get a clue man... not all guilds know the tricks and use the borderline exploit and douche bag tactics that you use.

[webrunner5]

Are you moronic? You are seriously this dumb that you have to ask why they didn't engage?

Ok so let me lay this out for you.
1. A guild who has probably never attempted Inny sees he has spawned
so they start discussing what to do...
"do we have enough to kill him?"
"where does he spawn"
"is the way clear"
a million questions and hesitations in their mind at this point, and they are super excited at the fact they may even get to attempt him
2. They are getting ready and thinking about how to go about it since they have never done it before.
3. Fast forward five minutes where a whole raid of TMO is already in the zone and begins to leap frog past them and pull inny to the zone in, training them in the process.

Are you beginning to see yet why they "didn't attempt to engage him"?
You really expect a guild who has probably never done inny, let alone see him with a group of people who have never coordinated together before on that particular boss to pull in under 5 minutes?

Get a clue man... not all guilds know the tricks and use the borderline exploit and douche bag tactics that you use.

I hope you don't live next to the Raid Leader. He might kick you ass if he reads this. :eek:

[Halfelfbard]

Are you moronic? You are seriously this dumb that you have to ask why they didn't engage?

Ok so let me lay this out for you.
1. A guild who has probably never attempted Inny sees he has spawned
so they start discussing what to do...
"do we have enough to kill him?"
"where does he spawn"
"is the way clear"
a million questions and hesitations in their mind at this point, and they are super excited at the fact they may even get to attempt him
2. They are getting ready and thinking about how to go about it since they have never done it before.
3. Fast forward five minutes where a whole raid of TMO is already in the zone and begins to leap frog past them and pull inny to the zone in, training them in the process.

Are you beginning to see yet why they "didn't attempt to engage him"?
You really expect a guild who has probably never done inny, let alone see him with a group of people who have never coordinated together before on that particular boss to pull in under 5 minutes?

Get a clue man... not all guilds know the tricks and use the borderline exploit and douche bag tactics that you use.

Dude that just sounds terrible for Europa, I know ur trying to stick up for them but damn man. Every member i've grouped with hell even raided with in Europa has bin a good player. They could have killed it, dont deny them.

[scahare]

Fact, we wasn't ready , not the knowledge and the experience, and most of all, not enough people to kill him. Because we never killed him before, because that particulary day we were pretty weak with a lack of usual raid attendance players, on cleric , experienced hate puller, etc etc. So despite leting us quietly into hate to do our best without any pressure why not. But Anyway that not the concern of all that story.

And anyway like Enr4ged mention it...we didn't realised that Inny was up that 5 min later and it's true the zone was invaded. Im more concern about the training here. Last time we have been betrayed by GM cause server needed to reboot, and they assured us that no full mobs / named / boss repop. Of course we came back one by one into the safe house. All mobs repoped, and we wiped. Just after there were more than 100+ players into the zone TMO / FE / BDA / Taken fighting each others for Maestro and Inny and training everybody & each other on the process....was ulgy.. .

Third of all : Who care bout your so called rez excuse ? who care about your so called Rott item that you don't need ? Nobody.

[enr4ged]

Dude that just sounds terrible for Europa, I know ur trying to stick up for them but damn man. Every member i've grouped with hell even raided with in Europa has bin a good player. They could have killed it, dont deny them.

Never denied the fact that they could do it.
But when you are about to get your one shot at a raid mob you don't want to fuck it up.
And then the TMO train plows you down.

[Millburn]

It's truly worrisome that after 13 years some simple decency hasn't embedded itself in our little community. Usually we mature with age, where did that progress stop? Can we all just agree to not being a bunch of shit eating wiener wizards for once?

[Brut]

If only we had a page in the forums that thoroughly explained this "Intentional or not"-aspect of training.

