Classic PvP: I was there. The truth about teams, item loot, etc

[Doktoor]

Lots of discussion about this and new servers and the perennial issue of stocking a PvP server. I see a lot of 1/2 truths, misinformation, and more than anything, opinions based completely off of individual desires for what a server would be for their particular play style, rather than making a server that would bring lots of people to it and lots of PvP. For what it's worth, I'm just trying to help, not trying to fit the server to how I would like it to be. (Most likely will not be playing on either server)

A quick background about me, my first char, Doktoor (human bard) was on Vallon Zek. I started in December of 1999 a few months after the server opened up. I played VZ exclusively and had over 500 days /played on that char alone, a 50 mag pvp alt with over 100 days /played, all of it non-bazaar time, before I quit shortly after the servers were merged.

I also played a bard to 60 on the progression server and bards to 60 twice on the VZ/TZ servers. I'm currently playing my lvl 41 bard on P99 after a 2.5 yr hiatus.

This is how it was and in a lot of ways, still is. I will offer reasoning and proof for all my main claims:

Claim number 1. The majority of people do not like item loot.

a) The reasons in no particular order:

Reason #1: EQ is a grind. Whether that be exp or gear, it's a grind. Even with 5x exp, it takes a day or days to get one item in many cases. Case in point, quest armor. On live, upon reaching mid 30s in levels, a pally friend of mine and I stopped leveling and started working on the armor quests. It took us 3 months of daily playing to get outfitted with almost full Lambent/Armor of Ro. Sure, we were newbs, but even now, on Doktoor's 5th go-around, it still took me 2 weeks at lvl 39/40 for 5 pieces. From personal experience, even with the escapability of a bard, a full 8 hours of PvPing can easily lead to 3 deaths unless hit-and-run is your idea of PvP. 7 days of gearing, lost in 1 day of PvP = gay (and very possible). I could go further, in relating losing an item like a god haste item which could be completely irreplaceable.

Reason number 2: Item loot PvP favors casters. They can med up naked and have enough mana to down someone, especially if they sneak up on someone who's experiencing and is not full health. This leads to people becoming disillusioned with the server once they lose an irreplaceable item out of nowhere when a random caster nukes them down with no risk: Caster dies, no corpse to loot. Caster lives, loots an item and gates.

b) The proof:

It's simple folks. After the team servers had been out about a year (maybe 9 months, I don't remember exactly), there was an option given with a /movelog command to switch servers. These servers at the time had 1k people playing on each of them primetime. Thousands of people were given the option.

The result?

After being given a few weeks to think about it, after everyone was saying their goodbyes, a few days before the patch for the /movelog, it was called off by Verrant. The reason listed was that the numbers were overwhelmingly disparate. A small number of casters were going to remain on an unpopulated server while the bulk of the server left. The /movelog was canceled in the 11th hour and both team servers were changed to coin only - thus ending item loot except on Rallos where it would continue with a whole lot of bitching about getting mana burned and seeing your fungi on ebay the next day while the wizard waited in the Nexus for the manaburn button to refresh, and where people were labeled, blacklisted even, for being a "pk." There were no "pks" on Vallon - because everyone was one. PvP suffered because losing your best items blows.

I've been there. I've done the looting and I've been the looted. It sucks more to lose a piece that you worked very hard for than the opposite of whatever "it sucks" is, when you loot an item from a few minutes of PvP.

No, item loot doesn't encourage PvP (in general). Item loot encourages running, gaiting, and unplugging of computers while zoning.

PvP is fun because PvP is fun. It's fun putting your wits against another human being instead of a predictable computer. Trying to incentivize PvP is futile: "If you build it, they will come." Make the PvP balanced and people will play it. Have it waste your time or be on sided and people will not play it.


Claim number 2. PvP teams is just not a good idea and leads to weak teams vs strong teams, with everyone ending up on the strong side, and the guild(s) at the top ending up basically like a blue server, cupping each other's balls or wishing they could kill the other guild even though they cant, all the while taking a big steaming shit on the lower population team(s).

I'll add, that from a roleplaying standpoint or from just a "let's do something different" standpoint, it seems like a good idea.

a) The reasons: Through natural Darwinian means, teams become one-sided numbers-wise. One side beats up on the other side. This results in two things: First, people start to reroll because most people don't like the odds stacked against them. Second, the stronger side ends up with a gear advantage which feeds the feed-back loop.

One thing I've learned after playing on a PvP server for so long, is that there are 2 levels of PvP: The casual low level PvPer who may or may not have a guild association, but pvps for the enjoyment of one on one PvP. This char can often be an alt of a higher level char. But ultimately, all PvP devolves into guild war. This guild war is what results in weak teams and cross-teaming. Hard coded teams prevent cross teaming and create even more weakened teams through no back-door to avoid the disparity of a weakened team.

b) The Proof

I'll get into just the histories of two servers as this is already taking a long time.

Vallon Zek: This server had 4 teams, human, elf, shorty, and darkie. In the early days of the server, the darks had the most casters, the most pvpers, the most experienced players from other servers, and the advantage. For the first year of the server, they owned the server for the most part and in the early days of the server, it ended up (with tiny non-significant exceptions) as a 3 team vs 1 team server, or, light vs dark and evolved to a 3 team vs crossteamer vs 1 team. Cross teaming also started very early on. Ultimately, the number one Dark guilds either folded or merged to become other 4-team guilds. The lightie horde had taken over and it devolved into lightie guilds cupping each other's nuts vs 4 teamers and the fragment of remaining darkies.

Team warfare except for some small lowbie guilds never took root, even in the early days of VZ and even after the balance of power shifted, team PvP was never more than the wet dream of a few people. (yes, there were a few, but they were a small minority)

Sullon Zek: I'm not going into a huge history of this server, but I rest my case: Uneven teams from the start that ended up in a low population server with an uneven power balance.

