Why is training allowed on p99 in veeshan's peak? (poll asking your opinion)

[Nietche]

I like when Tasslehof continues to repeat the same wrong information over and over again.

I also like that people in this thread think it's TMO's fault that griefers exist in VP.

I lastly like that people in this thread think that TMO are the ones who are griefing other guilds in VP who are genuinely trying to engage a dragon with a legitimate raid force.

[Tasslehofp99]

I like when Tasslehof continues to repeat the same wrong information over and over again.

I also like that people in this thread think it's TMO's fault that griefers exist in VP.

I lastly like that people in this thread think that TMO are the ones who are griefing other guilds in VP who are genuinely trying to engage a dragon with a legitimate raid force.

No one has been in VP for like the last year besides TMO, unless you count the few weeks FE spent testing the waters.

What wrong information am I continuing to post?

Training was never allowed on live, this is a fact. Only the most dense people reading through this thread have not yet realized that. P99's Training rules in VP are not connected to VP being a non-CSR zone on live EQ servers.

Also -- Are you trying to say that if another guild zoned into VP that TMO would not train their raid? because otherwise, TMO is the only guild griefing anyone. Aside from 1-2 monks who sit in VP to train TMO on occasion for shits and giggles because, fuck it, the rules allow for it...so why not? If your guild trains, we are going to train.

I've already sent PM's to zeelot asking him to reconsider his stance of TMO training in VP. Tiggles responded for him only by offering to let other guilds attempt VP dragons(excluding PD) if we would let TMO have Trakanon kills uncontested. Why not just offer up some trial period of a few weeks without training in VP instead? It may even be more fun than the current situation there.

[Alarti0001]

Also -- Are you trying to say that if another guild zoned into VP that TMO would not train their raid? because otherwise, TMO is the only guild griefing anyone. Aside from 1-2 monks who sit in VP to train TMO on occasion for shits and giggles because, fuck it, the rules allow for it...so why not? If your guild trains, we are going to train.



Did you mean to contradict yourself in the same paragraph here, or was it your other personality.

[salimoneus]

1) No I'm not keyed for VP, yet. If that bothers you, I guess I really don't care.
2) Create an alliance of sorts and be in a position to contend for VP
3) Put this shit on a stream somewhere because I want to watch

Generally, living by the "if you can't beat em, change the rules" motto is weak ass at best. Give TMO a reason to sit down to the table, until then why should they give a shit.

I don't think P99 has the resources available to babysit VP full time with nonstop petitions. No it's not classic, but this server isn't intended to be an EXACT replica of classic. They try the best they can with the resources available. The comparisons being made to classic with regards to this are pretty much meaningless.

[Verenity]

I like when Tasslehof continues to repeat the same wrong information over and over again.

I also like that people in this thread think it's TMO's fault that griefers exist in VP.

I lastly like that people in this thread think that TMO are the ones who are griefing other guilds in VP who are genuinely trying to engage a dragon with a legitimate raid force.

Please ask your guild what happened when BDA legitimately made attempts on VP dragons about a year ago. In the spirit of saving time, multiple TMO trainers made sure to not only make sure we couldn't kill it, but also made our CR a living hell. Nothing I have ever experienced in this game could match the frustration of realizing that a couple individuals had nothing better to do with their lives than ruin the nights of a handful of others.

[kotton05]

you guys have no clue the endless hours myself and others on my side put into killing tmo in vp. literally our only hope was to train them till they gave up or passed out and then batphone. necrious is a boss not sure how he was on all that time, darkdeath prolly best trainer on tmo's side, when ever they pathed nexona thru the walls onto us he always lived long enough to get 2 aoe's off while others only got 1 off.

I saw other classes train even moreso than FD classes, lets take a shaman for instance!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hoshkar has an aoe slow dot..... shaman tags, gets aoe'd casts torpor then OMG WTF IS THIS can run at sow speed while torpor'd with hosh's dot on themself>.<

haha

[radditsu]

1) No I'm not keyed for VP, yet. If that bothers you, I guess I really don't care.
2) Create an alliance of sorts and be in a position to contend for VP
3) Put this shit on a stream somewhere because I want to watch

Generally, living by the "if you can't beat em, change the rules" motto is weak ass at best. Give TMO a reason to sit down to the table, until then why should they give a shit.

I don't think P99 has the resources available to babysit VP full time with nonstop petitions. No it's not classic, but this server isn't intended to be an EXACT replica of classic. They try the best they can with the resources available. The comparisons being made to classic with regards to this are pretty much meaningless.

Hundreds upon hundreds of hours, at least, have been put into to get them to the table. Someone needs to post the only guild summit to happen. Where they basically ask when velious is coming out then hanging up. There is simply too much emotional daddytouchedme damage going on.


Besides this point. Training in vp is a pvp rule on a blue server. In a zone that has had csr rulings in a non-csr zone(see amelinda). AND any fte disputes are now resolved with the shouts. Any training should have the same buden of proof as in a fear raid....where it is also a frequent issue. It is hardly enforced in those situations....however the spectre of threat is there

[MaksimMazor]

There are no FTE shouts in VP

[radditsu]

There are no FTE shouts in VP

There should be! It would support my assertion!

[Tasslehofp99]

There are no FTE shouts in VP

Lame.


Bump, lets end sanctioned training asap.

[Nietche]

Did you mean to contradict yourself (Tasslehof) in the same paragraph here, or was it your other personality.

Please ask your guild what happened when BDA legitimately made attempts on VP dragons about a year ago. In the spirit of saving time, multiple TMO trainers made sure to not only make sure we couldn't kill it, but also made our CR a living hell. Nothing I have ever experienced in this game could match the frustration of realizing that a couple individuals had nothing better to do with their lives than ruin the nights of a handful of others.

BDA literally brought this on themselves. You want sympathy? Your leadership probably should have thought of that before inviting 150 of the douchiest people on the server (once IB left to EQMAC), then thought twice about trying to influence certain GM's to make some of the dumbest, unfair decisions in the game which overtly favored VDA.

You want to blame someone? Blame Shinko and his ilk for instigating a fight with TMO under the BDA tag (by being douche bags every chance they got) and thus obliterating your guild, "good guy" reputation on the server (collectively). People who were already BDA before the VD-merger are hella' responsible as well. People in top leadership positions hate TMO so much that they wouldn't even accept a verbal "helping hand" in killing Gore an eon ago. No, they wanted war and had hoped that the numbers from VD would enable said war, even if in a "bluebie sense."

Hundreds upon hundreds of hours, at least, have been put into to get them to the table. Someone needs to post the only guild summit to happen. Where they basically ask when velious is coming out then hanging up. There is simply too much emotional daddytouchedme damage going on.

Learn to compete legitimately before asking for a summit. Until that time, whether you want it or not, it sounds as if you want a handout.

Any training should have the same buden of proof as in a fear raid....where it is also a frequent issue. It is hardly enforced in those situations....however the spectre of threat is there

The burden of proof for training in VP is far more difficult to achieve than in any other zone in the game currently. Guilds train themselves in VP due to arbitrary pathing issues (such as mobs going through walls sometimes and sometimes not) quite often. GM's would never sleep trying to figure out if an "unintentional train" by a guild should be considered "intentional" because it happened to kill off another guild or whether or not it was intentional in the first place. In the former case, then GM's would be asked to allow the guild who was killed a shot at the dragon even though the train was technically unintentional.

Etc.

TL;DR: Bunch of babies crying. Man up.

[radditsu]

BDA literally brought this on themselves. You want sympathy? Your leadership probably should have thought of that before inviting 150 of the douchiest people on the server (once IB left to EQMAC), then thought twice about trying to influence certain GM's to make some of the dumbest, unfair decisions in the game which overtly favored VDA.

You want to blame someone? Blame Shinko and his ilk for instigating a fight with TMO under the BDA tag (by being douche bags every chance they got) and thus obliterating your guild, "good guy" reputation on the server (collectively). People who were already BDA before the VD-merger are hella' responsible as well. People in top leadership positions hate TMO so much that they wouldn't even accept a verbal "helping hand" in killing Gore an eon ago. No, they wanted war and had hoped that the numbers from VD would enable said war, even if in a "bluebie sense."



Learn to compete legitimately before asking for a summit. Until that time, whether you want it or not, it sounds as if you want a handout.



The burden of proof for training in VP is far more difficult to achieve than in any other zone in the game currently. Guilds train themselves in VP due to arbitrary pathing issues (such as mobs going through walls sometimes and sometimes not) quite often. GM's would never sleep trying to figure out if an "unintentional train" by a guild should be considered "intentional" because it happened to kill off another guild or whether or not it was intentional in the first place. In the former case, then GM's would be asked to allow the guild who was killed a shot at the dragon even though the train was technically unintentional.

Etc.

TL;DR: Bunch of babies crying. Man up.


I would assume they would spend as much time as they do now. Almost none. Just like any enforcement thats not rmt, mq or dual boxing. How overt did that gorg kite have to be.

It is still a poor rule. I can forgive uneven enforcement. ... it happens all the time.

[Raavak]

When IB (the original) and TMO contested VP they came to a stalemate and put in some peace agreements between them. VD/BDA/FE are missing a part of the solution to the equation. Giving up and crying about it two years later is pathetic. You have more than enough keys. I seriously suggest, instead, you review and modify your tactics.

[Verenity]

I am not asking for sympathy nor am I crying, I am just pointing out how ridiculously wrong the paragraph I quoted from you was. Don't act like training people in VP is something TMO will not do immediately and without regret.

[timhutton]

When IB (the original) and TMO contested VP they came to a stalemate and put in some peace agreements between them. VD/BDA/FE are missing a part of the solution to the equation. Giving up and crying about it two years later is pathetic. You have more than enough keys. I seriously suggest, instead, you review and modify your tactics.

Translation: become a pain in our ass like past guilds have been, and then we will consider taking you seriously. We have no intention of working with you as adults until you've already backed us into a corner by sinking to our level and wallowing in shit like we do.

Edit: It's worth noting the logical fallacy in why any guild willing to sink to that level and be such a pain in TMO's side would have ANY interest in discussing things adult-like with them as opposed to either running them into the ground even further at that point.

By the time TMO is willing to talk with anyone, whoever it was that they've been competing with will have so much hate and spite built up for them they would rather just land a finishing blow than work something out. Otherwise what's the point in trying in the first place.

[Raavak]

Don't act like training people in VP is something TMO will not do immediately and without regret.Years of membluring dragons so they CHeal and training raids with no intent to actual kill a dragon in VP has desensitized even the most sympathetic member of TMO to your plight.

[timhutton]

Years of membluring dragons so they CHeal and training raids with no intent to actual kill a dragon in VP has desensitized even the most sympathetic member of TMO to your plight.

Years? Membluring lasted a couple of months.

[Raavak]

god that chick is hot

[falkun]

Years of membluring dragons so they CHeal and training raids (period) has desensitized even the most sympathetic member of the rest of the server to your plight.
What a broad statement you make.

@Neitche: that koolaid sure is tasty. Also, you and Rakpartha are talking passed each other here. Rakpartha says 'douchebaggery doesn't make us want to work with you' and you are saying 'turn into a douchebag and "compete" or don't bother coming to the table.' Which is it?

[Ele]

god that chick is hot

The Internet is a big world, don't limit your choices :(

[Raavak]

The Internet is a big world, don't limit your choices :(When my daughter is watching Disney, Choo Choo Sex is all the choice I get.

And I don't speak for Nietche, he is more than capable of speaking for himself. And of course I don't speak for TMO, but I am a voice of one of the regular members who has been around a while. We spent many hours attempting pulls, recovering from trains, recovering from trained CRs, etc. It accomplished one thing... hardened our determination. It also made us care less when people complain about getting "a fair share".

[Alarti0001]

Years? Membluring lasted a couple of months.

In game years

[Nietche]

and you are saying 'turn into a douchebag or don't bother coming to the table.' Which is it?

Wat?

[kaev]

Poll is flawed. After reading thread it is clear that a third option is necessary:
"I've got no dog in this hunt (because I could never be so cruel to my dog.)"

[Tasslehofp99]

The response to this poll is astounding, in my opinion. But maybe I'm just biased because I feel that this is an important discussion.

A major theme I've noticed is people's unwillingness to bury the past and move forward for the greater good of the server.

[Alarti0001]

The response to this poll is astounding, in my opinion. But maybe I'm just biased because I feel that this is an important discussion.

A major theme I've noticed is people's unwillingness to bury the past and move forward for the greater good of the server.

Irony defined

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Training or PvP.
The people screaming neither are either
1. Noob or
2. just want to see sleeper woken so they can quit , so fuck them.
Make VP/Sleepers PvP if people want to bitch about training.
Fuck training imo its the worse way to kill others BUT it is the only way to protect the sleeper unless. You make these zones PvP an it would be a lot better and a lot more fun.
But neither is the worse way to go, NO train + NO PvP = Sleeper woken and a ton of drama mixed in.
Staff (at the least Sirken) would be down with PvP these zones but the community will not have it and are in to carebear mode, so enjoy the trains or beg for PvP because having neither is idiotic.
You want no training and no PvP Tassle? It will be no warders/drama in Velious if thats what you want. Or you down for PvP

[Tasslehofp99]

Training or PvP.
The people screaming neither are either
1. Noob or
2. just want to see sleeper woken so they can quit , so fuck them.
Make VP/Sleepers PvP if people want to bitch about training.
Fuck training imo its the worse way to kill others BUT it is the only way to protect the sleeper unless. You make these zones PvP an it would be a lot better and a lot more fun.
But neither is the worse way to go, NO train + NO PvP = Sleeper woken and a ton of drama mixed in.
Staff (at the least Sirken) would be down with PvP these zones but the community will not have it and are in to carebear mode, so enjoy the trains or beg for PvP because having neither is idiotic.
You want no training and no PvP Tassle? It will be no warders/drama in Velious if thats what you want. Or you down for PvP


I just want no training, but if that's the only way to ensure the sleeper isn't awoken I probably wont be playing during velious on p99 anyway. If ST was PVP flagged that may be a more viable/fun/entertaining fix to the situation. However this thread is about Veeshan's peak since velious is still a ways off.

But to say training is going to guarantee the sleeper wont be awoken? That's just stupidity and ignorance. If its already possible to derail trains in VP and take dragons down, as has been proven, then training is not going to be effective enough to prevent the waking of the sleeper anyway. If those who want to wake the sleeper are driven enough they will have 20-30 people waiting to derail any possible trains, and its possible to do so completely and indeffinetly in any zone.

The problem is training itself doesn't belong in EQ raiding. Sure, it happens occasionaly unintentional or intentionally. Its just a way for people to grief others and turn p99 into a bigger timesink than it has to be. Or as some others have stated its a form of meta-pvp or whatever you wanna call it.

We can run around this thread in circles but simply put there is no reason for sanctioned training in any zone on EQ, it wasn't permitted on live and it shouldn't be on emulated servers either. Obviously from looking at the poll numbers a good portion of people feel this way.

[quido]

Help Tasslehof get more loot - vote yes.

[Tasslehofp99]

Help Tasslehof get more loot - vote yes.

I already said if it makes TMO members feel better, I'd delete my VP key before any rule changes were enforced. This isn't about one player or one guild Jeremy. Fortunately for some(unfortunately, for others) the players don't decide the rules on this server, atleast I'd like to hope they don't.

My take on this is that once TMO's chokehold ends on kunark raid content that a new, better, ruleset should be in place so that the other guilds don't have to shit on eachother the way guilds have in the past under the current rules. That is assuming TMO is unwilling to negotiate over any new rules that are less asinine. It's fairly simple, really. I just want more a more fair set of rules which encourage competition, not discourage it.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

velious is still a ways off.

But to say training is going to guarantee the sleeper wont be awoken? That's just stupidity and ignorance. If its already possible to derail trains in VP and take dragons down, as has been proven, then training is not going to be effective enough to prevent the waking of the sleeper anyway. If those who want to wake the sleeper are driven enough they will have 20-30 people waiting to derail any possible trains, and its possible to do so completely and indeffinetly in any zone.


I am not saying training will guarantee the sleeper not being woke. I said it is a way to help protect the sleeper, so is PvP. Even though it will not 100% guarantee him not being woken, it will damn sure delay it and could very easily prevent it a lot of times. Yes it can still be woken with training, and the right amount of people set on waking it.

You are right, it is possible to derail VP trains, but has any guild came in derailed a train an got a dragon from TMO? Yes, but is rare + and it was not the best/baddest dragon in the zone. An i bet even a more rare chance of the derailed train and kill happening with it being the mean ass sleeper.

So this is on VP only. If there was no training and no PvP in VP, it would be a shit show of "accident" trains and who knows what else. A big headache for staff imo to sort out all the problems it would cause if there was No pvp No trains VP.

I agree fuck the training in VP, it does not belong, but if training IS taken out than you have to put in place PvP for those 2 zones to keep it fun/not a headache for GM. It would be a wish if that would happen.

Hopefully some higher ups are reading this and take into consideration VP and ST PvP.
It would be fun and would allow for more competition.

[Tasslehofp99]

I am not saying training will guarantee the sleeper not being woke. I said it is a way to help protect the sleeper, so is PvP. Even though it will not 100% guarantee him not being woken, it will damn sure delay it and could very easily prevent it a lot of times. Yes it can still be woken with training, and the right amount of people set on waking it.

So this is on VP only. You are right, it is possible to derail VP trains, but has any guild came in derailed a train an got a dragon from TMO? Yes, but rare. If there was no training and no PvP in VP, it would be a shit show of "accident" trains and who knows what else. A big headache for staff imo to sort out all the problems it would cause No pvp No trains.

I agree fuck the training in VP, it does not belong, but if training IS taken out THAN put in place PvP for those 2 zones only. It would be a wish/great if that would happen.

Hopefully some higher ups are reading this and take into consideration VP and ST PvP.
It would be fun and would allow for more competition.

If it had to come down to PVP flagging VP/ST or allowing training, I would certainly vote PVP. Training is way less difficult to do and boring as hell for the folks who aren't necessarily "trainers" or whatever.

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

If it had to come down to PVP flagging VP/ST or allowing training, I would certainly vote PVP. Training is way less difficult to do and boring as hell for the folks who aren't necessarily "trainers" or whatever.
I agree 100% and would also vote PvP. It is not fun at all if your not the one training, an PvP would add a huge/fun part to our server.

Maybe after this poll is done Tasslehof , you will start up a PvP ST Thread or ST/VP even if want. I would like to see everyones take on that. An will vote.