Training
Training can be defined as the intentional manipulation of NPC Placement and Aggro in such a way that causes it to attack another player that it wouldn't have otherwise if at it's normal spawn location. The most basic form of this is "dumping" mobs near another player or party and escaping via a form of teleportation or death. Intentional or not, this is against the rules. This rule is not limited to the basic example given, as there are many different forms of training players will use. You take all responsibility for mobs that you aggro. If you are trying to escape from a pack of NPC's but there is another group in your way, do not run through them. Even if your intention is not to train them, it would inevitable cause this and you may be subject to disciplinary. It is recommended that you take the death (Your responsibility for aggroing the mobs) and request a resurrection from nearby players.

If you happen to accidentally train a group of players, please immedietely notify the staff via /petition that you have done so by accident. Apologize to the players in question, and assist them with any recovery needed. If the staff hears about your train before you tell them, intention is no longer an excuse. (Repeated unintentional trains will still result in disciplinary action).

Oh.

Also last paragraph is mostly practiced by the trainer /oocing "stop crying" after his train has wiped the other raid. Guess that's a form of apology to some.

[rafaone]

Collateral damage

Looks like they got you resd up and were back in commission before too long. Also, why not attempt an engage of your own with 20+ people? It couldn't have faired any worse for you and you could have had a nice pair of monk shoulders if you succeeded

Food for thought

Lol Korrath, very dumb post in my opinion as stated before. You expect us to engage Inny within 5 min poped as a casual guild? Give us 30 min at least and we could at least try. But no, Engage ASAP and train us, that the best thing to do.

Collateral damage, Food for though, yeah ..

[Beaniron]

TMO considers raid rotation: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oavMtUWDBTM

Also, how is it that TMO is frequently accused of deliberately training competition in zones that they're raiding in and they never get punished for it?

[Deanob]

That's like giving a homeless guy a half eaten donut.

GJ TMO.

[fohkure]

shit eating wiener wizards

best part of da thread

[Skope]

It's truly worrisome that after 13 years some simple decency hasn't embedded itself in our little community. Usually we mature with age, where did that progress stop? Can we all just agree to not being a bunch of shit eating wiener wizards for once?

Fostering and encouraging that douchey attitude for years will have that effect.

[Razdeline]

All I got out of this was, TMO leapfrogged 2 guilds, FE was trying to do the Noble thing and let the newbs get a piece.

TMO gives the shittiest loots to Europa, most likely for PR instead of kindness...But at the same token I would be offended I was offered shit loots.

It's the same feeling when Diggle puts 1cp in trade, annoying.

TMO wipes to Innoruuk.

Zeelot has a character named Ivandyr...Good to know considering they started utilizing the hoop exploit.

TMO using invis pull exploit to kill raid mobs.

Europa gets trained, where they are expected to rez. (It isn't kindness doing what you are supposed to do)


I miss anything?

[Tecmos Deception]

All I got out of this was, TMO leapfrogged 2 guilds, FE was trying to do the Noble thing and let the newbs get a piece.

TMO gives the shittiest loots to Europa, most likely for PR instead of kindness...But at the same token I would be offended I was offered shit loots.

It's the same feeling when Diggle puts 1cp in trade, annoying.

TMO wipes to Innoruuk.

Zeelot has a character named Ivandyr...Good to know considering they started utilizing the hoop exploit.

TMO using invis pull exploit to kill raid mobs.

Europa gets trained, where they are expected to rez. (It isn't kindness doing what you are supposed to do)


I miss anything?

Someone call the mods, it looks like Harrison hacked Raz's forum account.

[Rhambuk]

Someone call the mods, it looks like Harrison hacked Raz's forum account.

you mean tmo hacked raz's forum account and posted this to try and frame harrison for hacking raz's forum account. They're so diabolical!

[Razdeline]

you mean tmo hacked raz's forum account and posted this to try and frame harrison for hacking raz's forum account. They're so diabolical!