There is no escaping it. One guild will dominate the server (even on blue) and eventually everyone else quits or rerolls and the result is a blue server with a resilient minority taking it in the rear.




Ok, I lied, I'm not going to offer reasons and proof for everything. I have some more points to make, but this is just getting too long so I'm going to summarize.

Bots/multiple accounts: Bad for PvP. From my exp on VZ/TZ, you end up with a bunch of people with druids and clerics in the next zone over getting you fully buffed to which you run back to once you get to 60% and debuffed, rinse and repeat = bad for PvP. They're nice for leveling and for getting around. They're nice to have for extra clerics on a raid. Other than that, they're bad for all things classic and for PvP.

Exp loss with PvP: Worst idea of all. Discourages PvP for all except the the best geared and roaming death squad types. Your average person is going to run from PvP if they think they have only 49% chance of WINNING.

Exp Bonus on PvP servers: Good idea. Gives more time for PvP - people have already done this.

Leadership boards: Dont matter. They encourage like 5 people to PvP.

In summary, I'm going to quote myself in the same post because out of all the shit I just said, this is key:

PvP is fun because PvP is fun. It's fun putting your wits against another human being instead of a predictable computer. Trying to incentivize PvP is futile: "If you build it, they will come." Make the PvP balanced and people will play it. Have it waste your time or be on sided and people will not play it.

P.S. People who want things the way they want them will argue the minute nuances of things I've listed above. If you don't agree with me, argue with the proof I listed. It happened and it's true.

[runlvlzero]

Theres lots of other good threads that illustrate these points from multiple perspectives (many of yours I disagree with) stop spamming new threads in blue. Post in the threads that are already there. You just spammed this to get your opinion to the top.

[Splorf22]

I don't understand why there cannot be some sort of programmatic means of keeping the teams balanced in terms of numbers. A couple of simple examples:

1. Measure the total playtime of light vs dark and prevent players from creating toons of the other class

2. Give some sort of bonus (the simplest one would be a resistance bonus) to whichever side is losing, i.e. if its 60/40 dark/light then the lighties get +20/all, if its 80/20 the lighties get +100/all

3. Randomly spawn kos-to-strong-side NPCs, e.g. if there is a big PVP event going on and one side is hugely outnumbered, 20 gnome warriors might suddenly spawn and attack the dark elves from behind

[Doktoor]

Wrong.

I posted because I'm trying to straighten out some misinformation.

And if my "opinion" is wrong, please point out the flaws in my "proof."

You read very fast sir, I reread 1/2 of my post then hit F5 and your post was already there, so I doubt you read it to have an "opinion."

EDIT: The thread is valid in this forum due to the fact that last night, on Blue, the MOTD was regarding a pvp server. Its a cross server issue right now.

[Doktoor]

Splorf, that's impossible.

EDIT: And would result in oceans of tears.

[thugcruncher]

boring and irrelevant

[runlvlzero]

Wrong.

I posted because I'm trying to straighten out some misinformation.

And if my "opinion" is wrong, please point out the flaws in my "proof."

You read very fast sir, I reread 1/2 of my post then hit F5 and your post was already there, so I doubt you read it to have an "opinion."

EDIT: The thread is valid in this forum due to the fact that last night, on Blue, the MOTD was regarding a pvp server. Its a cross server issue right now.

Go post in the appropriate threads and forums and stop making red look bad or pretending to. That is the reason I give as to why you are trolling, mad, or just REALLY wanting to be heard right now.

I'm telling you your post is falling on more deaf ears because of the way you are implementing your communications protocols. Fix em plz.

-- final post in this thread I'm out. Good luck bluebies, hope you don't suffer much because of this new teams discussion.

[Doktoor]

Boring for sure.

How is history irrelevant?

Still yet to see anyone argue the facts of history.

[Doktoor]

Go post in the appropriate threads and forums and stop making red look bad or pretending to. That is the reason I give as to why you are trolling, mad, or just REALLY wanting to be heard right now.

I'm telling you your post is falling on more deaf ears because of the way you are implementing your communications protocols. Fix em plz.

-- final post in this thread I'm out. Good luck bluebies, hope you don't suffer much because of this new teams discussion.

First off, I have nothing to be mad about. As I said above, I'm not playing there now and probably wont.

Really wanting to be heard? That's laughable. Next you'll be making assumptions about my weight and demographics? I've been reading the arguements one way and another and figured I'd weigh in, the same way you weigh in on every thread on these boards. For some reason, it's ok for you and not for me.

EDIT: And I really doubt anyone is "suffering," other than the people who's ears don't want to hear things that are contrary to what they believe.

[Azure]

What makes this thread more special than the rest? That its about the truth. Only the truth will be heard/allowed in this thread? No truth bashing? No other opinions are valid.

Thats what I got from quickly scanning the TLDR ranty post you made. Sorry. Nice try though.:eek:

[Doktoor]

Azure, the point is that people will use straw man logic just because they don't want to hear something that they don't agree with.

Example: I am for teams/item loot/whatever and this guy is not, so I will say that he just craves attention.

All I'm saying is, if you don't agree, point out the flaws. For instance, if you think that item loot is so terrific, then why, given the chance, did the bulk of the server try to switch servers?

[Tradesonred]

I see a lot of 1/2 truths, misinformation, and more than anything, opinions based completely off of individual desires for what a server would be for their particular play style, rather than making a server that would bring lots of people to it and lots of PvP. For what it's worth, I'm just trying to help, not trying to fit the server to how I would like it to be. (Most likely will not be playing on either server)


Thats the mistake of a person who seems to be new around here. It took forever for Rogean to un-trench from his "this isnt call of duty" position and cave in to removing xp loss in pvp. He didnt want lots and lots of pvp. Maybe because he thinks thats not why people play EQpvp, i dont know.

