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Nytch
08-25-2013, 02:33 PM
I assume 1h is the way to go while tanking for bash but would picking up a nice 2h wep be worth it?

Durothil Skyreaver
08-25-2013, 03:01 PM
I assume 1h is the way to go while tanking for bash but would picking up a nice 2h wep be worth it?

You can get a decent 2hb or 2hs for like 200pp. Baton of Faith is 30/40 and cheap.

Tecmos Deception
08-25-2013, 03:51 PM
Not sure why bash is something you would want more as a tank (you're ever NOT the tank?) than a dps. With the questionable value of ac on p99 and pal lies having stuns, I'd say just go 2hb and swap in a shield if you really really need a bash.

A1551
08-25-2013, 04:25 PM
What Tecmos said. Bash is great if youre a warrior and don't have a ton of stuns or you're fighting something resistant that casts spells, but as a paladin whos not rich the answer is pretty much baton of faith for 200pp and never look back until you can afford something higher end -- and most of those higher end options short of epic are also 2hb.

You keep aggro with spells and you can stun. There may be situations in which you want a sword/shield combo for bashing but it's going to be very rare. The only other potential argument for the shield is the extra ac or maybe hp -- even with how terrible paladin dps is in a typical exp group the ac from a shield isn't going to come close to equaling the benefit of just killings things faster. See some of the ac threads for more info ;)

Lorraine
08-25-2013, 05:12 PM
Not sure why bash is something you would want more as a tank (you're ever NOT the tank?) than a dps. With the questionable value of ac on p99 and pal lies having stuns, I'd say just go 2hb and swap in a shield if you really really need a bash.

You keep aggro with spells and you can stun. There may be situations in which you want a sword/shield combo for bashing but it's going to be very rare. The only other potential argument for the shield is the extra ac or maybe hp -- even with how terrible paladin dps is in a typical exp group the ac from a shield isn't going to come close to equaling the benefit of just killings things faster. See some of the ac threads for more info ;)


Our first stun comes into play at level 30. It also has a refresh timer. Until then, the only way to interrupt casters is bash. And the earliest one learns that it's important to interrupt specific spells, the better their life (and their group members life) will be.

And it kinda starts early. By the time you hit Unrest and decide to take on hags, well timed bashes can really save a lot of nasty nukes from landing.

Learn to identify spell schools and spells in particular from their spell particles. Sometimes it might be worth to stop a dispel from possibly knocking a valuable buff (if you happened to top slot symbol, or top slotted levi and you're about to plummet from a dispel) than interrupting a nuke. Weapon swap for a bash and then switching back to your 2hand is something that you can master.

tl ; dr

-Start learning early.
-Mobs that sit in your face and try to channel are static during the duration. Position yourself behind it, and bash then.
-In case of CBAing to carry a shield, as soon as you see channeling, position yourself along with the melee dps. Push will probably do the rest.

You'd be surprised how many high level tanks CBA to save their bash/kick and move behind a caster who's channeling in order to have higher chances of interrupting.

kaev
08-25-2013, 07:00 PM
Good post Lorraine.

Also worth mentioning that classic stuns are not super quick to cast compared to lower level fast-cast nukes. 2.0 sec seems fast, until you're actually trying to interrupt a L30 wiz-casting mob and you have even the slightest bit of lag or latency. Bash is HUGE for a Paladin, it is one of the features of the Fiery Avenger (the original epic) and the Fiery Defender (the "real" Paladin epic) that they allow Bash while using a 2hander. Further, talk all you like about how "broken" AC is here, a 25 AC shield does make a noticeable difference in damage taken over the course of an xp session in the mid-levels.

A1551
08-26-2013, 05:41 AM
Good post Lorraine.

Also worth mentioning that classic stuns are not super quick to cast compared to lower level fast-cast nukes. 2.0 sec seems fast, until you're actually trying to interrupt a L30 wiz-casting mob and you have even the slightest bit of lag or latency. Bash is HUGE for a Paladin, it is one of the features of the Fiery Avenger (the original epic) and the Fiery Defender (the "real" Paladin epic) that they allow Bash while using a 2hander. Further, talk all you like about how "broken" AC is here, a 25 AC shield does make a noticeable difference in damage taken over the course of an xp session in the mid-levels.

I don't want to quote numbers because they are so hard to quantify with AC (again, see any of the numerous ac test posts floating around) but the one thing they all more or less agree on is the benefit of 25 ac going to be fairly small at best. Yes, over the course of an entire evening that ac and extra stun time will add up, but so does all that lost dps. Sword/board -- it certainly looks cooler, and stunning mobs with shield bash is pretty cool, and there definitely ARE situations where the 1 hander/bash will be advantageous. But for most mobs <50 killing them even slightly faster (and a baton of faith for 200pp is going to be significantly more than "slightly" higher dps than any 1 hander in its price range) is going to usually be the better choice. By a wide margin.