[Raavak]

A major theme I've noticed is people's unwillingness to bury the past and move forward for the greater good of the server.One person's definition of "greater good" differs from another.

Choo Choo on this!
http://gdurl.com/Nfdw

[Langrisser]

who the fuck is that tranny

[Nirgon]

Help Tasslehof get more loot - vote yes.

Ever the comic

[Rhuma7]

Its obvious the people saying the warders in ST are hard, havent ever fought them. Their a bunch of fucking pansies and can be killed very easily with NTOV gear.

[Tasslehofp99]

One person's definition of "greater good" differs from another.

Choo Choo on this!
http://gdurl.com/Nfdw

That is why I added the accompanying poll so that we can get an idea of where the players stand regarding this situation. This isn't about one player or one guild like I have said, nor is it about past shitty experiences in VP. This is about figuring out how to do away with a non-classic, shitty, rule set for veeshan's peak.

[Brut]

What's with this whole "we must have means to protect the Sleeper from being woken" nonsense anyway? The sleeper waking up is a unique server mechanic; if the server populance can't agree with each other enough to refrain from waking it up, then tough luck we all lose. The server shouldn't be designed around your fear of someone stopping the farming of SoDs until 2020.

[Tasslehofp99]

Still?

http://i275.photobucket.com/albums/jj314/daneswan/leave-britney-alone.jpg

go away troll

[radditsu]

Any PVP mechanic on a blue server is folly. Thered server is around to specifically to have slap fights over dragons.

Anyway, IB should never have trained TMO. TMO should have never have trained IB. TMO should never have trained bda/fe. FE/BDA should have never have trained TMO. VD should have never mem blurred mobs. None of this should have happend. It caused entirely too much bad blood across guilds. It is something that could have been nipped in the bud early, but TWO YEARS later still causes issues at the top of the raid scene. None of it should have happened. Everyone makes mistakes, and the server has evolved in almost every other way. This mistake should be rectified. TMO should be trying to kill VP dragons with 6 people now, instead of having 6 people run around just to train/countertrain any potential threats. I would respect TMO if they used their gear advantage/supposed player skill to do what we thought was impossible 13 years ago. Instead of griefing people using THE single most abhorrent player abuse in the game of everquest(on a blue server).

The server is blue, the rules should be consistently blue. They built the arena's for blue pvp. EQ is dog eat dog enough, especially this server, without hybrid red psuedo griefing tools. If you want to be a classic experience, be a classic experience.

[FenninEQaddict]

So what you guys are saying is high end raiding is toxic because training is allowed in VP?

Show of hands how many of you that are complaining about this have seen VP beyond on a Twitch feed or Wiki link?

How many of you think your guild could be clearing VP right now if training wasnt occuring there?

Now a show of hands on how many of you feel that endgame raiding is too toxic for you and dont want to do it?

I think once those numbers were tallied It would show a majority of the people who feel high end raiding is too toxic feel that way not because of VP but because of the way a small percent of the server treats each other where it can be seen by everyone else.

Those who say TMO or IB or FE or BDA or FC or any other raiding guild are the cause of the problems with raiding scene are probably right but its not the raiding scene itself its how you guys treat each other where people can see. Its like a really bad reality internet tv show staring politicians.

[timhutton]

Any PVP mechanic on a blue server is folly. Thered server is around to specifically to have slap fights over dragons.

Anyway, IB should never have trained TMO. TMO should have never have trained IB. TMO should never have trained bda/fe. FE/BDA should have never have trained TMO. VD should have never mem blurred mobs. None of this should have happend. It caused entirely too much bad blood across guilds. It is something that could have been nipped in the bud early, but TWO YEARS later still causes issues at the top of the raid scene. None of it should have happened. Everyone makes mistakes, and the server has evolved in almost every other way. This mistake should be rectified. TMO should be trying to kill VP dragons with 6 people now, instead of having 6 people run around just to train/countertrain any potential threats. I would respect TMO if they used their gear advantage/supposed player skill to do what we thought was impossible 13 years ago. Instead of griefing people using THE single most abhorrent player abuse in the game of everquest(on a blue server).

The server is blue, the rules should be consistently blue. They built the arena's for blue pvp. EQ is dog eat dog enough, especially this server, without hybrid red psuedo griefing tools. If you want to be a classic experience, be a classic experience.

While I agree with and understand what you're saying in regards to training, I don't think it would have worked itself out any other way, and that is the direct responsibility of both the players, and the GMs (and maybe even a little on the devs).

Ultimately, with the FFA VP rules in place and given the high-end players on this server there was NO ALTERNATIVE way the scenario was ever going to pan out, and it never will unless a rule change is implemented. There are probably 1000+ people that have characters and want to raid on this server. On any given night 300-400 of them are logged in simultaneously. There are not enough mobs available to entertain those people for 5-6 hours a night.

Why wasn't there any alternative? Why didn't someone put in a gentlemanly agreement to not train each other and be civil? Because the raid scene on this server is essentially an arms race. It always has been, and as long as resources remain scarce it always will be. Let's ignore VP for a second and use pre-VP Trakanon as an example.

For 4 months or so after Kunark launching there was only 1 guild killing Trak. As soon as a second guild showed up the escalations began. First thing that changed was the need to camp mains out at the ledge. Coth chains took far too long. Once the other guys caught on and were camping at the ledge it was time to move the ledge closer. Poop mountain became a thing. Once the other guys were on poop mountain, FTE sniping became a thing. It was all about who had the quickest jav's. Once everyone was sniping FTE it became about who can hold it the longest without dying to give their guild the most time to log in. DA tanking with FTE was born.

This same cycle of escalation has happened on mobs all throughout the game, VS, Talendor, Sev, Trak, naggy/vox/draco/fay alts etc.
The point is, in each case the players are going to escalate to the very limit that they can in order to get access to the scarce resources the mobs provide. A lot of times (DA-tanking, training) they are even bending the rules slightly and being down-right as douchey as they can in order to ensure victory.

Now back to VP, where GMs stated that it was going to be a no-csr FFA zone. There was a forced rotation that lasted for a couple of weeks. After that backstabbing training began. Another attempt at rotation was made. More training ensued. Eventually there was even ninja looting which the GMs said was a no-no or I can garuntee you would still be on the field today.

The point is, that the only thing that is going to stop the players are rules and enforcement. The fact that VP was announced as a FFA zone with training allowed means that the ONLY possible final outcome would be the players pushing it as far as possible.

That is the nature of those who raid.

[Alarti0001]

Any PVP mechanic on a blue server is folly. Thered server is around to specifically to have slap fights over dragons.

Anyway, IB should never have trained TMO. TMO should have never have trained IB. TMO should never have trained bda/fe. FE/BDA should have never have trained TMO. VD should have never mem blurred mobs. None of this should have happend. It caused entirely too much bad blood across guilds. It is something that could have been nipped in the bud early, but TWO YEARS later still causes issues at the top of the raid scene. None of it should have happened. Everyone makes mistakes, and the server has evolved in almost every other way. This mistake should be rectified. TMO should be trying to kill VP dragons with 6 people now, instead of having 6 people run around just to train/countertrain any potential threats. I would respect TMO if they used their gear advantage/supposed player skill to do what we thought was impossible 13 years ago. Instead of griefing people using THE single most abhorrent player abuse in the game of everquest(on a blue server).

The server is blue, the rules should be consistently blue. They built the arena's for blue pvp. EQ is dog eat dog enough, especially this server, without hybrid red psuedo griefing tools. If you want to be a classic experience, be a classic experience.

Training is Blue. Being able to dispel a non group member or to damage another member without a /d is Red.

[radditsu]

Training is Blue. Being able to dispel a non group member or to damage another member without a /d is Red.

unintentional training is blue.

Intentional training is a) griefing and b) a red tactic..and not even a honorable red tactic.

[Raavak]

Except for VP (and ST?)

[timhutton]

Hence this thread.

[Ele]

unintentional training is blue.

Intentional training is a) griefing and b) a red tactic..and not even a honorable red tactic.

.

[timhutton]

unintentional training is blue.

Intentional training is a) griefing and b) a red tactic..and not even a honorable red tactic.

[Raavak]

So what you guys are saying is high end raiding is toxic because training is allowed in VP?End game is toxic because there are more players than loot to go around. Its classic.

[radditsu]

I agree there are more players than loot going around. I also think that it would/could have been a great deal less toxic if a rule that allows player griefing was not put into effect. I will say again, if a guild has killed enough trakanons to gather keys for VP. They put in a sufficient amount of effort to be afforded a chance at VP mobs without griefing. The entire root of the situation in now stem's from training/douchebaggery/lawyering that went on in the past.

You have 6 months tops til Velious. Do you really think that a train war will REALLY keep the sleeper from being woken? IB was getting VP dragon kills with the trains, and that's a far worse place trash wise than sleepers. If you can find the people to do it, it will be done. You will not have a vanguard of people 24 hours/7 days a week/365 days a year to do that. IB for instance, could camp a raid force out, wait for you to kill the third warder, train the 4th on top of you, login and kill it while you recover. Good luck getting a big enough train going when 90% of your raid is down the tunnel. That stuff had a fairly long respawn time if I am not mistaken. Also, I am sure they would have counter trainers stationed at the open parts ready to pull that stuff off of you. The entire premise of keeping training in VP to allow it in ST is illogical. It just perpetuates the core issue. Intentional griefing..NO MATTER WHO DOES IT.. is wrong against another player.

You can't keep the douchebag's from being douchebag's if they want to. EQMAC sleeper is a prime example of this. I mean they had less people due to levels/gear but the point is the same. The only thing you can do is ban them when they do things against the rules, and blackball them if they do not get banned. Everybody is so terrible to each other here its the freaking norm to not even try to blackball.

Another note:
Personally I think it would be cool...after the Sleeper is awoken, have a year of post sleeper, then it revert back for a few weeks/month, to get a shot at actually killing him. It would give people a chance to see the "ending" of the game. Wanting to experience content on a blue nostalgia simulator, what a concept!

[kotton05]

^ for president

[radditsu]

umm no?

[kotton05]

So what you guys are saying is high end raiding is toxic because training is allowed in VP? seems so

Show of hands how many of you that are complaining about this have seen VP beyond on a Twitch feed or Wiki link? almost all of them

How many of you think your guild could be clearing VP right now if training wasnt occuring there? maybe 4 guilds top could clear all but 1 or 2 dragons

[Nietche]

Enable pvp

[radditsu]

http://i.imgur.com/2b0octp.png

[Nietche]

http://i.imgur.com/2b0octp.png

I think Nilbog, Nirgon, and a couple of others will agree that the problem with p99 red has less to do with its being "PVP" and more to do with the "rules of PvP" put in place by Rogean (viz., no item loot).

[Zapatos]

On a related note, training anything from the entrance down to the warders in sleeper's tomb is INSANELY hard. In a FFA environment, any guild at warders will do everything in their power to kill the opposing guild's CoTH bot with a warder, so by that point the run will be your only option. It's not like VP where you can just walk around mobs and have them join your train... you literally have to go right through their hit boxes and there are a LOT of hard hitting mobs in the way. Selos chorus - DA - sbi likely won't cut it

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Stop writing essays

Enable pvp and root the trainers - profit
PvP ST / VP only. The New Age Arena.

[radditsu]

I think Nilbog, Nirgon, and a couple of others will agree that the problem with p99 red has less to do with its being "PVP" and more to do with the "rules of PvP" put in place by Rogean (viz., no item loot).

Oh sorry, my point was that there is a red server to play. I guess my fun little "picture is worth 1000 words" joke I had in my head did not translate well. I guess the population number was just a little bit more meta of a joke than I thought about! I mean red players seem to be a....special...breed of players. It's sad they have one giant zerg guild, but not my problem.

[Sirken]

700 at launch but little babies didnt want to lose their blue pixels and couldnt hang w broken features not reported in beta.



Keep crying about trains tho

half of that was people that had no real intention of staying on a pvp server and just wanted to try something new, or were banned for twoboxxing and/or MQ

i laugh pretty hard everytime i see a player quote that number as if anything in this universe was going to keep the pop that high.

more realistically 300-350 people would have stayed on that server. and when i talk to ex red players that have since switched to blue, i ask them why they quit red, and do you wanna guess what the number 1 answer was? Survey Says, the community.

[Alarti0001]

unintentional training is blue.

Intentional training is a) griefing and b) a red tactic..and not even a honorable red tactic.

Or Blue.
A mob killing a player is player vs environment by its nature. Whether or its allowed or not is a different question. The trainer did 0 damage to the player = PVE, and its also classic.

[radditsu]

Or Blue.
A mob killing a player is player vs environment by its nature. Whether or its allowed or not is a different question. The trainer did 0 damage to the player = PVE, and its also classic.

So, if training was legal, I could follow you around and train you all day if i wanted? You would just have to watch out for that environment that is coming down your throat.

[Sirken]

Community pre ooc was 50 people in 1 of 2 guilds. I agree at the 300 350 number tho and in time I think were gonna fluctuate there.

We all know some of they key reasons but not gonna b a broken record.

Enable pvp in the no csr zones and end blue training all together.

if they want pvp they know where to find it

[Ele]

if they want pvp they know where to find it

Then why continue to allow training?

[timhutton]

Oh sorry, my point was that there is a red server to play. I guess my fun little "picture is worth 1000 words" joke I had in my head did not translate well. I guess the population number was just a little bit more meta of a joke than I thought about! I mean red players seem to be a....special...breed of players. It's sad they have one giant zerg guild, but not my problem.

Ya.. it's pretty funny peoples first thought was "hurr durr u make fun of red, big meany!".

And Sirken I agree, so why is training allowed anywhere on blue still? :)

[Sirken]

Then why continue to allow training?
And Sirken I agree, so why is training allowed anywhere on blue still? :)

hate to bust your bubble but training != pvp

[kotton05]

What would removing training even accomplish in VP?

Seems to me it would be a lot of QQ over fraps n stuff, more so than before which kinda shitty for a GM. Enter VP knowing someone might run a train on you.

[radditsu]

hate to bust your bubble but training != pvp

It is, however, most definitely, griefing.

[timhutton]

Maybe if you're arguing semantics, however I think this thread clearly shows that most people consider players griefing players via trains something that inherently does not belong on the blue server and red bahavior.

Why do you disagree? I'm genuinly curious.

Edit: that was in response to sirken

[falkun]

Or Blue.
A mob killing a player is player vs environment by its nature. Whether or its allowed or not is a different question. The trainer did 0 damage to the player = PVE, and its also classic.

No, player_A did 100% of the damage to player_B because player_B would not have any aggro from the train if it was not for intentional interference by player_A. This is exceptionally true when player_B is non-aggro to the NPCs (invis) and player_A forces an AOE from the NPCs that catches player_B. When player_A intentionally imposes the environment on player_B, that is player vs. player.

[Ele]

hate to bust your bubble but training != pvp

If you define pvp as being limited to casting detrimental spells and being able to melee another player.


How is one player using the environment to kill another player (or raid) not player vs. player? People playing PvE expect to interact with the environment, not having to counter people trying to kill them, since they can't interact with that player beyond casting beneficial buffs in an attempt to game aggro.

[Raavak]

I'd say its a gray area.

[Alarti0001]

So, if training was legal, I could follow you around and train you all day if i wanted? You would just have to watch out for that environment that is coming down your throat.

Obviously if it was legal you could.

[Alarti0001]

If you define pvp as being limited to casting detrimental spells and being able to melee another player.


How is one player using the environment to kill another player (or raid) not player vs. player? People playing PvE expect to interact with the environment, not having to counter people trying to kill them, since they can't interact with that player beyond casting beneficial buffs in an attempt to game aggro.

Those people are interacting with the environment.

[Autotune]

If you define pvp as being limited to casting detrimental spells and being able to melee another player.


How is one player using the environment to kill another player (or raid) not player vs. player? People playing PvE expect to interact with the environment, not having to counter people trying to kill them, since they can't interact with that player beyond casting beneficial buffs in an attempt to game aggro.

PeVPe

Obviously.

[Autotune]

Red literally has 1% of the training that blue does we just root and shoot

Most people on blue just want to show up, talk in chat like a chat room, and be awarded pixels after autoattack killing the big pixelPiñata.

Anytime something happens that isn't in that guideline means petition, cry, bitch, moan, send pms, and then post on forums. Blue p99 is like playing with a server filled with entitled whiny teenagers.

[quido]

IB was getting VP dragon kills with the trains

In the interest of not rewriting history, please allow me to point out that this is absolutely not true. IB never got a single kill in VP under duress of trains.

[Autotune]

In the interest of not rewriting history, please allow me to point out that this is absolutely not true. IB never got a single kill in VP under duress of trains.

Yeah, they only managed to get them while under a rotation.

About the most successful thing I remember them doing is training us to death right after we downed a dragon and held us up from looting for a few mins.

[getsome]

Yeah, they only managed to get them while under a rotation.

About the most successful thing I remember them doing is training us to death right after we downed a dragon and held us up from looting for a few mins.

We were going to destroy that loot. Rogean came in and made the first VP rule that night.

The dragons you prevented us from killing were "your ups" not ours. The rotation was put back in place to allow for equal distribution of mobs during the entire time both guilds coexisted in VP. TMO never got one additional dragon in VP until we left.

[Alarti0001]

We were going to destroy that loot. Rogean came in and made the first VP rule that night.

The dragons you prevented us from killing were "your ups" not ours. The rotation was put back in place to allow for equal distribution of mobs during the entire time both guilds coexisted in VP. TMO never got one additional dragon in VP until we left.

So you agree IB could not kill a dragon without a rotation... thanks. Carebears

[Autotune]

We were going to destroy that loot. Rogean came in and made the first VP rule that night.

The dragons you prevented us from killing were "your ups" not ours. The rotation was put back in place to allow for equal distribution of mobs during the entire time both guilds coexisted in VP. TMO never got one additional dragon in VP until we left.

Actually, we took your week after you guys failed to do the takeover.

So, we may not have actually gained additional dragons in a sense, but in the same sense you lost a weeks worth of them.

If my memory is correct that is.

PS. Pretty sure by us taking that week, we gave you the PD that had double robes.

EDIT PS: I'm not even close to 100% on this, but I vaguely remember Rogean giving you guys the OKAY to train the corpse till it rotted.

[Autotune]

"We killed the dragons during our turn better than you killed the dragons on your turn"

P much sums it up

More like, "We are awesome cause you couldn't take our turn and then you gave us your turn to signify who is top dog."

