Do P99 Devs, GMs and Guides Have Jobs?

[Alawen]

Harry and a couple other loud voices like to shout about P99 staff not doing their jobs, which got me to wondering: do they technically have jobs if they're volunteers?

My first inclination is to check the definition. Job is a word with a lot of uses, of course, but the definitions from multiple dictionaries that fit this context are inextricably tied to the concepts of pay and employment.

However, English is a rapidly changing language and dictionary definitions can lag usage. So I thought about contemporary usage I experience. I volunteer some of my time myself, so I know other people who volunteer there, and I also have many friends who volunteer for other things. One of my friends sits on the board of directors for a significant regional charity. No one I know speaks of their volunteer work as a job. Volunteer work is always distinct from employment, both in conversation and when written on a C.V.

So does anyone on the P99 staff have a job? If they're not getting paid, then the answer is no. They're volunteers. The RnF trolls shouting about staff not doing their jobs are not only rude and ungrateful, they're also factually incorrect.

[SamwiseRed]

they wouldnt have to do their "jobs" if the playerbase wasnt a bunch of shithead cheaters. i dont think they envisioned this many losers coming on an emu to cheat, scam, rmt, and hack.

[big league chew]

this would be better as a response to a thread no one clicks instead of a whole thread no one clicks
in my very important opinion

[Alawen]

they wouldnt have to do their "jobs" if the playerbase wasnt a bunch of shithead cheaters. i dont think they envisioned this many losers coming on an emu to cheat, scam, rmt, and hack.

I don't think I agree with that idea. Think about the total number of people who have played on P99, play on P99 now, or will play on P99 in the future. It's a pretty big number. That number of people is going to have all sorts of conflicts and issues. That number is also going to have a bell curve of really nice people, kind of nice people, not very nice people, and total jerks. I think it just takes a lot of effort to create and maintain this kind of project.

[bubur]

they're 'volunteers.' they dont make any money from p99, despite what a lot of people claim about RMT

they have, however, accepted responsibility to adhere to a specific set of guidelines as to what being a volunteer 'guide' or 'gm' is able and suppose to do. if these guidelines are not followed, ie they fail to do their volunteer 'job', then they will be removed from the volunteer team, as has happened in the past to some of them

that being said, they do the best they can without making any money for the love of everquest and for the enjoyment of responsibility over the project itself.

they also have actual jobs. those are not related to p99

[SamwiseRed]

red went without a gm for almost a year, somehow we managed. we didnt have kithicor forest for a good 6 months lol. shits classic. deal with it.

[Ephi]

Yes. All of us have jobs and do this on the side (or in my case, when I should be working). I'm a developer and technical consultant for a large international corporation, for instance. This is just what I do when I have a few minutes to spare.

[Tecmos Deception]

and they are not fulfilling the obligations of their volunteer assignment

By definition, a volunteer cannot have obligations.

[Tecmos Deception]

Sometimes I think it wouldn't suck so badly if we had a few of the RNF mega-nerds as Staff instead, who actually took this shit seriously.

P99 doesn't suck.

Basically every post of yours since you got upset about the p99 raid scene, got butthurt by your Slave account being banned, left to play LoL, keep saying you're taking long breaks from P99 and yet still are on these forums nonstop yelling about the raid scene? They suck.

[kank]

RNF mega-nerds as Staff instead, who actually took this shit seriously.

pot calling the kettle black?

[Ephi]

Sometimes I think it wouldn't suck so badly if we had a few of the RNF mega-nerds as Staff instead, who actually took this shit seriously.

I would have a hard time buying they would be good at staff because of their personal connections (and distastes) for much of their peers. Staff requires a certain disconnection from all the bullshit drama that occurs in RNF. Even though a lot of it is just for fun, those perceptions will carry into staff, and we can't have it. Also, the perception that we don't take this seriously is a little funny. Why would I do something as a volunteer for 10+ hours a week that I don't take seriously?

[Ephi]

10+ hours a week in one post, a few minutes at a time when you "have" the time in another... which is it? I can tell you one thing, you are not online enough or serious enough about your position to make a difference in the way in which Guides and GMs were intended.

How about banning some people for violating the PnP? How about some raid suspensions for repeated violations? How about doing your JOB?