As a quick example take hags in unrest. The way to kill them is to make them die fast not try and play defensively (stun all their spells and outlast them over a long fight). Shield bash will fail a lot. Stuns will resist. None of that matters if the mob is dead. My pally did some soloing vs hags in unrest -- the baton of faith absolutely trounced ghoulbane, for example. Also, the baton with its fairly long swing time lets you cast spells in between swings very reliably (like stuns, undead dds etc) without losing any dps.

I'm not saying the 1 hander/shield doesnt have its place, but the answer to the OPS question is a resounding "yes, get a baton of faith and blow things up, and no, 1 hander/shield is not necessarily the way to go even if you're tanking"

Lorraine
08-26-2013, 08:37 AM
As a quick example take hags in unrest. The way to kill them is to make them die fast not try and play defensively (stun all their spells and outlast them over a long fight). Shield bash will fail a lot. Stuns will resist. None of that matters if the mob is dead. My pally did some soloing vs hags in unrest -- the baton of faith absolutely trounced ghoulbane, for example. Also, the baton with its fairly long swing time lets you cast spells in between swings very reliably (like stuns, undead dds etc) without losing any dps.

I'm not saying the 1 hander/shield doesnt have its place, but the answer to the OPS question is a resounding "yes, get a baton of faith and blow things up, and no, 1 hander/shield is not necessarily the way to go even if you're tanking"


My Ghoulbane owned Hags and also Baton of Faith when it came to tanking them at the mid20s. Because you know, I didn't neglect my dexterity. Let's not play the he-said-she-said game.

Sub30 you have NO stuns and the Undead DD for the mana price is negligent when you can use that mana to heal during downtime thus pull faster. Bash stuns a mob and allows the real dps classes (like all those mega twinked rogues and monks) to actually do their job.. like dps.

Heals don't get resisted or partially resisted. Nukes more often than not do, especially at these levels where MR debuffs aren't that strong.

Estu
08-26-2013, 11:09 AM
Regarding the value of shield AC - according to this parse (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1081237&postcount=7), you take about 2-3% less damage if you equip a shield. Granted, this is just one parse, only one hour long per situation, and it's a level 51 character. But just putting it out there. Both sides here have valid points. I used to be very much of the opinion that sword+shield made more sense because you're a TANK, not a DPS, and so you should be TANKING. But really, you need to weigh the value of that damage mitigation versus the value of whatever increased DPS you can do (there are also damage caps that will come into play on a 30/40 weapon and limit your DPS for many levels, which no one has mentioned yet). It would be helpful to do some parsing and see how much damage you're really doing with each situation, and compare it against the damage the other DPS classes in your group are doing.

kaev
08-26-2013, 01:34 PM
Regarding the value of shield AC - according to this parse (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=1081237&postcount=7), you take about 2-3% less damage if you equip a shield. Granted, this is just one parse, only one hour long per situation, and it's a level 51 character. But just putting it out there. Both sides here have valid points. I used to be very much of the opinion that sword+shield made more sense because you're a TANK, not a DPS, and so you should be TANKING. But really, you need to weigh the value of that damage mitigation versus the value of whatever increased DPS you can do (there are also damage caps that will come into play on a 30/40 weapon and limit your DPS for many levels, which no one has mentioned yet). It would be helpful to do some parsing and see how much damage you're really doing with each situation, and compare it against the damage the other DPS classes in your group are doing.

Gotta laugh out of "... the other DPS classes ... " there, heh. With the 16/27 Sword of the Morning and the 25ac/50hp Charred Guardian Shield both so cheap and accessible I definitely advocate using them over the Baton of Faith when you're tanking for a group that includes any recognizable DPS class.

Seriously, the difference in damage output is so small that the extra HP buffer, reduced damage intake, and additional interrupts are worth more than the ca. 1 DPS diff you'll see in actual practice. Unless, of course, your group so totally overpowers the content that you don't actually need to tank with anything tougher than a half-naked Druid alt, in which case do whatever makes your groupmates happy (sing songs on vent, tell dirty jokes, do silly roleplay with randoms in ooc) because you have nothing meaningful to contribute anyway except maybe stunning a runner once in a while.

Paladin is NOT a DPS class, only the Cleric has less damage output potential than the Paladin. Arguing about a difference that is less than 1% of any half-adequate group's damage aggregate output is just silly.

Estu
08-26-2013, 01:52 PM
Gotta laugh out of "... the other DPS classes ... " there, heh.

