Fully Classic vs Current

[Vega]

Ok, so this has probably been posted before somewhere, but let's put it up again to get a consensus. This always seems to get brought up and debated as a side point in other threads. I will try to express both sides as best I can, but I'm sure my bias will show through some:

Current / Hybrid EQ:
Core classic EQ is what matters most. How the mobs acted, the itemization of loot, and how character's skills were used. Having an updated UI and all the amenities which go along with it only help to enhance the core mechanics. Things like scroll out 3rd person, item linking, and multiple chat windows only help people with their interaction with each other. So many older games have player made mods which try to add back in more modern engines without changing core mechanics. Intentional or not, the mix of old core mechanics with the titanium UI is actually the perfect combination. It would be a shame to see this lost.

Fully Classic:
Truly classic is the best. All of the UI extras actually have a larger effect on how the game is played than most people realize. If there is ever possibility of getting the trilogy client working on p99, it should be strictly enforced.

[Klax]

Personaly i think you should stick to the hybrid only because its already been that way for years now, it woulda been cool if it had been fully classic from the get-go but as it stands it would be silly to strip away the stuff that everyone is so used to now.

[YendorLootmonkey]

it would be silly to strip away the stuff that everyone is so used to now.

There are certain people here who feed off the tears from doing this... it's part of the metagame here like ForumQuesting.

[runlvlzero]

I voted core mechanics. But I would go further and un-nerf show/hide helm. I would allow luclin models by default. I would use the updated spell graphics and gems. And I would permit out of combat regen. I would also put in zerkers and beastlords. I would also put back in spell sets. And spell worn off messages. And guild UNDER the name tag. And I would allow things like root/snare stacking. Dot Stacking (2 of the same necro dot on one mob). Melody. Tradeskill combine interface for tradeskills. Unnerf compass sense heading. Convenience things. And game interface updates that reduce shit like RSI. Track.

Things that would stay out. Stuff like cultural armor. Focus effects. Cant think of anything right now thats from titanium that neeeds to go, later expansion items, keeping the database classic is good as far as gear and spell #'s goes.

I would also implement all the nerfs and fixes for items like donals bp, and implement my own nerfs for things like soulfires and ivandyrs to eliminate cheap play methods by the min/maxers. Lets face it all EQ raids are just a matter of numbers and coordination. There is no chess or deep strategy to them.

[CharlesBarkley]

Morpheus has spoken *slams gavel*

[Splorf22]

To me personally EQ is classic mechanics/spawns/mobs, not UI shit. And I'd even be willing to bend on classic mechanics in certain areas where I feel they are too exploitable (e.g. Donal's BP, enchanter charm not costing enough mana, hybrid xp penalties, etc).

That said Lord Nilbog does not share this opinion. I'm happy to play here either way really.

[heartbrand]

Personally I'd rather not classic. Do pre nerf donal bps make sense? Does no iksar armor? Is leaving out great stuff like greenmist, the final dain shawl, ct 2.0, post change AoW which was incorrectly itemized for risk c reward intelligent or fun? Dunno I don't personally think so but this is the server who wants to the next go around have the inte sword of killing in for a day and other intentional nonsensical bugs just so it can be called "classic." If Trakanon dropped cloth caps because verant didn't itemize him yet for a month he'd drop cloth caps here for a month and that to me is utterly retarded. But it's not my project so I don't get to call the shots u no? I accept it for what it is and pray and hope that one day someone will release a progression server without boxing and MQ and shit like defiant gear so I can relive the spirit of eq without shit like hybrid penalties on groups for already shitty classes. My two cents.

[Kika Maslyaka]

If there is ever possibility of getting the trilogy client working on p99, it should be strictly enforced.

There is none. Same reason why no clients prior to Titanium work (expect unique case of 6.2 which only a handful of people ever had), as well why not every client after Titanium works with Emu, and only then - very specific patch versions of specific clients.

The only effective way to get a specific client to work with Emu is to collect LIVE data from SOE server at exactly the time when SOE is using that client patch. Obviously since SOE keeps upgrading their clients and servers, if no data was collected for specific raw client or patch version - no Emulation of server connection can be build.