LOL.

[Ephirith]

that should not go for naught due to uncaring developers and GMs.

You're concluding the developers and GM's are uncaring because they aren't policing the server exactly the way you'd like them to. I don't think that's something you should be so bitterly angry at them for.

If you're so emotionally invested that you feel the need to go Full Harrison on them and spew your shit all over the forums because you think you're going to contribute to the salvation of the server, maybe you need to step away and accept that they aren't going to be able to make you happy.

[mrmop520]

Not said enough- Thanks guides/devs for volunteering your time to make this server a fun place!

[Tecmos Deception]

There is very little to no impetus for me to be polite, or subtle, or likeable, since I did all that with my other account and it was banned regardless.

I'm not talking about you being less-than-gentile or something. I'm talking about how every single thing you post is a rant about the endgame that is entirely premised on the FAULTY premise that the server and all the hours everyone spends on it are meaningless just because TMO dominates the raid scene.


Example:

People are not upset because 1 guild is getting all the loot.

People are upset because the game mechanics under Variance (something that never existed on this Earth until P99) favor zerg guilds unClassically, resulting in the above.

People are upset because this has been THE issue on P99 for a long time now, and even though steps were about to be made in the right direction, they were recently reversed and no explanation was given as to why.

People are upset because the developers seem to favor TMO in game mechanics and GMs seem to favor them in rulings at every opportunity to do so.

People are upset because they see the PnP continuously trampled by a single group of people on this server, and are never punished for it.

People are upset because they see their loyalty and time put into this server all becoming meaningless due to an artificially created status quo that seems extremely sketchy and nefarious and perhaps is supporting Random Mother Theories.

You posted that in a thread that was about no drop being removed, in a thread where no one before you had mentioned the devs, variance, the raid scene, TMO, or people being upset about loot, PnP, or anything like that. You even went down the staff RMT conspiracy road, for Christ's sake. You single-handedly took everything that populates R&F posts and brought it into a normal server-chat thread.


No, the raid scene is probably not ideal, and most people agree. But raiding is just one small facet of the game of EQ, especially since we're just talking about gods/dragons because anyone can still do fear/hate/sky/chardok/whatever, still "raiding." The raid scene being flawed doesn't warrant whining about how the server sucks, the staff doesn't care about anything, the staff is incompetent, TMO are evil, etc.

[Tecmos Deception]

Not said enough- Thanks guides/devs for volunteering your time to make this server a fun place!

^

[Aaron]

I'm always amazed at how mad and personally offended people get about a game. I'd like to meet these people in real life, to see what their day-to-day is like.

[skeletoria]

LOL.

That was a due response to someone who didn't deserve an acknowledgement in the first place.

I love you and appreciate your dedication. <3

[Stinkum]

Don't know what's going on here but Enslaved sounds WAY too immersed in Everquest and extremely butthurt.

Nobody is twisting your elbow forcing you to play here, kid. If you don't like it, go kick rocks.

[bubur]

This guy knows absolutely everything that is going on, from Indonesia.

a little racist are we? what does me playing from indo have anything to do with my opinion that the staff is not involved in RMT as a growing number of bandwagoners are blindly accepting?

typical staff-RMT-crier, already banned from the game, caught cheating says he "did it because other people do it and get away with it.. get unbanned etc.."

those people get unbanned because they intelligently and maturely dealt with the issue and led the staff to believe they wouldnt do it again. well some of them did do it again, and certainly have gotten banned / will be banned a second time. not only that its also harder to get unbanned now because the staff is losing trust in the playerbase. judging by the way you accuse those in charge of cheating themselves, you are not presenting yourself as intelligent or mature and will never see your old chars again

[bubur]

There is very little to no impetus for me to be polite, or subtle, or likeable, since I did all that with my other account and it was banned regardless.

misunderstood. thought you meant a game account

carry on ranting

[khanable]

they're 'volunteers.' they dont make any money from p99, despite what a lot of people claim about RMT

they have, however, accepted responsibility to adhere to a specific set of guidelines as to what being a volunteer 'guide' or 'gm' is able and suppose to do. if these guidelines are not followed, ie they fail to do their volunteer 'job', then they will be removed from the volunteer team, as has happened in the past to some of them

that being said, they do the best they can without making any money for the love of everquest and for the enjoyment of responsibility over the project itself.

