SOE Live

[fastboy21]

So, despite spending 20 minutes on the phone with a CS rep, they are not going to allow me to register for Fanfaire (errr...SOE Live) with my p99 character.

I think we should have our own table there.

Anybody else going? EQNext unveiling...

[Pringles]

Please tell me you arent serious.

[Treefall]

I'm expecting EQNext to be nothing like EQ.

A reliable source, SOE, says it's going to be completely different.

Don't expect it to be any thing other than another GPS, WoW clone.

[t0lkien]

If there was a way to get SOE to start taking EMU servers seriously enough to start trying to close them down, the OP may just have found it.

[Yuda]

If there was a way to get SOE to start taking EMU servers seriously enough to start trying to close them down, the OP may just have found it.

You're on fire lately ;)

[gotrocks]

Yeah dude that was not smart.

There are certain internal members of SOE who have stated they dont mind and even encourage the emu scene, but that doesn't mean their legal team wouldn't be obligated to shut us down if it got enough attention.

Please be more careful in the future.

[Hex]

HAHA, EQEmu has been around forever. If they haven't shut it down yet, they're not going to.

I personally can't wait for EQN. Well at least to see what they build. They have a ton of potential. If they can properly mix the old with some of the new, it'll do quite well. Oh well, if it fails, there's always Wildstar!!!!!

[Hitpoint]

EQ Next is going to be trash. Games like real EQ can't make money anymore, so there won't be anymore like it.

[t0lkien]

You're on fire lately ;)

It's the coffee!

[lawll]

EQ Next is going to be trash. Games like real EQ can't make money anymore, so there won't be anymore like it.

Maybe SoE already knew there is no way they can make money with a wow like game anymore. So why even bother to make a super linear game if your only gonna get 500k subs anyway. SO maybe just maybe they said fuck it and took a chance with something different because it's not like they can reinvent the wheel with another theme park anyway. Then again this is all speculation and it could very well be a wow clone for all we know.

[RevengeofGio]

HAHA, EQEmu has been around forever. If they haven't shut it down yet, they're not going to.

I personally can't wait for EQN. Well at least to see what they build. They have a ton of potential. If they can properly mix the old with some of the new, it'll do quite well. Oh well, if it fails, there's always Wildstar!!!!!


I wouldn't laugh.... we're not talking logic. One just has to say "The emu servers are potential customers that are playing our product for free. Those people could potentially play EQNext"... then they log onto these forums.... check out that we are indeed interested in EQNext...

You can argue that we're not modifying the executable.... but SOE can just *try* to bring it to court and the staff here would shut down.

[SamwiseRed]

im going to call to register with my r99 char as well.

[Thulack]

I wouldn't laugh.... we're not talking logic. One just has to say "The emu servers are potential customers that are playing our product for free. Those people could potentially play EQNext"... then they log onto these forums.... check out that we are indeed interested in EQNext...

You can argue that we're not modifying the executable.... but SOE can just *try* to bring it to court and the staff here would shut down.

All customers get to play Eq for free. from levels 1-80 a paid sub on EQ is not needed.

[Thulack]

EQ Next is going to be trash. Games like real EQ can't make money anymore, so there won't be anymore like it.

This is my feeling exactly.

[Raavak]

I think the future of gaming involves paying RL money for advantages in the game, ala Second Life, Entropia, etc. Hell even Farmville and those Facebook games follow that model. Do things like make it take 1 minute to respawn after death, but you can speed it up for $1. In game money and items bought with RL money. Etc. It can work if there are plenty of ways to spend in game money on, i.e. the old Shadowhaven casino, exp bonus potions, special items. Use the players greed against them. Subscription stuff is outdated. It might feel "dirty" to us old timers, but the next generation of players won't know they are being scammed.

[myriverse]

EQ Next is going to be trash. Games like real EQ can't make money anymore, so there won't be anymore like it.
If it were Real EQ they would call it Real EQ. It would be a horrible mistake for them to create a 15 year old game. Things like WOW is what sells, and that's what they should be aiming at... but better.

