Soulfire

[Ele]

Who wants to place bets on whether TMO clerics even use their donals in raids for anything except healing someone who stones/cannis down during buffing?

DL Spam FTW

[Splorf22]

The shitty thing about Soulfire's is they trivialize an encounter, NOT all encounters simultaneously.

Translation from Alarti spinspeak: FE killed something, therefore soulfires need to nerfed.

Also, my whole point is that because Donal's BPs are in fact useful on all encounters simultaneously, they have a greater impact.

[Tiddlywinks]

You don't change the way things work because they are game-breaking if they are already functioning exactly how they were in classic EQ.

Soulfire shouldn't be nerfed.
Donals should be nerfed until the appropriate time.
Ivaynders hoop should never have been nerfed.

This isn't a classic EQ server. It's a few dudes take on it, and that's about it. Sad times.

[Bantam 1]

You don't need to do a CH rotation is the mob is 32k and dies in seconds. I'd wager they only care about Donals because they sell so nicely.

Maybe I'm just a nerd and my job is basically planning irl.....

but if one guild has a lot of Donal's BPs and the clerics to use them then they could easily trivialize the harder Velious content. I'd imagine TMO is only selling ones they get over and beyond what they'd ever actually use. Nothing against TMO here - if I were their guild logistics officer I'd be all on stocking Donal's and grabbing a wavecrasher in Velious ASAP (or whatever its called).

What I don't like here as an upstart myself - is that there are people calling for one to be nerfed because it trivializes content and then scoff at the same nerf for Donals BP.

That stinks of "nerf their toys, but please don't nerf ours".

[lecompte]

This thread should, probably, have been moved to RnF around page 8 but it does occasionally land on topic.

In regards to Soulfire: It is classic, it is broken, it is beautiful. Isn't half the fun of playing a game to death finding new, interesting ways to manipulate content? I want to see 12 down Trak next week...

Lets see if we can do it with ONE group of Woody Warriors with puppet strings and Soulfires.

Omg, so sweet. We can have a weekly challenge. We start with doing it with 18 people, and each time someone pulls it off, the next people who make a stab at it have to do it with one less. Gonna be awesome.

[Alarti0001]

So instead of answering a simple question, you attempt to skirt the issue.
]

Someone is spinning here. It is probably the one using logical fallacies.

What was your question you wanted answered?

[Frieza_Prexus]

but if one guild has a lot of Donal's BPs

Donal's are actually in high demand for members still due to burn out/turnover and scarcity.

That said, most of TMO supports a Donals nerf on day 1 of Velious, and the dev staff has already commented that this is definitely on the table. Personally, I hope it is done. They were fixed on live the moment the devs were made aware of how broken they were in quantities of 3+. The BP nerf was conditioned upon the occurrence of a particular event (3+ being held by a single guild being used to indefinitely tank something), and that condition will be met day 1 of Velious.

Strict adherence to a timeline is not the only consideration in recreating a classic environment. It should be presumed that timeline adherence is in the server's best interest, but that presumption can be rebutted in situations like this. Of course, the opposition has yet to meet this burden with regards to SoulFire which should clearly stay as it is until that presumption is overcome.

[Alarti0001]

If you're going to cite logical fallacies, make sure you understand them: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_tradition

The server's stated intent ("Classic Everquest" - read as "as Classic as possible given client limitations and other factors") is why people are arguing for Classic mechanics, not out of love for Classic mechanics over love of the server (I'd gladly take no EXP penalty for hybrids, advanced tracking windows, and compass, thanks very much).

By definition, this is not a logical fallacy, and it is laughable that you would pretend this is an appeal to tradition fallacy.

Idiots who try to pretend they understand rhetoric are the worst kind of idiots.

You show yourself in the foot there. Key phrase... "as classic as possible", debating what is possible in a current context is a viable concept. Saying no simply because soulfire were usable in classic does not demonstrate proper thinking. I love how you quote your own interpretation of a phrase and then deem everyone should use that.

Maybe you should learn about rhetoric and fallacy beyond a wiki page haha.

[Alarti0001]

Translation from Alarti spinspeak: FE killed something, therefore soulfires need to nerfed.

Also, my whole point is that because Donal's BPs are in fact useful on all encounters simultaneously, they have a greater impact.

Actually, FE killing something cause TMO was super slow to engage we had no reason to still be sitting on our thumbs. Soulfire's need to be nerfed because they are game-breaking. FE shouldn't use them to kill Trak. TMO shouldn't use them to kill AoW. The end.

[falkun]

@Xasten: The opposition doesn't have to meet any kind of burden, SoulFire is already classically implemented. Those wanting it nerfed need to prove its more detrimental to the raid scene than making it unclassic is to the "Classic Vision."

@Alarti: Good admission, considering your logical fallacy a few posts ago. The question: "Are you arguing 'fun' and 'VP key denial' are mutually exclusive?" Otherwise, you've failed to argue anything against my point that TMO kills Trak for VP key denial. Try again.