This

[Razdeline]

This thread is a pot, and it needs stirring

[Razdeline]

Surprised no one commented on TMO wiping to Innoruuk, that is the most offensive part of all.

[Splorf22]

It's truly worrisome that after 13 years some simple decency hasn't embedded itself in our little community. Usually we mature with age, where did that progress stop? Can we all just agree to not being a bunch of shit eating wiener wizards for once?

The problem is that the way the raid mechanics work encourage competition not cooperation. The players have simply adapted to way the raid scene works.

[Beaniron]

The problem is that the way the raid mechanics work encourage competition not cooperation. The players have simply adapted to way the raid scene works.

And this is why games made after EQ had instanced raids so that each guild could have a fair shot at the content on their own terms, not world mobs on long-ass respawn timers that guilds had to fight over for pulling rights.

[Tecmos Deception]

And this is why games made after EQ had instanced raids so that each guild could have a fair shot at the content on their own terms, not world mobs on long-ass respawn timers that guilds had to fight over for pulling rights.

No. Instances were created because of $$$, not because developers dreamed of unity amongst MMO gamers. A lack of instancing would mean either 1) needing to develop a lot more content, which would cost extra money or 2) a bunch of people get unhappy because of lack of available content and they stop playing, which would mean less money coming in.

[Beaniron]

No. Instances were created because of $$$, not because developers dreamed of unity amongst MMO gamers. A lack of instancing would mean either 1) needing to develop a lot more content, which would cost extra money or 2) a bunch of people get unhappy because of lack of available content and they stop playing, which would mean less money coming in.

Okay Mr. semantics. The point I was making is that if EQ was designed around instanced raids back in the day instead of the way it is now, the community would be a lot more cooperative and a lot less competitive.

[kotton05]

Surprised no one commented on TMO wiping to Innoruuk, that is the most offensive part of all.
Well they wiped to fay... so an Inny wipe isn't that shocking. What really sucks is they couldn't let Europa even engage knowing this is a very rare encounter for them...

FE confirmed trying to promote healthy guild relations. Ruined by TMO not being able to pull Inny w/o wiping entire zone>.<

Lets reflect, TMO pings trak over FE after they wipe, nothing happens. FE member aggro's tola and engages trak on TMO engage... TMO kills dragon with 40 in 15 seconds and the train doesnt effect the outcome yet FE gets suspended from a spawn.... TMO monk pulls VS out of VS room right when he spawns onto FE members wiping us... still waiting on that decision.... if anything now its time for TMO to sit out an Inny/vs/ct/trak spawn i'd say. But most likely nothing will happen and if it does i'd be shocked.

[Beaniron]

Well they wiped to fay... so an Inny wipe isn't that shocking. What really sucks is they couldn't let Europa even engage knowing this is a very rare encounter for them...

FE confirmed trying to promote healthy guild relations. Ruined by TMO not being able to pull Inny w/o wiping entire zone>.<

Lets reflect, TMO pings trak over FE after they wipe, nothing happens. FE member aggro's tola and engages trak on TMO engage... TMO kills dragon with 40 in 15 seconds and the train doesnt effect the outcome yet FE gets suspended from a spawn.... TMO monk pulls VS out of VS room right when he spawns onto FE members wiping us... still waiting on that decision.... if anything now its time for TMO to sit out an Inny/vs/ct/trak spawn i'd say. But most likely nothing will happen and if it does i'd be shocked.

Does TMO get special treatment from the GM's or something?

[Rhambuk]

Does TMO get special treatment from the GM's or something?

only if you listen to harison...

[Jarnauga]

Europa begins to contest mobs..

TMO prolly has toons tagged by now, plus access to their forums :rolleyes:

[Tecmos Deception]

Okay Mr. semantics. The point I was making is that if EQ was designed around instanced raids back in the day instead of the way it is now, the community would be a lot more cooperative and a lot less competitive.