So unless someone figures a whole new way to reverse engineer Trilogy era server packets and OP codes - there will never be any client in use older than Titanium.

There have been attempts in the past to do it (see clasiceq project), but they got nothing playable/working to show after more than 7 years of work.

So, thank Titanium, as its the only widely available client that actually still has all of the old zones that were later rewamped, and no longer available in later clients.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

until consenting means the person can loot your shit, I don't wanna hear about it. It's nerfed classic. It's better than nothing.

[webrunner5]

release a progression server without boxing and MQ and shit like defiant gear so I can relive the spirit of eq without shit like hybrid penalties on groups for already shitty classes. My two cents.

I agree with you. Hybrid penalties are just stupid as hell, "classic" or not.

[Ele]

Classic or die. Night blindness, single chat box, not ducking spell casting, etc...

[BillyCranston]

EQ after 13 years can't be completely classic like it was 13 years ago. When 99% of the population knows how to run 100% of the game, classic mechanics fall completely flat on their ass.

Before the project even started, things like class penalties, all of that, should have been retrofitted like they eventually became. I understand the want to do things "classicly" patch by patch, but that simply isn't happening here. Things get picked and chosen as they can be completed, which is fine; but that's not how the changes happened in EQ classicly.

Forcing the original UI on anyone at this point is absolutely retarded. Velious releases and the new UI is introduced that everyone is using or has modded with UI files. If the UI had been available from the get-go, okay, I could see that. However, even then, I wouldn't agree with it. Yes, that's how it was when EQ came out... BECAUSE NO ONE HAD THE GRAPHICAL POWER TO RUN ANYTHING BIGGER THAN LESS THAN 50% OF YOUR SCREEN BEING ACTUAL GAMEPLAY!!!!

Class penalties, things getting changed that got changed back less than 6 months later, things that got completely removed because of abuse of players in classic that still exist here, that's not even half of it. I just don't see the point. If 5% of the playerbase on P99 knew what 95% of the playerbase knows, completely classic mechanics would work wonderfully.

5% being in the know is hardly what the population of P99 is. I'd be surprised if 5% of the lifetime population of P99 had never played the game before. Everyone knows what to use and what to abuse.

[jarinaEQ1]

Core engine, but :
+ UI advanced mod
+ TS UI
- Race/class penalty
- Twinky players

[myriverse]

Whatever it is we have now.

There's "classic" and then there's "grognard." Don't be the latter.

[Weekapaug]

Classic or die. Night blindness, single chat box, not ducking spell casting, etc...

I agree, but I don't know why people keep saying you couldn't duck spell casts....I did it during classic in 99 on my wiz constantly.

[Weekapaug]

We had no hybrid penalties here when I started, but they got patched in.

I love p99 and have the highest respect for the people behind it but it really makes me /boggle at how they prioritize what they do sometimes. Most agree that hybrid penalties made no sense, Brad McQuade himself acknowledged that they made no sense, yet we have that in an effort to be classic while so many other non-classic things exist. I really just don't get it, sometimes.

But as to the original topic, going to and requiring the Trilogy client would take care of so many non-classic issues, for sure. Proper night-blindness and custom UIs just off the top of my head. I voted Trilogy. The day a classic EMU starts that utilizes the Trilogy client, I am so there.

[heartbrand]

But hybrids are so good cuz they can melee and cast u no?

[SamwiseRed]

i think hybrid penalty should only apply to you when you are solo. not classic but its like, my opinion man.

[Weekapaug]

But hybrids are so good cuz they can melee and cast u no?

During this era of everquest hybrids suffer from compounding penalties. Their versitility was the original rationale behind this but they went too far. So not only do they, generally, not do anything better than the "pure" classes, they get a 40% exp penalty that they bring with them to groups, making them even less desireable. Bards being the arguable exception....They have always been great if the player behind them was talented. And I still think, personally, that hybrid tanks are great because they can use spells for aggro, but still prefer grouping with warriors because they bring no exp penalty. The exp penalty isn't that bad in a good fast grinding group with A hybrid....You get 2 or more and you might as well just go do something else....The bar literally barely moves.