Whoops, that was a typo. I don't consider paladins a DPS class.

Nytch
08-26-2013, 02:17 PM
I have a Sword of Morning and the Shield of Stalwart Seas. Just wondering if that shield is worth rolling and ERU, or if I should just sell it and make a half elf and get a different shield for the easy epic come Velious. If I was going to be using a 2 hander the whole time I would play the Elf if I was going to be bashing I would keep the Erudite.

Lorraine
08-26-2013, 02:55 PM
I have a Sword of Morning and the Shield of Stalwart Seas. Just wondering if that shield is worth rolling and ERU, or if I should just sell it and make a half elf and get a different shield for the easy epic come Velious. If I was going to be using a 2 hander the whole time I would play the Elf if I was going to be bashing I would keep the Erudite.



Gotta keep one thing in mind.
You won't get discriminated due to your race. You WILL get discriminated due to your class. So basically just pick something you'd much rather stare at.

The elf can bash as well, just need a different shield.
Nature's Defender is a bonus, and a very nice one.
Also the plate helm graphics on half elves pre-Velious are not hideous.

Fiery Avenger ain't that hard to do, depending on the size of your wallet or the strength of your guild. Books are out there for sale now, and the only weekly spawn you gotta put some effort into getting will be Miragul.

Nytch
08-26-2013, 03:34 PM
That's the reason why I asked about the 1h or 2h. If it isn't going to matter I would just sell off the Stalwart Seas and go with the half elf. But I wanted to keep a hold of it in case the shields did make a huge difference.

Lorraine
08-26-2013, 05:43 PM
That's the reason why I asked about the 1h or 2h. If it isn't going to matter I would just sell off the Stalwart Seas and go with the half elf. But I wanted to keep a hold of it in case the shields did make a huge difference.


I'm just giving you the 'pep talk'.
Whether it matters or not, is subjective and almost always up for debate.

For example, shields were upgraded to be somewhat appealing a lot later down the road. Project1999 will never reach that milestone, so it will not be something to ponder (unless the devs decide to ninja-patch that). I, as a paladin, never actually used them much even when they were upgraded, mainly due to having access to pretty much every drop I wanted/needed, and already using a variety of rune procing 2handed swords, and later epic 1.5 and 2.0. Others, with different live experience than mine, will offer another perspective over the subject.

Another example, in regards to race-deity choice / starting stats choice. Again, it's subjective, and eventually up to the player him-herself. I, again as a paladin, almost always advise someone to go with dwarf/stamina, human/stamina, or halfelf/stamina. Why? Because if you are currently unsure whether or not you will raid and how hardcore will you do it if you do it, a combination of the above will look a lot better on your application at the "Inglourious Mystical Entry" website than Erudite/charisma-intelligence. But again, if you are 'already' in said guild, or you have no ambition of getting BiS in each slot or standing over the corpses of every boss multiple times, that advise might not sound very appealing.

tl ; dr This isn't WoW. Using a shield will not make that huge of a difference over not using one. Still, keep the following in mind

-Carrying a shield in your bags will allow you to equip a 1h slash / blunt / pierce and keep your weapon skills up as you level down the road.
-Carrying a shield in your bags will allow you to swap for a bash then switch back to your 2hander if that is your preferred play style.
-If you have a shield equiped while you're standing somewhere LFGing, some people might take that into consideration when they're looking for tanks (WoW mentality but it still exists).

Try to benefit from everything the class offers. Use them to your maximum advantage. It might sound like a lot of work to have to swap gear mid-fights, or during pulls, but eventually, if you don't have a regular group that you're leveling up with, it will eventually pay you off. Because when people see you holding a stein for example, while you're trying to pacify mobs for a safer pull, at first they will be intrigued and ask you about it. And once they realize you're doing this to make things easier/safer for them, then it's gonna leave a very good and lasting impression.
Because later on, when people see 'Nytch LFG' , they won't be bothered by the fact that you play a 40% exp penalty class, but instead they will try to group with you because you're a fucking good tank that knows what it's doing.

A1551
08-27-2013, 12:30 AM
...With the 16/27 Sword of the Morning and the 25ac/50hp Charred Guardian Shield both so cheap and accessible I definitely advocate using them over the Baton of Faith when you're tanking for a group that includes any recognizable DPS class.

Seriously, the difference in damage output is so small that the extra HP buffer, reduced damage intake, and additional interrupts are worth more than the ca. 1 DPS diff you'll see in actual practice...Paladin is NOT a DPS class, only the Cleric has less damage output potential than the Paladin. Arguing about a difference that is less than 1% of any half-adequate group's damage aggregate output is just silly.