they also have actual jobs. those are not related to p99

http://i.minus.com/izyuqbwYKNQEG.gif

[Strifer]

I would have a hard time buying they would be good at staff because of their personal connections (and distastes) for much of their peers. Staff requires a certain disconnection from all the bullshit drama that occurs in RNF. Even though a lot of it is just for fun, those perceptions will carry into staff, and we can't have it. Also, the perception that we don't take this seriously is a little funny. Why would I do something as a volunteer for 10+ hours a week that I don't take seriously?

Welp there goes my shot.

[Aaron]

Give it another year. I'd be absolutely shocked if you didn't have a little bit more to say about the totally non-responsive and ever-disappointing Staff after that.

I say what I say with 2.5 years of P99 experience. When you have also put that amount of effort into this server, to see years of favoritist policies and GM decisions consistently in favor of TMO, you may then criticize my approach.

I've beeen here longer than you. Can i criticize your ridiculous opinions?

[Uggme]

No, because I'm much smarter than you as evidenced by your typos and syntax errors.

This makes even less sense that usual, which is saying a lot.

[Droog007]

Sigh, you guys.

Do you say "sigh" in real life?

I do ... just curious.

[August]

This server is free to play on. It's their rules.

Honestly, staff COULD be corrupt and RMT and make profit and whatever the hell they want. Someone is paying for hosting. They are providing a service, which they don't charge for. If they profit, that's their business. The fact that the server is so popular that there is RMT going on is a testament to how desirable this server is to play on.

You have no skin in the game. You have invested time into something that was given to you for free. Nobody owes you anything. They could shut down tomorrow and you lose all your characters and plat and there's not a single thing you can do. You have no contract. You have nothing at stake beyond your own time that you willingly gave for your own enjoyment.

If they started charging a monthly fee, then you have a right to bitch and moan. Don't like the end game? then don't play the end game. Don't like the server? Don't play on the server. You have no obligations here. Staff also have no obligations - they are volunteers - not paid. They owe nothing to you.

Take Ephi here - he says he spends 10 hours a week on this project. He works as a technical consultant at a large international firm. I bet his time billed out is at least 150/hr if he works with external partners - if he's an internal bill it may be even more. But let's say he may only get half of that. That's 750/week he's putting into the server. That's 3k/month. That's 36k/yr. What are you putting in besides complaining on the forum?

Don't devalue time spent. Don't pretend like you're owed anything, because you're not.

[kank]

Well said.

[August]

what I got from all that August was "blah blah blah server gms are gods blah blah blah who cares if donation money pays for vechicles blah blah blah you are OWED NOTHING I TELL YOU , NOTHING blah blah /QQ"

You obviously have nothing intelligible or coherent to add to the discussion. If you'd like to add a counterpoint on why you are owed something, by all means please do go ahead.

Oh and FWIW - Volunteer Firefighters - at least where I'm from, do get paid a stipend per-call, usually about 100 dollars.

Source: my father was a volunteer firefighter.

[nilbog]

So does anyone on the P99 staff have a job? If they're not getting paid, then the answer is no. They're volunteers. The RnF trolls shouting about staff not doing their jobs are not only rude and ungrateful, they're also factually incorrect.

I have a real life job; IT Director of my company.

My 'job' for p99 is spending my free time how I see fit. When I started the project, my goal was to recreate classic everquest so that it may exist somewhere. That continues to be my goal.

It (classic eq) continues to be lost over time as archived pages and historical information vanish.

Visitors to this museum in progress may litter or complain about posted rules, but it doesn't change the objective.

[webrunner5]

I like pie. ;) Here we go again.

[Shocore]

If you don't like the way it's run, don't play.

Or make your own server. With blackjack! And hookers!

[Aeolwind]

I'm helping out cause it is fun and entertaining. I'd help just cause Nil asked and I probably wouldn't help if someone else asked. It is an involved process with some headache inducing elements, but none of it is work or a job.

If the level of pie provided is insufficient, you are welcome at any point to find a new source of pie, or develop your own source of pie. However, there won't be pie subsidies supplied by the staff or piecare provided to those that are without pie.