Instances have never fostered cooperation. The damn things totally eliminate any need for cooperation, after all, since everyone can do their instances on their time at their pace without fear of losing anything because of it. But every game with instances is still competitive, with everyone always racing to firsts and flaunting their gear in front of people who have yet to acquire that gear.

[Splorf22]

No. Instances were created because of $$$, not because developers dreamed of unity amongst MMO gamers.

It doesn't really matter why they did it.

[Rhambuk]

Though I believe instancing destroys server community, at least in wow and eq2 from what i saw, I do prefer it to global spawns.

When I play a game its on my time, i want to raid on my time when i want to. I don't play video games to cancel plans with friends because Batphone something spawned.

Some people like the competition etc, its just not for me.

[Splorf22]

Instances have never fostered cooperation. The damn things totally eliminate any need for cooperation, after all, since everyone can do their instances on their time at their pace without fear of losing anything because of it. But every game with instances is still competitive, with everyone always racing to firsts and flaunting their gear in front of people who have yet to acquire that gear.

I don't understand this post at all. Clearly the level of competition between someone who happens to have higher pixel counts on the magelo and someone who is actively cockblocking you is entirely different.

[Razdeline]

Does TMO get special treatment from the GM's or something?

No.

The GM's here are very balanced and fair afaik.

The problem is: TMO does get punished and has more suspensions than any other guild on the server.
They ride the line of "known and accepted" exploits to get away with what they do.
From time to time, GM's will step in and say they will suspend anyone using one of these "Known Exploits". One reprimandable example of this: Popping Eye of Zomm to the zone to target and CoH people to Trak, or around in V.P. Also utilizing certain pathing exploits. Stuff like this.

Not saying all of their members are bad. Some good folks there. But the guild itself is ran by major trolls on the forums/ingame, and they will say anything. (Lie, spin, blame other guilds for whatever "exploits/Ksing/ETC" they are accused of)

You can expect some of those very people to jump in and try to spin what I just said in this thread. Welcome to p99.

[Beaniron]

Instances have never fostered cooperation. The damn things totally eliminate any need for cooperation, after all, since everyone can do their instances on their time at their pace without fear of losing anything because of it. But every game with instances is still competitive, with everyone always racing to firsts and flaunting their gear in front of people who have yet to acquire that gear.

But at least guilds that don't have that shiny gear yet at least have the OPPORTUNITY to acquire it when they're ready for the content and can do so at their own pace without having to worry about tracking down the mob and estimating its spawn timer, having a sufficient force online and ready when the mob spawns into the world, or being mowed down by the TMO shit plow when they get there first.

Competition would still exist, but it would be in a healthy form, where everyone would have a fair chance at the content, and it wouldn't be on 24/7 lockdown with the constant threat of being trained for even contesting it.

[Razdeline]

Instancing destroys mmos. This is a philisophical debate.

[Beaniron]

Instancing destroys mmos. This is a philisophical debate.

You won't convince me of that until you explain why and provide concrete examples that support your claims.

[kotton05]

Instancing promotes isolation and distorts the community into even smaller cliques. If EQ was instanced there would be no competition. so therefor boring.

[Beaniron]

Instancing promotes isolation and distorts the community into even smaller cliques. If EQ was instanced there would be no competition. so therefor boring.

Competition should not mean rival guilds getting trained just for being in the same zone as a planned raid, accidental or not.

[Tecmos Deception]

You won't convince me of that until you explain why and provide concrete examples that support your claims.

It's a trap, Raz. He's just going to call you an aspie and then go off on little tangents left and right when you best him with logic.

[Beaniron]

It's a trap, Raz. He's just going to call you an aspie and then go off on little tangents left and right when you best him with logic.

I'll accept what he says if I agree with it. But what I believe at present is that guilds having to fight one another for the right to kill something, and entire raid forces getting wiped because one guild is so insecure that they have to resort to training their rivals, is not healthy for the server.

