Hybrid XP penalties

[TarukShmaruk]

Yes, it's classic.

It's also really dumb, and hurts people grouping with hybrids just as much as it penalizes hybrids themselves.

If there was any candidate for early release, wouldn't removing hybrid XP penalties be just that?

[khanable]

No. Hate revamp would be far more important.

[TarukShmaruk]

No. Hate revamp would be far more important.

:rolleyes:

I'm cereal guys - SoV is around the corner (relatively) and now the hybrid XP penalties are just bad for the game.

I don't play one, but it would be nice to be able to group with some from time to time without grumbling to myself about how badly they're gimping our XP gain.

[Samoht]

now the hybrid XP penalties are just bad for the game.

shit's classic

and you knew about it coming in, so...

[Faerie]

it would be nice to be able to group with some from time to time without grumbling to myself about how badly they're gimping our XP gain.

So group with them without grumbling. To grumble is always a choice :)

[kaev]

I am extremely grateful for this server and the opportunity it provides me to relive the old-school EQ experience that I fell in love with back in 1999. None of the things I disliked about pre-PoP EQ on live, nor the things that I dislike about p99 today, stop me from appreciating EQ then or p99 now. This server is grand, thanks to all who made it what it is!


I used to believe that EQ's various XP penalties (and the absurd "punish all those foolish enough to group with them!!!!!!!!!" implementation) were the ultimate poster-child for amazingly terrible dev choices marring an otherwise fantastic game. But...

Consider the amazing strategy of removing the opportunity to obtain some valuable non-transferable advantage like the Guise of the Deceiver or the option of binding yourself in the firepot room, but not removing the advantage(s) from the characters who have them, and then whining about players selling accounts. Wow. Just wow. It is very difficult to find words to describe the astonishing lack of awareness of common and easily predictable human behavior presented there:

"Hey guys, let's provide an overwhelming enticement for players to do something we don't want them to do but can't really prevent them from doing. And then let's get up on our high horse and bitch about it when they do it! Yeah!"

All faithfully reproduced here, including the hand-wringing and moralizing by the devs, :becauseitsclassic:.

[myriverse]

So group with them without grumbling. To grumble is always a choice :)
Yup. Only thing that should matter is whether the person in the group performs their role well.

[Rooj]

Hi Sideshow.

[TarukShmaruk]

It's not a complaint. It's just a suggestion to remove something dumb earlier than when Velious hits.

Not because it makes it harder for x class to do something but because it sucks for the game as a whole

[Swish]

SKs, still the best non-raid tank... learn to love them, your cleric does.

[Asap]

Lol @ that gif, Swish.

Who are we kiddin, hybrid penalties blow. I tried leveling up a Shadowknight and during the entire time playing them I imagined how long it's going to take getting through the hell levels. 54 and 59, no thanks.

[Cippofra]

Don't think the penalties are really that big of a deal. Didn't notice anything leveling an iksar monk vs a human monk. Besides, anyone who's going to bitch about someone with high penalties joining your group is most definitely not the kind of person that will be beneficial to your group in the first place.

[TarukShmaruk]

Don't think the penalties are really that big of a deal. Didn't notice anything leveling an iksar monk vs a human monk. Besides, anyone who's going to bitch about someone with high penalties joining your group is most definitely not the kind of person that will be beneficial to your group in the first place.

Rangers are already weak and the 40% xp penalty that hits the whole group sucks bad.

I am surprised there is so much resistance to the idea of putting in something that's coming anyway, but is really just held up by development in progress.

If Velious were done, we'd have it today, but it's not so we hold up a really great change that benefits everyone and the community?

[Cippofra]

Rangers are already weak and the 40% xp penalty that hits the whole group sucks bad.

I am surprised there is so much resistance to the idea of putting in something that's coming anyway, but is really just held up by development in progress.

If Velious were done, we'd have it today, but it's not so we hold up a really great change that benefits everyone and the community?

IMO it really does kind of make sense. In velious classes have better balance. Warriors dont need top of the server raid gear just to hold aggro. But until then, this was Verant's fix to some very unbalanced tanking at lower levels. As for rangers....well, fact is no one really cares.

Also just have to take into account the fact that warriors cant solo. Hybrids can all solo easy enough if they find the right zone.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

Yes, it's classic.

It's also really dumb, and hurts people grouping with hybrids just as much as it penalizes hybrids themselves.

If there was any candidate for early release, wouldn't removing hybrid XP penalties be just that?

What would really help would be exp bonus pots. +.5 increments. Make them so they stack, but with each new potion the effect gets halved. They could drop off of mobs created on the fly, by gm's ready to take your visa #.

Choice, that is all we demand. Just like in real life, the game should vary based on your ability to pay.

Also, res pets. You should be able to buy a pet that is summoned whrn you die and rezzes you.

Also, instanced dungeons.

[TarukShmaruk]

What would really help would be exp bonus pots. +.5 increments. Make them so they stack, but with each new potion the effect gets halved. They could drop off of mobs created on the fly, by gm's ready to take your visa #.

Choice, that is all we demand. Just like in real life, the game should vary based on your ability to pay.

Also, res pets. You should be able to buy a pet that is summoned whrn you die and rezzes you.

Also, instanced dungeons.

Yeah except the hybrid penalty is being removed when Velious hits so your snarky argument is irrelevant and contributes nothing to the discussion. It's not like I'm suggesting AAs or augments here.

[Ciroco]

Also just have to take into account the fact that warriors cant solo. Hybrids can all solo easy enough if they find the right zone.

When you figure out what zone it is that Rangers can solo easily in, let me know.

[webrunner5]

When you figure out what zone it is that Rangers can solo easily in, let me know.