[JayN]

Tl;dr

Who fucking cares what your truth is for truthiness sake. Donate get shit changed, the end

[Sirken]

great OP Doktoor.

long live VZ.

[Colgate]

good post

teams are a retarded idea

[runlvlzero]

-now that thread is in a somewhat more realistic place:
I was there too. But not for the whole ride. However the better question is.

Do teams accelerate this process that seems universal to all the EQ servers or rules sets?
I don't think they do in all cases, or have that much of an overall effect.

Would teams increase population? maybe? Would the server become more blue, yes overall.

I'de rather play on a vastly blue server with optional pvp AND a good population, rather then on a dead pvp server though.

But the current blue server is far too blue. Teams are a better compromise to /duel and /guildwar.

[Vexenu]

SZ was the culmination of EQ PvP. It was a ruleset specifically engineered by EQ devs to address the failures of RZ, TZ and VZ. No item loot. No crossteaming. No level ranges. No immortal healers, no naked casters, no frantic bagging of items or other incentives to avoid PvP. Just lots of meaningful PvP between teams competing for leveling spots, item camps and raid mobs. Big fights, small fights, multi-zone skirmishes. PvP everywhere. It was war, and it felt like it.

There's a reason that an SZ-like ruleset has the most vocal support. That's not some kind of accident. It's because the people who experienced SZ (most of whom also played on RZ or VZ/TZ, by the way) know for a fact that it is the EQ ruleset that created the most memorable server experience by far.

[Tradesonred]

SZ was the culmination of EQ PvP. It was a ruleset specifically engineered by EQ devs to address the failures of RZ, TZ and VZ. No item loot. No crossteaming. No level ranges. No immortal healers, no naked casters, no frantic bagging of items or other incentives to avoid PvP. Just lots of meaningful PvP between teams competing for leveling spots, item camps and raid mobs. Big fights, small fights, multi-zone skirmishes. PvP everywhere. It was war, and it felt like it.

There's a reason that an SZ-like ruleset has the most vocal support. That's not some kind of accident. It's because the people who experienced SZ (most of whom also played on RZ or VZ/TZ, by the way) know for a fact that it is the EQ ruleset that created the most memorable server experience by far.

Its already an established fact on red99 that xp loss in pvp deters any contest of raid zones by underpopped factions. Ill beleive devs not implementing failed from the start rulesets when i see it.

[Rokannis]

SZ was the culmination of EQ PvP. It was a ruleset specifically engineered by EQ devs to address the failures of RZ, TZ and VZ. No item loot. No crossteaming. No level ranges. No immortal healers, no naked casters, no frantic bagging of items or other incentives to avoid PvP. Just lots of meaningful PvP between teams competing for leveling spots, item camps and raid mobs. Big fights, small fights, multi-zone skirmishes. PvP everywhere. It was war, and it felt like it.

There's a reason that an SZ-like ruleset has the most vocal support. That's not some kind of accident. It's because the people who experienced SZ (most of whom also played on RZ or VZ/TZ, by the way) know for a fact that it is the EQ ruleset that created the most memorable server experience by far.

Yep. However kids with only live BLUE experience and then Red emu experience don't understand. If you haven't played it, its very foreign. It works, everyone who played on it will tell you the same thing. We have been searching for the same experience but no other MMO has re-created the experience that the SZ ruleset brought us. Contesting for exp zones, raid mobs, etc created natural PVP which was the best. You always had SOMETHING to fight for. In FFA you fight just to fight. People need motivation, or else their motivation turns to "I just want to be an asshole and camp kids".

[Tradesonred]

Yep. However kids with only live BLUE experience and then Red emu experience don't understand. If you haven't played it, its very foreign. It works, everyone who played on it will tell you the same thing. We have been searching for the same experience but no other MMO has re-created the experience that the SZ ruleset brought us. Contesting for exp zones, raid mobs, etc created natural PVP which was the best. You always had SOMETHING to fight for. In FFA you fight just to fight. People need motivation, or else their motivation turns to "I just want to be an asshole and camp kids".

I dont get how fighting for camps/exp spots is different on a FFA server vs a teams server, maybe you can explain it to me. Oh its got exp loss in pvp, doesnt last for long and lets you focus on the important stuff (PVE), is that it?

[JayN]

IN classic when some one consented you; you could loot their whole corpse, abuse-able yes but classic nonetheless, horrible pathing bugs where you could exploit mobs without ever being touched (standing on wall/tent/building anything).

A lot of classic thing wont be the same for good reasons

[Rokannis]

I dont get how fighting for camps/exp spots is different on a FFA server vs a teams server, maybe you can explain it to me.

Because on FFA its all about you, or your guild. On teams, its about your TEAM and your guild. You are never just fighting for yourself. The health of your team is important to your experience, and it drives / motivates you to assist in that. Its a WHOLE different meta than anything you've seen unless you have actually played it.

Its clear that anyone who plays an EQEMU is a fucking nerd. We wouldn't be playing a 15 year old game if we weren't. Whether you are a closet nerd or 500 pound neckbeard nerd. You are one. Psychologically people like to associate themselves to something, for most of us its a game, for non-nerds, they have favorite sports teams. When in a game that has "team" choice, we associate ourselves with a team, and then our race/character. For non-nerds, they become die-hard fans of their team. Win or lose, its "fuck the other guys, my teams the best". This holds true in nerd-world. When playing SZ rules (good, evil or neutral), its "fuck the other guys, my teams the best, I'll defend this zone till my fingers bleed and be an e-hero". Kids love being e-heroes, its really the only reason people play this shit. E-hero with E-pixels. In an FFA scenario, you have nothing to fight for but your own survival. Sure you can join a guild, but that is still a very small minority of players that you care about. Those who are non-guilded have no incentive to do anything but fend for themselves.

