Are there any tools to simulate/gauge DPS?

[frefaln]

I know the topic is as old as dirt, but there is so much misinformation out there on old-school message boards when it comes to offhand delay/damage and how it all adds up.

The one story (apparently wrong): offhand delay doesn't matter. Some take it further and suggest that offhand delay is on its own timer and weapon delay has nothing to do with it.

The other "official" story: offhand delay works just like primary delay, except with offhand delay it does a Dual Wield check first and, on success, will swing.

I'm adopting the latter story as the truth, but I'm still grappling with a decision. Currently my primary is Burning Rapier, 7/20. My offhand is Gloomwater Harpoon, 9/31 (both dmg bonus 3).

For every argument I see that suggests I should always put the fastest weapon in my primary (which makes sense to me), I see others suggesting that rogues always want to leverage higher-damage weps in primary for the backstab.

I know it's "pretty" to have bigger numbers on the backstabs but I'm not interested in wow'ing anybody. I just want to make sure I'm being the most efficient DPS contributor I can be given what I have. And this long rant said, all I really want to do is find out if there's some kind of known, proven, acceptable tool outside of EQ that predicts DPS based on a given configuration?

[Dersk]

Take someone that can dual wield and put a lightstone in your primary. Watch yourself melee things with only your secondary, then stick your tongue out at the idiots that think your secondary attack speed depends on your primary's delay.

Edit: yes, there are calculators for dps, but I can't seem to find them now...

[RKromwell]

I was always told to put the highest damage weapon in your off hand slot. It doesn't get the same damage bonus as the one in your primary.

/shrug

[Reiker]

Google GamParse. It's an EQ log parser that will tell you your dps. You just need to /log on and point GamParse to your log file (in the Log folder of your EQ install).

Be mindful that GamParse is currently configured for current live EQ. It won't parse if you do less than 10,000 damage or something like that, which obviously you won't be doing on P99. So make sure you go into the options and tweak some of the settings, especially that one, or your fights won't parse.

[Cribanox]

I always heard that your offhand only swings when your main hand does. It's probably wrong, though.

[Dersk]

I always heard that your offhand only swings when your main hand does. It's probably wrong, though.

I've heard sitting on top of a spawn can stop it from spawing due to an anti-camp spawn radius. I've heard plains pebbles reduce the amount of food you have to eat. I've heard people say haste will make a person proc more, that CHA improves faction standings, cha can affect resists for shaman, and many other things that have never had a shred of evidence to support them.

Offhand depending on primary delay is one of them, too.

While I hate misinformation, I do find it an endearing quality of the game. It's like my hick relatives that believe a dog licking a wound promotes healing, despite the dog having just licked its own ass.

[frefaln]

Google GamParse. It's an EQ log parser that will tell you your dps. You just need to /log on and point GamParse to your log file (in the Log folder of your EQ install).

Thanks much, checking it out now.

[Yoite]

i couldnt get game parse to work for P99. search the server chat forum for "parser" and look for a post i started. in that post, are some links to some good parsers to use on P99. Yaulp is super easy and works well.

[frefaln]

I've gotten GamParse to work for the most part and it's pretty brilliant, I love the on-screen overlays of DPS breakdowns. The only part I haven't quite worked out is the "send to EQ" feature which sends summaries to your clipboard (and then to EQ if you paste). It seems the damage totals are rounded to thousands, so one test fight in Mistmoore results in:

/say A glyphed familiar in 52s, 0k @9dps --- Purist 0k @6dps (61.83%) --- Kasann 0k @3dps (33.82%) --- Kebbon 0k @5dps (4.36%)

Kinda helpful, but the "0k" is somewhat annoying and I haven't found an option/threshold for that piece specifically. The overlays and summaries themselves have the exact damage totals, so that's cool.

[Spirou]

I use this DPM EQ Calculator.

http://hem.passagen.se/grawn/EQDPMCalculator/

Not sure how acurate it is ..
But seems ok to me.

Give your feed back.

Houba

[frefaln]

Thanks Spirou, I'll check that out also. I'll tell ya though, GamParse is fantastic. I love the way it puts every fight into nice lists, graphs, group-member breakouts, etc.

If anyone's curious, it turns out Burning Rapier primary and Gloomwater Harpoon offhand was noticeably higher DPS, I'd say between 10% and 15% just going off a couple hours in Mistmoore. Yeah, my backstab numbers are lower but so what — it's still the more effective combo and my overall DPS was consistently at the top of the group list (sometimes #2, damn monks). There was another rogue in the group using harpoon as primary and was consistently at the bottom of the list, but in fairness I don't know what her offhand was.

In summary, fellow rogues: if someone tells you that higher-damage weps always trumps speed in primary, don't just accept it as gospel. Test it. My scenario has proven to me that speed kills.

Also, what Dersk said above is correct: offhand swings are not dependent on primary swings or hits (two people tried to /tell me that since I started this thread tonight). Per Dersk's suggestion I invited them both to put a lightstone in primary and see if their offhand never triggered. They just laughed but I went ahead and tested it for them. Sure enough I was hitting with offhand just fine :)

[Cribanox]

So then how does it work? You have the same two weapons, but keeping the faster one in primary is the best way? Or is it keeping the best Dps-ratio weapon in primary the best way to go?

[frefaln]

The faster wep in the primary was better for my situation, but I won't claim a singular rule for all scenarios. In my case the rapier is much faster than the harpoon so it makes sense that it did considerably more damage as the primary — primary is a guaranteed swing per each delay, offhand is conditional pending a dual-wield check per delay. Devs, please step in and correct me if I'm wrong here.