Re - pally and dps. Pallys are terrible DPS, this is true. At low levels, however, theyre fairly competitive, unless yur definition of a "half -adequate group" is a bunch of twinked out monks and rogues. A 30/40 weapon with double attack is still a 30/40 weapon with double attack, even with a pally swinging it, and will put out a significantly larger amount of dps than a 16/27. Mobs at lower level (ie exping sub 50) hp really isnt that big. I dunno where you got your "less than 1%" number from but even with a pallys crappy dps I gotta question it.

Normally this is the point where I'd grab one of my chars and do some parsing and post evidence to prove my point -- sadly I don't have access to a paladin in the appropriate level range to do that at this time. I will say this, if you think the difference between a 16/27 and a 30/40 is 1 dps I'm not quite sure what I can say besides go download a parser because they aren't even close.

Look, shield/1 hander SHOULD be the way to go with a pally. Shields should be an awesome defensive aid that make you way more tanky at the cost of some dps. It's so painfully logical that its hard to believe its not true. Sadly, this is classic EQ, and they did some bone-headed things. They did fix it eventually, but not in the timeframe of this server. Here, shields let you bash (undeniably useful) and take slightly less damage. Emphasis on the slightly. Using a 30/40 2 hander lets you do a lot of damage at only a very very slight reduction in your tankability, and losing the option of shield bashes (which are useful vs casters). The upgrade in your DPS isn't slight. Its a BIG upgrade. Literally an entire order of magnitude higher than the mitigation lost, easily. And you can still ghetto bash with the 2-hander if yur not lazy.

*note as mentioned it is true the SoB will be dmg capped for a while which makes it less good till the cap comes off..but certainly by level 30 there is no comparing them.

And I once again wanna reiterate this isnt to say 2 hander is ALWAYS the way to go. If your group is a chanter with a chamred pet two twinked out monks an epic rogue one healer and you, an you're fighting casters, then yeah, youd wanna sword/board. Your DPS would be irrelevant. But for most cases (non casters, groups with ok dps only) that 2hander is gonna be the winner and it wont be close.

To the OP -- to summarize, the more DPS you have in a group and the more people in the group, the more valuable the shield will be as your overall dps contribution goes down. In high dps groups I'd recommend the shield. Just keep in mind the benefit of that shield is pretty small, and your personal DPS will be way higher with even a cheap 2 hander, so in smaller groups or groups with light to moderate dps you're most likely better off with the 2 hander.

Lorraine
08-27-2013, 03:13 AM
Re - pally and dps. Pallys are terrible DPS, this is true. At low levels, however, theyre fairly competitive, unless yur definition of a "half -adequate group" is a bunch of twinked out monks and rogues. A 30/40 weapon with double attack is still a 30/40 weapon with double attack, even with a pally swinging it, and will put out a significantly larger amount of dps than a 16/27. Mobs at lower level (ie exping sub 50) hp really isnt that big. I dunno where you got your "less than 1%" number from but even with a pallys crappy dps I gotta question it.

Normally this is the point where I'd grab one of my chars and do some parsing and post evidence to prove my point -- sadly I don't have access to a paladin in the appropriate level range to do that at this time. I will say this, if you think the difference between a 16/27 and a 30/40 is 1 dps I'm not quite sure what I can say besides go download a parser because they aren't even close.

Look, shield/1 hander SHOULD be the way to go with a pally. Shields should be an awesome defensive aid that make you way more tanky at the cost of some dps. It's so painfully logical that its hard to believe its not true. Sadly, this is classic EQ, and they did some bone-headed things. They did fix it eventually, but not in the timeframe of this server. Here, shields let you bash (undeniably useful) and take slightly less damage. Emphasis on the slightly. Using a 30/40 2 hander lets you do a lot of damage at only a very very slight reduction in your tankability, and losing the option of shield bashes (which are useful vs casters). The upgrade in your DPS isn't slight. Its a BIG upgrade. Literally an entire order of magnitude higher than the mitigation lost, easily. And you can still ghetto bash with the 2-hander if yur not lazy.

*note as mentioned it is true the SoB will be dmg capped for a while which makes it less good till the cap comes off..but certainly by level 30 there is no comparing them.

And I once again wanna reiterate this isnt to say 2 hander is ALWAYS the way to go. If your group is a chanter with a chamred pet two twinked out monks an epic rogue one healer and you, an you're fighting casters, then yeah, youd wanna sword/board. Your DPS would be irrelevant. But for most cases (non casters, groups with ok dps only) that 2hander is gonna be the winner and it wont be close.