Yeah, I want to know that one also. :D:D

[webrunner5]

[QUOTE=kaev;986974 Consider the amazing strategy of removing the opportunity to obtain some valuable non-transferable advantage like the Guise of the Deceiver or the option of binding yourself in the firepot room, but not removing the advantage(s) from the characters who have them, and then whining about players selling accounts. Wow. Just wow. It is very difficult to find words to describe the astonishing lack of awareness of common and easily predictable human behavior presented there:QUOTE]

Yeah, nobody seems to bitch about that being " Not Classic" that has them. This is a smart person. ;)

[SCB]

As one of the two rangers that was in Taruk's group, I feel that I can confirm that we weren't weak, and that the xp penalty wasn't a big deal.

The real problem was that he was a 15 in a group with 20s, imo.

[Buellen]

well now


war can to solo but with understanding you will have down time. Bind wound skill is your friend. IS IT THE FASTEST SOLO XP ? Hell no but it can be done just have to keep an open mind.

Ranger can solo in any outdoor zone even more so at 15 when he/she gets harmony. use your bows to soften your target up before you have to melee. you will use ton of arrows but you can do it. again keep open mind.


it is in most situation way way way better to group , but that is not always possible. while you wait lfg is it better to sit on you but doing nothing or kill a mob and sit down and med / get hp back ?

[TarukShmaruk]

As one of the two rangers that was in Taruk's group, I feel that I can confirm that we weren't weak, and that the xp penalty wasn't a big deal.

The real problem was that he was a 15 in a group with 20s, imo.

I really hope you didn't construe my post as anything to do with our group - Velious removed hybrid penalties for a reason, because they suck and hurt the individual as much as anyone they group with, and I think we should get that change put in now instead of waiting for Velious 'just cuz'

It seems I'm outvoted in this regard so we'll just have to wait.

(that said, if you think that extra 40% for each hybrid in the group doesn't add up to some shitty penalties for the rest of the group I think you are mistaken)

[Luchino]

isnt iksar monk exp penalty worse than bard/ranger/paladin? no one seems to complain about having iksar monks.

[Faerie]

At least ducking interrupts spellcasting on your server. If I were nilbog I'd nerf that for you guys if you kept this sort of thing up :P

[webrunner5]

isnt iksar monk exp penalty worse than bard/ranger/paladin? no one seems to complain about having iksar monks.

Its worse. 44%. :eek: How soon people forget. :D

[koros]

Been soloing KC on my ranger since 51, dunno where everyone gets these weird misconceptions from.

[utenan]

I really hope you didn't construe my post as anything to do with our group - Velious removed hybrid penalties for a reason, because they suck and hurt the individual as much as anyone they group with, and I think we should get that change put in now instead of waiting for Velious 'just cuz'

It seems I'm outvoted in this regard so we'll just have to wait.

(that said, if you think that extra 40% for each hybrid in the group doesn't add up to some shitty penalties for the rest of the group I think you are mistaken)

Grouping with a hybrid doesn't mean everyone gets a rediculous xp nerf, http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=24405 It just depends on everyone's total xp if I'm not mistaken, being with someone higher level than you can be more detrimental to Xp than a hybrid.

[porigromus]

shit's classic

and you knew about it coming in, so...

What's your point? They aren't making this a completley classic experience. Varience is added not because of classic, rather to improve what they see is an issue. That opens the door to add whatever they feel improves classic. There is no difference. If they wanted pure classic, varience wouldn't be in.

[Vondra]

I'd be fine with them being gone just because in this case, I don't think they add anything to the game only subtract from it.

Just like I don't want the classic experience of having the boat disappear when I zone and appearing in the middle of the ocean 20% of the time while taking the boat to Butcherblock.

[webrunner5]

Just like I don't want the classic experience of having the boat disappear when I zone and appearing in the middle of the ocean 20% of the time while taking the boat to Butcherblock.


I'll give the Devs credit. At least the boats sort of work most of the time. A hell of a lot better than Sony did on live in the beginning. :eek:

[Rooj]

I dunno why people obsess over this, it's really not that big of a deal lol. Characters with EXP penalties just simply take a bit longer to level... And people should really stop telling others that the penalties affect the entire group or anyone else other than the character with the penalty. It shouldn't even be called a penalty, because that sounds like something is being taken away.

[Faerie]

And people should really stop telling others that the penalties affect the entire group or anyone else other than the character with the penalty.

It does affect the entire group, but not in a huge way. People should just get over it regardless.

[Swish]

It does affect the entire group, but not in a huge way. People should just get over it regardless.

[Vondra]

Only time it's really a problem is with rangers.

With tanks people take SKs all the time, not so many paladins but they'll get groups too. Ditto monks and bards (bards usually out soloing though heh).

With rangers it's a problem because you're talking about a class that isn't really desirable for 6 person groups to begin with. THEN tack on the 40% penalty.

[Gadwen]

It does affect the entire group, but not in a huge way. People should just get over it regardless.

But i demand that my groups be penalty free. War, Rogue, Cleric, Shaman, Druid and uhh another druid. And then only if you are a penalty free race, so no ogres, trolls, iksars or barbs allowed. Int casters are also out, I don't want them sucking up that extra 10%.

[Beaniron]

But i demand that my groups be penalty free. War, Rogue, Cleric, Shaman, Druid and uhh another druid. And then only if you are a penalty free race, so no ogres, trolls, iksars or barbs allowed. Int casters are also out, I don't want them sucking up that extra 10%.

Make a group of 6 Troll SK's and hit up MM.

[Rooj]

Tanked on my Ranger just fine while leveling. Problem is the majority of Rangers aren't going to gear for or have a 2nd gear set for tanking.
Rangers make great pullers too, especially in outdoor zones (harmony). When I was the puller I would pull with root or snare if there were multiple mobs, by the time the 2nd mob gets to camp the first mob is dead. No need for a CC class, and if you have one it gives them the opportunity to DPS more (don't underestimate Enchanter nukes!). Honestly I think Ranger is just too dynamic for the average gamer to play.

[t0lkien]

I love the EQ Ranger. If I wasn't so in love with the Bard I'd play one. It's the only class I've ever alted.

[Beaniron]

I love the EQ Ranger. If I wasn't so in love with the Bard I'd play one. It's the only class I've ever alted.

The only thing that would make me play a Bard is if on top of Dual Wield, they had Double Attack and Kick. Then they'd be more balanced in the melee department.