[Vaildez]

If it were Real EQ they would call it Real EQ. It would be a horrible mistake for them to create a 15 year old game. Things like WOW is what sells, and that's what they should be aiming at... but better.

WOW is on the heavy decline and people don't want more games like it. We have seen plenty of clones over the years that start with a high sub count then disappear.

[SirSmithington]

I think the subscription option isn't entirely dead, but it does appear that some sort of micro transactions are going into every game. In many ways it is not surprising as people like to have an advantage both in games and in life and spending money is a principal way of attaining such advantages. It can also be nice, depending on how it is designed, if you only spend money on what you deem valuable--whatever that may be--as opposed to simply paying for everything via a subscription.

Regarding EQnext/EQ classic comparisons, there are clearly many people that would pay for and play a more classic style MMO, but I can see why developers would rather pursue the greater population that wants something less time intensive, in order to get more revenue. A niche game has less revenue potential and development costs for MMOs can be huge.

[stormlord]

Sad FACT of the matter is, SOE can't do what emulators do. They're too far gone, like some old man that can't keep up with the younger guy. They just don't get it. They don't understand why we like p1999. Their idea of "classic" progression is some defiant gear and some experience potions and some bandaid quests and some corpse summoners and .... oops .... you're level 70. But you saw some "classic" content!

They just plain don't get it. They don't get it. It has been hopeless for years.

Look at what they're doing on EQ live. They're making the game into one super linear GRIND fest. Why the f*** would anyone grind 10,000 aa's and 100 levels in what amounts to just a couple zones????? The latest expansions aren't THAT compelling. S***, who do they think players are?? Stupid? Blind, like them? The game has many hundreds of zones and yet players are smashed up into a couple. They're all blind. They think EQ classic was grind and that's all they think, yet, they spend their time grinding in modern EQ. They don't see the other things. In other words, they don't understand why classic EQ worked. The developers remove SOME of the grind, but they don't get the other things right. They're like somebody who just can't make a GOOD pie.

I don't get why anybody plays the modern game. I DO understand why some people play on Fippy or make alts or just play in the older content. But beyond that, all I see is a super linear game. Everything is so goddamn shafted. It might not be so bad if they had a bigger development team, but right now, it's just too small. A lot of companies that make linear games succeed because they make good stories and make high quality productions. But EQ is just not going to get there without a much larger budget. They need to stop making the game linear, if they can't afford to back up their plans with actions.

What am I saying? I'm saying look at defiant gear. It's LINEAR. It drops everywhere and has broad-encompassing stats and linearly increases with level. It symbolizes everything that's wrong. EQ has taken this philosophy of linear things that're all-encompassing and have applied it now to their latest content.

They took classic EQ and trashed almost all of it, without keeping the good things.

Through the years I've had huge patience for them. I'm even downloading their game. Nostalgia has driven me back to their servers, but probably not for long. I've been reading, you see. And add that to everything I've experienced and it paints a very bleak and pitiful picture of their plans for EQ. I last played on live in 2010. Even back then, I was not much different. I had posted about my concerns with the game. I posted about mudflation and classic things. I had some fun, but eventually left. I wasn't angry, just tired. I've learned new things since then, but not directly pertaining to EQ. At this moment, seeing the formulaic degeneration of EQ, even though ti's not surprising and is years in the making, is still distressing to me. I guess since I've been away for a while I've kind of forgotten just how bad things are on EQ live. It's painful being reminded again.

I'm hoping I'm wrong. I'm hoping it's just an overreaction to a few things I've read. I know I get touchy with some of these subjects and I've done it in the past. Maybe once I login and goof around a bit, I'll get over it. Hell, I can pretend it's 2005 and play in POP and act like nothing else exists. Maybe I'll get sick of POP and be reminded of some of the flaws classic EQ had (it was not a perfect game).

If there was just a way to delete defiant armor and similar all-encompassing linear s*** and be able to find groups or at least see other players, it'd resolve some issues. I can decide not to wear defiant. Maybe I can find a progression guild. Either way, the higher levels don't interest me right now. I've played EQ live in the past even when I didn't like it. I complained in the forums a lot and yet I still played. I can still do that. It's just a matter of controlling how you play so that you "like" it, but it's like swimming against the tide. You get tired and worn. This is mostly because you have to work to "like" it. You don't naturally like it.