To the OP -- to summarize, the more DPS you have in a group and the more people in the group, the more valuable the shield will be as your overall dps contribution goes down. In high dps groups I'd recommend the shield. Just keep in mind the benefit of that shield is pretty small, and your personal DPS will be way higher with even a cheap 2 hander, so in smaller groups or groups with light to moderate dps you're most likely better off with the 2 hander.



You are contradicting yourself a bit, if you didn't notice.
Paladins at low levels having 'fairly competitive' DPS with other classes means anything bellow 20, when the damage cap effectively cripples every melee class, and even then others already have double attack and knights don't.

Can't be talking about 'low levels' and Sub-50 in the same sentence. Classic high level dungeons included Lower Guk, Nagafen's Lair and Kedge Keep. If you think there aren't mobs in there with quite a lot of HPs you're mistaken. They have less HP than 'some' Kunark ones, but they still have quite a lot compared to the toons fighting them.

Monks with Jmace/KD will blow your DPS out of the water. Rogues with Serpent's Tooth / Bone Razor will do the same. You consider them 'twinked' for P1999 measures? How about Tstaff's / Runed Fighter Staff and Ragebringers, because that's probably 'twinking' at the moment. Both classes have higher Offence - Higher melee skills than you. They are also attacking mobs from behind, which means they don't get blocked/dodged/parried.

Knight classes biggest advantage is the ability to hold agro on harder and higher level group content than warriors. As a knight at 46, you can tank Efreeti exp groups even when there are monks/rogues/enchanters that are 10 levels higher than you in your group. That's 99,9999% on your spells and the fact that even when you get resisted, the threat generation is so high, that the other classes can still do their jobs without much issues.

When you're tanking mobs that are -2/+5 of your level range, then 2handed or 1h/shield is irrelevant. Because either will suck, and suck royally.

kaev
08-27-2013, 11:01 AM
...
When you're tanking mobs that are -2/+5 of your level range, then 2handed or 1h/shield is irrelevant. Because either will suck, and suck royally.

Slight exxageration there, but pretty much the key point. When you're tanking, it's you the mobs will dodge/parry/riposte, your DPS will go from crap to crap-minus. When you're tanking the only things that matter are holding agro and not dying. Also, the hate (threat) from 2handers is quite noticeably less than from 1handers with the same damage output, unless your 2hander outclasses your 1hander for damage by a fair bit it'll contribute less to your hate generation, and that will matter at times spells or no.

A1551
08-28-2013, 03:58 PM
I am not contradicting myself its just our definition of low levels doesnt match. Which is fine (although I did define exactly what I meant in my post). Now i did specifically state in my thread i was referring to level < 50 because I knew it could be ambiguous. I also admitted in the post anyone who was damage capped would not be better off with the BoF, that isn't in question. At very high levels, mobs HP jumps dramatically making fights much longer per mob, increasing the value of survivability while paladin dps increases don't really keep up even with great weapons. That's where my dividing line comes from.

So moving on. I was grouped with a paladin last night, who lucky for me, had both a SOTM/shield and a Baton of faith. I was on a level 52 warrior, he a lvl 51 paladin (Durothil). We were at BNB for grinding in a group of varying compositions for maybe 4-5 hours. So heres the situation and some real numbers, in a real exp group with a good mix of twinked and nontwinked players.

First, the paladins dps WAS competitive with a BoF. It was NOT competitive in any way shape or form with the SOTM. Our dps order was generally me (52 warrior), chanter pet (charmed bat) then paladin with BoF. I was dual wielding (usually bloodpoints or SCD/bloodpoint) with an fbss and swift like the wind. He had a sky haste belt, baton of faith, and swift like the wind. The crappy sky belt mind you not the 40% one. Group also had another warrior (Filbus) who was swinging a lammy and wurmslayer and was around lvl 48-49, I don't know his haste item but he also had SLTW obviously. Durothil was outdpsing this warrior consistently with the baton of faith and pretty close to me. Later we had a rogue join the group (Chevey) nonepic nontwinked lower level (45-46) and once again durothils DPS was actually slightly higher.

To put some numbers on it, I was parsing in around 30-35 dps, he was parsing in around 26-30 with the BoF. The SoTM? 16-20 dps, dropping him from competitive for #1 to dead last. So there are some numbers for everyone.

The point here is that while paladin DPS isn't the best, it is far from insubstantial, and in many cases will trump boarding for the tiny extra mitigation. Using a good ratio, cheap, 2 hander like the BoF is a major DPS increase (about 35-50% for duro last night!) at a very minor mitigation loss (1-3%) plus the potential loss of shield bash (only partially valid due to ghetto bashing). Obviously a good paladin will have to weigh these pros and cons based on their groups situation and pick appropriately -- but it is absolutely true that killing mobs faster reduces your overall damage taken per mob. And a 35-50% increase in dps is nothing to sneeze at.