[t0lkien]

The only thing that would make me play a Bard is if on top of Dual Wield, they had Double Attack and Kick. Then they'd be more balanced in the melee department.

But Bards aren't meant to be melee heavy, that's the point of them. They are the RPG class equivalent of McGuyver.

[Beaniron]

But Bards aren't meant to be melee heavy, that's the point of them. They are the RPG class equivalent of McGuyver.

They're hybrids. Rangers are also hybrids, yet they get dual wield, double attack, and kick. Bards also had quad attack in EQ:OA for the PS2. Pallies and SK's are hybrids yet they get Double Attack and Bash. So why does the Bard get the shaft in melee being a Hybrid?

[t0lkien]

They're hybrids. Rangers are also hybrids, yet they get dual wield, double attack, and kick. Bards also had quad attack in EQ:OA for the PS2. Pallies and SK's are hybrids yet they get Double Attack and Bash. So why does the Bard get the shaft in melee being a Hybrid?

Balance? They can cast while moving, while simultaneously being the fastest moving class in the game. Those two things combined make them super powerful at times. I think Bards do alright, both leveling and in the endgame, if they are played with knowledge and some skill. That's good design to me.

To be honest, I think the EQ Bard is the best implementation of the class in any game ever made. It's the right balance of vulnerable, powerful, and requiring real effort to play well.

[Rooj]

Kinda wish Ranger had gotten plate and Bard had gotten chain. Oh well.

[t0lkien]

Kinda wish Ranger had gotten plate and Bard had gotten chain. Oh well.

Rangers were restricted to chain because of the legacy of the class in D&D and the class's reference - Lord of the Rings. I think it's critically important to maintain that sort of dynamic, as it maintains the role, and the fantasy of it. Modern RPG systems have crapped all over such distinctions and feel homogenized and featureless as a result IMO. Genuine class distinction is a tent pole of good RPGing.

I know there have been lots of skill-only systems, and others where you could basically design your own classes, but they were that much less compelling as a result - to me and my friends anyway. It might have looked good on paper and in concept, but it played out badly. When everyone can do everything you end up without any clear gameplay, and no reason to keep playing, and no reason to cooperate. EQ was designed to force you to group, and that is awesome in so many ways.

It's ironic how all these highly complex, big number systems end up creating build templates that everyone gravitates towards anyway. That to me is the proof positive that it's a mistake.

TL;DR Rangers got chain, but got the most elegant and elegantly useful implementation of the track ability in any game I've seen, and the ability to pwn from a distance, meaning that if they decide to go toe to toe they have to weigh the risk. Great class design (again, IMO).

[Rooj]

Ranger doesn't pwn from a distance until Luclin, unfortunately.

[Faerie]

They're hybrids. Rangers are also hybrids, yet they get dual wield, double attack, and kick. Bards also had quad attack in EQ:OA for the PS2. Pallies and SK's are hybrids yet they get Double Attack and Bash. So why does the Bard get the shaft in melee being a Hybrid?

Huge self-haste, and slow/mez, for a few reasons. But yeah, if they gave bards double attack on top of everything they already have, no one would have ever been anything but bard.

Defensive melee/caster hybrid:
SK
Paladin

Offensive melee/caster hybrid:
Ranger

Utility caster/melee hybrid:
Bard
Shaman

[lecompte]

Couple of Notes:
1) 70% of the fun in EQ happens GETTING to level 60 so if you have a group that is a lot of fun, who cares about the penalty?
2) I wear plate.
3) Racial penalties are not shared.
4) Rangers can old agro, and if you have enough slow/dps, it don't matter if you tank worse than a chanter w/o rune 5. (group last night with two backstabbing chanter pets can attest to this)


As a ranger, who has brought the 40% penalty to every group I've been in, I've enjoyed leveling. That exhaltation you get from completing a level? Imagine a level that is 40% harder and thus, 40% more exciting when you finally do it and that is just by the numbers -- disregarding the fact that it is 40% more challenging to get a group.

[Vondra]

Couple of Notes:
1) 70% of the fun in EQ happens GETTING to level 60 so if you have a group that is a lot of fun, who cares about the penalty?
2) I wear plate.
3) Racial penalties are not shared.
4) Rangers can old agro, and if you have enough slow/dps, it don't matter if you tank worse than a chanter w/o rune 5. (group last night with two backstabbing chanter pets can attest to this)


As a ranger, who has brought the 40% penalty to every group I've been in, I've enjoyed leveling. That exhaltation you get from completing a level? Imagine a level that is 40% harder and thus, 40% more exciting when you finally do it and that is just by the numbers -- disregarding the fact that it is 40% more challenging to get a group.


All the exp penalties are shared, both class and racial, because the penalty is inherent to the total onhand exp the player has.

The penalty itself is just how much exp it takes you to level. The "penalty" isn't what's actually figured in the group, it's the total exp the person has. A freshly dinged lev 50 ranger has 140% of the exp of a freshly dinged lev 50 human cleric. That's what the calculation is looking at when determining how much exp each person gets. Not what level they are, not what race/class they are, but how much total exp they have.

If one person has 140000 exp and the other person has 100000 exp, then they group together, the person with 140000 exp is going to get about 58% of the exp the mob has to give (140000 + 100000 = 240000, 140000/240000 = ~.583). Then the remaining ~42% to the other guy. Whether that happened because the 140000 xp guy is a few levels higher, or is a bard, ranger etc, or any combination of things resulting in one person having more total exp on hand...the game doesn't look at.

If it was a troll SK, then we'd be looking at the same deal. The troll part would still be "shared", since it contributed to them having a longer exp bar. In the troll SK case, the freshly dinged lev 50 troll sk has 168% of the exp onhand that the freshly dinged 50 human cleric does. Calculation changes accordingly, concept remains the same.

[lecompte]

Mmm... I have a guild that disagrees on the racial penalties front. Would someone with some credentials care to respond? And my understanding of it is that I have the same amount of exp it just gets slashed before it is applied to my bar... that is why a 60 war and a 60 rang lose the same % when they die.