[Rhambuk]

Instancing promotes isolation and distorts the community into even smaller cliques. If EQ was instanced there would be no competition. so therefor boring.

Theres already no competition, theres no endgame unless your in tmo/fe.

unless you count hate/fear clears (while no named are up lest you be trained) competitive raids

[Beaniron]

Theres already no competition, theres no endgame unless your in tmo/fe.

unless you count hate/fear clears (while no named are up lest you be trained) competitive raids

Well, end-game for me is full planar armor and Fiery Defender. If I achieve both of those goals, I will consider my character complete.

[Razdeline]

Like I said, philisophical. The industry has not been around long enough for people to have the ability to quantify what "Works" and "Does not work".

It's like government. We can argue that a Democracy is the best form of Government, but we can also agree that the longest surviving civilizations did not use Democracy as their form of Government. Also, no Democracy from the past has endured. They all eventually failed. This also applied for communism, Feudalism, theocracy, etc.

So to say we "Know" what works and doesn't work is ignorant.

That being said, I can not back my claims. Although, there are some facts that coincide with open world, contested content.

1) Drama. It causes a lot of drama, and people flock to it. Negative and positive emotions create social interaction. This interaction builds relationships, and acts as a motivator for individuals to keep playing.

2)Competition. Competition is genetic. Most organisms on Earth compete. Whether it be for food, a mate, anything. Competition is part of the game. Mix in the drama and it becomes very compelling.

3) Social interaction. Having open world, non-instanced zones forces people to solve dynamic social problems in game. By doing this, friendships, or enemies are made. Whether it be helping people out, or seeking revenge...either of these things are possible in EQ.

4) Time. I am sure you have heard the phrase, "Time is Money". Instancing cuts down on the time it takes to complete quests, get gear, etc. It essentially dumbs a game down. No matter how "Dynamic" you make it, having the first 3 factors I mentioned above adds VALUE to your character. The more time you put into something, the more valuable it becomes.

These are just my thoughts. I could be wrong, or right.

[Beaniron]

Well, when you put it that way, it does make the idea of instancing a lot less appealing. Still, it's frustrating when you're not allowed to do something in game simply because you don't know the right people, even if you're geared and experienced for it.

[Razdeline]

Like I said, philisophical. The industry has not been around long enough for people to have the ability to quantify what "Works" and "Does not work".

And to add to this. I am pretty sure this is the exact reason why the industry has come out with really bad MMO's lately. All these "Businesses" are trying to emulate a business model that they think "works".

They feel they "know" how to a create a AAA MMO. Yet, the industry trend is serial failing.

[raff01]

Instancing promotes isolation and distorts the community into even smaller cliques. If EQ was instanced there would be no competition. so therefor boring.

Instances are by definition the opposite of MMO...
They should NEVER have seen the day. They were made to appeal to stupid 8 year old spoiled brats who wanted the feeling of owning the game.

[Beaniron]

And to add to this. I am pretty sure this is the exact reason why the industry has come out with really bad MMO's lately. All these "Businesses" are trying to emulate a business model that they think "works".

They feel they "know" how to a create a AAA MMO. Yet, the industry trend is serial failing.

All I'm saying is that people shouldn't be denied from serious progression raiding simply because they're not a member of TMO, FE, or BDA (I know BDA does serious raiding, or at least used to).

[Rhambuk]

Well, end-game for me is full planar armor and Fiery Defender. If I achieve both of those goals, I will consider my character complete.

and congratulations! =)

Everyone plays to their own style and thats fine its what makes this game great, however when you reach max level have full planar and your epic then what? retire until velious? make a new char and do it again?

Progression stops at planar unless your in tmo fe. Guilds before tmo and fe had set the precedent and its insane. Texting 40 people to wake up at 2:36am because a dragon spawned is some hardcore dedication.