[Alarti0001]

@Xasten: The opposition doesn't have to meet any kind of burden, SoulFire is already classically implemented. Those wanting it nerfed need to prove its more detrimental to the raid scene than making it unclassic is to the "Classic Vision."

@Alarti: Good admission, considering your logical fallacy a few posts ago. The question: "Are you arguing 'fun' and 'VP key denial' are mutually exclusive?" Otherwise, you've failed to argue anything against my point that TMO kills Trak for VP key denial. Try again.

I generally don't respond to bait questions. You are making accusation based on fault assumption about TMO's purpose of raiding. I feel no need to answer a question based on faulty logic. I made a statement and so did Xasten about TMO killing trak for Donals and Fun.
I rebutted your logic by asking you to answer why we kill Gore cause last I checked she doesn't drop VP keys.

You are embarrassing yourself deajay...as usual.

[Frieza_Prexus]

@Xasten: The opposition doesn't have to meet any kind of burden, SoulFire is already classically implemented. Those wanting it nerfed need to prove its more detrimental to the raid scene than making it unclassic is to the "Classic Vision."

I'm not disagreeing with you; I'm saying exactly that.

SoulFire was not nerfed in classic. It should be presumed that strict timeline adherence is the way to go, UNLESS the opposition (those arguing FOR a timeline deviation) successfully argue/overcome the presumption. Here that burden has not been met.

[Ele]

Actually, FE killing something cause TMO was super slow to engage we had no reason to still be sitting on our thumbs. Soulfire's need to be nerfed because they are game-breaking. FE shouldn't use them to kill Trak. TMO shouldn't use them to kill AoW. The end.

Any particular reason you waited over 2 years to bring this up?

What is your position on Reapers of the Dead?

[pharmakos]

Even if FE got a soulfire every 8 hours like clockwork that is only 1.6 complete heals per hour. Comparing that to a Donal's BP which can CH every 20 seconds is kinda asinine.

This thread should, probably, have been moved to RnF around page 8 but it does occasionally land on topic.

[Splorf22]

Soulfire's [sic] need to be nerfed because they are game-breaking.

Alarti, over twelve posts or something you have simply repeated yourself over and over again and ignored what I am saying. Please directly answer: why do you feel that Soulfires are more game breaking than

Puppet strings allowing Svenn to solo the Sebilite Protector
The Donals BP allowing Elethia and Sentenza to duo Ragefire
Enchanters charming the splits in Sky allowing The A-Team to take out the Spiroc Lord with 7
The A-Team using puppet strings to kill Trakanon with 10 (well, this would be happening if he wasn't killed within 5 minutes of spawning)

[Kinsawt]

Items that become necessary to compete on the raid scene are not good for the server, the raid guilds and they don't do justice to all the work done to recreate an expansion. It was sad to see Kunark beaten in 6 days, and I can assume TMO/FE and I know that IB doesn't want to see that happen again in Velious. Velious is the end of the road for this server, and we want to savor the last great races.

With Kunark we had 6 days worth of farming gear and more importantly leveling before downing Trakanon. I know everyone pines romantically over farming Dragon/Giant gear in Velious, but in reality it's marginal upgrades over what most of us have from Kunark farming for the past 2 years. That said, with Soulfires/Donals in their current state, I give Velious 2 days before all but The Warders are down.

Also, assuming we stay 'classic' as some of you want to argue, remember there was no levitating in Plane of Sky at launch on this server, and Avatar of War/Tormax might not even last 2 hours if Frozen Jesus/Moses are left in the game.

[Splorf22]

Even if the devs deleted every Soulfire, Reaper of the Dead, and Donals BP, and made everything in Kael immune to charm, the Avatar of War would still die on the first day to the great casual trash alliance of Divinity, Full Circle, Europa, Taken, The A-Team, BDA, Rapture, and Azure Guard zerging him down with 400 players.

Anyway I'm out of this discussion. I really think I need to delete my forum account and stop wasting time here.

[Alarti0001]

Any particular reason you waited over 2 years to bring this up?

What is your position on Reapers of the Dead?

I never mentioned anything about Sky always deleting my buffs when I ported up, or Lev not working initially, or Raid mobs quadding in Kunark either. I didn't bring anything up. This post was made by a different person.
Do I think Soulfire's will get nerfed... absolutely not. Should they? In my opinion, yes. To me the game should be played in the way it was intended not with some over-looked mechanic.
Clerics were made to CH raids. Soulfires/Donals BP's etc break cleric and raid mechanics. If you want autobot clerics you mine as well bring in Merc's from Live. Donal heals were nerfed on live because of the negative effect on the raid scence demonstrated by guilds using them to heal. It is highly doubtful raid guilds were using SoulFire CH spam to heal in Velious. If you say they did... prove it.

You can be a classic supporter without being an idiot. Just because something is "classic" doesn't mean its a good idea or even valid. i.e Hybrid exp penalties... just stupid.