At any time, pie could cease to flow for various reasons. I'd be sad, but it is the nature of pie. Complaining about the amount or quality of pie while not examining the copious amounts of good pie already provided is short sighted and does a disservice to the consumers of pie.

[webrunner5]

I'm helping out cause it is fun and entertaining. I'd help just cause Nil asked and I probably wouldn't help if someone else asked. It is an involved process with some headache inducing elements, but none of it is work or a job.

If the level of pie provided is insufficient, you are welcome at any point to find a new source of pie, or develop your own source of pie. However, there won't be pie subsidies supplied by the staff or piecare provided to those that are without pie.

At any time, pie could cease to flow for various reasons. I'd be sad, but it is the nature of pie. Complaining about the amount or quality of pie while not examining the copious amounts of good pie already provided is short sighted and does a disservice to the consumers of pie.

Holy crap Aeolwind. That be some serious drugs u be using. Plz name your source so we can all write swell prose like that. Impressive. :D Best post of the day for sure. Would read again for sure.

[lecompte]

Not to be a... decent person (eww) but it is not cool to launch a general attack on all the admins of a server that you can play on for free, without paying anything... ever.

If you have a specific concern to redress about the server in general, perhaps a more constructive tone would work better. If you have a concern to redress about a specific admin, perhaps a PM to one of the big two is in order.

Perhaps this thread would be more appropriate in RnF.

[joppykid]

This thread bleeds with the sense of entitlement people feel these days. It's absolutely mind-blowing how people think they deserve something without contributing anything.

[joppykid]

joppy nobody cares what you think, that could be the whole problem. nobody gives a fuck. TMO gets what they want, doesn't get punished for all the cheating and exploitation, FE wants to get phat lewts too, people like the average joe blow casual player want their epics, but nah, TMO are a bunch of assholes who kill mobs just so other guilds can't, and sell the MQs from 350k-1.5millionpp. now that's what I call a solid group of players. rock on TMO slowly killing the server with your asshole ways.

Kewl story dude.

[Scior]

Well, all I can say is thank you to the admins and people who make this server what it is.

Maybe it is not 100% perfect, but neither were live servers when SoE/Verant were hosting them. Only difference 13 years ago is that we were paying for this and SoE/Verant was making a lot of money.

Now we don't have to pay a dime, and the people running the show don't make any profit.

So thank you guys for your work, and helping me to enjoy this game once again.

[Dirtnap]

I like how when anyone has any kind of complaint, or criticism of P99 someone has to jump in and kiss ass.

"That guy doesn't love you like I do! I love you for everything you have done to create this server! Please let me have your babies!"

Nobody is saying they don't appreciate the work done for this server to be accomplished, people just have valid criticisms from time to time.

STOP KISSING ASS

EDIT: Nilbog, I wish you would actually practice what you preach. You've said that the population of the server doesn't matter to you, and that the only thing that matters is being as classic as possible. Yet you have done things that specifically go against that.

[joppykid]

I like how when anyone has any kind of complaint, or criticism of P99 someone has to jump in and kiss ass.

"That guy doesn't love you like I do! I love you for everything you have done to create this server! Please let me have your babies!"

Nobody is saying they don't appreciate the work done for this server to be accomplished, people just have valid criticisms from time to time.

STOP KISSING ASS

Look at all those level 20's. Someone is an Altaholic!

[Dirtnap]

Look at all those level 20's. Someone is an Altaholic!

I can't stand playing on this server for more than a week at a time.

[August]

holy shit and Im the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, where's the proof?

Honestly what proof is required. The numbers I quoted are low-ball estimates for software development. You can command 75/hr after a couple years work as a freelancer pretty easily.

But yeah ok draw the argument away. Fact doesn't change that you are contributing nothing and are receiving a free game.

[Rogean]

holy shit and Im the CEO of a Fortune 500 company, where's the proof?

You're calling BS on a $150/hr bill-out? You obviously haven't spent any time in the corporate world.