Why do this? Why play on live if you don't like the direction ti's going? Because it's free, first and foremost. And secondly, nothing else can stand in for EQ live except EQ live. I can play any manner of game and it's better, but it's not EQ live. I have to play EQ live to scratch this itch I have. It's like visiting your uncle. He's older now and different somewhat. But no one else is your uncle. Nobody else can replace him.

SOE might be blind, but I'm blind enough to still login. I'm not really any better. If was a better man, I'd just walk away from it. But I'm not that kind of man. I hold onto things longer than I should.

[webrunner5]

Well I play live off and on myself. I just pretty much make new alts. I never bought the latest Expansion. They have made the high end of the game so damn hard it is crazy. But I guess they really had no other way to go. If they didn't keep raising how high levels wise you could go, making new zones with the new expansions, and coming up with new gear how were they suppose to keep harldly anyone staying the same?

The same will happen here. After Velious is out for 2 years or so what then? You can only make so many alts, and draw in so many new people. P1999 will be like Red at some point in time. On life support. But something new always comes along to replace pretty much everything and everybody. Such is life.

[Hex]

Bring back Star Wars Galaxies PRE Combat Patch!

[SamwiseRed]

Bring back Star Wars Galaxies PRE Combat Patch!

swg emu up, its pretty good but last time i played wasnt much pvp yet.

[Hex]

Yeah, I looked it up, and it says "NO TORRENTED." Is that just to save them, or can they really detect it and ban you? Which is funny, because I totally had two CEs, and threw them out after the game went down for good.

[Gadwen]

Yeah, I looked it up, and it says "NO TORRENTED." Is that just to save them, or can they really detect it and ban you? Which is funny, because I totally had two CEs, and threw them out after the game went down for good.

They have to say that, there is no way for them to tell.

[Hex]

That's what I figured.

[Malice_Mizer]

Any idea if they're going to announce a new time-locked progression server for original EQ at SOElive?

Fippy & Vulak (especially) are fading fast, from what I hear.

[Hex]

Fippy isn't too dead.

[Essedge]

Regarding EQnext/EQ classic comparisons, there are clearly many people that would pay for and play a more classic style MMO, but I can see why developers would rather pursue the greater population that wants something less time intensive, in order to get more revenue. A niche game has less revenue potential and development costs for MMOs can be huge.

Not to play devil's advocate but I don't believe a few thousand people spread over a handful of emu servers is considered "many" in the current MMO world. You could add up all those folks and include people still playing EQlive, Vanguard, etc and that still wouldn't compare to even a niche market like Eve-Online which i think is around 30-40k active players.

times have changed, the "few" old cats still playing these classic games aren't on any big companies radar.

[Essedge]

one could view the music industry the same, Tony Bennett vs. Justin Bieber.

Bennett sells out the casino's he plays in, Bieber sells out arena's. When Tony puts on a show he'll draw his old fans still alive and a few herpderp hipsters, when Bieber puts on a show he'll get massive amounts of 5-15yr old kids and their suicidal parents along with making shit tons of money for the labels and sponsors.


on a side note, if Tony represents EQ what is Bieber? probably not WoW since that game is almost classic, maybe the Rolling Stones who keep pulling the "we're not dead yet" routine.

[Kagatob]

on a side note, if Tony represents EQ what is Bieber? probably not WoW since that game is almost classic, maybe the Rolling Stones who keep pulling the "we're not dead yet" routine.

:eek:

That kind of speak should be bannable. I'm not even joking.

[Essedge]

:eek:

That kind of speak should be bannable. I'm not even joking.

That game is old as hell now, in the early 2000's they were playing grunge on classic rock stations.. just sayin

[Malice_Mizer]

Yeah, WoW didn't used to be purely random queing for dungeons and 100% linear, hold-your-hand content.

Almost 10 years old :{

[stormlord]

Well I've got the chance to log into live and try it. I'll still play a bit, but...