Bad idea jeans, from the get-go, and the devs eventually admitted that the extent to which hybrids were penalized was a major mistake. And they took steps to fix it. The hybrid penalty came out mid-velious, and as new content was released most hybrid classes got their own lines of spells and buffs that gave them a more desired role. Eventually, hybrid tanks, for example, became the premiere tanks for group content, while warriors remained top tanks for raid content. Rangers just as viable a dps class as rogues and monks, with some fantastic ATK buffs to go with them. You know, actual class balance instead of what we have during this era.

I love classic EQ. Loved it then, and love it here now. But hybrid classes being basicly broken with compounding penalties probably at the top of the list of things I don't like about this era, becuase it's just ridiculous. And it's worse here because it gets so blown out of proportion by the min-maxxers. Back in actual classic era live, people still just played what they wanted and it really wasn't that big a deal, especially before kunark. It was around halfway thru kunark that people en masse began to notice the problem with the group hybrid exp penalty and started avoiding them for groups.

Was looking for something new to do recently so I started a ranger. It's actually a really fun class, you just have to gear it and play it right. Have talked to higher level rangers and from what I can gather, the worst part of playing one isn't that they are gimped like popular opionion suggests, but that people think they are gimped and you can't get groups. "Hope you like to solo" I have been told repeatedly.

[khanable]

Classic or die. Night blindness, single chat box, not ducking spell casting, etc...

[Tecmos Deception]

yet we have that in an effort to be classic while so many other non-classic things exist. I really just don't get it, sometimes.

The existence of some non-classic elements is not a good argument for more non-classic elements.

[Weekapaug]

That's not my argument.

Let's break whole classes, inconvenience the shit out of the vast majority of people playing by taking out the compass, but we will leave in things like custom UIs that let you do things that you never could live. Hell, they put the hybrid penalties back in, before they fixed root/snare stacking to be classic, as I recall, but I could be wrong about that.

I have no problem with the classic server being classic, at all, I just don't get how they prioritize these things, is all. I'm sure there are good reasons for it, but as a player it just makes no sense at times.

And one of the main reasons I hope we eventually get a new server after velious is out and they have tweaked and tuned everything. So we can actually experience classic from the start. Not to mention have an economy based on that, not what we have here. When I started here charming classes could perma charm mobs, you could stack dots because of the later revamp to that that wasn't classic, maps, compass, translocators, and the list goes on and on.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I have no problem with the classic server being classic, at all, I just don't get how they prioritize these things, is all. I'm sure there are good reasons for it, but as a player it just makes no sense at times.

I think you are being pretty rude to the server devs. Its not a matter of prioritizing which classic "nerf" to implement first - its a matter of coding difficulty. Putting in or removing hybrid XP penalties takes like 15 seconds to do, other things like disabling in-game maps took a very complex client hack to implement.

The devs just cannot arbitrarily choose to have 100% classic server, and have all of its features to magically appear out of thin air. It takes TIME and HARD WORK. And if you are playing on this server, frankly, be thankful for what you have now, cause if they would have waited to release the server until everything 100% classic - it still would be in development as of today (see classiceq project), instead of running successfully for 4 years now.

[fastboy21]

I agree, but I don't know why people keep saying you couldn't duck spell casts....I did it during classic in 99 on my wiz constantly.

you might think you did...it was added during velious iirc.

you could interrupt in classic, but you had to move, jump, etc...the real mechanic is that you could not instantly change your mind about what you were casting; you sometimes had to let the interrupted spell finish its whole casting time before starting the new one.

[Weekapaug]

I don't know how it's being "rude" simply discussing this. I'm not being critical of the devs (direct you to the "I'm sure there are good reasons for it" portion of my comments) I'm just saying that in the 3+ years I've been here I've never understood how these things get prioritized. I notice you didn't start till 2011....Things were a lot more classic at that point.

The order in which things change can have a lot of affect on balance. Nerfing one thing while leaving other non-classic elements in can throw things out of whack, basicly.