At this point I'm not buying into the "rules" about ratio. Not yet, anyway. If you've got two hella-fast weapons there are probably cases where speed trumps ratio. Based on what I've seen in parsing tonight I'd rather have an offhand of 8/26 than a 12/36 for example. The latter is the better ratio but it results in far fewer DW checks (and consequently, swings).

Even setting the parsing aside, when I swapped the weps and had the harpoon as primary, everything simply felt more sluggish. Sure enough, the numbers backed it up.

[Cribanox]

I would assume that the better ratio weapon 13/36 would be muxh better than the 8/26, even though you have fewer swings overall, when you do hit you hit for much more to make up for it.

[frefaln]

Well, I think that's the trick — finding the threshold where speed can be sacrificed for ratio because the higher damage makes up for lost swings. I'm not sure there's a singular rule that can be applied across the board.

[Dersk]

So then how does it work? You have the same two weapons, but keeping the faster one in primary is the best way? Or is it keeping the best Dps-ratio weapon in primary the best way to go?

It depends. A fine steel dagger won't beat out much of anything worth looting even though it's one of the fastest weapons available.

The following is heavily influenced by damage tables, attack buffs, and mob AC, but it's an easy way to look at the weapons for comparison: multiply the weapon damage by two then add the damage bonus. Divide that number by the delay for a ratio appropriate to the primary. For the secondary, multiply the damage by two but do not add the damage bonus.

My mind has drawn a blank on weapons in classic, so I'll use fine steel as an example at level 50 (8 damage bonus).

Scimitar: 5 dmg, 24 delay. Ratio in primary: 0.75. Ratio in secondary: 0.42

Longsword: 6 dmg, 28 delay. Primary: 0.71. Secondary: 0.43

Fine steel dagger: 3 dmg 19 delay. Primary: 0.74. Secondary: 0.32.

The longsword has the better dmg/delay ratio, so it's the best weapon for offhand. However, even though the fine steel dagger is much faster, its pitiful ratio means that the slower scimitar is better in the primary and secondary.

In truth, low level characters would benefit more from a damage bonus, but since the damage bonus doesn't even shot up until 28, this is the easiest method that doesn't demand very involved equations.

[Sckrilla]

Glad this thread came up and you put some facts behind the hearsay, Kebbon.

Being a Rogue with the Gloompoon/BR combo, I've received so much flak for main-equipping BR and having Gloom in off-hand. I've always thought having Gloom in main-hand felt sluggish and your tests have just further proven that. Thanks for taking the time to run some tests, as I see a lot of Rogues with the exact same combo throughout their 30s.

[Reiker]

Yes... your primary hand gets a damage bonus. Every time you swing your primary weapon, you are guaranteed to hit for at least whatever that damage is, unless you miss of course. If your damage bonus is 11, then you'll always hit for x damage + 11. Off hand doesn't receive this bonus, which is why "fastest in primary" is suggested so often. The faster you swing your primary, the more times you're applying the damage bonus. This is why I hated the Wurmslayer. I believe it had the standard 11 damage bonus at 60, but swung on a 4 second delay. That means in a minute, without haste, and all hits connecting, you gain +165 damage through damage bonus. One minute, no misses, no haste, a fine steel dagger gains +347.37 damage through damage bonus. This is why the Mosscovered Twig was so badass at 3/10, that's +660 damage every minute (no haste, no missing) from damage bonus alone.

There are certain circumstances where best ratio in primary and fastest in secondary is more dps though, depending on how bad your fast weapon is, and if you're a rogue. This is why parsing is nice.

And lol if you still think your arms don't swing independently.

[Hasbinbad]

Highest damage possible in primary, ratio is king in offhand.
..and lol if you still think your arms don't swing independently..

frefaln, your dps went up because of your procs, which are bad for a rogue, unless you enjoy dying. Don't use procs. Put your highest damage weapon in your mainhand, and stfu.

[frefaln]

Sorry Has but you're wrong :) The parser lets you isolate fights based however you like, and yes, I isolated sets of fights which had no procs and the DPS was still higher with BR in the primary and Harpoon in the offhand.

And I never said arms didn't swing independently, I said the opposite. Oh, and stfu right back atcha.

[Hasbinbad]

Sorry Has but you're wrong :) The parser lets you isolate fights based however you like, and yes, I isolated sets of fights which had no procs and the DPS was still higher with BR in the primary and Harpoon in the offhand.

And I never said arms didn't swing independently, I said the opposite. Oh, and stfu right back atcha.
get an eyerazzia and quitchyer bitchin!!

[Noleafclover]

Never played a rogue, but I'd think evading you'd be OK to use a straight-damage proccing weapon. But is BR high aggro 'cause of the AC reduction (that it has iirc)? Maybe feigning in combat is just much better aggro reduction than your hide/sneak thing, though, idk numbers.

Question about damage bonuses, I still hit for 1 sometimes as a monk, and I've never quite understood it (I'm 50). This may be only on very high AC mobs, and that may explain it. Can't recall specific circumstances.

[frefaln]

The BR hasn't caused me problems with aggro at all, 38dd a pop. The serrated bone dirk, however, was a major pain in the ass and I'm glad to be rid of it. With a warrior tanking, forget it, I usually swapped out the SBD for a straight-up FS rapier or something.

As for dmg bonus, it's my understanding that it's added to your damage after all the other calculations have been factored in. However, I'm not sure whether that's all before or after the mob's AC/mitigation is taken into account. If you're getting hits for 1 and assuming your dmg bonus is much higher, seems fair to assume that AC/mitigation is applied after dmg is tallied up. But alas, I'm guessing, hopefully someone can weigh in.