Its all psychology man. No one is thinking of these rules in terms of game design. Game design, rules, and mechanics promote certain game play. You have rules that make the player only care about himself, you get a selfish community. You have rules that promote team play and co-operation, you see much less selfish players. They don't dissappear completely, but they die down. Team play promotes community, people play MMO's to play with others.

Theres a reason why SZ rules worked on live, and a reason why it was the last PVP rule-set server to be released because it was supposed to be a solution to the problems all the other ones had. Guess what, it worked, and we all had a fucking blast and have yet to re-live that same experience.

[runlvlzero]

Teams do encourage people to work toghether in PvE on order to get to the more high end pvp. FFA doesnt really it encourages people to solo and twink alts to pvp. Or pvp at max level in one or two big guilds. Teams allows people sometimes a modicome of safety in order to stay motivated in the game.

Yeah the die hard red Zeckers gonna scream BLUEBIE at anyone who likes teams. But its not once your 60, its as red as any other server but it does work out so that its more blue 1-50. Which is what will give the box population.

Hopefully. Or at least thats the logic.

I'm not going to deny the experience the OP has. But I blame what they saw, not on teams but on gaming/powergaming/EQ in general. Its not a very RP focus'd game. Teams helps a bit there too, but its never going to be able to force people to get immersed.

[Bogart]

Because on FFA its all about you, or your guild. On teams, its about your TEAM and your guild. You are never just fighting for yourself. The health of your team is important to your experience, and it drives / motivates you to assist in that. Its a WHOLE different meta than anything you've seen unless you have actually played it.

Its clear that anyone who plays an EQEMU is a fucking nerd. We wouldn't be playing a 15 year old game if we weren't. Whether you are a closet nerd or 500 pound neckbeard nerd. You are one. Psychologically people like to associate themselves to something, for most of us its a game, for non-nerds, they have favorite sports teams. When in a game that has "team" choice, we associate ourselves with a team, and then our race/character. For non-nerds, they become die-hard fans of their team. Win or lose, its "fuck the other guys, my teams the best". This holds true in nerd-world. When playing SZ rules (good, evil or neutral), its "fuck the other guys, my teams the best, I'll defend this zone till my fingers bleed and be an e-hero". Kids love being e-heroes, its really the only reason people play this shit. E-hero with E-pixels. In an FFA scenario, you have nothing to fight for but your own survival. Sure you can join a guild, but that is still a very small minority of players that you care about. Those who are non-guilded have no incentive to do anything but fend for themselves.

Its all psychology man. No one is thinking of these rules in terms of game design. Game design, rules, and mechanics promote certain game play. You have rules that make the player only care about himself, you get a selfish community. You have rules that promote team play and co-operation, you see much less selfish players. They don't dissappear completely, but they die down. Team play promotes community, people play MMO's to play with others.

Theres a reason why SZ rules worked on live, and a reason why it was the last PVP rule-set server to be released because it was supposed to be a solution to the problems all the other ones had. Guess what, it worked, and we all had a fucking blast and have yet to re-live that same experience.

This guy is in a tail spin. He has a logically inconsistent premise and is malfunctioning like Hal. I hope Teams99 launches soon.

[Vexenu]

Rokannis explained it very well. The server ruleset has an enormous impact on how players behave. We've seen this on Blue with the various raid rules that have come and gone, and we see it currently on Red. The existing Red ruleset is a recipe to bring out the worst in people, and it does exactly that. The amount of negativity permeating the server and the forum is absolutely unbelievable. No one seems to have a good view of Red, even (more like especially) the people playing on it 20+ hours a week. In fact, people feel so negatively about it and think Red is such a toxic wasteland that it would infect and destroy a new server with a totally different ruleset.

But it won't. With a modified SZ ruleset, people won't act the way they do on Red. There's just no incentive to do so, whereas on Red you have every incentive to behave like a dick to anyone who isn't in your guild. Big surprise that a server with anti-social rules creates anti-social players.

[Bazia]

very simply put, what is the motivation to "help news" that will magically make this server amazing that doesn't exist on red

simple answer please

[runlvlzero]

very simply put, what is the motivation to "help news" that will magically make this server amazing that doesn't exist on red

simple answer please

Those are (much more likely to be) the allies you have (possesive as well) to look forward in the future and the present. Instead of potential enemies. Same as IRL.

[Bazia]

most newbs on red i can give items and PL/protect and they will most likely join my guild

people still dont do it

[heartbrand]

NOBODY ON THIS SERVER CARES ABOUT ARTIFICIAL THINGS LIKE "TEAM" OTHER THAN FAGGOT ROLEPLAYERS LIKE SAMWISE/RUNLVLZERO/AND A FEW RANDOM BLUE PEOPLE

EVERYONE ELSE IS HERE FOR GRIEF/PVP KILLS/PIXELS

[Bazia]

pretty much what heartbrand said, im kinda confused it's like making a server for wolframs <spear of the nation> guild at launch which consisted of 10 people which 9 quit once they got bindcamped at like level 5

no one gives a shit about newbs anymore, this has been proven

[heartbrand]

this whole concept that like if I'm on the dark team and my fellow ogre is being bind camped in west commons by goodies or some shit and that I'll stop what I'm doing to save him is for the year 1999. No1 gives a shit again outside of those roleplayers in 2013, and tbh 90% of server would proly go "LOL U FAGGOT" to their fellow teammate getting owned.