A1551
08-28-2013, 04:16 PM
Slight exxageration there, but pretty much the key point. When you're tanking, it's you the mobs will dodge/parry/riposte, your DPS will go from crap to crap-minus. When you're tanking the only things that matter are holding agro and not dying. Also, the hate (threat) from 2handers is quite noticeably less than from 1handers with the same damage output, unless your 2hander outclasses your 1hander for damage by a fair bit it'll contribute less to your hate generation, and that will matter at times spells or no.

Kaev I agree with what you are saying here. As evidenced by the actual numbers I posted right above the dps bonus for the BoF over a SOTM (as an example) is pretty damn big, and even with the aggro bonus for 1 handers a few people have empirically shown here you're still going to come out ahead on meelee dps threat generation with a 35-50% dps increase. The SOTM does have a good aggro proc, but so does a lamentation staff (also cheap, also an excellent ratio)

Lorraine I also agree with most of what youre saying. Noone is debating that a knights use is in being good at holding aggro, even at ridiculous level ranges (ie the freeti example). Obviously your DPS in that situation will be absolute crap and totally inconsequential. But honestly, so will your tanking. If you're tanking those at 46 effectively its because theyre being slowed, in which case a bard or shaman or ranger or really anyone could do the same thing. The shield AC mitigation as a 46 pally fighting the freeti camp is not doing anyone any favors, although the shield bash might. You gave kind of an extreme example, and no one is arguing that different situations may not warrant the shield. But take a more normal exp group where most mobs are DB to everyone and everyone is within 4-5 levels of each other and theres only a few dpsers or god forbid a duo/trio (in which paladins can be amazingly effective) and in most cases the paladins probably going to come out ahead with the high damage 2 hander.

Lorraine
08-28-2013, 06:41 PM
That example was used to highlight the threat generation abilities of the Knight (hybrid) classes when compared directly to the other predominant tanking class (the warrior). As a class, we don't live or die by weapon DPS, and we don't live or die by praying for procs. Paladins can tank (pick up, hold, and control mobs) with no weapons equipped.

As far as the level range goes, during classic there were some specific level ranges for different camps. Frenzy for example, needed a 44lv tank if you had no slower/CC. Efreeti needed a 46+ level tank and a slower/CC was semi mandatory. A paladins great strength is in the fact that the class allows you to snap and hold aggro on multiple mobs at a time, regardless if they are slowed or not and that's due to high threat generation non-damaging spells. I can tank one mob while my enchanter debuffs/slows a mezed mob to oblivion. Tab/switch targets, cast a couple stuns while still holding the other and when my current mob gets bellow 20% I switch to the next one. Warriors can't do that unless the mobs are rooted. Shadowknights feel limited due to avoiding using spells that have DoTs built in.

When it comes to duo/trio, it's a no brainer that you kinda want to have the highest DPS weapon possible equipped. And even in this scenario, it is still situational / subjective.

When the OP starts to get into the interesting level ranges, where enchanters can keep weaponized/max hasted charmed pets around, and when Calm/Root and camp splitting can be vital -- his DPS will not make or break the group. His survivability and multitasking though will make a difference.

Like, in your example.
Were you tanking?
Was the paladin tanking?
Were you killing bats? If yes, who ever was tanking, was he getting stunned frequently? etc etc

There has to be some common ground here, if you're trying to reach some conclusions to this.

Sword of the Morning is pure dope for tanking. It also allows you to have a Sarnak Battle Shield equipped. Starting for low 50s and while you move up in the ladder of dungeons, unless you are able to finish Fiery Avenger and subsequently Fiery Defender, that combo can carry you all the way from tanking in SolB to Karnors to Charasis and to Sebillis. Because sooner than later you will be called to split Ice Cometing or Harm touching group of mobs. And that's when HPs / Resists will start playing a big part in your everyday life.

I'm all for increasing Paladin DPS. The thing is though, when decent mid50s groups can almost break 200 group DPS, your 35-50% increase on the 20DPS tank is actually less important than what it appears to be.


Closing out, I'm not even sure where we're taking this discussion to. I guess my basic principle and point here, is that DPS for a Paladin is not one of his strengths. It's one of our weaknesses. The sooner the OP and basically anyone that wants to play the class understands it, the better it will be. Start building on the class strength. Understand it, accept it, embrace it.
Maybe the 'discrimination' hybrids suffer from, is basically due to the fact that people wake up one day and decide to twink a paladin/ranger/bard and play them like they would twink and play a rogue/monk. And inevitably things get messy.
If you doubt me, go check Loraens post about his comparison between Sakuragi and Snoogan, and his conclusions. It's a fact that a group can get faster and safer exp by using a paladin as a tank instead of a warrior. But some people just can't see past that "oh noes 40% exp penatliez"...