I think it just feels watered down and I respond negatively to that. By watered down, I mean that you level up with a mercenary doing most of the work. There're not many groups. People complain about the smallest things. It's too easy. Defiant gear erases the feeling of progression and discovery in the world. Some of this comes from mudflation and some comes from the shift away from old mechanics to wow-like mechanics.

I'll start by explaining mudflation then I'll end the post with a comment about wow-like mechanics.

Mudflation is a real simple concept, but I guess if someone has never been introduced to it, they won't know what I mean. I'll try to keep my definition simple. Mudflation is similar to the rich vs poor divide. It's what happens when the rich get richer and the poor can't rise up. In MMO's, the rich are like high levels that keep gaining more levels and power. The poor are like new players that enter into the game. The increasing amounts of levels and powers have grown so much since the beginning of the game that new players have to spend increasing amounts of time to reach maximum power.

Get that? Maybe?

Basically, it's a mathematical thing. If a game is adding X amount of power/levels via expansions then it's adding X amount of grind/progression (content). So with each new expansion it takes longer to reach maximum power. You can actually calculate how long it will take a player to reach maximum power at any point in the life of the game, as long as you know how much the game will grow in the future.

Like this:
Year 1: A player can reach max level/power in 8 months (average playtime estimates).
Year 2: A player can reach max level/power in 11 months.
Year 3: A player can reach max level/power in 13 months.
Year 4: A player can reach max level/power in 16 months.

SO, if you started at year 1 then it would require 16 months to maintain max power/level at year 4. This is true only if you stop playing once you've reached max. Now, for a player that STARTS in year 4, it'll not only require 16 months to reach max, but it will require more since the game will grow during the time that they're playing. On Year 5, the game might require 18 months to reach cap, for example. This means that for a player that doesn't play consistently, they'll very likely never reach maximum power/level. It also means that for a person that starts on year 1, they only need to play 8 months to reach maximum power/level and after that they only need to play a couple months with each new expansion to reach maximum level/power.

The problem is that new players want a chance to reach maximum power and want to be able to play with the veterans. This is especially true with older games that're top-heavy because there're not many new players entering the game. New players don't like to play alone. SO the response is to mudflate the game.

By mudflating the game, you can maintain a set amount of time to reach maximum level or power in the game. So a new player entering the game when it has just launched will require as much time to reach maximum level/power as a new player that enters the game in its fifth year.

There're lots of ways do to this. One way would be to kill off the veterans. This would be like adding perma-death to the game once a player reaches a certain power or level. It's not a popular method. A more practical way is just to give new players a leg up. Give them faster experience and better items than the veterans had at that point in their lives. This will allow the new players to catch up.

But how does muflation water down the game, as I stated previously???? Well, it primarily does this to the new players or the players that're not quite veterans. Basically, with all hte increased experience and ubber items and hand holding what happens is that the experience becomes somewhat like racing down a beautiful scenic road at 550 mph. It's hard to appreciate the scenery and grow attached to it when you're moving so fast. It inevitably feels watered down and even too easy. It's like you're disconnected from the world. To make matters worse, you're probably playing in OLDER content that has bad graphics AND you're playing mostly alone, unless the game you're playing has a matchmaking service. FAct of the matter is, most old games will not have a lot of new players, so when you play these games, you have to plan on soloing a lot.

Lastly, SOE has shifted from its 1999-2003 focus. It has watered down the game intentionally to compete with games like WoW. Increasingly, new mmo's are also supporting the console video gamers. Obviously, casual players are a far larger customer base than the hardcores will ever be. So this inevitably leads to gameplay that feels too easy or too soft. For somebody like me that likes to feel I'm living on the edge in a tough brutal uncaring world, this easing of the standards and expectations on me is highly undesired. But I guess if I play a more mainstream game like EQ, I should not be surprised when they try to appeal to casuals.

[stormlord]

Yeah, WoW didn't used to be purely random queing for dungeons and 100% linear, hold-your-hand content.

Almost 10 years old :{
In its first year, it was remarkably like EQ. No corpse runs and whatnot, but still similar. It even had home-cities, just like EQ. I read the people who worked on WoW were raiders in EQ a few years prior.