[Bazia]

preach brother preach

once all these random blues see this they will immediately quit, after raging in team chat HRALP IM GETTING BIND CAMPED, NO ONE CARES THATS WHY THIS SERVERS DEAD

we've seen it a million times

[runlvlzero]

most newbs on red i can give items and PL/protect and they will most likely join my guild

people still dont do it

You'ld be better off with teams then at least you could be social rather then antisocial with 1/3rd (yeah I know evil will dominate) the pops

[heartbrand]

100% I'm not helping random people who arent in my guild just cuz they're on my "team" and if ur on my team and camping something I want I'm going to train u or x team to get it

[Bazia]

whole point of pvp server take what the fuck i want or id go play blue and get in line behind 100 unemployed nerds

[Tradesonred]

this whole concept that like if I'm on the dark team and my fellow ogre is being bind camped in west commons by goodies or some shit and that I'll stop what I'm doing to save him is for the year 1999. No1 gives a shit again outside of those roleplayers in 2013, and tbh 90% of server would proly go "LOL U FAGGOT" to their fellow teammate getting owned.

I might be inclined to do that, as may others, but to think people will generally drop what theyre doing to go save some random lowbie getting camped, thats just ridiculous.

Hey i just broke that FBSS spawn but some random lowbie that could be a cross team alt getting camped, guess ill gate out and go save his ass.

Im one of the "good" guys on this box, and even I would need to think about it for a while before i decide if i drop everything to go save some random. Id be more inclined to do it if said attacker is on my shit list.

Id be more willing to do it if say, im in neriak buying spells and theres something going on in nektulos, and some of my team are there duking it off, ill go join to mess around and have fun. But good luck getting out of a south karana lulz camp.

If they implement xp loss in pvp within level range again though its just gonna be lol point and laugh at the devs material. Just like people werent willing to contest Nihi on raid zones, teams will not contest griefers Griefing done by the winning team because theres nothing in it beside more PVE grind. And i mean Griefing with a capital G. Im willing to say whatever on red99 cuz they were experimenting a bit maybe, though to me they reacted way too late. But to implement that shit, again on a new server? Would blow my mind, truly.

Think HB is right on this, people looking at it with 99rosetinted glasses. Red99 will most likely be imported on teams99 so there will be some hardcore griefing involved, and it will take some determined white knighters to even start to dent the consequences of that.

[runlvlzero]

I might be inclined to do that, as may others, but to think people will drop what theyre doing to go save some lowbie getting camped, thats just ridiculous.

Hey i just broke that FBSS spawn but some random lowbie that could be a cross team alt getting camped, guess ill gate out and go save his ass.

Im one of the "good" guys on this box, and even I would need to think about it for a while before i decide if i drop everything to go save some random. Id be more inclined to do it if said attacker is on my shit list.

Id be more willing to do it if say, im in neriak buying spells and theres something going on in nektulos, and some of my team are there duking it off, ill go join to mess around and have fun. If they implement xp loss in pvp within level range again though its just gonna be lol point and laugh at the devs material. Just like people werent willing to contest Nihi on raid zones, teams will not contest griefers Griefing done by the winning team because theres nothing in it beside more PVE grind. And i mean Griefing with a capital G.

Think HB is right on this, people looking at it with 99rosetinted glasses. Red99 will most likely be imported on teams99 so there will be some hardcore griefing involved, and it will take some determined white knighters to even start to dent the consequences of that.

Agreed. A lot of people clamoring for teams are hoping that people will come out of the wood works and lead the way because they have their prefered "style" of box. So whats to hate? Red99 isn't gonna go away anytime soon.

[Stasis01]

You'll still be able to raid uncontested HB - why so bitter.

[heartbrand]

You'll still be able to raid uncontested HB - why so bitter.

u dum ? read my guild recruit post im flying free on team99 dawg

[SamwiseRed]

whole point of pvp server take what the fuck i want or id go play blue and get in line behind 100 unemployed nerds

we were just playing on blue because red99 been stale for a long time. wtf?

[Bazia]

still playing blue when i want some consistent pve with chatting

but when i log on to pvp server and i want a camp im going to get ya feel me heh

[runlvlzero]

LOL, why not mix the two? Diehard RZ'er, World is Binary. I like RZ but its not workin. Pop is not sustaining. They will probably shut down R99 and merge to blue if both servers fail. Good riddance.

[Tradesonred]

Agreed. A lot of people clamoring for teams are hoping that people will come out of the wood works and lead the way because they have their prefered "style" of box. So whats to hate? Red99 isn't gonna go away anytime soon.

To me those people are like that girl who went against me on xp loss in pvp on the forums 2 years ago, the princess or whatever her name is that was in spear of the nation. They have all this theorycrafting in mind. But when you get down to the daily practice of the ruleset, when they realise the epic grief that comes out of it, then you dont see these people post for a year + as they get the fuck out of that mess and stop logging on.

To me the best possible outcome, which is still bad, would be a fresh new FFA server where xp loss in pvp is removed from the start. Its to me the less griefy EQ pvp environment i can think of, where the teams can come and go, and alliances arent set in stone where faction balance isnt locked down foreverish.

Teams will probably be better starting out, but as soon as the more experienced/more time on their hands griefers start getting ahead, its going to be much, much worse than on red99.

Can you imagine coach spending 8 hours a day in lowbie zones, Jesus, I can.

[SamwiseRed]

still playing blue when i want some consistent pve with chatting

but when i log on to pvp server and i want a camp im going to get ya feel me heh

i dont wanna battle my dawg. just give it a shot, if ANYTHING its gonna be a new server with big pop and classic meaning... pvp every fucking where. if only one good thing comes out of this experiment itll be massive amounts of pvp for a few weeks.

hopefully its sucessful and all of you gain the same love for deity based hard coded teams as i. i assure you, you will see the light unless staff change this shit beyond recognition.

[Clark]

Boring for sure.

How is history irrelevant?