[Alarti0001]

Even if the devs deleted every Soulfire, Reaper of the Dead, and Donals BP, and made everything in Kael immune to charm, the Avatar of War would still die on the first day to the great casual trash alliance of Divinity, Full Circle, Europa, Taken, The A-Team, BDA, Rapture, and Azure Guard zerging him down with 400 players.



LOL? Why cause you say so?

[Ele]

Items that become necessary to compete on the raid scene are not good for the server, the raid guilds and they don't do justice to all the work done to recreate an expansion. It was sad to see Kunark beaten in 6 days, and I can assume TMO/FE and I know that IB doesn't want to see that happen again in Velious. Velious is the end of the road for this server, and we want to savor the last great races.

With Kunark we had 6 days worth of farming gear and more importantly leveling before downing Trakanon. I know everyone pines romantically over farming Dragon/Giant gear in Velious, but in reality it's marginal upgrades over what most of us have from Kunark farming for the past 2 years. That said, with Soulfires/Donals in their current state, I give Velious 2 days before all but The Warders are down.

Also, assuming we stay 'classic' as some of you want to argue, remember there was no levitating in Plane of Sky at launch on this server, and Avatar of War/Tormax might not even last 2 hours if Frozen Jesus/Moses are left in the game.

Trak, Fay, VS, and Chardok Royals? One being a clone of another dragon killed scores of times, one just requiring rune, one which was severely broken (and using resist gear and buff stacking that shouldn't have been in game and OP charm), and the others which are meh anyway.

gg

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, over twelve posts or something you have simply repeated yourself over and over again and ignored what I am saying. Please directly answer: why do you feel that Soulfires are more game breaking than

Puppet strings allowing Svenn to solo the Sebilite Protector
The Donals BP allowing Elethia and Sentenza to duo Ragefire
Enchanters charming the splits in Sky allowing The A-Team to take out the Spiroc Lord with 7
The A-Team using puppet strings to kill Trakanon with 10 (well, this would be happening if he wasn't killed within 5 minutes of spawning)


Sure. Soulfire insta click. Donals not insta click--but I agree should be nerfed.

Also, what does a level of game-breaking have to do with anything? Are puppet strings going to get you Velious kills? Kunark is done. Its been broken for years. My focus is on the future.

[falkun]

Alarti, you still haven't argued why your Gorenaire point is relevant at all. You can have fun denying VP keys, yet you say that is not why you raid. If you are not trying to deny VP keys, why are you selling keys for as much as epic pieces? Why do you not hand them out to players in the zone? Why do you not announce they are there and whoever wants them can come loot them? If VP key denial is not one of your objectives, there are many opportunities for them not to be a side-effect.

I don't care if you do or not, but at least man-up and admit you are doing something intentionally.

[lecompte]

Even if the devs deleted every Soulfire, Reaper of the Dead, and Donals BP, and made everything in Kael immune to charm, the Avatar of War would still die on the first day to the great casual trash alliance of Divinity, Full Circle, Europa, Taken, The A-Team, BDA, Rapture, and Azure Guard zerging him down with 400 players.
The swarm is coming. I want to apply for a position as an Overmind. I suppose I better start coordinating between all the guilds to get this done. Day One Velious clear.


Anyway I'm out of this discussion. I really think I need to delete my forum account and stop wasting time here.

+1. I may need to as well. Do we have a AA program where you can have yourself banned from reading every thread but EC Tunnel?

[khanable]

I'm for nerfing Soulfires. I agree that it wasn't within the 'vision' of the game to Soulfire mobs down. Just like hooping mobs down, shit is dumb.

But if we're gonna go that route, you'll also need to fix:
-epics at level 1
-training in VP
-sub level 59/60 people in VP
-recharging items
-donals bp
-monks split pulling
-swam kiting
-all powerleveling techniques

etc etc

[Alarti0001]

Alarti, you still haven't argued why your Gorenaire point is relevant at all. You can have fun denying VP keys, yet you say that is not why you raid. If you are not trying to deny VP keys, why are you selling keys for as much as epic pieces? Why do you not hand them out to players in the zone? Why do you not announce they are there and whoever wants them can come loot them? If VP key denial is not one of your objectives, there are many opportunities for them not to be a side-effect.

I don't care if you do or not, but at least man-up and admit you are doing something intentionally.

Why should I give away anything? Do explain this to me.

[Erati]

recharging is classic yo !

back on Soulfire topic heres a shameless plug ;)

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=115697&highlight=soulfire


Dont hate the player, hate the game. U dont Soulfire down mobs, still requires alot of work n effort if u are downing Trak w 18 players.

[falkun]

Why should I give away anything? Do explain this to me.

L2read

[Ele]

I never mentioned anything about Sky always deleting my buffs when I ported up, or Lev not working initially, or Raid mobs quadding in Kunark either. I didn't bring anything up. This post was made by a different person.

Why dodge my question and raise a bunch of strawmen? You certainly did bring up your position that it should be nerfed. You just happened to post it in a thread that also advocated that same position. Unless you are denying that you think that Soulfire should be fixed/nerfed.