[Beaniron]

Huge self-haste, and slow/mez, for a few reasons. But yeah, if they gave bards double attack on top of everything they already have, no one would have ever been anything but bard.

Defensive melee/caster hybrid:
SK
Paladin

Offensive melee/caster hybrid:
Ranger

Utility caster/melee hybrid:
Bard
Shaman

I suppose, but is it too much to ask for an attack skill like Kick?

I know it's a bad comparison, but look at what Bards were capable of in Everquest: Online adventures. They could dual wield AND they had Quad Attack (4 swings at level 35). Rangers, Warriors, Rogues, and Monks also had this (AFAIK there were no Beastlords in OA), but Paladins and SK's had Double Attack only (which is why most used 2h swords). But Bards were not only great utility in OA, but they were capable of some INCREDIBLE melee DPS thanks to quad, all their songs, and their epic rapiers.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

They're hybrids. Rangers are also hybrids, yet they get dual wield, double attack, and kick. Bards also had quad attack in EQ:OA for the PS2. Pallies and SK's are hybrids yet they get Double Attack and Bash. So why does the Bard get the shaft in melee being a Hybrid?

bards get significant cc ability. You want the balls with that shaft?

[Vondra]

Mmm... I have a guild that disagrees on the racial penalties front. Would someone with some credentials care to respond? And my understanding of it is that I have the same amount of exp it just gets slashed before it is applied to my bar... that is why a 60 war and a 60 rang lose the same % when they die.

It's unfortunate that they disagree. What I posted is exactly how it works.

http://wiki.project1999.org/Game_Mechanics#Race.2FClass_Experience_Penalties

You can scroll down to "how experience works" for another person giving the same perspective regarding exp shared in a group.

Regarding the length of your personal exp bar, you can see the formula at the top of what was linked which is accurate. Total XP to complete a level = L^3 * C * R * H (which is defined in greater detail in the game mechanics post)

Nothing is ever cut from your bar. When you kill something alone, you get the same exp someone else your level would get killing that mob alone. Your exp bar is just longer.


If you are willing to put in a little time searching through older posts via search function, you'll find this topic has come up periodically over time, with experienced players coming to the same conclusions.

[lecompte]

If it was a troll SK, then we'd be looking at the same deal. The troll part would still be "shared", since it contributed to them having a longer exp bar. In the troll SK case, the freshly dinged lev 50 troll sk has 168% of the exp onhand that the freshly dinged 50 human cleric does. Calculation changes accordingly, concept remains the same.

You added substantially to your post after I replied so I'm going to address this part here.

I think the racial part of the penalty plays in to the XP bar (the troll warrior has 20% (http://wiki.project1999.org/Game_Mechanics#Race.2FClass_Experience_Penalties) more exp in his bar than the human warrior, and thus it isn't shared with group) while the xp BONUS is shared with group, because that is applied to the xp before it is distributed to the group/player. Likewise, the troll sks personal penalty will be perceived as follows: If there is a total of 70% exp penalty in the group, (SK, Monk, Chanter) then the xp from each mob will be slashed by 70 percent before it is applied to each party member, then the racial experience bonus/penalty will be applied.

[lecompte]

Okay Vondra, I think we are in for agree to disagree time now. I'm pretty sure my analogy is flawed in some way, and I know yours is so we should let it lie :).


EDIT:
Pleas note that my guild leaders say racial penalties aren't shared so to have any other stance is certain death and I will stand by it to end!

[Vondra]

You added substantially to your post after I replied so I'm going to address this part here.

I think the racial part of the penalty plays in to the XP bar (the troll warrior has 20% (http://wiki.project1999.org/Game_Mechanics#Race.2FClass_Experience_Penalties) more exp in his bar than the human warrior, and thus it isn't shared with group) while the xp BONUS is shared with group, because that is applied to the xp before it is distributed to the group/player. Likewise, the troll sks personal penalty will be perceived as follows: If there is a total of 70% exp penalty in the group, (SK, Monk, Chanter) then the xp from each mob will be slashed by 70 percent before it is applied to each party member, then the racial experience bonus/penalty will be applied.

The troll warrior having 20% more exp in his bar affects the group since having 20% more exp means he will take a larger portion of the groups exp because of it, since the total exp onhand is all that is consulted.

The exp calculation doesn't take into account any of the penalties. You're making the mistake of adding up 40, 20, and 10 from sk monk chanter, the exp calculation when handing out exp never takes those things into consideration. It doesn't make any calculation regarding a 70% total penalty, or any penalty at all.

It just looks at the total exp onhand of each character and hands out exp in accordance with it.


It sees the sk with 140000 exp, the human monk with 120000 exp, and the chanter with 110000 exp.

140000 + 120000 + 110000 = 370000

It gives the SK 140000/370000 = ~.378 or 37.8% of the exp.

The monk gets 120000/370000 = ~.324 or 32.4% of the exp.

Then the chanter gets the rest.

If the human monk was instead say...an iksar shaman (which has a 20% racial penalty, but no class penalty) the result would be the same as a human monk. They'd have 20% more exp on hand than the human cleric of same level. Same calculation, 120000 exp total for them, same 32.4% of the exp for them in this group if they replaced the human monk.

[xCry0x]

2) I wear plate.


If you want to break it down based on how the armor visually looks then yea it looks like plate just like rogue & shaman armor looks like plate.

When you look at it from an armor standpoint there is a break down where:

Warrior bp: 35 ac
SK/Pal BP: 30 ac
Cleric BP : 28 ac
Rogue, Shaman, Ranger: 26 ac

All the exp penalties are shared, both class and racial, because the penalty is inherent to the total onhand exp the player has.



I am interested in the exp penalty breakdown though because what you are saying is that a racial/class penalty is the same sort of penalty you get from grouping with a higher level player.

I was under the impression the details were more complex than just saying, hey this guy has more total exp so he is higher level/has a penalty whatever therefor the other people get less.