[SamwiseRed]

wow was awesome in vanilla. well the world pvp anyway.

[stormlord]

Any idea if they're going to announce a new time-locked progression server for original EQ at SOElive?

Fippy & Vulak (especially) are fading fast, from what I hear.
Don't think so. They'll probably merge those.

I think that anything without the mercenaries and the tutorial and the defiant gear is so different that it's worht having a server for that, even if the experience rate is high and other changes remain. Without the (overpowered) mercenaries, you really have to learn your class quick. The pressure is higher. Without the defiant gear, the rewards in the older world have more value. You can't just go anywhere and get raid-level gear (defiant gear), you instead have to know where the names are and where the quests are. And starting in your homecity is a lot different than starting in the tutorial. Granted, the homecities are old and the graphics are bad, but some of the quests in them could be updated, at least. Overall, it gives the game more character.

Fippy and Vulak (not f2p) interest me, but EQ Mac also interests me. For one, EQ Mac is capped at POP. Fippy and Vulak are almost at POR and TSS and will not stop the progression until they're normal.

The problem with EQMac is that many windows users won't try it and it's a buggy codebase, dating back to 2003. EQMac would be more popular if the codebase was newer and it was windows-friendly. To give you an idea of how old EQ Mac is, IT HAS NO IN-GAME MAPS. See what I mean, now?

To be honest, if EQ Mac was more windows-friendly, I'd be playing it on it now. I've read that windows users can somehow get it to work, but I think it's too much to ask of a normal user. What makes it worse is that the good things in EQ Mac are spoiled by all these things. It makes my heart break in two.

Here's some discussion about EQ Mac vs Fippy:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=1&mid=1299635250192629144&h=50

[Malice_Mizer]

Yeah, I played on Fippy when it first launched and got a full set of newbie Bard armor (Tranquilsong), and had that full set for eternity.

Not sure why they kept those quests in for classic. Armor looked awesome and it was neat having full +stat plate at lvl 5 on a new server, but it definitely detracted from the experience of having incomplete sets and pieces of crap armor well into end-game like classic EQ.

[Lyra]

I know nothing about EQ Next and I really don't want to, but these videos are quite entertaining:

http://www.youtube.com/user/EverQuestNext/videos

I don't think I will ever look at Firiona Vie the same again...

[porigromus]

Well I play live off and on myself. I just pretty much make new alts. I never bought the latest Expansion. They have made the high end of the game so damn hard it is crazy. But I guess they really had no other way to go. If they didn't keep raising how high levels wise you could go, making new zones with the new expansions, and coming up with new gear how were they suppose to keep harldly anyone staying the same?

The same will happen here. After Velious is out for 2 years or so what then? You can only make so many alts, and draw in so many new people. P1999 will be like Red at some point in time. On life support. But something new always comes along to replace pretty much everything and everybody. Such is life.

Myth! ;) EQMac is an example of how a static came can go on for a long long time.

[Nirgon]

@ You can only make so many alts comments:

You realize how long it takes a normal human being on a freshly rolled server to get lvl 60?

[Gadwen]

To be honest, if EQ Mac was more windows-friendly, I'd be playing it on it now. I've read that windows users can somehow get it to work, but I think it's too much to ask of a normal user. What makes it worse is that the good things in EQ Mac are spoiled by all these things. It makes my heart break in two.

Here's some discussion about EQ Mac vs Fippy:
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=1&mid=1299635250192629144&h=50

EQ Mac is not hard to get running, all you need is the secrets zip, a fresh install of titanium (i just copy/pasted my p99 directory and it worked fine) and a working login for SOE.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64802&page=66

Last post has instructions with what should be a working DL of secrets file, just make sure your anti virus isn't stopping it from downloading it...it won't like the winsock.exe

Oh, and use this launchpad link https://lp.soe.com/eqmac/live/

[webrunner5]

Yeah, I run EQmac on my PC. The only thing that does not work for me is mouse look. I can't scroll back on the wheel. No big deal. To lazy to fix it, but I am sure it can be fixed. :D

[Gadwen]

Yeah, I run EQmac on my PC. The only thing that does not work for me is mouse look. I can't scroll back on the wheel. No big deal. To lazy to fix it, but I am sure it can be fixed. :D

I'm not sure if this is a PC related or if that camera mode just isn't in that version of the game.