Do I think Soulfire's will get nerfed... absolutely not. Should they? In my opinion, yes. To me the game should be played in the way it was intended not with some over-looked mechanic.

"original intent", sounds like you need to roll a custom server. Fix hybrid penalties, feign death pulling, clickies, recharging, etc.

Clerics were made to CH raids.

Are you sure about that? Following your opinion that "the game should be played in the way it was intended" you should remove the spell complete heal.

Soulfires/Donals BP's etc break cleric and raid mechanics. If you want autobot clerics you mine as well bring in Merc's from Live. Donal heals were nerfed on live because of the negative effect on the raid scence demonstrated by guilds using them to heal. It is highly doubtful raid guilds were using SoulFire CH spam to heal in Velious. If you say they did... prove it.

Why do I need to prove anything? Soulfire is currently implemented as it should be. The burden of proof is on you my good man.

So clerics were made to CH raids, but then you pass it off as autobots/mercs? Which is it? With Donals or without, EQ classic unfortunately makes clerics use CH chains.

Donal's BP is already reported and set up for patching within the proper timeline.


You can be a classic supporter without being an idiot.

Ad hominem you know better than that Alarti, come on.


Just because something is "classic" doesn't mean its a good idea or even valid. i.e Hybrid exp penalties... just stupid.

That isn't the goal of this server. EQ was brutal in its time sinks and some mechanics and itemization.. This server needs/should take the good with the bad.

Why not roll a custom server for yourself with EQ in your vision?

[arsenalpow]

There will be no swarm. Some of us play this game for reasons other than loot.

[Ele]

I'm for nerfing Soulfires. I agree that it wasn't within the 'vision' of the game to Soulfire mobs down. Just like hooping mobs down, shit is dumb.

But if we're gonna go that route, you'll also need to fix:
-epics at level 1
-training in VP
-sub level 59/60 people in VP
-recharging items
-donals bp
-monks split pulling
-swam kiting
-all powerleveling techniques

etc etc

Don't forget: manastone, guise of the deceiver, multiquesting, complete heal!

[khanable]

Don't forget: manastone, guise of the deceiver, multiquesting, complete heal!

-epics at level 1
-training in VP
-sub level 59/60 people in VP
-recharging items
-donals bp
-monks split pulling
-swam kiting
-all powerleveling techniques
-manastones (especially with donals bp combo)
-guise
-multiquesting
-cheal
-key corpses in sky
-skipping islands in sky
-paladins sucking
-clicky aggro mechanics
-puppet strings solo kills
-soulfire/other click cheal
-twinking (fungis etc)

Anything else?


I, for one, will play Project Alarti: IntentQuest

[Alarti0001]

Why dodge my question and raise a bunch of strawmen? You certainly did bring up your position that it should be nerfed. You just happened to post it in a thread that also advocated that same position. Unless you are denying that you think that Soulfire should be fixed/nerfed.

You implied i waited 2 years to bring up an issue. I told you I didn't bring up the issue I just supported it. This demonstrates apathy not malice. I also don't sit around thinking about what should or shouldn't be fixed about p99 all day. I thought about this subject and came to a conclusion.

"original intent", sounds like you need to roll a custom server. Fix hybrid penalties, feign death pulling, clickies, recharging, etc.

Psssst. Ele this is a custom server.

Are you sure about that? Following your opinion that "the game should be played in the way it was intended" you should remove the spell complete heal.

Really... lol. Please post that in passing dev comment as evidence i'd be glad to dissect it for you

Why do I need to prove anything? Soulfire is currently implemented as it should be. The burden of proof is on you my good man.

I agree soulfire is implemented as it was in classic. I would disagree as to whether it should be implemented the same way here. In case you missed it I am implying that the only reason it went un-noticed and never got nerfed was because no raiding guild were using it like they used Donals.

So clerics were made to CH raids, but then you pass it off as autobots/mercs? Which is it? With Donals or without, EQ classic unfortunately makes clerics use CH chains.

Heard of a limiting factor called mana?

Donal's BP is already reported and set up for patching within the proper timeline.

Good?


Ad hominem you know better than that Alarti, come on.

Actually, this wasn't. It was a statement of truth and wasn't directed at a particular person.


That isn't the goal of this server. EQ was brutal in its time sinks and some mechanics and itemization.. This server needs/should take the good with the bad.

I think there are smarter choices then this. What is the good value you get from having paladins level 40% slower than others or for allowing Soulfires to heal a raid? Other than "its classic" of course.

Why not roll a custom server for yourself with EQ in your vision?

Why don't you. This server is certainly not your vision. You want to fight for your cause.. why deny others theirs?

[Alarti0001]

L2read

Are you coherent?

"if you are not trying to deny VP keys, why are you selling keys for as much as epic pieces? Why do you not hand them out to players in the zone? Why do you not announce they are there and whoever wants them can come loot them?"