It would just be nice to casually attempt these mobs, honestly spawn them with NO LOOT and you would still see the same ridiculous "competition" between the high end guilds because they need to say i won im better. i could almost guarantee that casual guilds would be ecstatic if devs spawned lootless bosses just to do them for the experience for the nostalgia for the fun. I know I would, but theres more to this than pixels for me

[Razdeline]

All I'm saying is that people shouldn't be denied from serious progression raiding simply because they're not a member of TMO, FE, or BDA (I know BDA does serious raiding, or at least used to).

And that's where the social interaction comes in. Do you have the Time to raid, and get what you need? Maybe you can make friends with some of the members from these guilds if you don't, and they can help you get an epic. I have heard of stories like this happening in the past, and it's ultimately not a far fetched idea.

[August]

i think instancing in and of itself is fine. I prefer the classic WoW or LDON model though:

Find LFG people
Travel to zone in
Zone in -> Do instance
Gate out, or run it again cuz you made some new friends


Now it's.

Log in
Click Button
Run around smashing your head against keyboard
Ninja loot everything NEED
Click Button Again - Rinse and Repeat

I wouldn't instance the raid mobs, though, or if I did the prizes would be scaled down version of the non-instanced. a 28% CoF instead of whatever it is, etc. Kind of like an 'easy mode' to the encounters, much like the 'LFR' system that goes on in WoW today. Except I wouldn't be in favor of dumbing them down, and I'd probably make it so that you can only queue for it once a week, or something like that.

That actually sounds awesome, now that I think about it. What were we talking about again?

[Uggme]

and congratulations! =)

Everyone plays to their own style and thats fine its what makes this game great, however when you reach max level have full planar and your epic then what? retire until velious? make a new char and do it again?

Progression stops at planar unless your in tmo fe. Guilds before tmo and fe had set the precedent and its insane. Texting 40 people to wake up at 2:36am because a dragon spawned is some hardcore dedication.

It would just be nice to casually attempt these mobs, honestly spawn them with NO LOOT and you would still see the same ridiculous "competition" between the high end guilds because they need to say i won im better. i could almost guarantee that casual guilds would be ecstatic if devs spawned lootless bosses just to do them for the experience for the nostalgia for the fun. I know I would, but theres more to this than pixels for me

You and I differ on a lot of things, but I agree with all of this. I too believe that a bad precedent has been set from early on and there's a cycle of destructive behavior simply propagating itself now.

Setting your own goals and not worrying about the bullshit is a sure-fire way to have an amazing time. Seeing as a level 30 SK is as far as I've gotten, I'll be keeping my own goals in mind while climbing the exp ladder.

It will certainly be fun!

P.S - It would be amazing to be able to defeat raid encounters that drop 0 loot for the nostalgia factor :)

[Beaniron]

And that's where the social interaction comes in. Do you have the Time to raid, and get what you need? Maybe you can make friends with some of the members from these guilds if you don't, and they can help you get an epic. I have heard of stories like this happening in the past, and it's ultimately not a far fetched idea.

That's probably what I'll end up having to do. Thankfully nothing in the Fiery Avenger/Defender quest requires a full raid force to take down, or is camped very often. One of the few benefits of playing a Paladin.

[Razdeline]

Hollar when you need help.

[Beaniron]

Hollar when you need help.

I'm level 18, so it's a long ways off, haha. But having Ghoulbane and SoulFire already (as well as maxed Deepwater Knight faction) saves me quite a bit of work later. I'm saving my money right now for a Book of Scale.

Also, this made me lol: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYQdmLgc71Q

[Rhambuk]

You and I differ on a lot of things, but I agree with all of this.


makes you feel a little dirty doesn't it? =)

[Rhambuk]

Also, this made me lol

These are kind of funny until you get up there and every raid is like this then its just...

http://ts3.explicit.bing.net/th?id=H.4589053326330098&pid=15.1

[kotton05]

Progression stops at planar unless your in tmo fe. Guilds before tmo and fe had set the precedent and its insane. Texting 40 people to wake up at 2:36am because a dragon spawned is some hardcore dedication.