[webrunner5]

I'm not sure if this is a PC related or if that camera mode just isn't in that version of the game.

You could be right. :(

[Razdeline]

Not only that, but a lot of people in this thread are not keeping up with current industry trends and what the general consumer wants. Here is a hint: It isn't wow.

All wow clones are failing, keep crappy subs, have to lay off large portions of development staff. The model does NOT work anymore.

It works only for 1 thing: Initial sales and hype created from marketing, but once people figure out what it is, they stop playing.

If you haven't been to the EQNext page, have heard Smedley talk about EQN, you haven't been paying attention. This is speculation, but there is a lot of *hints* and nostalgia floating around from their developers on classic EQ. Not only that, everyone on their dev team has PLAYED classic EQ.

Smedley describes some basic elements of what to expect from EQN: A sandbox first and foremost, the largest created. Minecraft gathering/building elements. A changing environment from the players. Either casually or combat related. This means a battle could level a forest, but the forest could grow back. Or the casual aspect of players crafting different buildings.
Another fun fact: The original tradeskill developer from EQ2 is heading up tradeskills here. EQ2 had the most in depth tradeskilling of any game I have seen. It was a mini game and well crafted.

Smedley: Factions: Factions are going to be a major aspect of this game.

Smedley: PS4 servers and Computer servers will be seperated.

Smedley: In EverQuest Next, the world itself is a part of the game. What is the world in these other games? It's a simple backdrop. It's nothing. We are changing that greatly. We're changing what AI is in these games to a degree that we're going to bring life to the world. That to us is the essence of the change that we're making. (They are trying to re-create immersion which is dead in modern MMO's)

Smedley(on Emergent gameplay): We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that. We're not talking about the end of raids, the end of this incredibly high-level content. We're talking about changing the nature of the world around it so that there's a lot more to do "in between" expansions. But imagine the entire world as part of the interaction. Imagine seasons changing.(The weather in eq is awesome can you imagine seasons?!) Imagine if you're a Druid and you need to literally seek out reagents for your spells or worship your deity in a glade somewhere off in the wilderness, but you don't know where.(more immersion here. This type of gameplay described is similar to UO) Or image forests growing back after they're burned to the ground by invading forces. What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.

[Razdeline]

Design philosophy of EQN: Just skip to 7:40-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dt-MEgLXKXs

[Gadwen]

LOL @ smed quotes. We are really innovating over here guys! The box, we are thinking outside of it! Typical vague ramblings of a dev hyping their own game.

[Tecmos Deception]

Not only that, but a lot of people in this thread are not keeping up with current industry trends and what the general consumer wants. Here is a hint: It isn't wow.

All wow clones are failing, keep crappy subs, have to lay off large portions of development staff. The model does NOT work anymore.

It works only for 1 thing: Initial sales and hype created from marketing, but once people figure out what it is, they stop playing.

If you haven't been to the EQNext page, have heard Smedley talk about EQN, you haven't been paying attention. This is speculation, but there is a lot of *hints* and nostalgia floating around from their developers on classic EQ. Not only that, everyone on their dev team has PLAYED classic EQ.

Smedley describes some basic elements of what to expect from EQN: A sandbox first and foremost, the largest created. Minecraft gathering/building elements. A changing environment from the players. Either casually or combat related. This means a battle could level a forest, but the forest could grow back. Or the casual aspect of players crafting different buildings.
Another fun fact: The original tradeskill developer from EQ2 is heading up tradeskills here. EQ2 had the most in depth tradeskilling of any game I have seen. It was a mini game and well crafted.

Smedley: Factions: Factions are going to be a major aspect of this game.

Smedley: PS4 servers and Computer servers will be seperated.