[Gaffin Deeppockets]

Dumb thread.

[SCB]

You show yourself in the foot there. Key phrase... "as classic as possible", debating what is possible in a current context is a viable concept. Saying no simply because soulfire were usable in classic does not demonstrate proper thinking. I love how you quote your own interpretation of a phrase and then deem everyone should use that.

Maybe you should learn about rhetoric and fallacy beyond a wiki page haha.

"As classic as possible" is because of client/tech limitations. It's also not my interpretation, it's the stated purpose of the server.

I lurk these forums a lot, and always knew you were not very smart just from your post history, but Jesus man, seriously? You post here as if it were your job, so shouldn't you at least put in a modicum of effort at it?

[pharmakos]

Anyway I'm out of this discussion. I really think I need to delete my forum account and stop wasting time here.

<3 loraen

plz don't, you're a voice of reason around here, this board has a bad enough signal:noise ratio as it is.

[Bantam 1]

Alarti -

Ele is fighting for the stated purpose of the server. Agree or disagree; it really doesn't matter since that's what this particular server is about.

I think that's what you're missing. This isn't a matter of "should". They should fix rangers too and add AA's... but they won't. They aren't making a BETTER Everquest experience they are trying to relive the original.

[Alarti0001]

"As classic as possible" is because of client/tech limitations. It's also not my interpretation, it's the stated purpose of the server.

I lurk these forums a lot, and always knew you were not very smart just from your post history, but Jesus man, seriously? You post here as if it were your job, so shouldn't you at least put in a modicum of effort at it?

LOL.... This ^^ is what happens when you run out of intelligible arguments.

"The mission of the project is to create the classic feeling that many had during the early days of Everquest during those time periods, starting with Classic content and releasing the other expansions and content on a similar timeline that was experienced on Live."

I bet many people didn't experience classic content with Soulfire raids

[Kinsawt]

They are trying to make a 100% classical server within reason, exceptions being made for overpowered bugs/abuse of mechanics.

You couldn't levitate in Sky here, you could in classic. That isn't something that is technically/mechanically out of their league. But levitating in Sky allows you to abuse the intent of the zone.

You couldn't use the level 56 rez bug here to power level characters to 60. All that took was a 56 cleric and someone with harmony.

You can't give pets no-drop weapons.

You can't give NPC's weapons to use.

All of these were "classic" and easily implemented/removed, so are many others, but they were changed in order to give some legitimacy to the raid scene of the server. The same way they nerfed Mage pets once guilds started sending 30 mages up to Plane of Sky, the way they already nerfed DA agro although that was a Velious change, the way they nerfed Ivandyr's hoops; this kind of action isn't unprecedented on this server.

IB just happens to fall in the same boat as TMO on this issue, we want content to be hard, not trivialized by killing a lvl 52 mob in Freeport, or having 15 lvl 46 clerics running a 1.2 second CH cycle.

[Alarti0001]

Alarti -

Ele is fighting for the stated purpose of the server. Agree or disagree; it really doesn't matter since that's what this particular server is about.

I think that's what you're missing. This isn't a matter of "should". They should fix rangers too and add AA's... but they won't. They aren't making a BETTER Everquest experience they are trying to relive the original.

Like all things in life very little is black and white. I think ele is fighting for his opinion of what the server should be. In large part his opinion matches with the Dev team. I also thing the dev team must disagree with him in some regard for non-classic mechanics like Variance, and FTE shouts to become active.

[Alarti0001]

They are trying to make a 100% classical server within reason, exceptions being made for overpowered bugs/abuse of mechanics.

You couldn't levitate in Sky here, you could in classic. That isn't something that is technically/mechanically out of their league. But levitating in Sky allows you to abuse the intent of the zone.

You couldn't use the level 56 rez bug here to power level characters to 60. All that took was a 56 cleric and someone with harmony.

You can't give pets no-drop weapons.

You can't give NPC's weapons to use.

All of these were "classic" and easily implemented/removed, so are many others, but they were changed in order to give some legitimacy to the raid scene of the server. The same way they nerfed Mage pets once guilds started sending 30 mages up to Plane of Sky, the way they already nerfed DA agro although that was a Velious change, the way they nerfed Ivandyr's hoops; this kind of action isn't unprecedented on this server.

IB just happens to fall in the same boat as TMO on this issue, we want content to be hard, not trivialized by killing a lvl 52 mob in Freeport, or having 15 lvl 46 clerics running a 1.2 second CH cycle.

TMO/IB alliance to keep Lucan on Lockdown? LOL :D

[Kinsawt]

Between us and Dark Ascenson we held down the High Keep DA Idol camp 24/7 for what? 4 weeks?

[SCB]

LOL.... This ^^ is what happens when you run out of intelligible arguments.

"The mission of the project is to create the classic feeling that many had during the early days of Everquest during those time periods, starting with Classic content and releasing the other expansions and content on a similar timeline that was experienced on Live."