That was the turning point imo and after that I thought TMO > IB (but not by far, IB is my friends).

[getsome]

we swapped order, we closed out one rotation and started another.

no one lossed or gained kills.

I remember you all coming to us begging for the rotation to start up again,and giving us 50% of traks uncontested, from the previous 33% we were getting. then ib smoking tmo on epics.

[Alarti0001]

we swapped order, we closed out one rotation and started another.

no one lossed or gained kills.

I remember you all coming to us begging for the rotation to start up again,and giving us 50% of traks uncontested, from the previous 33% we were getting. then ib smoking tmo on epics.

You might want to get your brain checked, you have exhibited multiple cases of mistaken memories. Early onset Alzheimers is a possible cause. Good luck!. Smoked us hard on Wiz/Necro/Bard epics... how many did you get ..... 0 ?

[Autotune]

we swapped order, we closed out one rotation and started another.

no one lossed or gained kills.

I remember you all coming to us begging for the rotation to start up again,and giving us 50% of traks uncontested, from the previous 33% we were getting. then ib smoking tmo on epics.


Yeah it went something like IB+TMO/IB+TMO/IB/TMO/IB/TMO(IB got trained for 2 hours by Zeelot)/TMO/IB/TMO/IB/TMO/TMO/TMO/TMO/TMO/TMO/TMO...

So at one point, TMO got to go twice and it just happened after IB got stomped in VP.

As far as Trak goes, 50/50 was fine with me, it was boring anyhow and TMO wasn't hurting on needing him anymore (proven by the fact TMO stomped you in VP). The thing that pissed me off was giving your sidekick guild their own slot.

I mean, you can paint it however you want, but them the facts.

[getsome]

Last time our guilds went up against each other in VP it was pretty one sided, with us punishing your players down to level 59. TMO was hell bent on IB/VD sharing the 50% trak split. After that night it was no longer the case.

[Wed Feb 01 02:26:48 2012] You told zeelot, 'kinda fun negotiating watching these trains'
[Wed Feb 01 02:31:38 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'if you confirm to me that you called off your trainers I will stop too btw. Just give the word'
[Wed Feb 01 02:31:39 2012] Perun tells the guild, 'Zeelot is sweating right now'
[Wed Feb 01 02:39:32 2012] You told zeelot, 'your trak is up now'
[Wed Feb 01 02:39:37 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'k'

[Wed Feb 01 02:41:17 2012] You told coldblooded, 'that is their trak, u can do what u want'

[quido]

getsome spinning a lose into a win - nice work

you could almost think his guild didn't RMT the fuck out of here! =)

[Autotune]

Last time our guilds went up against each other in VP it was pretty one sided, with us punishing your players down to level 59. TMO was hell bent on IB/VD sharing the 50% trak split. After that night it was no longer the case.

[Wed Feb 01 02:26:48 2012] You told zeelot, 'kinda fun negotiating watching these trains'
[Wed Feb 01 02:31:38 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'if you confirm to me that you called off your trainers I will stop too btw. Just give the word'
[Wed Feb 01 02:31:39 2012] Perun tells the guild, 'Zeelot is sweating right now'
[Wed Feb 01 02:39:32 2012] You told zeelot, 'your trak is up now'
[Wed Feb 01 02:39:37 2012] Zeelot tells you, 'k'

[Wed Feb 01 02:41:17 2012] You told coldblooded, 'that is their trak, u can do what u want'

Trak was handled poorly by some idiot. Giving VD their own slot for Trak was the biggest fuck up TMO ever did. Someone should have definitely lost their job for that. I had already talked to Taken, BDA, and Divinity into jumping on IB's (Your) trak slots to level the playing field with VD moving down for TMO's.

Sadly, much like now, they were all to afraid to actually do anything even after I told them how to easily snipe the first one from you guys.

[Tasslehofp99]

Guys dis aint rants and flames, cease this negativity at once!


Back to the discussion at hand, lets end training in vp ya'll.

[quido]

it should be

[Autotune]

Guys dis aint rants and flames, cease this negativity at once!


Back to the discussion at hand, lets end training in vp ya'll.

This isn't negativity, it's just friendly jabs between pals.

[quido]

the "you suck" is a legitimate part of my argument/stance!

[Raden]

Tasslehof what are you having for breakfast?

[Llodd]

Tasslehof what are you having for breakfast?

lets see

whineabix?

tearflakes?

crycry pops?

is that what you were thinking?

[Raavak]

Should we call the whaaa-mbulance?

[kotton05]

Sometimes when I stay up all night I can't tell if the screaming outside are kids or someone getting murdered.

Time for 2001 space odyssey me thinks.

[Alarti0001]

getsome spinning a lose into a win - nice work

you could almost think his guild didn't RMT the fuck out of here! =)

Its fun to watch getsome thrash about trying to convince himself his guild won.

[Nietche]

When player_A intentionally imposes the environment on player_B, that is player vs. player.

Man this made me laugh irl. If this is the case, then blue servers are actually red. Every time a monk/sk pulls a dragon in VP (or mobs in LGuK, KC, HS, SolB, Befallen, etc.), thus intentionally imposing the environment on every other player at the raid, that must be player versus player.

Right?

[Ele]

Man this made me laugh irl. If this is the case, then blue servers are actually red. Every time a monk/sk pulls a dragon in VP (or mobs in LGuK, KC, HS, SolB, Befallen, etc.), thus intentionally imposing the environment on every other player at the raid, that must be player versus player.

Right?

Are you purposely being obtuse?

The first situation is one of purposeful training by one party to kill and/or grief a second party. The scenario posed in your quote above, is a member of a party pulling a mob in the environment to other members of the same party.

Players killing players is a foundation of red, players consent to that when they roll on a red server.
The same is not true of blue (except when consent is given through a duel/arena).

[Nietche]

Players killing players is a foundation of red, players consent to that when they roll on a red server.

The same is not true of blue (except when consent is given through a duel/arena or in VP).

FTFY

[Splorf22]

Man this made me laugh irl. If this is the case, then blue servers are actually red. Every time a monk/sk pulls a dragon in VP (or mobs in LGuK, KC, HS, SolB, Befallen, etc.), thus intentionally imposing the environment on every other player at the raid, that must be player versus player.

Right?

Really there is probably a spectrum:

Pure PVE: each (group of) player's experiences are independent of the others. It would require instances, so I would say Diablo or WoW come pretty close to this.

EQ: mostly PVE, but players can choose to cooperate or compete, which mostly occurs via cockblocking/racing.

EQ PVP: Players can actually attack each other, opening up a whole new level of griefing

EQ Trains: Given the relative strength of the monsters and players, I think this actually a much more brutal form of PVP than actual PVP, and they do not allow trains on red. Considering that a non-FD class can do absolutely nothing about being trained repeatedly by an FD class, it's hard to consider that anything other than griefing. At least on a PVP server the warrior can try and kill the monk/necro/sk; in VP 90% of the players are pure targets.

[Nietche]

When I rolled blue, I expected a lot. Yes, I expected to be trained by both idiots and d-bags too. Why? Because that's part of the game.

[Raavak]

Players killing players is a foundation of red, players consent to that when they roll on a red server.

The same is not true of blue (except when consent is given through a duel/arena or in VP).


FTFYQFT. People know what they are getting into when they zone in. Its been that way since day 1 of VP.

[Ele]

QFT. People know what they are getting into when they zone in. Its been that way since day 1 of VP.

What about the people that rolled on blue before that "rule" was instituted? They just have to live with it?

[Gadwen]

Allowing trains anywhere is just stupid, but I don't blame the staff for just washing their hands of what goes on in VP....ultimately it comes down to the players, and lets face facts...a lot of you guys are just shitheads that nobody wants to deal with or even be around. It really is sad that on an emu of a 14 year old game that so many feel the need to pretend that they are 14 years old themselves.

However I do find it funny that while I have seen multiple members of the staff say on several occasions that they wish that the raid guilds on this server would be smaller and not centered around zerging, but they implement mechanics and allow behavior that encourages the exact opposite.

[falkun]

QFT. People know what they are getting into when they zone in. Its been that way since day 1 of VP.
Its pretty funny you say "Day 1" considering its the first 24 hours that VP was a GM-enforced rotation, the exact opposite of what you state:
After the first 24 hours of Veeshan's Peak, the zone will become a Non-Disputable Zone. CSR will not be responding or taking any action on disputes that involve the zone. You are on your own.
Ignorance really taints an argument.

[Joroz]

on live the zone was non csr to give you a real sense of loosing your hard earned pixels if your raid sucked bad enough to go in and loose their bodies. No gm help, no summons, no anything... just you and your naked friends trying desperately to get your gear back that took countless /played days of your life to get.

on p99 the zone is non csr but means a whole different thing, its more like a battleground where everything goes... except certain exploits. its not about loosing your shit; its about just not caring about this zone at all... so guilds "should" be able to work out their own issues with each other in this zone on p99 but as we see this not the case and often overflows into the rest of the server. VP on p99 is in care-bear mode, the dynamics are broken for most of the zone and the only challenges that this zone really presents guilds is how to pvp each other with mobs.

[Ele]

on live the zone was non csr to give you a real sense of loosing your hard earned pixels if your raid sucked bad enough to go in and loose their bodies. No gm help, no summons, no anything... just you and your naked friends trying desperately to get your gear back that took countless /played days of your life to get.

on p99 the zone is non csr but means a whole different thing, its more like a battleground where everything goes... except certain exploits. its not about loosing your shit; its about just not caring about this zone at all... so guilds "should" be able to work out their own issues with each other in this zone on p99 but as we see this not the case and often overflows into the rest of the server. VP on p99 is in care-bear mode, the dynamics are broken for most of the zone and the only challenges that this zone really presents guilds is how to pvp each other with mobs.

There is also zero risk of corpse rot in VP or other places on this server. People can come back a year later and get their stuff back.

[Raavak]

Its pretty funny you say "Day 1" considering its the first 24 hours that VP was a GM-enforced rotation, the exact opposite of what you state:

Ignorance really taints an argument.You're picking knits. You know what I meant.

[Nietche]

What about the people that rolled on blue before that "rule" was instituted? They just have to live with it?

Yes.

[timhutton]

FTFY

Why do you keep fixing things like this? Don't you understand that is the entire point of this thread? To highlight how this happens everywhere BUT VP and a cry for some consistency?

You're stating the obvious and highlighting how bogus it is that training is allowed in only 1 zone. It adds nothing thoughtful to the conversation that the very first post did not already, and only adds to the fact that being allowed to train in VP is ridiculous.

Do you not understand this?

[Autotune]

What about the people that rolled on blue before that "rule" was instituted? They just have to live with it?

It's kinda how rules are supposed to work, you live with them regardless of when they were instituted.

I think it's been stated enough that not everyone's classic server was ran exactly the same rule enforcement wise by EQ staffers. Coming to p99, one should expect emulated eq with emulated rules; however, too many come here expecting a fucking time machine of nostalgia.

Play P99 for what it is, fight in-game for the change that you want to see in P99 (it's proven to work), and enjoy the ride regardless.

TMO's general stance has never changed and it doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. They've reached out several times and each time it was shit on by the server, reap what you sow (on both sides). The server keeps smashing these posts against the GMs and TMO as if one day a rainbow of forgiveness will wash over Zeelot and crew and turn them all into flaming EQ pixel fairies, it's not going to happen... stop trying to make it happen.

Try going in-game, find a bunch of like minded individuals, align under a single banner, and then take what you want by force, political means, trolling, and/or RL assassination, etc... it's the only way.

[timhutton]

It's kinda how rules are supposed to work, you live with them regardless of when they were instituted.

I think it's been stated enough that not everyone's classic server was ran exactly the same rule enforcement wise by EQ staffers. Coming to p99, one should expect emulated eq with emulated rules; however, too many come here expecting a fucking time machine of nostalgia.

Play P99 for what it is, fight in-game for the change that you want to see in P99 (it's proven to work), and enjoy the ride regardless.

TMO's general stance has never changed and it doesn't appear to be changing anytime soon. They've reached out several times and each time it was shit on by the server, reap what you sow (on both sides). The server keeps smashing these posts against the GMs and TMO as if one day a rainbow of forgiveness will wash over Zeelot and crew and turn them all into flaming EQ pixel fairies, it's not going to happen... stop trying to make it happen.

Try going in-game, find a bunch of like minded individuals, align under a single banner, and then take what you want by force, political means, trolling, and/or RL assassination, etc... it's the only way.

I think people come here expecting it's going to be a real attempt at a server running "classic" everquest code, and instead they later find out that it is instead an attempt to emulate the "classic" atmosphere rather than the game itself. Which is just stupid.

Project 1999 is a free to play Emulated Everquest Server giving Players the opportunity to experience Classic EQ Once again, starting with the original 3 continents and a max level of 50, with the look and feel of the old interface and several modifications making game mechanics similar to how the game used to be.

I don't want to play project 1999, I want to play classic EverQuest. The fact intentional non-classic things exist here (for good or worse) has caused me and many like me to practically stop playing. It feels disingenuous.

I know it takes work to get things right and coded "classically" but when decisions are made that intentionally and knowingly violate something that was classic I refuse to accept it. That's not why I started playing here, and it won't keep me continuing to play here.

I don't want to play project 1999, I want to play classic everquest. Fuck me, right?

[Arteker]

Its pretty funny you say "Day 1" considering its the first 24 hours that VP was a GM-enforced rotation, the exact opposite of what you state:

Ignorance really taints an argument.

wrong TR and TMO had a rotation based either of both guilds could attemp to kill a dragon at the moment with both guilds playing trains.


There was little GM but Zeelot and Swarws in ven to work it out with a gm as moderator invited by both parties, and we can prove it because back in time we had it recorded.


rotation lasted till TR broke and IB did not honour and tried to take tmo mobs while in sky .

then TMO refused and pushed IB of VP and this lead to IB pseudo friendly raids with VD.

u should know back in the day u asked me about this shit alot of times in our groups in HS.

[getsome]

wrong TR and TMO had a rotation based either of both guilds could attemp to kill a dragon at the moment with both guilds playing trains.


There was little GM but Zeelot and Swarws in ven to work it out with a gm as moderator invited by both parties, and we can prove it because back in time we had it recorded.


rotation lasted till TR broke and IB did not honour and tried to take tmo mobs while in sky .

then TMO refused and pushed IB of VP and this lead to IB pseudo friendly raids with VD.

u should know back in the day u asked me about this shit alot of times in our groups in HS.

Wrong - we did a random for mobs on VP launch. Had a GM enforced split of VP on Day 1.

[Arteker]

Wrong - we did a random for mobs on VP launch. Had a GM enforced split of VP on Day 1.

after few hours of playing up down

[Joroz]

The occupy VP movement worked really well till the 5 or 6 doing it got burned out... seems there are quite a bit more people now with interest in VP which could basically make it impossible to kill anything until things get worked out... Don't expect gm's to change anything... get your ass in there and "exploit" the lack of rules to prevent anyone from progressing... which will eventually lead to progress. Only takes a few people to ruin hours of many in that zone.

[Arteker]

Wrong - we did a random for mobs on VP launch. Had a GM enforced split of VP on Day 1.

and better why not a solid answer . why when TR broke and u guys formed in secret again IB u broke the rotation?.

[salimoneus]

...
I don't want to play project 1999, I want to play classic everquest. Fuck me, right?

If only this project had the level of support that Sony had, unfortunately that just isn't the case. Some people are asking for the impossible. The guys running this shit already have full time jobs, and require nothing in return for us to play for free. Try not to act so entitled.

[Tasslehofp99]

The occupy VP movement worked really well till the 5 or 6 doing it got burned out... seems there are quite a bit more people now with interest in VP which could basically make it impossible to kill anything until things get worked out... Don't expect gm's to change anything... get your ass in there and "exploit" the lack of rules to prevent anyone from progressing... which will eventually lead to progress. Only takes a few people to ruin hours of many in that zone.

Very true but some of us actually dislike training and griefing other players, even if it meant a bigger chance that negotiations should be had. Training is lame, annoying, not challenging, and frankly isn't even entertaining. Sure, killing 30-40 TMO in a few minutes is probably fun the first time or two you do it. After that, if you enjoy it, you're just retarded.

Just need to change the shitty rules that are in place concerning VP. It's the last raid zone available on this server and on kunark, has been locked down by 1 guild for 2 years now, lets just change this bullshit rule once and for all and make P99 more classic and more fun.


PS: Training was never allowed on live to all the mongoloids who still have yet to grasp this idea. Training was allowed in VP on p99 I guess because the p99 GM's felt this was the best way to set it up at the time. "Non-CSR" zones on live did not mean you could train, only that you were shit out of luck if you wiped because GM's would not help you. Now, times have changed, and there are a lot more players here.

Sanctioned training no longer works for VP.

[Joroz]

Very true but some of us actually dislike training and griefing other players

No one said it was liked... actually VD's effort ultimately failed as 90% of the guild wasn't on board with this tactic so it eventually fizzled out as those doing it got burned out... however I would imagine there it quite a bit more people playing these days that do not have such a reservation about training in a zone without rules. I support the idea that train's should just be considered bad in all zones but no one cares at all about VP... you might just have to take matters into your hands and force changes in the community.

[Tasslehofp99]

No one said it was liked... actually VD's effort ultimately failed as 90% of the guild wasn't on board with this tactic so it eventually fizzled out as those doing it got burned out... however I would imagine there it quite a bit more people playing these days that do not have such a reservation about training in a zone without rules. I support the idea that train's should just be considered bad in all zones but no one cares at all about VP... you might just have to take matters into your hands and force changes in the community.

For sure, I see what you're saying. It's just unfortunate if this is going to be the case.

[Joroz]

people dislike doing corpse retrievals with their play time... even worse is when you get bat-phoned to get wiped and do corpse retrievals.

we know the powers that be have 0 interest in changing rules in this zone... therefor the answer is simple...

go big, within the rules, but go big... escalate the conflict in VP to the point of it being ridiculous. force treaties to happen or the bullshit overflows so much out of VP that policy needs to change.

or...

keep making posts trying to persuade changes... we see how that usually works out.

[Dragonmist]

65 Pages later ... /sigh lol

[Arteker]

and better why not a solid answer . why when TR broke and u guys formed in secret again IB u broke the rotation?.

bump

[timhutton]

If only this project had the level of support that Sony had, unfortunately that just isn't the case. Some people are asking for the impossible. The guys running this shit already have full time jobs, and require nothing in return for us to play for free. Try not to act so entitled.