Smedley: In EverQuest Next, the world itself is a part of the game. What is the world in these other games? It's a simple backdrop. It's nothing. We are changing that greatly. We're changing what AI is in these games to a degree that we're going to bring life to the world. That to us is the essence of the change that we're making. (They are trying to re-create immersion which is dead in modern MMO's)

Smedley(on Emergent gameplay): We absolutely need to build that style of content into every game we make because players want that. We're not talking about the end of raids, the end of this incredibly high-level content. We're talking about changing the nature of the world around it so that there's a lot more to do "in between" expansions. But imagine the entire world as part of the interaction. Imagine seasons changing.(The weather in eq is awesome can you imagine seasons?!) Imagine if you're a Druid and you need to literally seek out reagents for your spells or worship your deity in a glade somewhere off in the wilderness, but you don't know where.(more immersion here. This type of gameplay described is similar to UO) Or image forests growing back after they're burned to the ground by invading forces. What we want is a dynamic world that gives all those other possibilities and doesn't just say OK, go to raid X with group composition of X, Y, Z, and kill the dragon for the 52nd time to get the tier 800 gear. It's this rinse-and-repeat gameplay that's got to change, and so we're changing it.

As much as I'd like to get excited, seeing as those mechanics are the things I've been wanting in an MMO for like a decade now, plenty of companies have promised the world to us and only ended up delivering an MMO that should probably still have been in alpha.

[Razdeline]

I agree, we don't know until actual details are revealed and or game in beta.

[Razdeline]

LOL @ smed quotes. We are really innovating over here guys! The box, we are thinking outside of it! Typical vague ramblings of a dev hyping their own game.

It isn't about hype. Apparently you didn't read and or comprehend anything he said. This game is a Sandbox. There aren't many first off. Secondly, they are doing things differently because they acknowledge the current trend of shit. Read the bottom of the post and try again.

[Gadwen]

It isn't about hype. Apparently you didn't read and or comprehend anything he said. This game is a Sandbox. There aren't many first off. Secondly, they are doing things differently because they acknowledge the current trend of shit. Read the bottom of the post and try again.

rofl, right. Factions will exist, and the game is a sandbox are the only specifics you can gather from all that. And no, im not watching the video. The quotes are just ramblings about design ideas, nothing more.

Smed wants YOU to imagine what his next game will be like....wooooo im outside the box guys!

[SirAlvarex]

The pessimism is strong in these ones.....yesssss

[Gadwen]

The pessimism is strong in these ones.....yesssss

It's true, I have no faith in SOE.

[Lagaidh]

In its first year, it was remarkably like EQ. No corpse runs and whatnot, but still similar. It even had home-cities, just like EQ. I read the people who worked on WoW were raiders in EQ a few years prior.

I remember playing WoW beta and thinking that so many features of what I was seeing were a direct answer to the cries of EQ players.

I went back to EQ for another 2 years before giving WoW a try in Live. Wow was fun enough for what I needed out of a game then - less commitment.

[Treefall]

IMO Vanguard would have been good if it wasn't so buggy/shotty. I was so stoked for it.

Sadly, I think its goals were too lofty and it just ended up being trash.

[Gadwen]

IMO Vanguard would have been good if it wasn't so buggy/shotty. I was so stoked for it.

Sadly, I think its goals were too lofty and it just ended up being trash.

I'm pretty sure the game was just a big hoax pulled off by mcquaid.

[Treefall]

I'm pretty sure the game was just a big hoax pulled off by mcquaid.

lol, probably.

Still...it was going to be so much like Classic EQ w/o zones.

Obviously now they EQ2'd/WoW'd the shit out of it. Too bad, played up until it gave my healer that item to let anyone in the group rez me.

[Gadwen]

lol, probably.

Still...it was going to be so much like Classic EQ w/o zones.

Obviously now they EQ2'd/WoW'd the shit out of it. Too bad, played up until it gave my healer that item to let anyone in the group rez me.

I followed that game for a long time, was in the first wave of beta invites. I can honestly say that from the very first time I logged into beta I knew what the fate was going to be. The publisher switch hurt them yes, but they had a mess on their hands before any of that even happened.

So many great ideas, such poor execution.

[stormlord]

I think I read Smedly say the game should be an immersive sandbox, or something.