Still yet to see anyone argue the facts of history.

http://s22.postimg.org/9gzvdk4td/zzzz4.png

[Bazia]

o ill be there sam boxing old99 and teams99

but it's going to be hilarious watching these people get their shit pushed in at level 7 by a level 20 poopsocker begging people to leave their camps to come help and then rage when no one shows up

[Tradesonred]

i dont wanna battle my dawg. just give it a shot, if ANYTHING its gonna be a new server with big pop and classic meaning... pvp every fucking where. if only one good thing comes out of this experiment itll be massive amounts of pvp for a few weeks.

hopefully its sucessful and all of you gain the same love for deity based hard coded teams as i. i assure you, you will see the light unless staff change this shit beyond recognition.

I will give it a go for sure. Basically devs should take all my "negativity" and try to foresee the shitstorm thats coming and try to implement stuff that can deflect some of it. Maybe they can figure out something that can make it work, i just dont see it.

[SamwiseRed]

o ill be there sam boxing old99 and teams99

but it's going to be hilarious watching these people get their shit pushed in at level 7 by a level 20 poopsocker begging people to leave their camps to come help and then rage when no one shows up

i honestly think they will go with a 4 level range, at least thats what they led me to believe.

just to add, i dont think you realize how long people have waited for a teams server. i played all the servers including discord on live and sz was my favorite. it was also the server in which i had accomplished the least amount of progression.

[Space]

PvP is fun because PvP is fun. It's fun putting your wits against another human being instead of a predictable computer. Trying to incentivize PvP is futile: "If you build it, they will come." Make the PvP balanced and people will play it. Have it waste your time or be one sided and people will not play it.



Totally agree.

Having played both blue and red now to 50+, I would try red again, especially with teams. But being a bluebie and semi-casual, item loot sounds totally brutal to me, and I wouldn't personally play a server that included that.

This new server could draw some people away from blue, but it seems to me the less brutal it is, the more people will come.

[Vexenu]

Heartbrand and Bazia have had their souls sullied by the abuse they have witnessed and suffered on Red. They've been hardened, like people who were beaten as children and become bullies as a result. This is why it will come as such a surprise to them when they witness an enemy player trying to kill a young newblet on their team, and they reflexively step in to save him and kill the invader. Unbeknownst to them, they have hearts of gold, waiting to be uncovered when the rot of Red is washed away. Once they finally experience the glory that is PvP Teams under SZ rules, they are fated to become the unlikeliest of heroes. Embrace your destiny, gentlemen.

[runlvlzero]

People argue IRL history all the time... lizard people, luminatis, nazis, vikings, chinese, u name it something not right about it in the history books.

[Tradesonred]

Im of course assuming SZ server is the ruleset they will go for.

I assume this because its a classic themed project.

If they implement some of what that epic long post about a modified SZ proposed, plus a level range, plus no xp loss in pvp, plus some other stuff, then i could see it working, maybe.

But since it would be a custom server, I dont see it happening.

[valithteezee]

Because on FFA its all about you, or your guild. On teams, its about your TEAM and your guild. You are never just fighting for yourself. The health of your team is important to your experience, and it drives / motivates you to assist in that. Its a WHOLE different meta than anything you've seen unless you have actually played it.

Its clear that anyone who plays an EQEMU is a fucking nerd. We wouldn't be playing a 15 year old game if we weren't. Whether you are a closet nerd or 500 pound neckbeard nerd. You are one. Psychologically people like to associate themselves to something, for most of us its a game, for non-nerds, they have favorite sports teams. When in a game that has "team" choice, we associate ourselves with a team, and then our race/character. For non-nerds, they become die-hard fans of their team. Win or lose, its "fuck the other guys, my teams the best". This holds true in nerd-world. When playing SZ rules (good, evil or neutral), its "fuck the other guys, my teams the best, I'll defend this zone till my fingers bleed and be an e-hero". Kids love being e-heroes, its really the only reason people play this shit. E-hero with E-pixels. In an FFA scenario, you have nothing to fight for but your own survival. Sure you can join a guild, but that is still a very small minority of players that you care about. Those who are non-guilded have no incentive to do anything but fend for themselves.

Its all psychology man. No one is thinking of these rules in terms of game design. Game design, rules, and mechanics promote certain game play. You have rules that make the player only care about himself, you get a selfish community. You have rules that promote team play and co-operation, you see much less selfish players. They don't dissappear completely, but they die down. Team play promotes community, people play MMO's to play with others.

Theres a reason why SZ rules worked on live, and a reason why it was the last PVP rule-set server to be released because it was supposed to be a solution to the problems all the other ones had. Guess what, it worked, and we all had a fucking blast and have yet to re-live that same experience.

This.

[valithteezee]

I bet 10% to 20% of blue will reroll on team server and stay because it has elements of both PVP/blue(team safety). Should do it.

I never played on SZ but as far as proposed teams goes, what are all the possible combinations?

TZ was Shorty vs Elves Vs humanoids vs darkies.

Im not familiar with all the possible race/class combo's with an SZ deity system but what about Shorty/Elves Vs Humanoids Vs Darkies for new team server to promote balance??

The best we can hope for is for is minor tweaks that make balance and PVP more fun and allow for the game to still be fun.

[Doktoor]

There's a reason that an SZ-like ruleset has the most vocal support. That's not some kind of accident. It's because the people who experienced SZ (most of whom also played on RZ or VZ/TZ, by the way) know for a fact that it is the EQ ruleset that created the most memorable server experience by far.

There's also a reason that SZ had by far the lowest server population out of all servers.

EDIT: And I suppose I should clarify that I believe it was more because training was allowed (which means its de facto encouraged) than it was the teams, but the fact that the goods and nuets never really had a chance was a smaller reason, but a reason nonetheless.

Teams kinda worked on VZ and TZ for a time because there were over 1K (I remember seeing 1400 frequently throughout Y2K) people playing on the servers at peak hours. There's no way that this server is going to match that.