[lecompte]

When you look at it from an armor standpoint there is a break down where:

Warrior bp: 35 ac
SK/Pal BP: 30 ac
Cleric BP : 28 ac
Rogue, Shaman, Ranger: 26 ac



35 AC on tolan's BP I think.

[xCry0x]

140000 + 120000 + 110000 = 370000

It gives the SK 140000/370000 = ~.378 or 37.8% of the exp.

The monk gets 120000/370000 = ~.324 or 32.4% of the exp.

Then the chanter gets the rest.



Ah that makes a ton of sense. Didn't understand that your exp cut was essentially derived from your perceived level based on total exp.

Remind me never to group with a Troll SK that is also higher level than me =P

[Vondra]

If you want to break it down based on how the armor visually looks then yea it looks like plate just like rogue & shaman armor looks like plate.

When you look at it from an armor standpoint there is a break down where:

Warrior bp: 35 ac
SK/Pal BP: 30 ac
Cleric BP : 28 ac
Rogue, Shaman, Ranger: 26 ac



I am interested in the exp penalty breakdown though because what you are saying is that a racial/class penalty is the same sort of penalty you get from grouping with a higher level player.

I was under the impression the details were more complex than just saying, hey this guy has more total exp so he is higher level/has a penalty whatever therefor the other people get less.

That's correct, the penalty is the same.

Only total exp is consulted. Grouping with a level 50 iksar monk (44% penalty) is roughly the same as grouping with a lev 53 human cleric (0% exp penalty), at least as far as who gets how much of the groups exp is concerned.

The fresh dinged lev 50 monk would have 175 mill (base if no penalty) * 1.2 (iksar) * 1.2 (monk) = 252 million exp

The freshly dinged lev 53 human cleric would have roughly 253 million exp. (253m is the base exp for lev 53 without penalties)

[xCry0x]

35 AC on tolan's BP I think.

Was talking planar not kunark.

Kunark is
45 for war
40 for pal/sk/cleric
35 shaman/rogue/ranger

[lecompte]

Okay, effectually the same but Tunare damn it, it looks like plate.

[xCry0x]

Lol, it is one of these things where I wish I could have been a fly on the wall of the product meeting where the original EQ dev's were like.

"Dude, paladins, sk and ranger going to be so OP!"

"Yea man, a paladin is like a cleric + a warrior! All running around and tanking and healing, the group wont even NEED a cleric."

"Oh man, you are right, the SK will be like pew pew fear, dots, pet, life tap, smack with my big sword AND TANK!"

"Yea yea yea, and ranger will be like, dual wield doing all this damage + nukes & dots and can buff!"

"Man these guys are going to be SO op, we better put an exp penalty on them so the server isn't full of paladin, sk & rangers"

.
.
.
.

2 Years later

"Woops, better get rid of that penalty so people actually play pal, sk and rangers"

.
.
.
Another few years later
.
.
.
"Wow we better add some useful aa's and discs so people actually play pal, sk and rangers"

"Yea, at least we got bards right?"

"Yea, 1 for 4 isnt bad"

"Nope, we are awesome."

[Vondra]

Lol, it is one of these things where I wish I could have been a fly on the wall of the product meeting where the original EQ dev's were like.

"Dude, paladins, sk and ranger going to be so OP!"

"Yea man, a paladin is like a cleric + a warrior! All running around and tanking and healing, the group wont even NEED a cleric."

"Oh man, you are right, the SK will be like pew pew fear, dots, pet, life tap, smack with my big sword AND TANK!"

"Yea yea yea, and ranger will be like, dual wield doing all this damage + nukes & dots and can buff!"

"Man these guys are going to be SO op, we better put an exp penalty on them so the server isn't full of paladin, sk & rangers"

.
.
.
.

2 Years later

"Woops, better get rid of that penalty so people actually play pal, sk and rangers"

.
.
.
Another few years later
.
.
.
"Wow we better add some useful aa's and discs so people actually play pal, sk and rangers"

"Yea, at least we got bards right?"

"Yea, 1 for 4 isnt bad"

"Nope, we are awesome."

The funniest one to me has always been the halfling exp bonus.

It's rumored that the halfling exp bonus was actually intended for humans, but they goofed up. I hope so.

Better than considering the alternatives.

Dev 1: "You can be a human with no benefit....or you can be a halfling and get hide, sneak, and level faster"

Dev 2: "Okay. Wait...what's the point of being a human then?"

Dev 1: "Well, your helmet looks like a bucket."

Dev 2: "Sold. I'm compiling it now."

[xCry0x]

The funniest one to me has always been the halfling exp bonus.

It's rumored that the halfling exp bonus was actually intended for humans, but they goofed up. I hope so.

Better than considering the alternatives.

Dev 1: "You can be a human with no benefit....or you can be a halfling and get hide, sneak, and level faster"

Dev 2: "Okay. Wait...what's the point of being a human then?"

Dev 1: "Well, your helmet looks like a bucket."

Dev 2: "Sold. I'm compiling it now."

Lol, I had not heard that but it makes a lot of sense.

I love when the wiki says "Well the human is well balanced"

Awesome, ill gear myself with a necklace of superiority in every slot and be itemized to maximize my racial benefit!

[TarukShmaruk]

Back on topic..

Hybrid XP penalties are being removed with velious.

Should we wait until Velious, or get them removed early while Velious is still in development?

If you are looking at it from a pure timeline standpoint, Kunark has been out longer than it took Velious to come out.

[August]

Lol, it is one of these things where I wish I could have been a fly on the wall of the product meeting where the original EQ dev's were like.

"Dude, paladins, sk and ranger going to be so OP!"

"Yea man, a paladin is like a cleric + a warrior! All running around and tanking and healing, the group wont even NEED a cleric."

"Oh man, you are right, the SK will be like pew pew fear, dots, pet, life tap, smack with my big sword AND TANK!"

"Yea yea yea, and ranger will be like, dual wield doing all this damage + nukes & dots and can buff!"

"Man these guys are going to be SO op, we better put an exp penalty on them so the server isn't full of paladin, sk & rangers"

.
.
.
.