Entitled because people sign up for this shit only to realize the statement on the front page does not match the servers reality? Not to mention a lot of people quit or don't play because of it. I don't think you understand how entitlement works.

[Tasslehofp99]

Entitled because people sign up for this shit only to realize the statement on the front page does not match the servers reality? Not to mention a lot of people quit or don't play because of it. I don't think you understand how entitlement works.

Good point!

We have had many changes introduced to p99 in the name of keeping things classic.
Some examples: maps/target rings removed, hide nerf, tracking nerf, among many others.


Why not remove training in VP? Shit is not classic and was never allowed on live.


Next poll topic I will address is new rules regarding cazic thule pops, because kiting an entire zone to kill CT is far from classic as well. Not to mention the folks intentionally setting off DT cycles to buy time for their guild and the fact that anytime a guild has a kite going and another guild engages CT the bards kiting conveniently drops his zonewide kite right on top of the guild engaging CT.

Lets keep the discussion going here thougg since the votes continue to come in everyday. We have had a very significant response to this thread which hopefully will be taken into account by nilbog and co moving forward. I don't see the current population numbers sticking around as long as the rules allow one guild to intentionally train another.

[quido]

I thought training was allowed on some servers!

[Tasslehofp99]

Some people also had these.

http://cb.pbsstatic.com/l/43/2843/9780761522843.jpg

Haha btw if anyone is interested you can download the kunark prima guide in.pdf form off of the internet. On page 24 or so there is a statement from verant interactives CSR rep regarding the implementation of an enforced play nice policy due to the training/griefing which took place through the first year of everquest's existance. I don't have it in front of me but he specifically states they made a play nice policy enforced by gms to prevent friendly players from quitting EQ due to the type of assfuckery that regularly occurs here.


Just thought that was an interesting find considering how many idiots we have here who are under the impression that training was ever allowed on live eq servers when literally all evidence points to the contrary. If I can find a way to turn the specific page I'm referring to into an image I can upload ill do it after work, if anyone else is interested its page 23 to 25 of the prima kunark guide I believe.

[Tasslehofp99]

I thought training was allowed on some servers!

Maybe on pvp servers, couldn't speak to that fact though.

[quido]

I thought it was anything goes on Fennin Ro

[Faerie]

Training was most certainly not allowed on Vallon Zek (PvP Teams).

[Tasslehofp99]

I thought it was anything goes on Fennin Ro

Well I didn't play there but I sincerely doubt it. Perhaps guilds had agreements amongst eachother to be scumbags and not involve the GMs. I doubt this because it makes very little sense that rules would ve enforced on the other 20+ live servers but not on Fennin. But so far I have not found one shred of evidence that training was ever allowed on any server, in any zone.


And trust me I've been looking hard since creating this thread.

[Tasslehofp99]

Training was most certainly not allowed on Vallon Zek (PvP Teams).

To be honest I think it was not allowed on any server. I only mentioned the pvp servers because I never played on one during live so couldn't say.


There is basically no evidence that training was ever allowed or an acceptable stratedgy for one guild to use against another. In fact on live entire guilds were disbanded for intentional training.


Lets fix this major flaw in the p99 raiding scene bros, lets not let an oily minority group on the server decide how we should spend our time on p99. Why should one guild be allowed to Train another in any zone? There's no justification for it other than to grief your competition and waste peoples time.

[Zeelot]

Not sure about other servers, but Fennin Ro was always chaotic in the early days.

Just for example - Massive shroom trains were the standard thing every single trak race. Ntov was insanity, but luckily once a guild was wiped out they had trouble getting back. Even when we hit luclin, things were the same - races to Emp Ssra area involved guilds hitting each other with huge trains until 1 guild successfully managed to get to the emp room.

GMs sometimes stepped in made guilds /random 100 for a shot at a clean engage. That only usually happened when hours went by with no one able to engage due to constant trains. Sometimes petitions would get answered right away, but it was extremely rare. GMs usually just ignored the guilds that were training each other and let them have at it.

So basically, if you are requesting the raid rule set on p1999 be more classic. Training should be allowed in any zone and GMs should just selectively enforce against it when they feel it is out of hand. If training gets out of hand, GMs force all participating guilds to /random 100 for an attempt.

This would be classic.

[Alorae]

...implying that "classic" is defined by however it may or may not have been on Fennin Ro.

Was not like that at all on any of the servers I played on. The GMs did not allow that shit.

[Faerie]

To be honest I think it was not allowed on any server. I only mentioned the pvp servers because I never played on one during live so couldn't say.


There is basically no evidence that training was ever allowed or an acceptable stratedgy for one guild to use against another. In fact on live entire guilds were disbanded for intentional training.


Lets fix this major flaw in the p99 raiding scene bros, lets not let an oily minority group on the server decide how we should spend our time on p99. Why should one guild be allowed to Train another in any zone? There's no justification for it other than to grief your competition and waste peoples time.

It was allowed on Sullon Zek, and only Sullon Zek.

The Sullon Zek Server (Deity based team PvP)

The Sullon Zek server is a new server with a new rule set. The rules for this server are very different than those on any other EverQuest server. In general the server is based on the concept of a PvP teams server, like Tallon and Vallon Zek, but with the teams chosen based on which god the character worships rather than the race of the character.

Sullon Zek rules:

1. Player v. Player (PvP) combat can occur between any characters that are not on the same team, regardless of level. A level 50 character can attack and kill a level 6 character if that character is not a member of his alliance. But rules 2 and 3 apply.

2. Characters will be immune to PvP combat until they have gained enough strength to survive the struggle. Characters below 6th level are not able to participate in PvP combat, unless they stray from city and newbie zones. As soon as a character 'dings' into 6th level he or she will become PvP enabled.

3. Characters will lose experience when killed in PvP combat if the character that killed them is within 5 levels. The amount of experience lost will be the same amount that is lost if that character is killed by an NPC. Your corpse can be resurrected by a cleric to partially restore lost experience.

4. Characters will only be able to loot coins from other characters, and then only if the victim was within 5 levels of the killer. Only the character getting the killing blow will be able to loot the corpse.

5. Players may only have one character at a time on this server. This means that you will have to delete the existing character in order to create a new one. Because we are introducing a new class and a new race with the release of Shadows of Luclin we plan to make allowances at that time for those that wish to explore these new characters.

6. Characters will not be able to group with anyone that is not on their Deity Team.

7. Characters will not be able to invite someone to join their guild that is not on their Deity Team.

8. Combat skills' effective value is capped at 2 levels above a players current level.

9. Resistance debuff spells have a 50% increased effectiveness against player characters.

10. /consider returns only three kinds of results when used against player characters. 'Green' means that the character is below your range. 'White' or 'black' means that the character is within your range. 'Red' means that they are above your range. 'In range' means +/- 5 levels.

11. /consider will also display a message indicating what team the target is on. Members of your own team will be displayed as an 'ally'.

12. Faction hits for PvP will be taken for killing characters within their racial home towns. Killing a human in any human starting city will cause a faction loss with the locals. Freeport, Qeynos and Surefall Glade are considered starting cities for humans. All of Greater Faydark and Felwithe are considered the starting city for all elves (high elves and wood elves), except dark elves. Paineel and Erudin are both starting cities for erudites, and killing one in either city (regardless of their place of origin) will result in a faction loss with that city. Other cities are not considered home towns, despite being run and controlled by a certain race. For example, HighHold is not a human home town. Thurgadin is not a dwarven home town.

13. Rules such as the Play Nice Policy do not apply to this server. Characters have the ability on this server to deal with their conflicts through combat. Causing experience loss by 'training' NPCs on other characters is not an offense that would warrant a warning this server. HOWEVER: All rules regarding general decency still apply. Cursing, threats and other such things will be dealt with sternly, and are still unacceptable behavior on any PvP server.

14. Beneficial effects can not be used on members of another team.

15. No character will be able to bind in dungeon zones.

16. 'Buff' spells will not affect characters more than 20 levels lower than the spell level. Existing spell restrictions on spells over 50th level will supercede this rule.

17. There will be 'insignia' dropped on the corpses of characters over 20th level that are killed by another character. We plan to allow those to be turned in for a reward of some sort. What that reward will be is undetermined at this time, but we are leaning towards a team reward rather than a personal reward.

18. Naked corpses will disappear when looted by a player character. If you are naked and killed by a player character, your corpse will disappear when it is looted.

The 'Teams':

The Good Alliance consists of: Erollisi Marr, Mithaniel Marr, Rodcet Nife, Quellious, Tunare
The Evil Alliance consists of: Bertoxxulous, Cazic Thule, Innoruuk, Rallos Zek
The Neutral Alliance consists of: Brell Serilis, Bristlebane, Karana, Prexus, Solusek Ro, The Tribunal, Veeshan.

There are no Agnostics on Sullon Zek. With the new influence of the gods, those that had not declared for one deity or another have been killed. Everyone now worships a deity, if not out of respect, love or fear of the god, then out of fear for their lives at the hands of fanatics.
Barbarian Shaman and Warriors can choose to worship Mithaniel Marr. Mithaniel Marr was unwilling to abandon all of the noble barbarians that served the good, and many declared themselves in favor of an alliance with Good.
Monks will be able to worship Veeshan. The Temple in Qeynos has discovered some ancient writings that opened up new avenues.
We will be including a method for the Good and Neutral teams to use Summon Corpse or something similar.

[Zeelot]

I'm not implying that. Obviously every server is different. Everyone had a different EQ experience due to totally different server environments. We could debate all day long which would be the most 'classic' ruleset, but there was no standardized ruleset. Disputes were handled differently on every server.

Thus, the GMs here do it their way and I respect that. Personally I think the community should let them set the rules the way they want without complaints.

[Tasslehofp99]

Not sure about other servers, but Fennin Ro was always chaotic in the early days.

Just for example - Massive shroom trains were the standard thing every single trak race. Ntov was insanity, but luckily once a guild was wiped out they had trouble getting back. Even when we hit luclin, things were the same - races to Emp Ssra area involved guilds hitting each other with huge trains until 1 guild successfully managed to get to the emp room.

GMs sometimes stepped in made guilds /random 100 for a shot at a clean engage. That only usually happened when hours went by with no one able to engage due to constant trains. Sometimes petitions would get answered right away, but it was extremely rare. GMs usually just ignored the guilds that were training each other and let them have at it.

So basically, if you are requesting the raid rule set on p1999 be more classic. Training should be allowed in any zone and GMs should just selectively enforce against it when they feel it is out of hand. If training gets out of hand, GMs force all participating guilds to /random 100 for an attempt.

This would be classic.

Or we could just not train eachother and waste eachothers time, and not base the.rules for a server which over 1000 ppl play on according to what happened on one server, by one persons account.

[salimoneus]

...
Why not remove training in VP? Shit is not classic and was never allowed on live.


Because this isn't intended to be an exact copy of classic, they do the best they can with the resources available. Comparing this project to a commercial product with millions of dollars in the budget is a complete waste of time.

The more rules and restrictions you impose, the more rules and restrictions that are going to be broken, the more petitions filed, the more petitions that need to be answered. In other words a bunch of bullshit on someone's plate. I don't think anyone wants to deal with that, at least I sure as hell wouldn't want to. So they opted to let nature take it's course. Can't say I blame them really.

So people either need to find a way to compete out in the wild, or stay in the safety of their caves and be happy to grab the leftover scraps. That's nature.

[Clark]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5674309888/hDA1D3B43/

I like this picture :D

[Nietche]

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5674309888/hDA1D3B43/

[Tasslehofp99]

I'm not implying that. Obviously every server is different. Everyone had a different EQ experience due to totally different server environments. We could debate all day long which would be the most 'classic' ruleset, but there was no standardized ruleset. Disputes were handled differently on every server.

Thus, the GMs here do it their way and I respect that. Personally I think the community should let them set the rules the way they want without complaints.



I agree the GMs should make the rules without backlash from players. However when the final raiding zone in the game has been given a non classic ruleset that no longer fits the majority of the players who raid here then it may be time to atleast discuss some changes.

I think there are 3 or 4 guilds with vp keyed players in them at this point and only one of them raids VP regularly. This isn't due to other guilds inability to kill dragons in this zone but more likely due to the fact that most of us aren't interested in having 8 hour train fests to have one engage on a mob. It wasn't like this on live so to expect any guilds to invest that amount of time just to have a shot at.dragon is unreasonable.

Why is it unreasonable to want to discuss changes to a nonclassic rule that no longer works for the majority of raiders on p99?

There are no reasons that I can think of to keep training legal in vp other than it keeping petitions down in numbers for the gms. But if training was outlawes and enforced the way it is outside of VP there shouldn't be an issue really. If this is the case what happen.s when velious opens and tons more mobs are added to the raid scene? Lets end sanctioned training now before velious hits so we have an overall better, less asstastic, raiding experience.

I don't see how allowing training in one zone due to overload on the petition queue makes sense when in velious there will be 100 more mobs contested and lots more players.

It just seems silly now.

[Laugher]

Pepsi is disgusting

I approve this message lol

Rofl enabling pvp on blue would be hilarious and worthy of a 1 day event

Also I believe this would be an interesting event :D although the potentially lesser numbers that logged in that day might make* it a little boring.

[sanforce]

I was watching Tiggles stream earlier tonight. When TMO went into VP, the ONLY people that were training were FE monks that were trying to delay the inevitable dragon kills. FE wasn't even attempting the mobs, they were just there to grief (2 monks - Xerxes and Huen I believe, and 1 cleric - Goodies). TMO wasn't crying, they laughed and shrugged it off, and then got the kills anyways. I don't see why other guild can't use some coordination and get the same thing accomplished. They must just all be that bad - can't handle the rules so the /cry and try to get the rules changed because their eq skills and organization is sub par. It's also unfortunate when FE griefs in VP because it gets the streams shut down. That being said, I think it is a nice change of pace from the other raid encounters, and I think that FE should be allowed to train in there if they want, even if they never actually attempt a VP mob.

[Tasslehofp99]

I was watching Tiggles stream earlier tonight. When TMO went into VP, the ONLY people that were training were FE monks that were trying to delay the inevitable dragon kills. FE wasn't even attempting the mobs, they were just there to grief (2 monks - Xerxes and Huen I believe, and 1 cleric - Goodies). TMO wasn't crying, they laughed and shrugged it off, and then got the kills anyways. I don't see why other guild can't use some coordination and get the same thing accomplished. They must just all be that bad - can't handle the rules so the /cry and try to get the rules changed because their eq skills and organization is sub par. It's also unfortunate when FE griefs in VP because it gets the streams shut down. That being said, I think it is a nice change of pace from the other raid encounters, and I think that FE should be allowed to train in there if they want, even if they never actually attempt a VP mob.

Well you're bringing up 2 or 3 people playing within the rules given to them, not sure what relevance your post has within this thread. If people want to go spend hours training and it is allowed by the current rules, why would they not? That would be their prerogative.


My thread was meantvto gauge the servers players opinion of the situation and perhaps open the doors to discussion regarding altering the rules.

If you want to bring up FE or specific members of FE please do so on rants and flames.


The issue here is not TMO/IB/FE or their storied pasts on this server, its the rules in the final raid zone available to players here. Training being allowed there just further fosters guilds animosity as well as requiring them to bloat their rosters to immense sizes just to be able to compete.


You wanna zone into vp with your guild? Better have at the very least 10 players ready to train for hours on end just to get a clean pull. Then you wanna engage thay dragon? Better make sure you kill every opposing guild member in zone first. Don't forget all it takes is a ninja rezzed monk or two to train a guild engaged to a mob in vp.

In other words VP under the current system is complete idiocy. You can sit here and bring up FE or IB or TMO, but lets be real, it really isn't up to any of them. Atleast I hope it isn't.


This is about staying true to what p99 (atleast I thought) was meant to be.
Lets try to look past petty differences and do whats right for the server.


The funny thing is I sincerely feel that VP without training would be a lot more fun, and less time would be wasted with idiotic training. I don't understand, training isn't a sign of skill but rather the lack thereof. To me, being able to race to a mob and engage it without training one another would be a much greater indicator of skill.

[Tasslehofp99]

On live, trainers were shunned.
On p99 trainers are praised.

Dafuq?

[Autotune]

On live, trainers were shunned.
On p99 trainers are praised.

Dafuq?

Apparently not all trainers are praised, just the ones who do good jobs in VP.

[Tasslehofp99]

Well you're bringing up 2 or 3 people playing within the rules given to them, not sure what relevance your post has within this thread. If people want to go spend hours training and it is allowed by the current rules, why would they not? That would be their prerogative.


My thread was meantvto gauge the servers players opinion of the situation and perhaps open the doors to discussion regarding altering the rules.

If you want to bring up FE or specific members of FE please do so on rants and flames.


The issue here is not TMO/IB/FE or their storied pasts on this server, its the rules in the final raid zone available to players here. Training being allowed there just further fosters guilds animosity as well as requiring them to bloat their rosters to immense sizes just to be able to compete.


You wanna zone into vp with your guild? Better have at the very least 10 players ready to train for hours on end just to get a clean pull. Then you wanna engage thay dragon? Better make sure you kill every opposing guild member in zone first. Don't forget all it takes is a ninja rezzed monk or two to train a guild engaged to a mob in vp.

In other words VP under the current system is complete idiocy. You can sit here and bring up FE or IB or TMO, but lets be real, it really isn't up to any of them. Atleast I hope it isn't.


This is about staying true to what p99 (atleast I thought) was meant to be.
Lets try to look past petty differences and do whats right for the server.


The funny thing is I sincerely feel that VP without training would be a lot more fun, and less time would be wasted with idiotic training. I don't understand, training isn't a sign of skill but rather the lack thereof. To me, being able to race to a mob and engage it without training one another would be a much greater indicator of skill.l


Apparently not all trainers are praised, just the ones who do good jobs in VP.

See quoted post for response to your idiotic comment, and return to rants and flames where trolls belong.

[Arteker]

and better why not a solid answer . why when TR broke and u guys formed in secret again IB u broke the rotation?.

bump

[Autotune]

l




See quoted post for response to your idiotic comment, and return to rants and flames where trolls belong.

Train in any zone other than VP and see how well you are praised.

Your quoted post is completely pointless, it doesn't address what I stated (that you quoted) and it doesn't have any bearing on what Rogean has already stated.

[Tasslehofp99]

Train in any zone other than VP and see how well you are praised.

Your quoted post is completely pointless, it doesn't address what I stated (that you quoted) and it doesn't have any bearing on what Rogean has already stated.