For example, notice how there are tons of bards right now, but not a lot of other hybrids? It's not just because they can AoE kite and solo. Bards are a lot easier to play with custom UIs. So the net effect of leaving custom UIs in while reinstating the hybrid penalty is that bards can overcome the penalty by soloing mass amounts of mobs and can overcome some classic limitations to the class with custom UIs while the other hybrids, most of which can't really solo at all, have a harder time getting groups.

I'm not being critical of the devs at all. It's just a discussion of the classic-ness of the server. Sheesh!

Again, back to the original topic, utlizing the Triliogy client fixes a lot of non-classic issues.

[Weekapaug]

you might think you did...it was added during velious iirc.

you could interrupt in classic, but you had to move, jump, etc...the real mechanic is that you could not instantly change your mind about what you were casting; you sometimes had to let the interrupted spell finish its whole casting time before starting the new one.

Nope, I was moving and jumping before a higher level friend told me to start ducking. Duck has always worked to interrupt casts.

What did go in later was the actual key setting for a interupt cast function. Which I always keep on the same key as duck because thats what I have always used.

[Kika Maslyaka]

I'm just saying that in the 3+ years I've been here I've never understood how these things get prioritized. I notice you didn't start till 2011....Things were a lot more classic at that point.

Then you have missed what I said about difficulty of implementing some things vs the others. Nilbog ultimate goal to "nerf" everything to full classiness. Some things are easier to do so, others are not. Its only matter of time and coding skills. The devs did not just choose to turn the spell sets off one day - they discovered how to do that and did so.

Also the fact that my first post dates back to 2011, doesn't mean its when I started to be around from ;)


Again, back to the original topic, utlizing the Triliogy client fixes a lot of non-classic issues.

Again - see my post on page 1 - you will NEVER have Trilogy client. It doesn't work, and in last 8 years I been around EMU no one ever could get it to work.

[Weekapaug]

Then you have missed what I said about difficulty of implementing some things vs the others. Nilbog ultimate goal to "nerf" everything to full classiness. Some things are easier to do so, others are not. Its only matter of time and coding skills. The devs did not just choose to turn the spell sets off one day - they discovered how to do that and did so.

Also the fact that my first post dates back to 2011, doesn't mean its when I started to be around from ;)



Again - see my post on page 1 - you will NEVER have Trilogy client. It doesn't work, and in last 8 years I been around EMU no one ever could get it to work.
[/QUOTE]

No, I didn't miss what you said. My concern is that the order in which things go in have an affect on class balance and that of the server overall.

It's not that I don't understand that somethings are harder to implement than others. My question is, do they consider overall balance when they do them, regardless of when they get to a particular issue or another. There are issues beyond the technical to consider. Do they?

[Kika Maslyaka]

No, I didn't miss what you said. My concern is that the order in which things go in have an affect on class balance and that of the server overall.

It's not that I don't understand that somethings are harder to implement than others. My question is, do they consider overall balance when they do them, regardless of when they get to a particular issue or another. There are issues beyond the technical to consider. Do they?


Well I see what you saying, but to be fair - Verant/SOE never cared much for such details neither. They had the Vision, in accordance to which they slapped hybrids with insane Xp penalty, while having such overpowered class like Necro to run around untouched for a decade. So, I would say that devs approach to the actual balance of the game is classic :D

[Weekapaug]

Well I see what you saying, but to be fair - Verant/SOE never cared much for such details neither. They had the Vision, in accordance to which they slapped hybrids with insane Xp penalty, while having such overpowered class like Necro to run around untouched for a decade. So, I would say that devs approach to the actual balance of the game is classic :D

You do have a point with that. There are so many examples where they just willy-nilly "fixed" things that would break whole classes....Then take their sweet ass time fixing them.

Breaking bards every other patch became a running joke.

I often joke that the most unclassic thing about p99 is the server doesn't go down all the time unexpectedly, always on the day you actually have time to play, and the patches are solid. No patching the patch of the patch like on live that I've seen here. They generally do a better job with everything here than live.

[BillyCranston]

i think hybrid penalty should only apply to you when you are solo. not classic but its like, my opinion man.

That would be just as dumb. The Penalties existed because someone was too high on cocaine to realize it was an absolutely dipshit idea.