I'm a network engineer, my time is either billed out somewhere between $150/hr to $250/hr, or more commonly in project labor 'blocks', which range anywhere from $1k to $20k, and can take anywhere from a couple of hours to several days. These labor blocks are built into big state contract bids for government education (typically new building contructions since state of Massachusetts refunds like 70% to the municipality). That $20k block gets built into a contract worth $500k-$1 mil and I spend 2 days, give or take, on my part.

(20,000 / (2*8)) = $1,250/hr

I basically have no job description. I'm expected to complete a given project regardless of the vendors involved, whether I've worked with them or not. I cover (not limited to): Firewalls (Cisco, Sonicwall), Switches (Cisco, Procurve, Extreme, Brocade, 3Com, etc), Servers/SAN (HP, Dell, EMC), and pretty much anything Software related (Active Directory, DHCP, DNS, VMWare, Antivirus Products, Backup Products, etc). That really is only a small list of the things I could be dealing with.

[August]

You are not immune from reproach just because it's free.

Rogean - Great
Nilbog - Great

Everyone else, needs to prove themselves because as server history has proven. Most of you are shit.

Edit: Excluding content devs who don't do any customer service related activities. You guys are A okay in my book as well. Because you can't fix the problems we're dealing with player-wise if you wanted to. It's out of your hands. The rest are just making up excuses to let shitbags be shitbags. Such as the, "that happened X amount of time ago lol" excuse.

I think they are definitely immune from the current reproach that is going on.

F R E E

You are not paying for a service. You are not involved in any contractual obligation. They owe no DUTY to you or anyone else.

If they are profiting off of the server, then yes, please do bitch. I'm not kissing up to rogean/nilbog/whoever here. I think the top end raid situation sucks. Do I think it could be better? yes! Do I wish they would fix it? yes! Do I think this is more of a problem about the mentality of the people that play this server rather than the enforcement of variance / FTE? yes!

You guys all have your minds made up on how it should be. Some people disagree. Luckily for the people who run this show, they don't have to listen to you because they don't owe you anything. If you leave this server, I doubt they would care.

[Scior]

I worked for a large IT company for 6 years as a Systems engineer, and the billing rate to our client (An oil company) was $130/hr for my time. Obviously I did not get paid that myself as the IT company took the bulk of it.

There is nothing uncommon about $150+ being the value of Rogean's or anyone else's time. And just because he may not get paid that much himself, does not diminish the value of his time and the value of the time he puts into the server.

Btw, Rogean, Nilbog, anyone else for that, I am currently seeking a Systems engineer/IT manager position in the Miami FL area if you guys know anybody. Just moved here a couple months ago from Southern Ohio for a change of life. Send me a PM if you do! Otherwise, thanks again for running the server!

And before anyone thinks that is dumb of me to ask. 8 years ago I met a guy in World of Warcraft. We got to know each other a bit in game from playing in the same guild. Turned out he was a VP of a security company outside of NYC and I was only about 30 minutes away from the location, he hired me to work for him!

[Alawen]

This thread took a fascinating turn with the inclusion of estimated hourly values for the development team. We're about 3 1/2 years into this experiment. I would estimate the sweat equity at somewhere around half a million dollars. That might sound like a lot, but honestly in business terms this project has been amazingly efficient in hourly productivity.

If I were senior management at Sony or Blizzard, I'd be looking into acquiring this development team.

[August]

This thread took a fascinating turn with the inclusion of estimated hourly values for the development team. We're about 3 1/2 years into this experiment. I would estimate the sweat equity at somewhere around half a million dollars. That might sound like a lot, but honestly in business terms this project has been amazingly efficient in hourly productivity.

If I were senior management at Sony or Blizzard, I'd be looking into acquiring this development team.

I think the biggest thing here is that when people put their hourly rate in here, they're actually working on the project the whole time. Whereas at work, I might put in 2 hours of real work on my 8 hour day :)

[Clark]

When you have qualified people who would take over their positions in a second, given the opportunity, and they are not fulfilling the obligations of their volunteer assignment, what else do you call it but not doing their jobs?

What would you think of a volunteer firefighter who didn't fight fires? I would say, "that man is not doing his job."

http://s12.postimg.org/gzqbqv1vx/willferrel2.jpg

you got a point there

[nilbog]

It is naive to assume you can appease tens of thousands of people better than anyone else. If you haven't tried it, you certainly should.

Closed.