Your initial comment on this thread is unnecessary and offers nothing aside from trollbait, in my opinion. You don't play here anymore by your own admission, so whats your interest in this thread?

Aside from trolling it that is.

[salimoneus]

I was watching Tiggles stream earlier tonight. When TMO went into VP, the ONLY people that were training were FE monks that were trying to delay the inevitable dragon kills. FE wasn't even attempting the mobs, they were just there to grief (2 monks - Xerxes and Huen I believe, and 1 cleric - Goodies). TMO wasn't crying, they laughed and shrugged it off, and then got the kills anyways. I don't see why other guild can't use some coordination and get the same thing accomplished. They must just all be that bad - can't handle the rules so the /cry and try to get the rules changed because their eq skills and organization is sub par. It's also unfortunate when FE griefs in VP because it gets the streams shut down. That being said, I think it is a nice change of pace from the other raid encounters, and I think that FE should be allowed to train in there if they want, even if they never actually attempt a VP mob.

Help me, Rogean. You're my only hope.

[Nietche]

Because this isn't intended to be an exact copy of classic, they do the best they can with the resources available. Comparing this project to a commercial product with millions of dollars in the budget is a complete waste of time.

The more rules and restrictions you impose, the more rules and restrictions that are going to be broken, the more petitions filed, the more petitions that need to be answered. In other words a bunch of bullshit on someone's plate. I don't think anyone wants to deal with that, at least I sure as hell wouldn't want to. So they opted to let nature take it's course. Can't say I blame them really.

So people either need to find a way to compete out in the wild, or stay in the safety of their caves and be happy to grab the leftover scraps. That's nature.

I find it vastly interesting that members of FE posted this thread to begin with, that they cry about how the rules in VP specifically result in griefing, that they argue that training should not be allowed because it isn't fun, that they whine about TMO being the primary instigators....then Tassiepants with the usual "smoke and mirrors" response basically supports Xerxes, Shinko (Huen), and Goodies' "griefing tools" in VP.

How is that not hypocritical?

Well you're bringing up 2 or 3 people playing within the rules given to them, not sure what relevance your post has within this thread. If people want to go spend hours training and it is allowed by the current rules, why would they not? That would be their prerogative.

The funny thing is I sincerely feel that VP without training would be a lot more fun.

Before the "definition police" enter the scene again,

Hypocrite:

1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion


2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

[Loli Pops]

http://i.imgur.com/OEuac.jpg

[radditsu]

I have stated my case repeatedly. I have refrained from trolling(in this forum). I find it interesting...and boring... to be trolled in a legit discussion thread. What we are seeing is a legit discussion continually trying to be derailed by people who would love for this to be bumped into the Rnf. Discuss the issue and stop trying to compare disparate things.

A) if eq was a sport we wouldn't be so fat
B) if it were professional we would be paid
C) in a game...rules should be consistent.
D) everquest is a game, this is a nostalgia simulator of an old game. It should have had its rules polished by now.
E)Fix it.

[Susano]

Hypocrite:

1: a person who puts on a false appearance of virtue or religion


2: a person who acts in contradiction to his or her stated beliefs or feelings

I'd say that most TMO would be well versed in the definition of this word, this member in particular.

[t0lkien]

That definition is not what it used to be, though it could include those things. A hypocrite was someone who pretended to be something they weren't, essentially, usually in a moral way.

Actually, this is a better definition: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypocrite

Sorry to be an English Nazi :)

[timhutton]

Haha btw if anyone is interested you can download the kunark prima guide in.pdf form off of the internet. On page 24 or so there is a statement from verant interactives CSR rep regarding the implementation of an enforced play nice policy due to the training/griefing which took place through the first year of everquest's existance. I don't have it in front of me but he specifically states they made a play nice policy enforced by gms to prevent friendly players from quitting EQ due to the type of assfuckery that regularly occurs here.


Just thought that was an interesting find considering how many idiots we have here who are under the impression that training was ever allowed on live eq servers when literally all evidence points to the contrary. If I can find a way to turn the specific page I'm referring to into an image I can upload ill do it after work, if anyone else is interested its page 23 to 25 of the prima kunark guide I believe.


Thanks for pointing this out. I knew I kept my physical copy around for a reason. Highlighted the important bits, in case there was ever any doubt.

Implemented date, and original intent.. seems familiar:
http://i.imgur.com/UO4kuuE.jpg

Contested spawns and player duty:
http://i.imgur.com/YExuN4l.jpg

Zone disruption/training/and guilds (some guilds have been raid suspended like 4 times now?):
http://i.imgur.com/C45OKub.jpg

Training wasn't even allowed on red.. yet people argue it's ok on blue:
http://i.imgur.com/YwYz6wh.jpg


Seems like a cop-out/crock of shit to me.

Let's play classic EverQuest bros.

[timhutton]

Lol I found this map folded up in between the pages of my guide.. I think this is the map from EQTrilogy.. can anyone confirm/deny? Glad I opened this up today, might get this framed.. it's brand new :D

http://i.imgur.com/mzT6XbI.jpg

[timhutton]

Training was most certainly not allowed on Vallon Zek (PvP Teams).

Training was not allowed anywhere, on either blue or PVP. See 2 posts up, last image for PVP server ruling.

*edit: read your rules on sullon.. not sure where you got them from, but assuming they are legit then yes these rules would not have applied to sz!

[timhutton]

So basically, if you are requesting the raid rule set on p1999 be more classic. Training should be allowed in any zone and GMs should just selectively enforce against it when they feel it is out of hand. If training gets out of hand, GMs force all participating guilds to /random 100 for an attempt.

This would be classic.

I'm not implying that. Obviously every server is different. Everyone had a different EQ experience due to totally different server environments. We could debate all day long which would be the most 'classic' ruleset, but there was no standardized ruleset. Disputes were handled differently on every server.

That's not true.. any training whatsoever called for immediate disciplinary action. If players could not work things out amongst themselves, then GMs would show up and divy up mobs. Aside from Sullon Zek, I believe all servers followed the rules in the PnP. See above posts.

[Vianna]

Think that just owned any argument anyone ever had that training was ignored when reported on live. They made specific rules just for it. Rogean has said however that this server doesn't have the same Play-nice Policy as live. However, I think it is time to look at it for this server. Especially with the population growing and only going to grow more with the release of Velious. It was never a part of EQ as people remember it (If you did it on live and got away with it count yourself lucky a GM didn't catch ya).

People were not allowed to police zones with trains against each other. Accidental trains always happened because no one is perfect... But intentional training when discovered by GMs was punished. It is time to make this a punishable offense in all zones.

[timhutton]

Think that just owned any argument anyone ever had that training was ignored when reported on live. They made specific rules just for it. Rogean has said however that this server doesn't have the same Play-nice Policy as live. However, I think it is time to look at it for this server. Especially with the population growing and only going to grow more with the release of Velious. It was never a part of EQ as people remember it (If you did it on live and got away with it count yourself lucky a GM didn't catch ya).

People were not allowed to police zones with trains against each other. Accidental trains always happened because no one is perfect... But intentional training when discovered by GMs was punished. It is time to make this a punishable offense in all zones.

I could not agree more. Anyone saying intentional training was the norm is either lying, or just very lucky they were not caught.

It was NEVER sanctioned or allowed.

The fact it is allowed in VP here is another matter entirely and has ZERO basis on what occurred during live. So don't sugar coat it. This server obviously doesn't follow the live PnP, but that doesn't mean that intentional training in VP was ever "classic" as so many from a particular guild are trying to purport.

[Vianna]

From a bug thread posted by someone there. NOTICE the very first condition.

5.6.2 Acceptable CSRep Presence in Customer Service Limited Zones

The presence of Customer Service Representatives in Customer Service Limited Zones creates two undesired situations. First, players are more likely to ask for assistance in gameplay issues from the CS staff if a CS Rep is in the zone. Second, players are more likely to blame CS Representatives for any inconvenience they may experience if a CS Rep is in the zone. For these reasons mentioned above CS Reps must not be in Customer Service Limited Zones except under the following conditions:
•They are investigating a possible Exception Incident (Abuse, Disruption, or Exploitation) at the request of a player.
•They are investigating a possible bug at the request of a player for documentation purposes.
•They are removing a corpse from an object such as the ground, a wall, a tree, etc. according to Corpse Recovery Procedure (See 7.3 Corpse Recovery)
•They are unsticking a player stuck on the geometry (in an object, in a wall, etc). The player should be moved the minimum amount of distance necessary to unstick them from the geometry.
•They are summoning a corpse from a verified inaccessible area listed in 5.6.2.1 to a position of the player's choice within the zone.
•They are summoning a player from a verified inaccessible area listed in 5.6.2.1 in the Customer Service Limited Zone to a non-PvP area of Arena and then back to either the zone-in point of the Customer Service Limited Zone or to another player of the player's choice in the Customer Service Limited Zone.
•They are following Policy and Procedures concerning an Under the World Case. (See 7.13)

Thanks so much for doing the research and finding this. I knew I didn't remember training in VP for a reason

[timhutton]

From a bug thread posted by someone there. NOTICE the very first condition.

5.6.2 Acceptable CSRep Presence in Customer Service Limited Zones

The presence of Customer Service Representatives in Customer Service Limited Zones creates two undesired situations. First, players are more likely to ask for assistance in gameplay issues from the CS staff if a CS Rep is in the zone. Second, players are more likely to blame CS Representatives for any inconvenience they may experience if a CS Rep is in the zone. For these reasons mentioned above CS Reps must not be in Customer Service Limited Zones except under the following conditions:
•They are investigating a possible Exception Incident (Abuse, Disruption, or Exploitation) at the request of a player.
•They are investigating a possible bug at the request of a player for documentation purposes.
•They are removing a corpse from an object such as the ground, a wall, a tree, etc. according to Corpse Recovery Procedure (See 7.3 Corpse Recovery)
•They are unsticking a player stuck on the geometry (in an object, in a wall, etc). The player should be moved the minimum amount of distance necessary to unstick them from the geometry.
•They are summoning a corpse from a verified inaccessible area listed in 5.6.2.1 to a position of the player's choice within the zone.
•They are summoning a player from a verified inaccessible area listed in 5.6.2.1 in the Customer Service Limited Zone to a non-PvP area of Arena and then back to either the zone-in point of the Customer Service Limited Zone or to another player of the player's choice in the Customer Service Limited Zone.
•They are following Policy and Procedures concerning an Under the World Case. (See 7.13)

Thanks so much for doing the research and finding this. I knew I didn't remember training in VP for a reason

Nice, that really ties it all together. Where is that from?

It doesn't really leave us off any better than where we started though. All of this research and fact finding amounts to only one thing: showing that the people that keep trying to claim that VP was a trainable zone because of lack of CSR and that it happened on their server (it was for some reason different on other servers according to them) are just spewing bullshit. We all kind of knew that to begin with, the anecdotal evidence, lack of hard proof, and basic common sense more than make it clear that training was never allowed in VP or anywhere else.

That still doesn't change much because training is, for some reason, sanctioned here and the griefing is allowed to go on despite the majority of players being against it.

So I've got to ask the people that put the rule into place, why are we intentionally allowing this non-classic element to occur on this server? What is the reason? Is it to free up GM time? Is it to "spice" things up? Is it to create a scenario where only one guild gets to raid VP? What is the reason for this clearly non-classic ruling? An answer would be wonderful, even if it amounts to "because I said so". At least then we aren't using the "it was classic" cop-out and everyone knows why.

Let's get back to the title of this thread and get an answer please: Why is training allowed on p99 in veeshan's peak?

P.s. Before one of the RnF regulars comes around and says something like "it was all discussed and talked about in the past, go find it" I've already spent hours looking for it and found nothing, so please either spare me or help me out here: http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1060800&postcount=226

[Vianna]

From this guidebook is where it came from.


https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:mwa1WUHD2x4J:membres.multimania.fr/nesousxlanonyme/Guide.doc+&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShagfmo70G4Hr3AWsFpKz9hdXLtEnHCAv93fSB8 4bCEJWNq-hnaRnApYQCkHRflbQBNkhZtHNtPY9raKH_g6vktUWMPandZ1DE gOgEPM-_mNCNx0DVtsBWTWgw-TSplHi-l1kdR&sig=AHIEtbQg2wE_u2AbJw53D8lcWnuWktzBhg

[Cecily]

Why is training allowed on p99 in veeshan's peak?


Because it's kinda fun. For example, my favorite PK video from my old L2 clan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB9Z7bwyrss

[mtb tripper]

that explains why there are no new singer songwriters

[salimoneus]

Think that just owned any argument anyone ever had that training was ignored when reported on live. They made specific rules just for it. Rogean has said however that this server doesn't have the same Play-nice Policy as live. However, I think it is time to look at it for this server. Especially with the population growing and only going to grow more with the release of Velious. It was never a part of EQ as people remember it (If you did it on live and got away with it count yourself lucky a GM didn't catch ya).

People were not allowed to police zones with trains against each other. Accidental trains always happened because no one is perfect... But intentional training when discovered by GMs was punished. It is time to make this a punishable offense in all zones.

You guys can go on and on all day long over and over about how it was on live, but again it's completely irrelevant. This ain't live, they don't have the resources that Sony did to police every zone. Ain't gonna happen.

[Autotune]

Your initial comment on this thread is unnecessary and offers nothing aside from trollbait, in my opinion. You don't play here anymore by your own admission, so whats your interest in this thread?

Aside from trolling it that is.

My initial response is brutally honest based on my past experiences with Zeelot, which is better than 90% of the server (including some TMO members).

Zeelot is a nice guy, but when it comes to crushing his foes unmercifully he's going to do it. The only way it won't happen is if he decides to let another guild come in that he likes and wants to build them up.

My comments toward Getsome, are just that, comments to him.

My interest is the same as it always has been, to see the rest of p99 stop wasting their time on the forums and do something about it in game. Sirken even said the same thing (head gm), Rogean stated it probably wasn't going to change, it could, but would probably take Sirken wanting it along with other staff members (because they have to deal with all the bullshit that comes with policing the zone), and finally there is Zeelot who most people already know what he's about.

You guys keep posting this, hoping that you'll get your way and other people (including me) keep posting on these hoping that you'll do what needs to be done.

Let me put it to you like this. Ele is one of the biggest advocates in TMO for fair play and general happiness towards others, he is one of the nicest people in tmo, and he can't get Zeelot to change his ways (he isn't the only one either).

[timhutton]

My initial response is brutally honest based on my past experiences with Zeelot, which is better than 90% of the server (including some TMO members).

Zeelot is a nice guy, but when it comes to crushing his foes unmercifully he's going to do it. The only way it won't happen is if he decides to let another guild come in that he likes and wants to build them up.

My comments toward Getsome, are just that, comments to him.

My interest is the same as it always has been, to see the rest of p99 stop wasting their time on the forums and do something about it in game. Sirken even said the same thing (head gm), Rogean stated it probably wasn't going to change, it could, but would probably take Sirken wanting it along with other staff members (because they have to deal with all the bullshit that comes with policing the zone), and finally there is Zeelot who most people already know what he's about.

You guys keep posting this, hoping that you'll get your way and other people (including me) keep posting on these hoping that you'll do what needs to be done.

Let me put it to you like this. Ele is one of the biggest advocates in TMO for fair play and general happiness towards others, he is one of the nicest people in tmo, and he can't get Zeelot to change his ways (he isn't the only one either).

Most people that play this game are adults and have 0 interest in doing "what needs to be done" when it involves training/ruining other's gameplay on an emulated EverQuest server.

I personally am more than happy to not partake in the bullshit, so I don't. I have no interest in sinking to the same level as other man-children on a 14 year old video game.

That doesn't mean we can't converse and make threads like logical, reasonable adults to try to promote healthy changes and seek clarification on why things are the way they are. Step back and understand that not every thread is whining about "boohoo I don't get loots" because that's the way some people interpret this type of thing because its ALL they think about. Some people are more worried about classicness/fairness than who gets what.

Wanting griefing to stop and things to be classic has nothing to with caring about raid mobs or loot, and has everything to do with wanting to do what's best for the server, both immediately and in the long run.

Wish Zeelot's/others intentions were the same. As you so clearly stated, some people only care about "crushing his foes unmercifully". Fuck those people who gives a shit about them and their play experience? Sony sure didn't. http://i.imgur.com/UO4kuuE.jpg :)

[timhutton]

That highlighted paragraph basically defines people like Zeelot/Scerix to the letter. If I weren't so lazy and it wasn't so obvious I would search for instances where Zeelot has claimed things like "The sleeper will not be woken and I will train everyone who tries" or in this very thread where Scerix says he will continue to train anyone who steps foot inside VP.

People like that don't deserve to be allowed to play this game. It's unfortunate that not only are they allowed to, but the GMs don't mind as Sony used to. Sad state of affairs.

[NegaStoat]

You guys can go on and on all day long over and over about how it was on live, but again it's completely irrelevant. This ain't live, they don't have the resources that Sony did to police every zone. Ain't gonna happen.

Not that I'm high enough level to even worry about Veeshan's Peak, but I'm curious as to how much in resources would be required on the GM's part. On other private servers of all sorts, GM's aren't expected to police zones or be available 24/7. When players exploit or harass other players, Fraps recordings are all that's needed to put an issue forward. It's what those servers rely on for stating a case and offering solid proof. Hence, the work load is largely placed on the players instead of the GM's.

Why is it different here?

[quido]

I like how that policy thing distinguishes real world racial slurs from in-game ones lol

[Autotune]

Not that I'm high enough level to even worry about Veeshan's Peak, but I'm curious as to how much in resources would be required on the GM's part. On other private servers of all sorts, GM's aren't expected to police zones or be available 24/7. When players exploit or harass other players, Fraps recordings are all that's needed to put an issue forward. It's what those servers rely on for stating a case and offering solid proof. Hence, the work load is largely placed on the players instead of the GM's.

Why is it different here?

It's the same, but it still requires staff to review the "tapes" and then make a judgement call based on that alone.

The way it is now, players can just solve their own issues and go about their business leaving the volunteer staff to tend to the bulk of the server's population.

Less stress for Staff = staff last longer. The server's history is littered with staff becoming too involved with the endgame and ultimately ending up with staff quitting/fired.

p99 is probably more peaceful now than it has ever been, both staff wise and player wise.

[Autotune]

Most people that play this game are adults and have 0 interest in doing "what needs to be done" when it involves training/ruining other's gameplay on an emulated EverQuest server.