I bet many people didn't experience classic content with Soulfire raids


http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=677&tbm=isch&tbnid=YbHfties4mV6zM:&imgrefurl=http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D86434%26page%3D2&docid=v9A3241biACMUM&itg=1&imgurl=http://i.imgur.com/0MDiy.jpg&w=647&h=485&ei=W4rtUfOELq3G4AO5yoDYDw&zoom=1&ved=1t:3588,r:32,s:0,i:184&iact=rc&page=2&tbnh=177&tbnw=207&start=18&ndsp=24&tx=96&ty=42

I don't know how to Classic Forumquest so enjoy your link instead of embed.

[Nirgon]

Freeport guards and Sergeant Slate are way too easy to kill.

[Nirgon]

And sorry guys but go farm Soulfires

[Hawala]

SoulFire is obviously an abuse of classic mechanics. I don't for one second believe it was the intention of the developers for every class to have the ability to complete heal.

[falkun]

I bet many people didn't experience classic content with Soulfire raids

I bet many people didn't experience classic content in PBAoE groups either, nor full L60 only raids, nor a bunch of other differences. The quoted statement has to do with non-classic environment, not non-classic mechanics. The mechanics are classic here, but the environment is non-classic due to the extended time in Kunark and, more importantly, the internet-dickwad theorem.

[pharmakos]

SoulFire is obviously an abuse of classic mechanics. I don't for one second believe it was the intention of the developers for every class to have the ability to complete heal.

there's lots of stuff the developers didn't intend.

biggest and most common example is Feign Death splitting/pulling mobs to a camp.

they originally envisioned that groups would move through dungeons as a unit.

therefore, developer intentions isn't a solid argument.

leaves no room for creative use of game mechanics, and leads to a boring game IMO

[fastboy21]

there's lots of stuff the developers didn't intend.

biggest and most common example is Feign Death splitting/pulling mobs to a camp.

they originally envisioned that groups would move through dungeons as a unit.

therefore, developer intentions isn't a solid argument.

leaves no room for creative use of game mechanics, and leads to a boring game IMO

It all comes down to what you believe is classic. Being classic isn't all about just making all the game mechanics exactly as they were in live era kunark.

[Frieza_Prexus]

It all comes down to what you believe is classic. Being classic isn't all about just making all the game mechanics exactly as they were in live era kunark.

Well said, but the issue between classic and not classic and what to do about it is really blurred by the emergent gameplay both here and on live. Where we should land on the "what to do about it question" is up for debate, and there's not a perfect answer. No matter what is done in any particular situation, both sides for or against a particular change can validly jump up and down while screaming not classic. It's almost a complete impasse. I think the most reasonable situation is what I mentioned earlier which Falkun echoed (though I think he misread my post; I was agreeing with you!). All classic mechanics should be reproduced in their entirety, and changes should be made only under two circumstances:

1) It's an obvious bug or unintended/emergent gameplay that does NOT add value to the game then (1999), or now. Examples being the Paladin epic 1 million damage dot, the Wavecrasher bug, and being able to forage dropped loot in certain zones. All of these are clear-cut situations where the developers intent would be ascertainable with almost absolute certainty had they known of the issue at the time.

OR

2) The problem here is such that it effectively prevents any modicum of classic EQ, and to leave the situation as it is would render the situation more non-classic than it would otherwise be.

These are both very difficult standards, you either have to know with 99% certainty what the Devs would have done, or you have to prove extreme detriment to the gameplay of the server. Note that the standard is the gameplay and not the effect it has on the interactions of players. These are both rare and difficult situations that can occur, but should be met with caution. That's why I think that there is a presumption that the server should strictly adhere to the timeline, and that any deviation must first overcome a presumption that strict adherence is in the server's best interest.

Many of the supposed problems are not really problems at all. For example, SoulFire is currently used in two fights: Trak and VS. Trak is, in my opinion, not at issue because of the SoulFires. Sure, they help, but pulling off a Trak kill that otherwise wouldn't happen without them is actually a very rare and specific circumstance. SoulFire is also used to tank VS while your crew assembles. VS doesn't proc often enough in my opinion, and that fix would be more than enough to make SF tanking that much more difficult. SoulFire wouldn't be as much of an issue if the server were more classic ironically.

Might SoulFire one day be a problem? Absolutely, it could perhaps trivialize some gameplay, then again perhaps not. However, no matter what happens, the burden to change it is on the ones requesting it. That burden has yet to be met in this particular case.

[khanable]

Well said, but the issue between classic and not classic and what to do about it is really blurred by the emergent gameplay both here and on live. Where we should land on the "what to do about it question" is up for debate, and there's not a perfect answer. No matter what is done in any particular situation, both sides for or against a particular change can validly jump up and down while screaming not classic. It's almost a complete impasse. I think the most reasonable situation is what I mentioned earlier which Falkun echoed (though I think he misread my post; I was agreeing with you!). All classic mechanics should be reproduced in their entirety, and changes should be made only under two circumstances:

1) It's an obvious bug or unintended/emergent gameplay that does NOT add value to the game then (1999), or now. Examples being the Paladin epic 1 million damage dot, the Wavecrasher bug, and being able to forage dropped loot in certain zones. All of these are clear-cut situations where the developers intent would be ascertainable with almost absolute certainty had they known of the issue at the time.