2 Years later

"Woops, better get rid of that penalty so people actually play pal, sk and rangers"

.
.
.
Another few years later
.
.
.
"Wow we better add some useful aa's and discs so people actually play pal, sk and rangers"

"Yea, at least we got bards right?"

"Yea, 1 for 4 isnt bad"

"Nope, we are awesome."

If my memory serves me correctly, the EVerquest lore was actually heavily influenced by DnD games that they had going on.

In that sense, the 'hybrid exp penalty' actually make a ton of sense. In DND, you can only level up 'one' of your classes at a time. You could be a level 10 cleric and level 10 warrior - and be level 20- but only 10 of each class.

I believe the logic was that you got to be represented properly @ your level, but you weren't actually HALf as powerful as each respective class, but more so. So, they added in a penalty to require you to get more 'experience' to level up both of your classes respectively.

What they failed to realize was how this translated into the MMO genre and character power. Usually in DND you took a class to unlock special abilities or spells that were utility related - turn undead, for example. Nobody was going around (at least in my group) leveling up their classes equally. So you ended up with gimp classes.

The appropriate analog to DnD would have been to eliminate the SK and PAL class altogether, and then let the warrior, upon reaching 60, 'specialize' into a class and receive LoH+Stuns+Turn Undead, DT+lifetap+summon pet, or pure-melee abilities (think Berserker in DnD) that gives raw power or stamina of the sort.

[Splorf22]

FWIW, I think in true classic EQ hybrids deserver their penalties. In Kunark Warriors get outrageous improvements (huge skill increases relative to hybrids, triple attack, more HP, fantastic disciplines) and suddenly the XP penalty becomes silly.

Anyway I chalk this stuff up to the slow progression. For example, on live the Donals BP of outrageously overpoweredness was good for maybe a few months. Here it's been out for years. Mage Epic pets are well balanced for Velious but tear up Kunark; we're stuck in late Kunark for 18 months now. Iksars don't get any planar armor. etc etc.

[kaev]

FWIW, I think in true classic EQ hybrids deserver their penalties. In Kunark Warriors get outrageous improvements (huge skill increases relative to hybrids, triple attack, more HP, fantastic disciplines) and suddenly the XP penalty becomes silly.

Anyway I chalk this stuff up to the slow progression. For example, on live the Donals BP of outrageously overpoweredness was good for maybe a few months. Here it's been out for years. Mage Epic pets are well balanced for Velious but tear up Kunark; we're stuck in late Kunark for 18 months now. Iksars don't get any planar armor. etc etc.

Really? fatty SKs deserved to not have enough mana (due to double penalty + low stats) to cast their L1 Necro pet when they first got spells at L9? and the XP penalty is just pants-on-head retarded.

[Faerie]

Really? fatty SKs deserved to not have enough mana (due to double penalty + low stats) to cast their L1 Necro pet when they first got spells at L9?

Lol, of course they do. I always loved this :P

Trolls are not very smart, and it's great that troll SKs were penalized in this way. Adds some RP to the mix. And really, with their ridiculous melee stats, there's no reason for them to complain about low mana.

[kaev]

Ah, so your theory is that players should not, you know, be allowed to enjoy playing the game. Got it, and thanks for the clarification.

[Ciroco]

Look, it sucks and it doesn't make sense, but nothing is going to be done about it, so let's just try to ignore it til Velious.

[Rooj]

lol. The "penalty" is explained in the thread and people still don't understand it.

[t0lkien]

lol. The "penalty" is explained in the thread and people still don't understand it.

It does seem strange that people come to p99 to play Classic EQ and then complain about the rules...

[kaev]

It does seem strange that people come to p99 to play Classic EQ and then complain about the rules...

Why? The complaints are surely part of the "classic" experience. Your complaint here, otoh, is strictly an anachronism in the context of the server's claimed goals. :notclassic:

[Swish]

The difference here (as with many other things) is that the players are more knowledgable this time around...so people are more aware that a troll SK is a 68% penalty, and decide they want nothing to do with him.

Personally I'll take anyone in, but I've been in groups lately that discriminate heavily against any hybrids and won't listen to reason :p

[Rooj]

There. Is. No. Penalty.

[Faerie]

Ah, so your theory is that players should not, you know, be allowed to enjoy playing the game. Got it, and thanks for the clarification.

That's right, yes. EverQuest isn't even really a game, so much as it is a sacrifice that a person makes to the Gaming Gods. Anyone that isn't dedicated to the game enough to suffer for the greater good is free to sub to WoW, where you're rewarded for your participation (lol).

The rest of us will be here in EQ, where we pray for the day that we are nerfed; that we might painfully CR and weep ourselves to sleep knowing that we are destined to give more of our hard earned xp to a faceless entity only to have our spirits crushed again and again. They demand so little of us, and if you are so selfish as to deny them their bloodright, don't be surprised when your close friends and family forsake you to the dark pits of "lulz you're such a bitch about things, grow up this isn't WoW".

Some people are destined to be heroes; and the rest make a big deal about complaining when they don't make it into the Winner's Circle. Who will you be? You decide now, and the stigma remains with you until we've all gone senile.

[TarukShmaruk]

There. Is. No. Penalty.

/rolleyes

Again I reiterate...they are removing the penalty in velious.

Velious is going to come out but is held up by development. Given that we already have non-classic shit like outdoor LoS issues I don't think its a huge deal to get the hybrid XP penalty removed early.

I would express my frustration at the sheer amount of obtuse trolling in this thread but I realize it's summer now and school is out.

[webrunner5]

That's right, yes. EverQuest isn't even really a game, so much as it is a sacrifice that a person makes to the Gaming Gods. Anyone that isn't dedicated to the game enough to suffer for the greater good is free to sub to WoW, where you're rewarded for your participation (lol).

The rest of us will be here in EQ, where we pray for the day that we are nerfed; that we might painfully CR and weep ourselves to sleep knowing that we are destined to give more of our hard earned xp to a faceless entity only to have our spirits crushed again and again. They demand so little of us, and if you are so selfish as to deny them their bloodright, don't be surprised when your close friends and family forsake you to the dark pits of "lulz you're such a bitch about things, grow up this isn't WoW".