Why should any class take longer to level than any other class, killing the same set of mobs? Hybrids hardly get shit of the spells from the classes they are mixing, definitely no where near the amount to penalize them.

[Tecmos Deception]

Why should any class take longer to level than any other class, killing the same set of mobs?

Because EQ isn't WoW?

Yeah, they got the some of the penalties wrong. Chanters and necros and shamans shoulda had big penalties and warriors and rogues shoulda had big bonuses and other classes should have been found inbetween. That sucks. But they got some right too. SK/pal tanks are way more than 40% better than warriors in xp groups, plus they have a knack for solo/duo/trio that warriors often lack; it's not entirely insane for them to have an xp penalty.

The weird/dumb/unplanned stuff that was present on live and is present on p99 is a HUGE part of what makes EQ so great. The people who truly like their class play it regardless of xp bonus or xp penalty. 60 rangers are proud to be 60 rangers instead of just another epic rogue or whatever. Etc.

Would most of us have preferred things a bit different? Yeah. Are most of us still playing p99 now, over a decade later, because this game is still better than anything else even with its little (or big) quirks and imbalances? Fuck yeah.

[Ele]

I agree, but I don't know why people keep saying you couldn't duck spell casts....I did it during classic in 99 on my wiz constantly.

Ducking would not instantly cancel a spell cast, it was implemented midway through Velious (http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=113794). If you were ducking by the time the spell was finishing its timer, then it would cause an interrupt.

The implementation on Red99 is era correct, Blue99 has the patched version.

[thugcruncher]

Personaly i think you should stick to the hybrid only because its already been that way for years now, it woulda been cool if it had been fully classic from the get-go but as it stands it would be silly to strip away the stuff that everyone is so used to now.

die carebear scum

[Klax]

Sucketh thee upon my E-balls.

[koros]

I agree, but I don't know why people keep saying you couldn't duck spell casts....I did it during classic in 99 on my wiz constantly.

No you didn't. It was changed prior to Luclin release.

[Weekapaug]

I did, but may have waited till the end of the cast timer, since the other poster mentions it.

[Weekapaug]

I don't, personally, care for every single aspect of classic, but what I don't understand is, if you aren't into true classic, why play here?

For a breezy classic-ish tour?

Give me my boat rides, old toon graphics, my level 12 epiced rogue alt and funghi tunic that I got on EZ Mode, but hold all the little bullshit that adds up to real challenge? Keep the custom UIs and item linking 'cause I'm a new skoool kid and deserve it? Oh nos...I have to look at a book to med while I play my op caster?

Just don't get it.

There IS no classic EQ without all of the little bullshit that goes with it. The game was designed around it. A lot of you guys talk a big game but are the very same "give me my mmo on a silver platter" entitled douches as the wow kids. You just think you are different because you play a 14 year old game with 8 year old conveninces. And voice chat.

If you can't play the game with a single bank of 6 hotkeys and one chat window, you're a noob. And if you complain about it, you're pathetic.

Barring that, everything you have done was done on EZ-Mode. Including what raid targets you have locked down and your fucking epic.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

[webrunner5]

I don't, personally, care for every single aspect of classic, but what I don't understand is, if you aren't into true classic, why play here?

For a breezy classic-ish tour?

Give me my boat rides, old toon graphics, my level 12 epiced rogue alt and funghi tunic that I got on EZ Mode, but hold all the little bullshit that adds up to real challenge? Keep the custom UIs and item linking 'cause I'm a new skoool kid and deserve it? Oh nos...I have to look at a book to med while I play my op caster?

Just don't get it.

There IS no classic EQ without all of the little bullshit that goes with it. The game was designed around it. A lot of you guys talk a big game but are the very same "give me my mmo on a silver platter" entitled douches as the wow kids. You just think you are different because you play a 14 year old game with 8 year old conveninces. And voice chat.

If you can't play the game with a single bank of 6 hotkeys and one chat window, you're a noob. And if you complain about it, you're pathetic.

Barring that, everything you have done was done on EZ-Mode. Including what raid targets you have locked down and your fucking epic.

Sorry, but it had to be said.

He has some valid points. :o