If people really want teams, then the more teams you have, the more you're going to dilute the playing field and thus the pvp interaction. It's just numbers. If you're gonna do it, there should be 2, or one is going to become completely irrelevant, just like on SZ.

[Absynthe2k5]

I don't understand why there cannot be some sort of programmatic means of keeping the teams balanced in terms of numbers. A couple of simple examples:

1. Measure the total playtime of light vs dark and prevent players from creating toons of the other class

2. Give some sort of bonus (the simplest one would be a resistance bonus) to whichever side is losing, i.e. if its 60/40 dark/light then the lighties get +20/all, if its 80/20 the lighties get +100/all

3. Randomly spawn kos-to-strong-side NPCs, e.g. if there is a big PVP event going on and one side is hugely outnumbered, 20 gnome warriors might suddenly spawn and attack the dark elves from behind

Some great ideas~

[heartbrand]

Best way would be the game randomly assigns a team to your account that keeps numbers even and that's your team. Each team would be assigned a starting area and I guess faction would need to be tweaked slightly. Team Qeynos / Team Freeport / Team Faydwer. Hard coded.

[Absynthe2k5]

There's also a reason that SZ had by far the lowest server population out of all servers.

EDIT: And I suppose I should clarify that I believe it was more because training was allowed (which means its de facto encouraged) than it was the teams, but the fact that the goods and nuets never really had a chance was a smaller reason, but a reason nonetheless.

Teams kinda worked on VZ and TZ for a time because there were over 1K (I remember seeing 1400 frequently throughout Y2K) people playing on the servers at peak hours. There's no way that this server is going to match that.

If people really want teams, then the more teams you have, the more you're going to dilute the playing field and thus the pvp interaction. It's just numbers. If you're gonna do it, there should be 2, or one is going to become completely irrelevant, just like on SZ.

You said it had the lowest pop I'd like to facts cause my memory says different but I could be wrong also.

On SZ population meant nothing in terms of power, in fact evils having higher pop just made a target rich environment. I had bags and bags of coins and was most likely the crappiest gear crappiest played ranger on the server.

Now I loved SZ but I also like FFA, if you can make it so guildies can't screw with each other for raiding. Though FF in battle is a whole other good dynamic for mass pvp. I don't mind lvl ranges but it fosters twinks wheras no lvl engage limit you can have a 60 com in and clean out the bajillion platinum geared twinks.

[Rec]

I remember SZ being the most popular server in the list but that was when it was fairly new and I don't remember checking the population after that. I'd like to see some proof of the various server pops as well. Considering the argument is starting to boil down to what something should be based on someone's recollection of what was most popular.

[Absynthe2k5]

SZ was the culmination of EQ PvP. It was a ruleset specifically engineered by EQ devs to address the failures of RZ, TZ and VZ. No item loot. No crossteaming. No level ranges. No immortal healers, no naked casters, no frantic bagging of items or other incentives to avoid PvP. Just lots of meaningful PvP between teams competing for leveling spots, item camps and raid mobs. Big fights, small fights, multi-zone skirmishes. PvP everywhere. It was war, and it felt like it.

There's a reason that an SZ-like ruleset has the most vocal support. That's not some kind of accident. It's because the people who experienced SZ (most of whom also played on RZ or VZ/TZ, by the way) know for a fact that it is the EQ ruleset that created the most memorable server experience by far.

+1

[heartbrand]

Put in no level ranges and ill sit in newb zones camping new players 24:7. I don't want to do this but it's in my blood I can't help it.

[Doktoor]

You said it had the lowest pop I'd like to facts cause my memory says different but I could be wrong also.

Your memory fails you. I don't know how to offer proof for this.

Although there were a bunch of people on SZ for the first month, the numbers fell sharply after that with all the people jumping ship saying how much it sucked to get trained, attacked while exping, corpse camped, etc.

Within months of SZ's creation, VZ and TZ were still getting 900 to 1000 people daily and SZ was riding round 350 to 450.

Lady Dagarmo's pet project was deemed a failure very early on.


Here's the problem and this is key: If you have 500 people on a PvP server, you're going to have 500 different play styles. Some are going to be all out pvp with no interest in leveling, some are going to be all out pvpers with interest in getting up to high level. Some are going to have moderate interest in pvp and moderate interest in PvE. Some are going to have higher interest in PvE and less interest in PvP, so and and so on.

SZ ruleset favors only the uber Red and the uber Blue, and the people who just like to be ass holes. The ass holes corpse camp newbies for no reason other than to be ass holes, the uber red keep everyone on their toes and the uber blue end up having a gear advantage and what you're left with is a single uber guild mixed with uber red and uber blue folks with a huge gear advantage, kicking the shit out of the rest of the server which causes disillusionment and quitting or rerolling.

[Doktoor]

Put in no level ranges and ill sit in newb zones camping new players 24:7. I don't want to do this but it's in my blood I can't help it.

Because you're an ass hole.

SZ was made for people like you and that's why that server had low population.

EDIT: Grammar

[Absynthe2k5]

Best way would be the game randomly assigns a team to your account that keeps numbers even and that's your team. Each team would be assigned a starting area and I guess faction would need to be tweaked slightly. Team Qeynos / Team Freeport / Team Faydwer. Hard coded.

Nice idea in theory but then you have people trading accounts and you have people stuck on teams where they might not get to play the only class/race they like. Is a step in a cool direction though.

[Rec]

Put in no level ranges and ill sit in newb zones camping new players 24:7. I don't want to do this but it's in my blood I can't help it.

People will be camping you as well.