Some people are destined to be heroes; and the rest make a big deal about complaining when they don't make it into the Winner's Circle. Who will you be? You decide now, and the stigma remains with you until we've all gone senile.

Faerie. Either you need some drugs, or you are taking way too many. Can't tell. :confused::confused:

[Scoresby]

/rolleyes

Again I reiterate...they are removing the penalty in velious.

Velious is going to come out but is held up by development. Given that we already have non-classic shit like outdoor LoS issues I don't think its a huge deal to get the hybrid XP penalty removed early.

I would express my frustration at the sheer amount of obtuse trolling in this thread but I realize it's summer now and school is out.

I think the best argument to be made is that, by absolute timescales, this should already have been released. It then becomes a question of whether you partially release velious changes early (before zones are completed) and if you do how to balance development time vs. impact. Personally, seeing as the exp. penalties did not exist this long in classic and are a pretty clearcut detriment to the playerbase and doubtfully require much effort to implement the argument does seem reasonable.

[t0lkien]

Isn't timescale irrelevant though? Velious isn't ready, and the penalty changes were not released till Velious, so doing so beforehand is not logical. If Velious takes longer to arrive, then so should all the bits that went along with it, surely.

Not that it matters to me. The penalties don't bother me at all. I'm here for the fun and nostalgia, not to powerlevel my way to 60 ASAP and then poopsock all the spawns.

[Splorf22]

Kaev, at L50 an Ogre Shadowknight with a Bladestopper is going to have more HP, more AC, more aggro, and way more utility than a L50 Ogre warrior with two Yaks (especially if said SK has Lustrous Russet). Even Rangers are pretty solid at 50 with that 5/14 whip (remember that 6/13 monk fist that drops off of Vulak?). What fucks the hybrids over in Kunark is getting a bunch of moderately useful spells with huge casting times instead of evasive/defensive discipline and better skillcaps. If Shadowknights had 250 defense and 250 offense and even a mediocre version of defensive there would be no reason to play a warrior.

Classic: Verant designed hybrids to be a bit better and they deserved their penalty
Kunark: Verant decided to balance the classes a bit and suddenly the hybrids were equal or slightly worse
Velious: Verant belatedly remembered to remove the XP penalty

[kaev]

:shrug:

XP penalty is terrible terrible game design. Players who want to will all reach the level cap. Pre-Kunark Warrior at level cap is just inferior to SK/Paladin/Ranger at level cap, no amount of punishing the hybrid player and his/her groupmates changes that even slightly. It's just shit. The same is quite obviously true for the Warrior's XP bonus, it doesn't help, the classic 50 Warrior is an inferior class and getting to cap quicker (along with your groupmates) in no way repairs or mitigates that fault.

There is no deserving or not deserving, it's just terrible. Making the game unfun, that is to say, arranging that large numbers of other players refusing to group with you regardless of all else because your class is inferior or you will penalize the group's xp gain is shit design. Hard to think of anything worse in game design than making the game unfun to play.

Also, it's fun to note that the shit design decisions continued unabated. In mid-Velious, by the time the XP penalty was removed, ALL of the tanks had become undesirable for XP grouping due to how ridiculously OP monks were.

What makes this game fun is playing with friends and making new friends. What makes it unfun are the various shitty design choices left in place for years at a time that interfere with opportunities for making new friends in-game.

[xCry0x]

XP penalty is terrible terrible game design.

Having the exp penalty + a group experience calculation where % of kill exp is distributed based on the % of total exp your character represents to the sum of accumlated exp across all other members is a terrible game design.

Making a hybrid level slower isn't a bad design if they are deemed to be stronger than non hybrids... but making non hybrids suffer for grouping with them is.

I mean, a 40% penalty on bards is irrelevant when they swarm kite to 60 anyways.. imagine if bards DIDN'T have a penalty? lol.

[fadetree]

Having the exp penalty + a group experience calculation where % of kill exp is distributed based on the % of total exp your character represents to the sum of accumlated exp across all other members is a terrible game design.

Making a hybrid level slower isn't a bad design if they are deemed to be stronger than non hybrids... but making non hybrids suffer for grouping with them is.

I mean, a 40% penalty on bards is irrelevant when they swarm kite to 60 anyways.. imagine if bards DIDN'T have a penalty? lol.


Yes, this is the real problem. The exp penalty may sort of make sense on the hybrid player, but applying it to the whole group is just retarded, or evil, or possibly both. I suspect they thought the math would be too hard or something if they had to calc for each player separately.

[Ele]

Yes, this is the real problem. The exp penalty may sort of make sense on the hybrid player, but applying it to the whole group is just retarded, or evil, or possibly both. I suspect they thought the math would be too hard or something if they had to calc for each player separately.

One of the reasons I've heard for the group sharing the penalty is that they didn't want friends playing non-penalty classes outpacing their penalty class playing friends.

[Rooj]

The funny thing is there are so many more things that affect your EXP way more. Adding party members for example. Just because you CAN have a full group of 6 players, doesn't mean you should. Many times I've gotten my best EXP when duo/trio/quatro. I hate when I am in a low man group and we're doing fine, and the leader invites more people. Ya know what kills your EXP more than anything else possibly can? Not having enough mobs to kill.. having to wait on repops. Group composition, (I hate seeing a bard+enc in a group, or even worse the dreaded CLR+SHM+ENC that everyone loves so dearly... If you have a SHM+ENC and you need a cleric too, yer doin somethin wrong) bad players, AFK players (looking at you Fahndango!), and finally, gear. All of these things destroy your EXP more than any non-existent EXP "penalty" (rofl).

[Atmas]

Well the problem is it would be kind of silly if two people played together and leveled every day and ended up after a while being level 40 and level 34 or something (numbers made up but you get the point about leveling discrepancy).