I personally am more than happy to not partake in the bullshit, so I don't. I have no interest in sinking to the same level as other man-children on a 14 year old video game.

That doesn't mean we can't converse and make threads like logical, reasonable adults to try to promote healthy changes and seek clarification on why things are the way they are. Step back and understand that not every thread is whining about "boohoo I don't get loots" because that's the way some people interpret this type of thing because its ALL they think about. Some people are more worried about classicness/fairness than who gets what.

Wanting griefing to stop and things to be classic has nothing to with caring about raid mobs or loot, and has everything to do with wanting to do what's best for the server, both immediately and in the long run.

Wish Zeelot's/others intentions were the same. As you so clearly stated, some people only care about "crushing his foes unmercifully". Fuck those people who gives a shit about them and their play experience? Sony sure didn't. http://i.imgur.com/UO4kuuE.jpg :)

Most people that play aren't able to get into VP now, or even in the next several months (even if they got what they wanted from this thread). They are a long way off from being able to raid that zone and have a great deal of gearing up to do. Perhaps most people should take it one step at a time and stop putting the buggy ahead of the horse.

There has never been a better time to raid on p99, if you think things are harder now than back when IB/DA were running around... you haven't been around very long or have had your head in the sand.

What's best for the server is determined by Rogean and Nilbog, followed by Sirken and his minions. They already stated they would need compelling evidence to chance what is in place and have deemed, so far, that the rules in place are what is best for the server. Looking at how things were prior to VP and how they have been after, I would say they are correct.

[timhutton]

Most people that play aren't able to get into VP now, or even in the next several months (even if they got what they wanted from this thread). They are a long way off from being able to raid that zone and have a great deal of gearing up to do. Perhaps most people should take it one step at a time and stop putting the buggy ahead of the horse.

There has never been a better time to raid on p99, if you think things are harder now than back when IB/DA were running around... you haven't been around very long or have had your head in the sand.

What's best for the server is determined by Rogean and Nilbog, followed by Sirken and his minions. They already stated they would need compelling evidence to chance what is in place and have deemed, so far, that the rules in place are what is best for the server. Looking at how things were prior to VP and how they have been after, I would say they are correct.

Rules are relevant to all players on the server, regardless of whether or not they are ready to raid VP. Everybody has a stake in making this server as fair and as classic as possible, not just the 2 or 3 guilds that care about raiding VP.

What do you mean by "harder"? Obviously Rogean/Nilbog/Sirken are calling the shots, which is exactly why this thread exists, to attempt to get questions answered and hold meaninful discussions.

[Llodd]

Rotations are the only way that other guilds that don't want to descend to the training level will see vp. Unfortunately staff refuse that, which is fair enough. And TMO, currently, have no interest in that.

I think it would be extremely good for the server if TMO would atleast consider opening up VP to other guilds on a rare basis. Say once every quarter (4 months) or something similar, just as a goodwill measure towards the servers community. They would still get to keep their phatlewts and any guild that genuinley wants to try and raid there more often they could still train the shit out of.

[Autotune]

Rules are relevant to all players on the server, regardless of whether or not they are ready to raid VP. Everybody has a stake in making this server as fair and as classic as possible, not just the 2 or 3 guilds that care about raiding VP.

What do you mean by "harder"? Obviously Rogean/Nilbog/Sirken are calling the shots, which is exactly why this thread exists, to attempt to get questions answered and hold meaninful discussions.

When I started, there were very few targets and two very competitive guilds. The amount of targets guilds were able to get was extremely limited. It was this way all the way through most of Kunark. IB started to burn out, made a mistake in vp and paid for it and then got fed up with staff/tmo. Now there is an open spot for a 2nd competitive guild, there are more targets and the overall tension in the raiding scene is pretty lax.

Those questions were answered pages ago, now you just have people circle jerking pages upon pages (like usual) and get no where because they didn't get the answers they wanted.

Rogean said the rules could change, but it wasn't likely and Sirken said to continue to try hashing it out in-game.

[Autotune]

BTW, a 2nd competitive guild doesn't have to try and be top dog. All you would have to do is get a guild together and just focus on being number 2. If you aren't a threat and have no interest in knocking off "The top contender" then I doubt seriously that TMO would treat you like they did IB/VD/BDA/FE/etc. This was the problem before, least from my experience in guild chat, guilds talked all the smack that IB and TMO did with each other and TMO treated them exactly like they treated IB.

Talk the talk...

[Vianna]

It's the same, but it still requires staff to review the "tapes" and then make a judgement call based on that alone.

The way it is now, players can just solve their own issues and go about their business leaving the volunteer staff to tend to the bulk of the server's population.

Less stress for Staff = staff last longer. The server's history is littered with staff becoming too involved with the endgame and ultimately ending up with staff quitting/fired.

p99 is probably more peaceful now than it has ever been, both staff wise and player wise.

While I am all for making the GMs job as easy as possible... The players should never govern completely on their own... Especially when it is the end game of the server. A lot of greed gets involved and no one wants to share. SO instead of being reasonable with each other people simply train and try to horde everything for themselves. Instead of working things out reasonably we end up with griefing in all guilds that enter that zone. Now I am not saying it is wrong because of the current rules in place foster that environment. A lot of guilds on top with the current training rules would do the same thing. It is hard to keep a rotation in place when a lot of people in game can only see stats and pixels and desires them. They all claim it isn't the loot it is for "Fun" but if those mobs were dropping clothe armor with no stats no one would train and everyone would work together taking turns killing the mobs for fun.

I know it would cause more work for some GMs to review fraps etc.... But it is better than letting the inmates run the asylum so to speak. I mean you have played on this server Stealin...You know there is never going to be guilds who reasonably will work together for a long period of time with the current rules in place. That is why a Play-nice policy was in place on live...That is why GMs stepped in and made guilds work it out. In the end you just lose people and guilds brag about running people off the server as if that is an accomplishment.

[timhutton]

When I started, there were very few targets and two very competitive guilds. The amount of targets guilds were able to get was extremely limited. It was this way all the way through most of Kunark. IB started to burn out, made a mistake in vp and paid for it and then got fed up with staff/tmo. Now there is an open spot for a 2nd competitive guild, there are more targets and the overall tension in the raiding scene is pretty lax.

Those questions were answered pages ago, now you just have people circle jerking pages upon pages (like usual) and get no where because they didn't get the answers they wanted.

Rogean said the rules could change, but it wasn't likely and Sirken said to continue to try hashing it out in-game.

Who brought up things being "harder" though besides yourself? I don't really understand what that has to do with this thread/training being allowed inside VP. Why are you talking about it in the first place?

In regards to what Rogean and Sirken said, neither answered the question in the title of this thread that we've all been asking for 20 pages now. Players don't know that answer unless it's been quoted elsewhere and nobody is linking it. We can only guess how/why training is allowed in VP. It could be to reduce petitions, it could be to recreate the 1-guild on top aspect of classic, it could be because unicorns came out of the sky and deemed it so.

We can sit and guess at it all day, but ultimately given that it's not classic, didn't happen on live, wasn't endorsed, and no reason was ever given by a GM (someone link something if I missed it please) the question is still on the table/relevant:

Why is training allowed on p99 in veeshan's peak?

Would be nice to know..

[timhutton]

While I am all for making the GMs job as easy as possible... The players should never govern completely on their own... Especially when it is the end game of the server. A lot of greed gets involved and no one wants to share. SO instead of being reasonable with each other people simply train and try to horde everything for themselves. Instead of working things out reasonably we end up with griefing in all guilds that enter that zone. Now I am not saying it is wrong because of the current rules in place foster that environment. A lot of guilds on top with the current training rules would do the same thing. It is hard to keep a rotation in place when a lot of people in game can only see stats and pixels and desires them. They all claim it isn't the loot it is for "Fun" but if those mobs were dropping clothe armor with no stats no one would train and everyone would work together taking turns killing the mobs for fun.

I know it would cause more work for some GMs to review fraps etc.... But it is better than letting the inmates run the asylum so to speak. I mean you have played on this server Stealin...You know there is never going to be guilds who reasonably will work together for a long period of time with the current rules in place. That is why a Play-nice policy was in place on live...That is why GMs stepped in and made guilds work it out. In the end you just lose people and guilds brag about running people off the server as if that is an accomplishment.

True. That's why raid rules exist in the first place, to protect the people raiding/playing.

The complete lack of rules just seems messy and lazy, especially without a good rationale behind why there are none in place (it gets further complicated when you consider other portions of the PnP such as ninja looting, etc HAVE been enforced inside of VP).

[NegaStoat]

Edit - nuked out this post as the one below me explains what's up. I had to do the research on my own into other ancient threads to determine what goal the server staff was after in leaving VP in the state it's in. It makes me sad, but I understand what's going on. I'll continue to enjoy playing on the server regardless.

[Autotune]

You'll have to do some research for the exact news post that implemented it, I'm sure that contains information. Or perhaps your fellow players will help. I'm not here to answer your question about why every policy exists, just to fix your misconceptions.

You're still comparing it to eqlive in the rest of your post. It's not an EQLive related policy. You should stop doing that.

[Joroz]

Last time i checked it was p99 and not eqlive making the rules on this server... if they want different rules in VP then those are the rules you have to play with. It's unlikely you will makes points good enough to change anything on these forums even with the good info linked... your best bet is make your points in the game.

[timhutton]

Autotune we've been over this, and I have a direct reply to that very post:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1060800&postcount=226

In fact I have a post here which basically outlines and states the confusion at hand:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1068797&postcount=689

Are we going in circles? Are you just trolling?

[Autotune]

Autotune we've been over this, and I have a direct reply to that very post:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1060800&postcount=226

In fact I have a post here which basically outlines and states the confusion at hand:

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1068797&postcount=689

Are we going in circles? Are you just trolling?

I honestly didn't read many responses to Rogean, so I never seen your reply. However, from what I remember, VP is the way it is due to the fact that IB and TMO were always petitioning raids and that VP had/has horrible pathing. I was there before it opened and was there when it was opened and the months following.

I am pretty sure both of those reasons were stated, one reason VP was supposedly delayed and then forced to roll for mobs was because of all the shit slinging months prior (supposedly).

[Ambrotos]

I honestly didn't read many responses to Rogean, so I never seen your reply. However, from what I remember, VP is the way it is due to the fact that IB and TMO were always petitioning raids and that VP had/has horrible pathing. I was there before it opened and was there when it was opened and the months following.

I am pretty sure both of those reasons were stated, one reason VP was supposedly delayed and then forced to roll for mobs was because of all the shit slinging months prior (supposedly).

Pretty much this is what I remember. I think Rogean even made a post. Now that there is FTE, and a lot has changed on the server I don't see why the zone should be a FFA. Haven't been able to read all 72 pages yet, so if I am wrong, then I am wrong.

[Vandy]

Prove it?

And you looked through Afterlife's archives please show me this too because I raided with Afterlife. Again prove it. Your word is shit here Tassle. As I said, this is your thread, you have the burden of proof.

Mith Marr was a cutthroat server. Anyone from Mith Marr that plays on P99 can attest to that. Why do you think Cats and Hats left the server? Now dont get me wrong. Afterlife did some stuff to make the community happy. Open Hate/Fear raids for free loots. But when it came to contested mobs it was get the hell out the way or get ran over. Aka VP training.

"
My character back in EverQuest was Terok Kneebiter (of the Ak'Anon Kneebiters), and I was one of the founders/officers/raid leaders/whatever during the Kunark and Velious era. I talked to a couple of my old raiding buddies, and to be honest nobody could remember any instances of any actual training. Most of the headbutting involved the free-for-all nature of raids back then, as the "rules" were very much first come, first serve. This lead to a lot of racing on server resets, the worst part of which was a lot of ambiguity about when one could be declared as having "won" the race. When both guilds showed up for the same boss with 30+ people at the same time, it was difficult to really figure out who had the rightful shot at it. Afterlife also had a tendency to want to go out of their way to try and stop us from catching up with them, so they would often race over to "entry level" stuff first, knowing that we couldn't really raid the harder bosses. We would often have to trick them by logging all of our characters near one boss, waiting for them to notice and race over, and then rapidly teleporting away towards our actual raid location.

One of the biggest "incidents" with us and Afterlife was one where Cats in Hats somehow had amassed a raid in Sebilis before AL, and in fact we had already cleared to Trakanon's room and were preparing to engage. Well apparently Afterlife had their entire raid waiting right outside the zone (40-50+ people back then), and they sent a "spy" down to feign death near our group, a female human monk named Delnatha if memory serves. When my guild engaged the raid boss, I guess their spy told the guild, as they zoned in their massive group all at the exact same second, which at least back then was guaranteed to crash the zone. When the zone came back up, everyone was transported to the zone-in, and then the server GMs were called in to "mediate" the dispute. Somehow they awarded the zone to Afterlife in a travesty of justice the likes of which the world had never seen, and if my timeline is correct, we decided to take the opportunity to transfer away pretty shortly after that. That incident in particular was certainly a big factor in our decision.

We went on to thrive on Drinal without the stifling influence of another uberguild either stepping on our hands as we pulled ourselves up, or grabbing our ankles and somehow pulling us down even when we did manage to beat them. So as much as we didn't get along, and I think Afterlife was going out of their way to hurt us as often as they could, there wasn't any training that I can remember. Certainly not in Veeshan's Peak.
"

[Tasslehofp99]

Pretty much this is what I remember. I think Rogean even made a post. Now that there is FTE, and a lot has changed on the server I don't see why the zone should be a FFA. Haven't been able to read all 72 pages yet, so if I am wrong, then I am wrong.

From what I've seen a lot of the major pathing issues in VP have been fixed, not completely sure but ut atleast seemed so. It really feels as if keeping VP a free for all at this point only serves to be beneficial to one group of players.


I guess I just feel as if racing for mobs in VP without training would be more fun and competitive at this point.

[timhutton]

Pretty much this is what I remember. I think Rogean even made a post. Now that there is FTE, and a lot has changed on the server I don't see why the zone should be a FFA. Haven't been able to read all 72 pages yet, so if I am wrong, then I am wrong.

I thought with one of the recent patches the pathing was fixed? Also the server has FTE shouts now and no-training just seems more classic/fair/logical. According to this thread/poll the majority would be in favor of it too.

I guess we only hope the powers that be have seen all of this and chime in with an opinion/update of some sort and explain why. *shrug*

There was some good conversation/fact-finding in this thread, highly recommend reading it all A+.

[quido]

I guess I just feel as if racing for mobs in VP without training would be more fun and competitive at this point.

Let's be honest with ourselves here and call it "poopsocking Phara Dar for a week straight."

[Nizzarr]

So -- They remove training in vp yet?

Would give a chance to other guild to poopsock something worth something.

also wts trak tooth mq if those are still worth anything!

[Tasslehofp99]

So -- They remove training in vp yet?

Would give a chance to other guild to poopsock something worth something.

also wts trak tooth mq if those are still worth anything!

What you want for dat trak tooth?

Also-- why not give VP without training a try for like a week or two and see what happens?

If the gms/devs are really against removing sanctioned training, then why don't we as players end it and see how it goes? I mean the worst that could happen is someone decides to poopsock and someone else decides to train them. Then we can atleast say we tried to do something good for the server, and if it doesn't work out then so be it. We could come to any number of agreements to improve the way VP is contested.

The current system is idiotic and only suits shitheads that enjoy griefing and ruining other players' play time. If TMO is worried about poopsockers then we can make training sockers a part of the agreement or something. I just don't see any other solutions other than gms changing the rules, which I dont think would be too unreasonable considering the immense support among players for it. Not to mention the fact that training was never ever sanctioned/accepted on live, which is a relevant fact if p99 is still attempting to mirror classic eq experience as stated on the p99 homepage.

[Tasslehofp99]

I thought with one of the recent patches the pathing was fixed? Also the server has FTE shouts now and no-training just seems more classic/fair/logical. According to this thread/poll the majority would be in favor of it too.

I guess we only hope the powers that be have seen all of this and chime in with an opinion/update of some sort and explain why. *shrug*

There was some good conversation/fact-finding in this thread, highly recommend reading it all A+.

I agree. I was happy to see so many players chime in and offer their opinions and information. Its good to see a quality discussion take place with minimal trolling and derailing.

[Godefroi]

Pretty much this is what I remember. I think Rogean even made a post. Now that there is FTE, and a lot has changed on the server I don't see why the zone should be a FFA. Haven't been able to read all 72 pages yet, so if I am wrong, then I am wrong.


by FFA you mean non-CSR ?


here what is at stake is a bad interpretation of the "non-csr". No player ever asked for a GM rez in VP and never will. What is wrong is one guild mass recruiting to train 24/7 in order to keep all high end raid loot of kunark to themselves. It's just not how the game was and how it's meant to be.

Keep VP the way it is fine and keep gearing lvl 1 keyed TMO warrior alt #7.

After nearly 3 years it's maybe about time things are set right. Hell, even Ele says it, can't be wrong. it's maybe time for other folks to discover the zone without going through the nazi circle jerks of one single guild.

Keep it classic and non CSR, but if you really want it classic, also follow the part where history shows no training happened the way it is currently. Make the zone contested, a race on mobilization, not a playground for social misfits at 5 am where the only purpose is grief.

[Alorae]

The current system is idiotic and only suits shitheads that enjoy griefing and ruining other players' play time.

This describes a lot of people on these kinds of servers unfortunately.

[Autotune]

No player ever asked for a GM rez in VP and never will.

Actually, I did.

I got charmed by Hoshkarr and killed some people, then he took me through a wall and killed me in the void. When I tried to get a rez, it didn't allow me in the zone and I didn't get my xp restored.

Nilbog laughed at me and I got to stay at lvl 59 for awhile.

[Arteker]

by FFA you mean non-CSR ?


here what is at stake is a bad interpretation of the "non-csr". No player ever asked for a GM rez in VP and never will. What is wrong is one guild mass recruiting to train 24/7 in order to keep all high end raid loot of kunark to themselves. It's just not how the game was and how it's meant to be.

Keep VP the way it is fine and keep gearing lvl 1 keyed TMO warrior alt #7.

After nearly 3 years it's maybe about time things are set right. Hell, even Ele says it, can't be wrong. it's maybe time for other folks to discover the zone without going through the nazi circle jerks of one single guild.