OR

2) The problem here is such that it effectively prevents any modicum of classic EQ, and to leave the situation as it is would render the situation more non-classic than it would otherwise be.

These are both very difficult standards, you either have to know with 99% certainty what the Devs would have done, or you have to prove extreme detriment to the gameplay of the server. Note that the standard is the gameplay and not the effect it has on the interactions of players. These are both rare and difficult situations that can occur, but should be met with caution. That's why I think that there is a presumption that the server should strictly adhere to the timeline, and that any deviation must first overcome a presumption that strict adherence is in the server's best interest.

Many of the supposed problems are not really problems at all. For example, SoulFire is currently used in two fights: Trak and VS. Trak is, in my opinion, not at issue because of the SoulFires. Sure, they help, but pulling off a Trak kill that otherwise wouldn't happen without them is actually a very rare and specific circumstance. SoulFire is also used to tank VS while your crew assembles. VS doesn't proc often enough in my opinion, and that fix would be more than enough to make SF tanking that much more difficult. SoulFire wouldn't be as much of an issue if the server were more classic ironically.

Might SoulFire one day be a problem? Absolutely, it could perhaps trivialize some gameplay, then again perhaps not. However, no matter what happens, the burden to change it is on the ones requesting it. That burden has yet to be met in this particular case.

Hold the horn

There was a point in time where the Paladin epic was bugged and would do a 1 million damage dot?

what

[Frieza_Prexus]

Hold the horn

There was a point in time where the Paladin epic was bugged and would do a 1 million damage dot?

what

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001121.html]
Fixed the Paladin Epic Quest reward, which was procing a spell that would do around one million points of damage if left to its own devices

[Samoht]

Might SoulFire one day be a problem? Absolutely, it could perhaps trivialize some gameplay, then again perhaps not. However, no matter what happens, the burden to change it is on the ones requesting it. That burden has yet to be met in this particular case.

you're wrong because

1) It's an obvious bug or unintended/emergent gameplay that does NOT add value to the game then (1999), or now. Examples being the Paladin epic 1 million damage dot, the Wavecrasher bug, and being able to forage dropped loot in certain zones. All of these are clear-cut situations where the developers intent would be ascertainable with almost absolute certainty had they known of the issue at the time.

soulfire was eventually changed to only work for paladins. it just wasn't in the timeline of this server (post luclin), and i would assume that's because the abuse didn't become blatant until then.

there are a lot of situations here where it's completely trivializing encounters to the point where bringing a healer is optional. people like tecmos are blowing thousands of plat to solo content that otherwise wouldn't be remotely possible without use of things like soulfire.

soulfire is clearly being abused here and should be nerfed in advance of the timeline.

shit's only going to get worse in velius.

[khanable]

http://www.tski.co.jp/baldio/patch/20001121.html]

Paladins not classic

I demand classic paladin 1 million damage epic

[Frieza_Prexus]

shit's only going to get worse in velius.

Some of the smartest players had already quested SoulFires for themselves many times during Velious. Furor brought it to the front of the discussion when he had one the first time he tanked down the AoW and posted about it.

I agree that it's being abused, but I'm not certain that the abuse is so clear cut that it absolutely demands a nerf. The only real use I see for it in Velious is that it'll be used in tank transitions. Even then, if things go bad on a really nasty fight it'll eat a lot of charges, and each guild will be limited in its use of the item.

It's possible, that it will need a nerf; I do not contest that. However, all that has been presented so far is conjecture. There as been very little in-depth analysis of where and how it will be used to give an unprecedented and unfair advantage in a way that demands a change.

[Ele]

If people want to spend their time farming Soulfires while Velious content is out, more power to them I say.

[Samoht]

If people want to spend their time farming Soulfires while Velious content is out, more power to them I say.

what's so hard about the quest? a new soulfire enters circulation around every 12 hours. how many more can be made between now and velius?

[fastboy21]

If people want to spend their time farming Soulfires while Velious content is out, more power to them I say.

One of the problems with the emerging game play on p1999 is that you have all the time in the world to do stuff like this.

I'm not suggesting that it is necessarily a problem (or, if it is a problem that I have a solution for it) but the slow (and eventually) static nature of the server makes these types of things play out differently than they did on live.

[Ele]

what's so hard about the quest? a new soulfire enters circulation around every 12 hours. how many more can be made between now and velius?

Nothing, just a time sink and some running around once you have the faction. Probably hundreds, but limited to one per character. People can stack up reapers of the dead though. However, once you use it, then it needs to be quested again. I really don't see people burning through these each week for Velious mobs and being able to recoup an entire raid's worth by the next raid.