The real problem with the hybrid penalty is that if you are using it to balance power it is kind of meaningless when you get to max level. However, this methodology is reminiscent of the old pen and paper games that made it more difficult for players with greater potential to reach it.

[Danth]

Yes, this is the real problem. The exp penalty may sort of make sense on the hybrid player, but applying it to the whole group is just retarded, or evil, or possibly both. I suspect they thought the math would be too hard or something if they had to calc for each player separately.


When P1999 opened the hybrid penalties were broken and self-only. It sucked immensely. Duoing with the wife meant she leveled much more quickly than me and she either had to suicide down to keep even, or I had to spend a lot more time online than she did. The sharing is much preferable over that rubbish. Of course, the class penalties are stupid to begin with so not having them would be better still. They'll go away some months after Velious opens so the best we can do is hope for Velious.

-------------------------------

A slight correction: All else being equal, a level 50 Ogre Shadow Knight with a Bladestopper will not have more health than a level 50 Ogre Warrior. The SK would be close, but the Warrior would still have a little more. Warriors have 3 hit points more per level 1-50 (plus a better modifier from stamina) than SK/PAL do and a Bladestopper isn't worth 150 worn hit points to a level 50. The rune click effect can be ignored since the Warrior has access to that as well via whatever means he prefers. The Warrior will also have marginally higher mitigation due to his innate mitigation bonus. Despite these minor corrections I agree that at 50 a Paladin or SK is generally superior to a Warrior. I also agree that Kunark reverses that and the pure classes are stronger for the remainder of the classic era.

Danth

[Swish]

Well I'm in no rush for Velious as we all know, but it will cure this hybrid problem...and I'm sure there'll be 100s of little iksar SKs running around on launch night ;)

[fadetree]

I understand what you are saying about shared leveling rates, but I still don't buy it. Because of the specialty case of someone playing regular with a particular friend(s), they decide to across the board penalize everybody for having a hybrid in the group? That's kind of throwing the ranger out with the bathwater, if you'll pardon the expression.

I do agree it would be best that they not have hybrid penalties in the first place, but oh well. As you say, waiting for Velious.

[lecompte]

I knew what I was getting into when I chose a ranger and I chose to play it BECAUSE of the penalty in a lot of ways. I lament it sometimes when I can't get a group for hours at a time, but at the same time a truely challenging experience is a very good experience and I'm all for self imposed handicaps just to up the entertainment.

[t0lkien]

The real problem with the hybrid penalty is that if you are using it to balance power it is kind of meaningless when you get to max level. However, this methodology is reminiscent of the old pen and paper games that made it more difficult for players with greater potential to reach it.

This is where it comes from. I worked for a short time with one of the original designers, and he confirmed EQ was based on D&D. Actually, apparently it was completely D&D at first, but they couldn't work out licence details or something, so they rewrote code to make it "unique". I had always thought it was based on Rolemaster, just from the feel of the systems.

[screenmonkey]

If my memory serves me correctly, the EVerquest lore was actually heavily influenced by DnD games that they had going on.

In that sense, the 'hybrid exp penalty' actually make a ton of sense. In DND, you can only level up 'one' of your classes at a time. You could be a level 10 cleric and level 10 warrior - and be level 20- but only 10 of each class.

I believe the logic was that you got to be represented properly @ your level, but you weren't actually HALf as powerful as each respective class, but more so. So, they added in a penalty to require you to get more 'experience' to level up both of your classes respectively.

What they failed to realize was how this translated into the MMO genre and character power. Usually in DND you took a class to unlock special abilities or spells that were utility related - turn undead, for example. Nobody was going around (at least in my group) leveling up their classes equally. So you ended up with gimp classes.

The appropriate analog to DnD would have been to eliminate the SK and PAL class altogether, and then let the warrior, upon reaching 60, 'specialize' into a class and receive LoH+Stuns+Turn Undead, DT+lifetap+summon pet, or pure-melee abilities (think Berserker in DnD) that gives raw power or stamina of the sort.
No when EQ was released it was AD&D second edition, and multiclassing didn't work the way it does today. Lets say I'm a Elf Fighter/Mage and lets say you earned 1000xp for the session, well you now split the difference between the two classses so you are sitting at 500/500 XP. Now I don't have my books infront of me but, as a multiclass character if I'm remembering this correctly as you gain levels each class has different amounts of xp requirements so a character with 10k xp would be a level 3 fighter and a level 2 mage.

[Vondra]

From leveling an enchanter to 60, I can tell you that I greatly preferred SK tanks for exp groups over warrior tanks.

With warriors I had to goof around with extra spells to protect myself after I mez'd 3 mobs in sebilis or something and it was time to break one for the next focus target, root, mem blur, etc. With SKs, they just cast once on my mez for the break and I could stay seated.
In fact I could mez a mob, slow it while it was mez'd, then when the SK broke the mez it'd STILL go for the SK.

It was meaningful enough that I didn't like dealing with a charmed pet when the tank was a warrior.

[August]

No when EQ was released it was AD&D second edition, and multiclassing didn't work the way it does today. Lets say I'm a Elf Fighter/Mage and lets say you earned 1000xp for the session, well you now split the difference between the two classses so you are sitting at 500/500 XP. Now I don't have my books infront of me but, as a multiclass character if I'm remembering this correctly as you gain levels each class has different amounts of xp requirements so a character with 10k xp would be a level 3 fighter and a level 2 mage.

I didn't play til 3.5, but i would say this still fits the mold. Your experience is getting 'split' between two classes, with both lagging behind what you would be if you were a solo class.

[TarukShmaruk]

I had really hoped this discussion would be as simple as : should we get the hybrid penalties removed early, for the good of the game, since it's coming anyway -OR- wait until velious just 'cuz?

(I know that's a bit of a loaded question, but still)

[RevengeofGio]

Are all xp penalties removed in Velious? or just class ones?

[TarukShmaruk]

Just class ones.

[Droog007]

The Vision was never about having your cake and eating it too. Even if the cake sucked. The game is cruel and rewards are scant - this has been the key to success/longevity. Embrace it.