Keep it classic and non CSR, but if you really want it classic, also follow the part where history shows no training happened the way it is currently. Make the zone contested, a race on mobilization, not a playground for social misfits at 5 am where the only purpose is grief.

mobilization or just to popsock it for 7 days?.
Honestly visc , back in the day most popsocks we had with ib vd where in the last hour or two of the mob window.


there wasnt bad blood in that sense btw ib and tmo was a game to see who get fte . i recall at some popsock india was amusing IB and tmo with her trivia , was cool stuff no insults no shit just a friendly way to pass time .
perun pulled tola wich jumped and killed me.

wasnt biggy swaws rezed and actualy buffed me as i was looting corpse with few hps boom trak pop and he went for me because low hps agro thus tmo got awarded fte .

i got alot of jerk and jester tells from ib people mocking the way i got FTE, most funny one was daltheb wich said i made him lost a deal with perun over FTE .

Now with FE things changed u guys and i admit being challanegin tmo as number 1 guild isnt easy task to do it in a very very bad manner , pissing most guild .


As Stealin said FE could has been the second line guild raider of p99 without much effort a way to provide non people in tmo with loots and fun but instead of it u guys choose a confronhtation with tmo over vp.


FE didint lost agaisnt TMO in vp due to train wars but because only way to delay tmo from killing such dragons way and faster was to train them.

i got amused u guys killed druushk i realy was impressed and happy u guys did but in general afetr it and the attitude of most members u guys endin being a douches and anyone who can read forums can dig u guys claimed u woudl kick out tmo of vp.

didnt worked visceral and FE isnt the white knigth of the server , aswell get over it.


if u guys realy wanted to start over before IB took that 2 spot role wich imo will happen soon. make it rigth go and meet with tmo officers ask them if while our guild cannot compete with tmo u guys wouldn be inetrested to join and kill vp dragons together tmo.


make a deal like 1 drop of every dragon killed instead of going to alt go to a full FE member .


instead to cry in forums use ur brain and good will instead of being a forum cry non stop children and make the things in game.

[Arteker]

there is lots of tmo who advocate for a good will play nice to other guilds but while they are well respected great old members such elethia or xasten their opinion will never have the enough weigth to work because u guys still trashing most tmo players out of raid scenario.


stuff happening while racing for mob should stay there not to move to group enviroment and turn into a political shit fest people like tass want so much in in forums.


because face it people will go after loot and if it means Tmo is easiest way to get it they will go tmo and if they dont get in they will go Fe.


Honestly if u guys realy want to fixt and end all this fucking drama growth some balls make a public gathering in a open zone and let people read the debate and a possible fixt in game , no in a forum.

but of course this will never happen because its easier to cry in forums and ask for handjobs .

[Tasslehofp99]

mobilization or just to popsock it for 7 days?.
Honestly visc , back in the day most popsocks we had with ib vd where in the last hour or two of the mob window.


there wasnt bad blood in that sense btw ib and tmo was a game to see who get fte . i recall at some popsock india was amusing IB and tmo with her trivia , was cool stuff no insults no shit just a friendly way to pass time .
perun pulled tola wich jumped and killed me.

wasnt biggy swaws rezed and actualy buffed me as i was looting corpse with few hps boom trak pop and he went for me because low hps agro thus tmo got awarded fte .

i got alot of jerk and jester tells from ib people mocking the way i got FTE, most funny one was daltheb wich said i made him lost a deal with perun over FTE .

Now with FE things changed u guys and i admit being challanegin tmo as number 1 guild isnt easy task to do it in a very very bad manner , pissing most guild .


As Stealin said FE could has been the second line guild raider of p99 without much effort a way to provide non people in tmo with loots and fun but instead of it u guys choose a confronhtation with tmo over vp.


FE didint lost agaisnt TMO in vp due to train wars but because only way to delay tmo from killing such dragons way and faster was to train them.

i got amused u guys killed druushk i realy was impressed and happy u guys did but in general afetr it and the attitude of most members u guys endin being a douches and anyone who can read forums can dig u guys claimed u woudl kick out tmo of vp.

didnt worked visceral and FE isnt the white knigth of the server , aswell get over it.


if u guys realy wanted to start over before IB took that 2 spot role wich imo will happen soon. make it rigth go and meet with tmo officers ask them if while our guild cannot compete with tmo u guys wouldn be inetrested to join and kill vp dragons together tmo.


make a deal like 1 drop of every dragon killed instead of going to alt go to a full FE member .


instead to cry in forums use ur brain and good will instead of being a forum cry non stop children and make the things in game.

Look a few pages back I suggested an agreement that I think should be considered for the betterment of the raid scene on p99. No one even glances at it, I've even attempted to open up a personal/private discussion with zeelot and received no reply. We just need to end training, its bad for the server.

[Tasslehofp99]

there is lots of tmo who advocate for a good will play nice to other guilds but while they are well respected great old members such elethia or xasten their opinion will never have the enough weigth to work because u guys still trashing most tmo players out of raid scenario.


stuff happening while racing for mob should stay there not to move to group enviroment and turn into a political shit fest people like tass want so much in in forums.


because face it people will go after loot and if it means Tmo is easiest way to get it they will go tmo and if they dont get in they will go Fe.


Honestly if u guys realy want to fixt and end all this fucking drama growth some balls make a public gathering in a open zone and let people read the debate and a possible fixt in game , no in a forum.

but of course this will never happen because its easier to cry in forums and ask for handjobs .


You have to understand a lot of the bad feelings between guilds comes from the shitty stuff certain.members do to opposing guilds, like training, accessing private guild forums, and trash talk as you mentioned.


Your guild has had VP uncontested going on 2 years, give or take a month of contention from IB/VD//bda/fe. The rest of the server isn't going to play TMO's game in VP, most of them will just stop playing p99 once they realize what the end game is like in vp.

The last 2 years the server pop has naturally fluctuated with some people coming and going for various reasons. The one constant through all of this is a gross and greedy monopolization of the raid scene by one guild or another. Flash forward to the present, server is currently thriving with a healthy population. There are actually guilds going after and killing raid bosses besides the top guild, and they're having more success than ever before. Once all of these players get to the point where VP is the next step for them, under the current rules they are left with few options. MANY lf these players will quit or move on to other games when they realize what the final raiding zone is like on p99. Its happened in the past and will surely happen again, lets fix this before velious is out.


Besides, training to me is a sign of a bad player/guild who can't win a race with honesty.

[Clark]

The current system is idiotic and only suits shitheads that enjoy griefing and ruining other players' play time. If TMO is worried about poopsockers then we can make training sockers a part of the agreement or something. I just don't see any other solutions other than gms changing the rules, which I dont think would be too unreasonable considering the immense support among players for it. Not to mention the fact that training was never ever sanctioned/accepted on live, which is a relevant fact if p99 is still attempting to mirror classic eq experience as stated on the p99 homepage.

http://s22.postimg.org/t4pdu30dd/pic1.jpg

time for some rule changin

[Tasslehofp99]

Lets just consider the legitimate reasons for and against training being allowed in VP.

Legitimate reasons for allowing training: initially the pathing in VP was so bad that quite literally a guild pulling a dragon did not know what to expect in terms of mlb behavior and pathing. This created many scenarios where training happened often and many petitions were filed. The workload on the GMs would be immense, especially when you add in the fact that FTE disputes were common as well.

Those two concerns realistically can't be eliminated completely but surely the addition of fte shouts and improvements made to pathing recently should alleviate these issues for the most part, especially if intentional training was to be enforced.


Legitimate reasons against training in VP: its purely a griefing tactic used to waste players time and prolong competition over mobs until one guild gains an upper hand over the other simply by having more trainers available. This is not true competition.

The next reason would be that training was never allowed on live in any zone.
Its just not classic.

Yet another would be that less douschebaggery between guild (such as training) would lead to a more enjoyable raid scene for all.

Another reason would be that it would force raiding guilds to more strategically prioritize targets, which theoretically, would allow other guilds a higher chance at attempting raid bosses outside of VP.


Feel free to add reasons for or against sanctioned training in VP, as long as they are legitimate.


I chose to leave out poopsocking as a legitimate reason for allowing training because that isn't a legitimate reason to allow training. If a guild is willing to sit on a dragons spawn for an extended period of time then more power to them. I find it amusing that folks are arguing for a non classic rule to be enforced in order to prevent a classic stratedgy that was employed by many guilds on live. Im not saying i support poopsocking or enjoy it, but if guilds wanna do that then that is their choice. Assholes shouldn't be allowed to train them because their guild lacks the heart to do the same. That just amounts to being less competitiveness between guilds as well as the bad blood which is evident on this thread among others.

[quido]

How else is Tasslehof going to get a Crown of Rile? You wouldn't be seeing all this crap if his previous attempts had worked out. Whatever it takes!

[Arteker]

tmo never had vp unconsted 2 years vp , we have to deal with ib vd bda fe trains all over to the point the mentality of train wars sticked deep and hard and alots of people got pissed angry and want to strike back .

as i said do it in game not forums , do it in game because no tmo will take forums serius unless its a gm official ruling.
p99 forums are full of shit on a level i havent seen in 13 eyars of everquest players since furor anger issues over paladins sks back in the day .

[Tasslehofp99]

How else is Tasslehof going to get a Crown of Rile? You wouldn't be seeing all this crap if his previous attempts had worked out. Whatever it takes!

One could say the same thing about anyone who supports sanctioned training in VP.

As I've said in previous posts this goes beyond any single player or guild. People don't want training allowed on a classic eq emu server, get over it. You had your fun for 2 years griefing people freely, methinks its time for a change.

Stop rants and flaming my post pls jeremy.

[Tasslehofp99]

Lets just consider the legitimate reasons for and against training being allowed in VP.

Legitimate reasons for allowing training: initially the pathing in VP was so bad that quite literally a guild pulling a dragon did not know what to expect in terms of mlb behavior and pathing. This created many scenarios where training happened often and many petitions were filed. The workload on the GMs would be immense, especially when you add in the fact that FTE disputes were common as well.

Those two concerns realistically can't be eliminated completely but surely the addition of fte shouts and improvements made to pathing recently should alleviate these issues for the most part, especially if intentional training was to be enforced.


Legitimate reasons against training in VP: its purely a griefing tactic used to waste players time and prolong competition over mobs until one guild gains an upper hand over the other simply by having more trainers available. This is not true competition.

The next reason would be that training was never allowed on live in any zone.
Its just not classic.

Yet another would be that less douschebaggery between guild (such as training) would lead to a more enjoyable raid scene for all.

Another reason would be that it would force raiding guilds to more strategically prioritize targets, which theoretically, would allow other guilds a higher chance at attempting raid bosses outside of VP.


Feel free to add reasons for or against sanctioned training in VP, as long as they are legitimate.


I chose to leave out poopsocking as a legitimate reason for allowing training because that isn't a legitimate reason to allow training. If a guild is willing to sit on a dragons spawn for an extended period of time then more power to them. I find it amusing that folks are arguing for a non classic rule to be enforced in order to prevent a classic stratedgy that was employed by many guilds on live. Im not saying i support poopsocking or enjoy it, but if guilds wanna do that then that is their choice. Assholes shouldn't be allowed to train them because their guild lacks the heart to do the same. That just amounts to being less competitiveness between guilds as well as the bad blood which is evident on this thread among others.

tmo never had vp unconsted 2 years vp , we have to deal with ib vd bda fe trains all over to the point the mentality of train wars sticked deep and hard and alots of people got pissed angry and want to strike back .

as i said do it in game not forums , do it in game because no tmo will take forums serius unless its a gm official ruling.
p99 forums are full of shit on a level i havent seen in 13 eyars of everquest players since furor anger issues over paladins sks back in the day .

Hey art thanks for your input bud, as for your insistance to 'do it in game and not on the forum" not quite sure what you mean by that. As for official GM ruling, this thread was meant to open up the discussion about the possibility of that happening. Unfortunately I have tried to discuss a treaty in VP or some kind of friendly no training agreement but haven't gotten a respons from zeelot. So.unfortunately it comes down to what the gms think/feel about the topic. If training is decided to be allowed for good well that is unfortunate and will make a lot more players unhappy than outlawing training would make people happy.

[quido]

Stop rants and flaming my post pls jeremy.

I'm getting tired of hearing you say this when pointing out the blatant reality of your situation and motivation is considered inflammatory by you. I reserved my uncensored comments for other threads. I think the discussion merits pointing out that trying to change the rules was your second or third choice out of the possible courses of action.

[quido]

It was only when you failed at succeeding within the rules, after enormous effort, that you took it upon yourself to try and change the rule. This is relevant.

You then claimed that you were above lowering yourself to operating within the current rules, despite actively participating in the train wars in VP.

I think this effort is a cop-out. See my anesthesia comment in the other thread to see the non-server-chat version of what I have to say!

[Tasslehofp99]

I'm getting tired of hearing you say this when pointing out the blatant reality of your situation and motivation is considered inflammatory by you. I reserved my uncensored comments for other threads. I think the discussion merits pointing out that trying to change the rules was your second or third choice out of the possible courses of action.

You should also note that prior to making this poll thread I created a thread on FE's forums entitled "vp treaty discussion" or something along those lines. Tiggles can confirm this since he spends so much time on our forums.

I also sent zeelot a pm in an attempt to open lines of communication between our guilds. I saw the direction this thread was going in and never received a reply from zeelot. You're attempts at derailing the.thread ultimately amount to rants over the fact that so many people seemingly disagree with the way things are inside of VP on p99.


I've tried the alternatives, because in my opinion (and many others) training is unacceptable in eq and really equates to nothing more than shitty newbs griefing people.

[quido]

You seemed Ok with it when you guys had a realistic chance at succeeding.

[Arteker]

Hey art thanks for your input bud, as for your insistance to 'do it in game and not on the forum" not quite sure what you mean by that. As for official GM ruling, this thread was meant to open up the discussion about the possibility of that happening. Unfortunately I have tried to discuss a treaty in VP or some kind of friendly no training agreement but haven't gotten a respons from zeelot. So.unfortunately it comes down to what the gms think/feel about the topic. If training is decided to be allowed for good well that is unfortunate and will make a lot more players unhappy than outlawing training would make people happy.

i meean no one in tmo will take you seriusly if u try to do it usin forum and demagogie .

i bet even sirken rogean and other would rather be happier if instead to bring them more headaches u take steps straigh in game .

About we the devil if tomorrow ur name poped in tmo forum app im going to tell u one thing and im being honest lots of people would rage and be bitter and say no fuck this guy , other wave would say if he earn his spot he takes it .


the sad thing tass is not the fact other guilds cannot compete in vp rigth now train or no train because lets face it and be honest as u said tmo prety much domain on vp dragons is total and realy its not a challange unless we realy pull very slow numbers.

the sad thing this server has been stuck in for so much time locked in a age wich actualy didint developed the concept of raidin to a next level .


the very first expansion designed to have multiple locations wich allowed to like 2 guilds to take in higher scenarios and to provide other 3 or 4 minor ones with raid scenario for loot was velious.


but of course back in the day in live in kunark most casuals would be happy just to get a piece of fear hate and maybe to finish a sky quest in his whole career .

when kunark arrived before tmo was even top 3 in the guild chain most people would go to guild like vessica die based in the chances for alot of week planar raids in hate and fear.

sadly 3 years later of kunark that sense of omg i got me first planar loot is gone. we have a server wich abuse emchanics where not even tsted back in the day such aoe chardok or fear. and the fact if u event cannot get some loot by ur dkp or whatever system use a guild u can do it using farming and pps.


if tomorrow sirken roegan would say velious is inc in for xxx.xxx be ready, first thing u and other raiders should do is not complain in forums is seek tmo ib fe div whatever guild u think is viable to raid and develop some common rules .


u forgot in live GMs or guides couldnt not pop ever and in general most ignored alot of shit happening it was player base who actualy organized and set up every server life .


some server are in the memory of people with good feelings rotations wich worked, and other are filled with shit abuse trains and alot of abuse by higher guilds.

its up to raiders to do something in game but no by train or claim such rule dont work and cry to a gm but to figure a common ground with other players and always will be someone breaking or fucking it because there isnt such thing is perfect.

[Tasslehofp99]

It was only when you failed at succeeding within the rules, after enormous effort, that you took it upon yourself to try and change the rule. This is relevant.

You then claimed that you were above lowering yourself to operating within the current rules, despite actively participating in the train wars in VP.

I think this effort is a cop-out. See my anesthesia comment in the other thread to see the non-server-chat version of what I have to say!

You're bringing up past events which have shaped my opinions that you call a cop out.

I fail to see how they are relevant in this thread, or how your opinion over the matter carries any more weight than myself or anyone else in this thread.


Keep your personal digs at me or my guild to yourself or in rants and flames, its pretty simple. That stuff has no place in this discussion.

[Tasslehofp99]

Lets just consider the legitimate reasons for and against training being allowed in VP.

Legitimate reasons for allowing training: initially the pathing in VP was so bad that quite literally a guild pulling a dragon did not know what to expect in terms of mlb behavior and pathing. This created many scenarios where training happened often and many petitions were filed. The workload on the GMs would be immense, especially when you add in the fact that FTE disputes were common as well.

Those two concerns realistically can't be eliminated completely but surely the addition of fte shouts and improvements made to pathing recently should alleviate these issues for the most part, especially if intentional training was to be enforced.


Legitimate reasons against training in VP: its purely a griefing tactic used to waste players time and prolong competition over mobs until one guild gains an upper hand over the other simply by having more trainers available. This is not true competition.

The next reason would be that training was never allowed on live in any zone.
Its just not classic.

Yet another would be that less douschebaggery between guild (such as training) would lead to a more enjoyable raid scene for all.

Another reason would be that it would force raiding guilds to more strategically prioritize targets, which theoretically, would allow other guilds a higher chance at attempting raid bosses outside of VP.


Feel free to add reasons for or against sanctioned training in VP, as long as they are legitimate.


I chose to leave out poopsocking as a legitimate reason for allowing training because that isn't a legitimate reason to allow training. If a guild is willing to sit on a dragons spawn for an extended period of time then more power to them. I find it amusing that folks are arguing for a non classic rule to be enforced in order to prevent a classic stratedgy that was employed by many guilds on live. Im not saying i support poopsocking or enjoy it, but if guilds wanna do that then that is their choice. Assholes shouldn't be allowed to train them because their guild lacks the heart to do the same. That just amounts to being less competitiveness between guilds as well as the bad blood which is evident on this thread among others.

Bump, keeping relevant posts visible to folks who aren't willing to read through the thread. Although there has been some decent input given by a wide variety of players and if you really care about this topic I would suggest taking a look.