Might the first week see a burn through of content? Sure. Same thing happened on Fippy/Vulak. People are prepared and ready and know where to go.

These issues will be lessened on a fresh server with proper timeline.

[fastboy21]

These issues will be lessened on a fresh server with proper timeline.


Exactly. However, no such server or plans for one exists.

[Ele]

One of the problems with the emerging game play on p1999 is that you have all the time in the world to do stuff like this.

I'm not suggesting that it is necessarily a problem (or, if it is a problem that I have a solution for it) but the slow (and eventually) static nature of the server makes these types of things play out differently than they did on live.

I don't disagree with any of that. However, I view this from the PoV that the current server is basically an extended beta and once Velious is worked out a fresh server with proper timeline will be ready to go and have substantially automated patching/releases.

We'll see the real pros on on a fresh server with proper timeline.

[Nirgon]

I've tried to tell you people that things like manastones being removed from planes are different than item recharging and million damage paladin epic proc

But there's no listening

Only dumb

[pharmakos]

Paladins not classic

I demand classic paladin 1 million damage epic

[Nirgon]

dumb

[mtb tripper]

dumb

nirgon what happened to stossel avatar

[Splorf22]

I couldn't resist taking another look at this thread and then I just couldn't resist scoring a few hundred more easy forumquest points at Alarti's expense.

Sure. Soulfire insta click. Donals not insta click--but I agree should be nerfed.

NERF JBOOTS! /smack

Obviously what matters is not the casting time but what you can do with the item/mechanic vs without, which is why I gave those examples of other items/mechanics allowing you do things that the vision squad at Verant would probably not approve of.

Also, what does a level of game-breaking have to do with anything?

Are you serious? Your whole argument is that soulfire is gamebreaking. Pretty much everyone in this thread has been trying to explain to you that there are many other mechanics that were fixed later that have an even larger effect.

Are puppet strings going to get you Velious kills? Kunark is done. Its been broken for years. My focus is on the future.

Are there <= L51 charmable mobs in Velious? You say there are tons in Kael? I mean where do you come up with this stuff. And while I'm at it:

There will be no swarm. Some of us play this game for reasons other than loot.

There are a lot of reasons to try to zerg down the Avatar of War, but rolling against 40 other warriors for a 15/23 blade with no proc is not one of them.

[Nirgon]

nirgon what happened to stossel avatar
We all went to dental school

[Tasslehofp99]

You're all talking about nerfing an item that is used to kill mobs with less people than the competition uses. Why make things harder for non-zerg guilds, especially when the mechanic you're speaking about nerfing was already proven to have happened post-p99 timeline?

[Kender]

could aways make lucan back to a 7 day spawn with a petition option to gms to spawn him earlier for genuine pally epic questers

not ideal and not classic, but neither was raid FTE shouts, extended variance, and hoop nerf

[Alarti0001]

I couldn't resist taking another look at this thread and then I just couldn't resist scoring a few hundred more easy forumquest points at Alarti's expense.



NERF JBOOTS! /smack

Obviously what matters is not the casting time but what you can do with the item/mechanic vs without, which is why I gave those examples of other items/mechanics allowing you do things that the vision squad at Verant would probably not approve of.



Are you serious? Your whole argument is that soulfire is gamebreaking. Pretty much everyone in this thread has been trying to explain to you that there are many other mechanics that were fixed later that have an even larger effect.



Are there <= L51 charmable mobs in Velious? You say there are tons in Kael? I mean where do you come up with this stuff. And while I'm at it:



There are a lot of reasons to try to zerg down the Avatar of War, but rolling against 40 other warriors for a 15/23 blade with no proc is not one of them.

I love that you think you made even one point. Please talk more about Jboots nerf.
Derp.

[falkun]

Whats with TMO whining lately? Someone uses SoulFires besides TMO and its "Unclassic nerf now!" Someone is (likely) duping items only TMO has legitimately looted in months and its "Rogean conspiracy theory!" Why does TMO care so much about what other people do? TMO sounds incredibly butt-hurt right now because its not all about them, grow up. Weren't you guys teenagers/adults back on Fennin? Shouldn't you be older now, 10 years later?

[Alarti0001]

Whats with TMO whining lately? Someone uses SoulFires besides TMO and its "Unclassic nerf now!" Someone is (likely) duping items only TMO has legitimately looted in months and its "Rogean conspiracy theory!" Why does TMO care so much about what other people do? TMO sounds incredibly butt-hurt right now because its not all about them, grow up. Weren't you guys teenagers/adults back on Fennin? Shouldn't you be older now, 10 years later?

ITT Whines about his perception of TMO whining.

[Fazlazen]

to the guy who said marginal upgrades from kunark to velious, you obviously don't know shit about this game.

[Splorf22]

to the guy who said marginal upgrades from kunark to velious, you obviously don't know shit about this game.

I better be able to upgrade my Rod of Annihilation!

in b4 penis jokes

[koros]

Staff of the silent star!

(No RoA would still probably win)