It all boils down to this:
1) Sandbox environment affects other players
2) Immersion requires focused attention

Most players do not want to deal with a**holes or sh**** neighbors. Inevitably, sandbox environments need rules to clean up the commons. If they did not, most players would leave because of frustration with somebody in the game. This means they must limit what you can do, where you can do it and when you can do it and so on. The problem with this is controlling the sandbox is antithetical to what a sandbox is. A sandbox is about changing the environment. Controlling what you can change and where and when is in opposition to this goal.

People like immersion, somewhat. The problem is that it envelops you and demands your attention. These demands can place restrictions on you. This is where the problem resides. The majority viewpoint among gamers is that some focused attention is fine, but it should be tempered so that it's friendly and can be picked up and put down with ease. This means you can go afk at your convenience and when you're playing you will almost never be overwhelmed by sensory information from the game. Limiting immersion is also antithetical to the goal of immersion - which is to immerse in the sensory information the game feeds you.

So I read what people say about immersion and sandbox things and I always keep this all in mind. There's so much hype out there. The reality is these things have limits placed on them. The caveat is if a game is smaller (not mainstream), it can afford to be more extreme, but big budget games cannot do that. Case in point, I feel that Wurm Online is already a strongly immersive and sandbox world, but it's also a very small consumer base. If it was a big game with more players, it could not be permitted to be this way.

I expect a lot of hype about EQN, just as with any other game. They all hype. When you dig beneath the dirt they use to dress up and obfuscate the reality, what you see is they cannot back up their fairy tales with actual substance because doing so would destroy their customer base and leave them without a job. In the long run, hype helps to build interest, so despite how I feel, companies will keep on doing it.

My advice is... try Wurm Online. Yes, the skill grind is bad, the graphics aren't great and there's no hand holding, but based on my own experiences, it's one of the most immersive sandboxes I've ever enjoyed. It's one of the few games where you can get lost as a new player and killed by monsters in the middle of nowhere on a hilltop. If you don't die, you can gaze up at the stars (yes there's day/night cycles AND seasons). If you do die, you'll have to run back - and not get killed - to get your corpse. Yes, Wurm Online has corpse runs.

Wurm Online is more immersive than Everquest was at its peak AND it's a sandbox. I used to think nothing could beat the feeling of intensity in Everquest. I remember all the trains and the aggro problems and the ranger gates, but Wurm Online beats Everquest. Classic Everquest is now obsolete, finally. Of course, once you get a deed and start spending $$$, Wurm Online is a lot less intense, but I have to give it credit for trying. Evenso, if you're on a pvp server, the intensity comes right back. In fact, on epic, it reaches its climax.

[Nirgon]

Shadowbane was a sandbox

I distinctly recall them telling people to upgrade their computers or stop crying about getting sand thrown in their eyes in said sandbox by one of the other kids

Oh, the days when CSR/devs had balls and could tell the lowest common denominator to talk to the hand and l2p

[Sollix]

IMO Vanguard would have been good if it wasn't so buggy/shotty. I was so stoked for it.

Sadly, I think its goals were too lofty and it just ended up being trash.

Yes. This made me think that there's still room for innovation that could entice me into playing a current MMO!

However, didn't they simply run out of money and wind up forced to launch an unfinished product? Seemed like the powers that be didn't deem it worthy of the further investment to finish the game.

[Swish]

I think the point that SOE got involved was Vanguard's downfall... couldn't be letting it get ahead of EQ2, despite it having way more potential.

[Gadwen]

I think the point that SOE got involved was Vanguard's downfall... couldn't be letting it get ahead of EQ2, despite it having way more potential.

The game was a complete mess before SOE even got involved. MS dropped it for a reason. I know, people like to think that MS just stomped all over Brads glorious dream out of malice. They saw the game, it was a mess and was not even close to being on track for a release. They ultimately decided that it was worth taking shortcuts, and implementing "mainstream" mmo features to get another publisher on board and actually get the game released.

Yeah, there were a lot of great ideas, but ideas don't mean much when you and your team can't execute them.

[fadetree]

^ this.

In fact, having lots of great ambitious ideas is usually bad for a project.