Well, OP, that's the monkey on your back. Make them understand. And they will end up appreciating it.

Nytch
08-29-2013, 01:36 PM
Thank you Lorraine and everyone else. I played an Enchanter/Warrior on live and had a couple Pally friends so was always curious about the class. I have a Wiz here as well that I use for soloing when I don't have time to group which is why I picked a Pally to play when I have time to group for the social aspect of things. I remember people arguing over 1h and 2h DPS/Threat generation for warrior in another thread which is what prompted me to ask about the Pally. Basically if it's a full group it really doesn't matter which I use because the DPS increase is going to be a minimal gain as long as we have a well rounded group and anything 2-4 people go with 2h for the DPS increase.

susvain0362
08-30-2013, 07:39 PM
For tanking aim for a staff of the mourning. Always se blind for aggro, mobs only run when you aren't on thebaggro list when you cast it so don't pull with it. Use a bow to pull, auto attack and use the quick blind spell. Then taunt and stun if ya need to. I fucking love pally tankingbsonmuch more than a war. You can never lose aggro even to epic'd rogues in the 20s if you do it right.

For dips get a baton of faith with fuss and you are fucking beast.

susvain0362
08-30-2013, 07:41 PM
Pally tanking is just fucking awesome because you keep the best fucking agro wit spells. I use blind a lot more than stuns in groups. Once you learn mobs wont run with blind and you know it'll never happen its straight money.

doeda
08-30-2013, 10:26 PM
I always prefer 2h over a 1h mostly due to the high delay = less dmg taken from a mob from swinging slower
tried to compete for dps in a group...beat the bard and I was happy but super twinked out kids weren't pulling aggro from me ever, goal complete...just really wish 2H bash was possible, then I would never touch a 1h/shield combo ever again

Tecmos Deception
08-30-2013, 11:01 PM
Closing out, I'm not even sure where we're taking this discussion to.

I don't know where it is going to, but I know it continued to this point because there are two camps here.

Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."

The other camp is "that's swell, but the reality is that data suggests AC is bonkers on this server + you can do key spell interrupts with bash even if you don't wear a shield 24/7... so you might as well benefit from the extra damage of a 30/40 web that is much cheaper than any comparable 1h+shield combo."

No one is denying that bash to interrupt casters is great or that a tank's job is to keep aggro while taking limited damage. What people are denying is that using a 1h and a shield truly accomplishes those things noticeably better than a 2hb with stun spells and/or shield switches does, especially when 2hb has the added perks of dealing more damage (which in turn reduces damage taken because stuff isn't alive for as long) and costing MUCH less.

kaev
08-31-2013, 07:09 AM
I don't know where it is going to, but I know it continued to this point because there are two camps here.

Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."

The other camp is "that's swell, but the reality is that data suggests AC is bonkers on this server + you can do key spell interrupts with bash even if you don't wear a shield 24/7... so you might as well benefit from the extra damage of a 30/40 web that is much cheaper than any comparable 1h+shield combo."

No one is denying that bash to interrupt casters is great or that a tank's job is to keep aggro while taking limited damage. What people are denying is that using a 1h and a shield truly accomplishes those things noticeably better than a 2hb with stun spells and/or shield switches does, especially when 2hb has the added perks of dealing more damage (which in turn reduces damage taken because stuff isn't alive for as long) and costing MUCH less.

If one were to characterize your position as you have the counter it would read as...

The other camp is "who gives a fuck, a less than 1% DPS increase for the group is more important than anything, even if less than 1 mob in 20 actually dies sooner because of it, nothing else matters."

Lorraine
08-31-2013, 09:02 AM
I guess my basic principle and point here, is that DPS for a Paladin is not one of his strengths. It's one of our weaknesses. The sooner the OP and basically anyone that wants to play the class understands it, the better it will be. Start building on the class strength. Understand it, accept it, embrace it.



Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."



/facepalm.jpeg

Don't strawman me, this ain't RNF. If you want to disagree with what I say, that's fine - just don't put words I never said in my mouth.

Tecmos Deception
08-31-2013, 09:47 AM
If you feel like this:

Your camp is "tanks are supposed to want AC and shields, they aren't supposed to be concerned with damage because that isn't what they're good at even if they DO focus on it."

isn't a pretty fair way of restating this:

I guess my basic principle and point here, is that DPS for a Paladin is not one of his strengths. It's one of our weaknesses. The sooner the OP and basically anyone that wants to play the class understands it, the better it will be. Start building on the class strength. Understand it, accept it, embrace it.

then please explain why.