[Tasslehofp99]

So, no one can come up with legitimate reasons for training to be allowed in VP?


I mean so many folks seem to support it (about 110) yet not one legitimate reason for sanctioned training has been brought up aside from the one I mentioned in my above post.

It also Seems like there are way more people against sanctioned training and way more legitimate reasons for why it should be done away with.


Sup guys.

[Alorae]

i meean no one in tmo will take you seriusly if u try to do it usin forum and demagogie .

i bet even sirken rogean and other would rather be happier if instead to bring them more headaches u take steps straigh in game .

About we the devil if tomorrow ur name poped in tmo forum app im going to tell u one thing and im being honest lots of people would rage and be bitter and say no fuck this guy , other wave would say if he earn his spot he takes it .

the sad thing tass is not the fact other guilds cannot compete in vp rigth now train or no train because lets face it and be honest as u said tmo prety much domain on vp dragons is total and realy its not a challange unless we realy pull very slow numbers.

the sad thing this server has been stuck in for so much time locked in a age wich actualy didint developed the concept of raidin to a next level .

the very first expansion designed to have multiple locations wich allowed to like 2 guilds to take in higher scenarios and to provide other 3 or 4 minor ones with raid scenario for loot was velious.

but of course back in the day in live in kunark most casuals would be happy just to get a piece of fear hate and maybe to finish a sky quest in his whole career .

when kunark arrived before tmo was even top 3 in the guild chain most people would go to guild like vessica die based in the chances for alot of week planar raids in hate and fear.

sadly 3 years later of kunark that sense of omg i got me first planar loot is gone. we have a server wich abuse emchanics where not even tsted back in the day such aoe chardok or fear. and the fact if u event cannot get some loot by ur dkp or whatever system use a guild u can do it using farming and pps.

if tomorrow sirken roegan would say velious is inc in for xxx.xxx be ready, first thing u and other raiders should do is not complain in forums is seek tmo ib fe div whatever guild u think is viable to raid and develop some common rules .

u forgot in live GMs or guides couldnt not pop ever and in general most ignored alot of shit happening it was player base who actualy organized and set up every server life .

some server are in the memory of people with good feelings rotations wich worked, and other are filled with shit abuse trains and alot of abuse by higher guilds.

its up to raiders to do something in game but no by train or claim such rule dont work and cry to a gm but to figure a common ground with other players and always will be someone breaking or fucking it because there isnt such thing is perfect.

Jesus.

[Godefroi]

Arteker you must be either drunk or high as fuck, you just totally missed my points.

Since this is a valid discussion we shall just ignore Jeremy's rant and flame, he will just state you want "pixels". As a cave dweller with 6 level 60s, he's the one currently benefiting most of the non classic state of VP, don't expect him to vouch for any classic changes if they mean his e-penis will shrink a little bit.

I am bound right outside VP and will train and eventually die until I reach level 59 as many times it's necessary to keep anyone outside of VP

You cannot blame it on FE, we went to VP to compete because our competition had told us there was no other way. With 100% of their active roster keyed having the server uncontested, TMO's bet to war with FE was safe. VP is easy when you pull 60 players against 25.

However you can't be a white knight as a raider, if you fell for that propaganda I'm sorry for you, no guild on p99 is there to be white knights, they can help out sometimes, do rezes, help for a shaman or cleric epic #4353 since all their members have their 3rd alt epic'd, but as soon as you will get on their way to content they really need, you will get shit stomped. That's the way raiding is in EQ1. However that can mean an undercover train there or there, not offering buffs/rezes to competitors, leapfrogging, but it never was training for the sake of wiping entire encounters with the approval of GMs.

Since project1999 tries to be as classic as possible what is at stake is acknowledging the current state of VP just isn't. The fact that velious came out so quickly after only top guilds had reached VP makes it that way. Non-CSR on live meant no GM assistance, it didn't mean open war for grief. Elethia or Xast wouldn't support it otherwise.

You should keep guilds out of it, just because things happened the wrong way doesn't mean they shouldn't be fixed. It's about how it happened on live, since it's what the staff is interested about for their server.

[Autotune]

So, no one can come up with legitimate reasons for training to be allowed in VP?


I mean so many folks seem to support it (about 110) yet not one legitimate reason for sanctioned training has been brought up aside from the one I mentioned in my above post.

It also Seems like there are way more people against sanctioned training and way more legitimate reasons for why it should be done away with.


Sup guys.

Already stated why it's allowed (with staff backing), doesn't matter if you think it's legitimate or not.

[Tasslehofp99]

Arteker you must be either drunk or high as fuck, you just totally missed my points.

Since this is a valid discussion we shall just ignore Jeremy's rant and flame, he will just state you want "pixels". As a cave dweller with 6 level 60s, he's the one currently benefiting most of the non classic state of VP, don't expect him to vouch for any classic changes if they mean his e-penis will shrink a little bit.



You cannot blame it on FE, we went to VP to compete because our competition had told us there was no other way. With 100% of their active roster keyed having the server uncontested, TMO's bet to war with FE was safe. VP is easy when you pull 60 players against 25.

However you can't be a white knight as a raider, if you fell for that propaganda I'm sorry for you, no guild on p99 is there to be white knights, they can help out sometimes, do rezes, help for a shaman or cleric epic #4353 since all their members have their 3rd alt epic'd, but as soon as you will get on their way to content they really need, you will get shit stomped. That's the way raiding is in EQ1. However that can mean an undercover train there or there, not offering buffs/rezes to competitors, leapfrogging, but it never was training for the sake of wiping entire encounters with the approval of GMs.

Since project1999 tries to be as classic as possible what is at stake is acknowledging the current state of VP just isn't. The fact that velious came out so quickly after only top guilds had reached VP makes it that way. Non-CSR on live meant no GM assistance, it didn't mean open war for grief. Elethia or Xast wouldn't support it otherwise.

You should keep guilds out of it, just because things happened the wrong way doesn't mean they shouldn't be fixed. It's about how it happened on live, since it's what the staff is interested about for their server.

Good points made, some folks don't understand that this discussion transcends any guild tags or individuals. This is also a relevant conversation moving forward and after velious is out as well, incase those same people don't realize.

[Tasslehofp99]

Already stated why it's allowed (with staff backing), doesn't matter if you think it's legitimate or not.

Please review all relevant posts before making an inaccurate assertion.

[Agatha]

TL DR version for people like me "i want to be left alone while farming dragons'

[Tasslehofp99]

So, no one can come up with legitimate reasons for training to be allowed in VP?


I mean so many folks seem to support it (about 110) yet not one legitimate reason for sanctioned training has been brought up aside from the one I mentioned in my above post.

It also Seems like there are way more people against sanctioned training and way more legitimate reasons for why it should be done away with.


Sup guys.

bump, srsly?

Home from work now. My weekend forumquest session is over, back to the game.

[Beaniron]

Why is training allowed in any zone at all to begin with? We all know that trains do happen from time to time because of a botched pull or an ill-ready raid force (or in the case of Unrest, horrible pathing), but NEVER in Classic was DELIBERATELY training another group with the intention of wiping them allowed.

So why is it an exception here?

[Laugher]

Allow me to shorten that for you from 75 pages to one post (never been to VP on this sever but this is what I've gathered from this post):

-pathing is weird in VP
-some people have used odd ways around said issue
-training someone and then looting the trained party's loot after they killed something is not permitted as seen in an earlier post
-the GM staff although awesome does not get paid to sit around and answer 13478107 petitions a day about trains in VP (where the players already know pathing can be a b)

in summary:

-players are to moderate their own experience in VP
-if the staff required themselves to answer every single petition resulting from VP trains (incidental or not) or the otherwise issue of pathing with all other petitions it would seem that they would probably stay up all night every night and never sleep
-while some guilds work with training others have chosen to take to the forums as opposed to working together, the opinion here is that PvE=racing one another/mobilizing faster as opposed to mowing the competition over with trains
*edit*-the csr policy here is not the same as live

conclusions?
-dont go into VP unless you plan to play trainquest or die
-try to make lots of friends that are monks
-play a class with fd to stay out of danger (or create it if you so fancy) :D
-/guildwar ftw:)

edit:I think I read somewhere that theres a possibility of the sleeper being unable to be woken up and just thought I'd add that I think that would be cool :) I want a mask of tinkering for a lesser unreasonable price!

edit edit: I don't think the issue of millions of petitions was stated as a reason for the staff not to get involved in VP training but I assumed that it probably would factor in haha

[Tasslehofp99]

Allow me to shorten that for you from 75 pages to one post (never been to VP on this sever but this is what I've gathered from this post):

-pathing is weird in VP
-some people have used odd ways around said issue
-training someone and then looting the trained party's loot after they killed something is not permitted as seen in an earlier post
-the GM staff although awesome does not get paid to sit around and answer 13478107 petitions a day about trains in VP (where the players already know pathing can be a b)

in summary:

-players are to moderate their own experience in VP
-if the staff required themselves to answer every single petition resulting from VP trains (incidental or not) or the otherwise issue of pathing with all other petitions it would seem that they would probably stay up all night every night and never sleep
-while some guilds work with training others have chosen to take to the forums as opposed to working together, the opinion here is that PvE=racing one another/mobilizing faster as opposed to mowing the competition over with trains
*edit*-the csr policy here is not the same as live

conclusions?
-dont go into VP unless you plan to play trainquest or die
-try to make lots of friends that are monks
-play a class with fd to stay out of danger (or create it if you so fancy) :D
-/guildwar ftw:)

edit:I think I read somewhere that theres a possibility of the sleeper being unable to be woken up and just thought I'd add that I think that would be cool :) I want a mask of tinkering for a lesser unreasonable price!

edit edit: I don't think the issue of millions of petitions was stated as a reason for the staff not to get involved in VP training but I assumed that it probably would factor in haha

/guildwar doesn't work, but it needs to be implemented.

[Laugher]

Lol yeah seems like it might help in this sitch or at least provide another option

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

/guildwar doesn't work, but it needs to be implemented.

PvP Veeshan an Sleepers both! Or /guildwar for easy fix.

If not , than enjoy the trains...even if trains turn "illegal" they will still occur whether intentional or not.

PvP or /guildwar would be nice + fun.

But sadly it looks like trains or poop socking will be the norm on this server.

GL

[Autotune]

Allow me to shorten that for you from 75 pages to one post (never been to VP on this sever but this is what I've gathered from this post):

-pathing is weird in VP
-some people have used odd ways around said issue
-training someone and then looting the trained party's loot after they killed something is not permitted as seen in an earlier post
-the GM staff although awesome does not get paid to sit around and answer 13478107 petitions a day about trains in VP (where the players already know pathing can be a b)

in summary:

-players are to moderate their own experience in VP
-if the staff required themselves to answer every single petition resulting from VP trains (incidental or not) or the otherwise issue of pathing with all other petitions it would seem that they would probably stay up all night every night and never sleep
-while some guilds work with training others have chosen to take to the forums as opposed to working together, the opinion here is that PvE=racing one another/mobilizing faster as opposed to mowing the competition over with trains
*edit*-the csr policy here is not the same as live

conclusions?
-dont go into VP unless you plan to play trainquest or die
-try to make lots of friends that are monks
-play a class with fd to stay out of danger (or create it if you so fancy) :D
-/guildwar ftw:)

edit:I think I read somewhere that theres a possibility of the sleeper being unable to be woken up and just thought I'd add that I think that would be cool :) I want a mask of tinkering for a lesser unreasonable price!

edit edit: I don't think the issue of millions of petitions was stated as a reason for the staff not to get involved in VP training but I assumed that it probably would factor in haha

Pretty much this.

Most people that don't understand this either don't know about what happened or have forgotten about all the times petitions were put in (with fraps) and most went unanswered. When petitions would finally get answered, the ones who got punished would bitch about all their unanswered petitions, then the other would get punished, then they would bitch about their others and so on.

Sirken is old enough, GM wise, and Ambrotos was raiding at that time as well so both are well aware of how things were and how they most likely would be in VP. Rogean definitely knows and Nilbog knows, but he really doesn't care about this aspect of the game.

[quido]

Tasslehof, maybe no one wants to legitimately engage you in a discussion at this point because your brush aside valid reasons as irrelevant like a total dunce. No one is seriously responding to you because you're stupid and annoying.

[Tiggles]

Tasslehof, maybe no one wants to legitimately engage you in a discussion at this point because your brush aside valid reasons as irrelevant like a total dunce. No one is seriously responding to you because you're stupid and annoying.

Lefts RnF this post please.

[Servellious]

Funny how training is ok then all of the sudden dispelling people isn't.

[quido]

I don't really see how the two are related, Kagok.

[heartbrand]

PvP Veeshan an Sleepers both! Or /guildwar for easy fix.

If not , than enjoy the trains...even if trains turn "illegal" they will still occur whether intentional or not.

PvP or /guildwar would be nice + fun.

But sadly it looks like trains or poop socking will be the norm on this server.

GL

Shame there isn't a server like that... O wait

[Tasslehofp99]

Lefts RnF this post please.

Only people RNF'ing are you and Jeremy, begone trolls.

[quido]

saying things Tasslehof doesn't want to hear or accept = RnFing

despite the noninflammatory manner in which they're said, and how relevant they are

[Godefroi]

Tasslehof, maybe no one wants to legitimately engage you in a discussion at this point because your brush aside valid reasons as irrelevant like a total dunce. No one is seriously responding to you because you're stupid and annoying.

77 pages, clearly no one wanted to answer this thread.

You're stupid and annoying pat pat

[quido]

tu ne comprends pas, ma petite cherie

[Turp_SmokinPurp]

Shame there isn't a server like that... O wait

Yea it is shame there isn't. If by the "o wait" you're talking red server. That is PvP everywhere and most do not like PvP (especially on blue) not to mention countless other problems that would cause not only the community QQ but with grief , cc , etc the list goes on. (AND MOST "BLUEBIE" do not want that).
But in the case of VP and Sleepers Tomb (which is topic) not all players are looking to raid end game or take the time to get keyed , and if they do they know how the training sucks and is not that fun unless you can participate, so a majority of the "Higher end players" probably wouldn't mind PvP > Train wars.
That is all I was saying and totally IMO.

[Alarti0001]

Funny how training is ok then all of the sudden dispelling people isn't.

Exploiting a broken game mechanic that has been bug reported is relevant to this discussion how?

[Godefroi]

Exploiting a bug and abusing of the status of a "non-CSR" zone is exactly the same.

Why not just all zone into VP and freely talk about RMT and account trading in OOC just because it's non-CSR? Iirc, Training on P99 is illegal just like RMT and account trading, am I rite?

[timhutton]

Why do people keep using the argument that if training weren't allowed in VP that petitions would increase to some ungodly number? How would it be any different than any of the other encounters in the game?

Is it due to the assumed poor pathing that would cause "accidental" trains? Is it due to the fact players would have to be careful around each other?

Why are we under the assumption that players have zero obligation to make an effort to be courteous to one another and not do dumb shit that could, in any possible light, be construed as intenational training?

Yes, when you're racing to mobs you have to be careful and watch out for others, you can't just rip shit through the zone with 20 guardian wurms on you and then complain when somebody Frapses or screenshots you and says you were training. Accidental or not, use common sense and logic and it shouldn't be an issue.

Don't use it and you should be punished appropriately, how's it different than anywhere else?

[timhutton]

Visceral I don't get your signature.. you're trying to make fun of someone for being fat and lonely, but there is a member of the opposite sex in that very picture.

Unless it's like his sister or something...

[Vianna]

Exploiting a broken game mechanic that has been bug reported is relevant to this discussion how?

Exploiting mob aggro to kill other people I guarantee was never a game mechanic that the developers intended people to use. Also exploiting other mechanics such as rez boxes and FD to drop aggro on other people. It's kinda funny you seem ok with those...but have issue with dispelling. When people say get rid of training you scream "No CSR" and trains was classic...yet when you guys first dispell people then get it returned to you...You guys seek CSR support under the guise of "Broken mechanic".

Wasn't most of the arguments in this very thread saying trains would cause petitions for GMs in a no CSR zone as one of the reasons it was allowed ? Yet you petitioned in the same zone. The Irony is strong.

[Alarti0001]

Exploiting mob aggro to kill other people I guarantee was never a game mechanic that the developers intended people to use. Also exploiting other mechanics such as rez boxes and FD to drop aggro on other people. It's kinda funny you seem ok with those...but have issue with dispelling. When people say get rid of training you scream "No CSR" and trains was classic...yet when you guys first dispell people then get it returned to you...You guys seek CSR support under the guise of "Broken mechanic".

Wasn't most of the arguments in this very thread saying trains would cause petitions for GMs in a no CSR zone as one of the reasons it was allowed ? Yet you petitioned in the same zone. The Irony is strong.

Is dispel currently working as intended? Is FD currently working as intended?

Remove that foot from your mouth. FD is not a known bug. Casting a dispel on someone out of group is. GM's say training in VP is legal, GM's say exploiting bugs are not legal.

This isn't really that difficult. Why is it so hard for you?

You need to seriously step up your thought processes if we are ever going to get married. I can't accept you as you are.

[Joroz]

getting trained in a non-csr zone sucks... don't petition just deal with it... training on purpose because the zone is non-csr is fucking stupid and an unfortunate side effect of the non-csr stance.

This zone can still be non-csr if they redefine the stance on training/greifing to match the rest of the zones. Trains will still happen but you can definitely tell if you got an accidental train or one on purpose in this place. Fraps can prove the intent and discipline can be handled the same as training/greifing anywhere on the rest of the server. Problem solved.

[Vianna]

Is dispel currently working as intended? Is FD currently working as intended?

Remove that foot from your mouth. FD is not a known bug. Casting a dispel on someone out of group is. GM's say training in VP is legal, GM's say exploiting bugs are not legal.

This isn't really that difficult. Why is it so hard for you?

You need to seriously step up your thought processes if we are ever going to get married. I can't accept you as you are.

Remove your foot from your mouth first genius. You and others took the stance that the zone was No-CSR and that training being banned would cause extra petitions. Yet watching Tiggles streams you were the guys complaining about people "Training to grief". Yet you defend it. Your guildies first dispelled people in VP and it got returned to them after Xerxes called out in Vent that he was getting dispelled by one of your members. What did you do ? Immediately petitioned it. Huge Irony there. Something you don't feel should be in VP and that you can't control with numbers...You petitionquest..Even after your guild were the ones doing it first.

It's kinda funny to watch your spin on everything Alarti. How you really can't see how big a Hypocritical windbag you are is beyond comprehension. =)