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6977713408/h1318C5A7/

usually FE tops at 25ish, TMO pushes 40.. so thats 65+ people being txt'd at 2:36am mister! ;)

[Rhambuk]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/6977713408/h1318C5A7/

usually FE tops at 25ish, TMO pushes 40.. so thats 65+ people being txt'd at 2:36am mister! ;)

and thats just 2 guilds! imagine if there were 5-6 competing raid guilds. there are certainly enough people on the server no where near the dedication though

[Beaniron]

I have yet to even find myself a guild. I'm looking for one that accepts low levels, is respected, does planar content and has leveling groups and Ventrilo.

I'm very lonely on this server. lol

[kotton05]

I think a 3rd or 4th guild contesting would almost cause some type of rotation. But most likely it'd just end in a merge or just getting bored.

With FC in hate during the last Inny in raid force + fe + tmo it was atrocious and surprised the zone handled 100+ folks.

What gets me is just a little bit goes a long way in terms of thinking of others. A mentality clearly lost in a pursuit of old world pixel and kunark alike.

Most folks in Tmo/fe are just hardcore EQ'rs and cause no trouble. They just like rolling alts and getting raid loot. A very small percentage (pardon my bias) of people in TMO are unrelenting cblockers who's end game is to stop you yourself from experiencing it. FE has shown were willing to let other guilds attempt a spawn. Will TMO ever try that?...

It'd be cool to shout soandso just spawned in EC and watch who gets it or even help with ports. I know many guilds would like to try Inny for that Mage epic!

[Rhambuk]

Will TMO ever try that?...



Though they didn't officially say it I have encountered this personally, at least I believe it was. I was checking pofear to see if it was up so my guild at the time could clear it to gear up new members/alts. Not even a few minutes after I entered the zone I received a tell from a tmo member asking if we were going to clear fear. I told them yes we plan on it now that it was confirmed up.

I got no response and we never saw a tmo in the zone that night. I personally believe that they were going to clear it, probably an ae exp group or something, but seeing someone in a "lesser" guild in the zone they checked to see if we had plans on it and after confirmation they left us alone and found something else.

This is just what i believe, maybe they were just asking maybe they wanted to know if a certain mob was up or something blahblahblah. They checked out the zone, checked with the person in it if they had plans to do it, confirmed, and found something else.

[Beaniron]

Bump, did TMO get suspended for this obvious and blatant training? Or were they given another free pass as per usual?

At least four of their members got suspended for turning their own guild thread into an RNF, according to Sirken.

[Harrison'sNewName]

Bump, so when is someone going to do their job and enforce the rules posted on the front page?

Why even have rules if you're just going to ignore the ones breaking them?

[Frieza_Prexus]

Why even have rules if you're just going to ignore the ones breaking them?

Probably for the same reason that you refuse to follow the forum rules.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=96488

I wonder what it would look like if you had your way?

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=945072&postcount=34
I always figured that all forums should be open for posting only when you have a level 25 or so and that forum punishments should extend to the linked account. We could have a heavily moderated forum for brand new players that haven't been able to make an account yet so that they can get started.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=945153&postcount=37
I made that suggestion years ago.

Oh. You'd end up banning yourself and removing every trace of your presence here and on the server.

I think you may be on to something...

[Harrison'sNewName]

If one of my accounts was banned and all of TMO was wiped off the server, I'd be perfectly happy with that outcome.

I'll take the unjust ban in trade of facefucking you faggots into a suicidal depression.

[KessonDaslef]

If one of my accounts was banned and all of TMO was wiped off the server, I'd be perfectly happy with that outcome.

I'll take the unjust ban in trade of facefucking you faggots into a suicidal depression.

I second.

[Sarius]

Harrison, after you get your forum account banned again, will you please make your next name Harryballsack? It would be awesome!

[Tasslehofp99]

Damn.