Lorraine
08-31-2013, 11:36 AM
then please explain why.


I don't have to, because if you didn't skim posts you'd have realized it by now.

I speak of paladins, and paladins only.
I don't particularly care about warriors. Or shadowknights. Or monks (since people use them to tank here as well).

You chose to interpret (and no clue how or why) that I speak of 'tanks' in general. Warriors and monks are directly dependent to their weapon DPS and procs to maintain aggro. Paladins are not, so by definition they are free to choose their preferred weapon of choice. Warriors and monks already have issues as it is, to snap,maintain and hold aggro on non-rooted mobs while exp grinding with a group. Imagine them holding a shield and trying again. If the mobs don't die of laughter, their group members probably will.

Splorf22
08-31-2013, 02:07 PM
Propo I'm real curious what you do for a living now :)

I also think your DPS findings will shift as you level up. Warriors have basically the same skills as Knights at 50 but have substantial bonuses at 60, not to mention triple attack and DW becoming better and better. At 60 I found that Snoogan with an Epic+RBB+VoG+Str was putting out 40 dps in HS South while Sakuragi under the same circumstances would be hitting 60-65. Of course the Paladin epic and haste belt are about 100x easier to get than the warrior ones.

Anyway I agree with Lorraine that the offense/defense balance is a lot different for hybrids that can maintain aggro with spells than melee that need damage and procs. In fact that's one of the reasons that I think warriors are so gear dependent. Hybrids can just stack AC/HP/Sta and hold aggro with a few cheap L1 spells and a rusty long sword. Warriors need that and good weapons/dex/haste. In fact, I've spent well over 1M on Sakuragi mostly to increase his aggro (Epic/Shissar/Belt of the Four Winds). Defensively there isn't much difference between that and a Sarnak Warhammer/Dagas/Runed Bolster Belt, but offensively my new config is probably 50% more hate and 25% more DPS.

Finally for the OP, my personal advice would be:

Sword of Skyfire (1-20), Baton of Faith (21-50), Sword of the Morning/Clay Guardian Shield (50-60), Epic (whenever you can get it!). I would definitely focus on getting the epic ASAP as it's quite easy for any casual guild.

Nogdar
09-01-2013, 02:47 PM
It's all about being flexible and adapting to the situations.
Personally if I'm soloing/duoing/trio, I'll pull out a 2 hander, a pet and go for a dps setup. In a full group I'll use the ebon mace and a shield in raids I go for nocti + shield because I consider my dps to be irrelevant if I'm tanking in raids and go for an all survivability build.

Sometimes, the only goal is killing mobs as fast as you can, if you have healers with too much mana behind typically... Other times you cant to be all mitigation :)

Vallanor
09-03-2013, 10:17 PM
Finally for the OP, my personal advice would be:

Sword of Skyfire (1-20), Baton of Faith (21-50), Sword of the Morning/Clay Guardian Shield (50-60), Epic (whenever you can get it!). I would definitely focus on getting the epic ASAP as it's quite easy for any casual guild.

This is a tad off topic, but would you choose a Sword of the Morning over a Rod of Faith when going one-handed? In other words, does the stun proc on the Sword outweight the substantially higher DPS of the Rod of Faith? I suppose if DPS is really your goal, a Baton of Faith or Granite Face Grinder would make more sense. But if you want a mix of decent (in pally terms, haha) DPS and improved defense, I could see a Rod of Faith/Shield combo being a good choice.

Nogdar
09-04-2013, 04:47 AM
Wow I love how EQ always surprises me with items I had never heard of before, this is a great fucking weap! Almost as good as the ebon mace, dps wise ;) If you have access to all 3 weaps (this, the SOTM and a good 2 hander), I suggest adapting to the situation like I said in my previous post - i.e. 2 hander when solo/not tanking, Rod of faith when tanking groups and SOTM when tanking raids maybe? :) Although in raids most mobs will be immune to the stun I assume, so you're not gaining much defense wise.. But more aggro :)

Tecmos Deception
09-04-2013, 08:03 AM
This is a tad off topic, but would you choose a Sword of the Morning over a Rod of Faith when going one-handed?

I'd guess because Rod is very expensive and Sword is rather cheap. He also mentions clay guardian shield instead of sarnak battle shield even though SBS is obviously a better item ;)

koros
09-04-2013, 09:52 AM
RoF is 15% more dps at 60, and you lose a 5 sec stun and 50dd proc, it's kinda of a toss up. In a group you're almost certainly not going to miss the 5 dps difference.

Splorf22
09-04-2013, 10:07 PM
I was mostly going for cheap stuff. IMO it's better to spend 20k on the torn books and get that epic.