[Doktoor]

Teams can be semi-solvent with the problems I've discussed, but all these things will lower server populations:

Allowing training, corpse camping, attacking people while engaged with mobs, intentionally causing exp death from a mob in PvP. (You may like doing it, but the bulk of people don't like to be shit on. PvP is not getting shit on. A raid of 40 people being trained and losing hours of time by one person is getting shit on)

Exp death through PvP.

Item loot.

No level cap on PvP (meaning allowing lvl 50s to kill lvl 1s, but 4 lvls is too small unless there's an exception for 50+ because of immortal healers).

[heartbrand]

Nice idea in theory but then you have people trading accounts and you have people stuck on teams where they might not get to play the only class/race they like. Is a step in a cool direction though.

This would have nothing to do with class race it would be completely independent of that.

[heartbrand]

People will be camping you as well.

Who is ultimately harmed more? My naked wizard who suffers little to none or the newbs permanently griefed off?

[Doktoor]

There's no way to force team numbers to be even beyond the creation of the server. You could just make another account and reroll. It's free.

[heartbrand]

To all these people talking about helping your team, how many of you answered the local defense call in warcraft, or did you keep on doing the quest you were in the middle of? Yaw thought so.

[Banai]

man heartbrand you are one sad fuck

[heartbrand]

No, I'm a realist who doesn't want a server to be designed around the whims and visions of a few blue role players who envision this server completely different then the majority of people will.

[nilbog]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

[Banai]

No you are just sad

[heartbrand]

I mean with that rationale why even build prisons? Who would ever commit crimes?

[Vexenu]

Would be funny if the GM's grief heartbrand by deleting his characters if he repeatedly goes out of his way to grief newbs.

Grief is grief. If you can't take it, don't give it.

[Bazia]

dont worry random bluebie your going to get bind camped at level 6 and quit within 3 days like the 400 other blue folk who did the same at red99 launch

and guess what? no one come to rescue them lol

[Vexenu]

Starting to become obvious you two have some kind of personality disorder. It's like you want the new box to fail so you can continue running around wallowing in shit on Red.

Some kind of self-loathing that makes you only want to play on a failed server. Really strange shit. Sometimes I forget how fucking weird people who live on the internet are.

[Bazia]

Don't want them to waste a good server with a ruleset egged on by morans who immediately quit after being camped at level 4

[Tradesonred]

People who think they can stop other people from fucking with lowbie zones are smoking crazy pills

Basically they would have to sit there all the time because thats what some of the griefers will do all the time

Cuz you know, its so funny

[Vexenu]

Why don't you go read my proposed rules then, which make it impossible for anyone to get corpse camped at level 4? And make high level griefing impossible in the weeks after server launch by placing level caps during the crucial high population days. These are realistic and reasonable ideas that could easily be implemented and would ensure the best chance for getting new players to a decent level without being griefed off the box as newbs by dedicated no-lifers.

The goal of a ruleset is not to be perfect in every regard or totally classic, it's to provide the environment that results in the best chance for growing a server that can be successful in the long run and maintain a decent 300+ pop.

[Tradesonred]

Why don't you go read my proposed rules then, which make it impossible for anyone to get corpse camped at level 4? And make high level griefing impossible in the weeks after server launch by placing level caps during the crucial high population days. These are realistic and reasonable ideas that could easily be implemented and would ensure the best chance for getting new players to a decent level without being griefed off the box as newbs by dedicated no-lifers.

The goal of a ruleset is not to be perfect in every regard or totally classic, it's to provide the environment that results in the best chance for growing a server that can be successful in the long run and maintain a decent 300+ pop.

Actually ive been saying that something like your ruleset, plus no xp loss in pvp, plus a level range, might have chances of working out.

But like i also said, since this is a classic themed project, and it would be a custom server, i dont see it happening.

[Zuranthium]

The devs are going to implement custom rules. That's not an issue. I just don't think they will change any of the core game mechanics.

[Tradesonred]

The devs are going to implement custom rules. That's not an issue. I just don't think they will change any of the core game mechanics.

Just how custom though, making evil team FFA would start to drift on the heavy custom side IMO.

[Zuranthium]

Evil team FFA is absolutely perfect both thematically and logistically (it weakens the overpowered Evil team a bit and people who want to play FFA PvP still have that option).

[Absynthe2k5]

Because you're an ass hole.

SZ was made for people like you and that's why that server had low population.

EDIT: Grammar

Again, SZ didn't decline within a month of opening it took off. I was asking for facts because at times I think there were upwards of 2k on SZ actually I think higher but it was a long time ago. I do know zones were packed for quite some time. I remember just in neriak alone you had to fight to find a decaying skele, orcs in ec/wc were perma camped and you waited for hours for spots in groups.

Something you missed about the no lvl range, sure jerks would camp lowbies it was a common tactic but what happened shortly after (on every team) was the knights of the team would show up and prison shower scenes would follow. People looked to the big guilds on their team as protectors and many of those larger guilds did just that. They would hang out helping folks pl a bit and locking down zones so folks could level. This is why folks say teams offers community. The problem is many of those folks are gone and you have the rif raf left over.

You also had lowbies throwing themselves on swords worldwide to help dispel attackers for their champs so their teams big guys could get the upper hand. All everyone wants to quote to you peeps is the bad stuff they saw happen, I assure you far more good things happened.

[Bazia]

Level caps is the stupidest idea I have ever heard suggested, and will never ever happen.

I will outlevel you within hours then camp your casual scum corpse

Followed with screenshots of the rage tells and kill on the forums

[Vexenu]

Yeah, a griefer probably would think they are stupid.

That's how you know they're a good idea, genius.

In other news, bank robbers protest against locks and security cameras.

[Bazia]

Good luck with that level cap request

shits classic

[Vexenu]

Classic: RZ, TZ/VZ, SZ rulesets

Non-Classic: Everything else being discussed. The devs are starting from the premise of creating a non-classic ruleset.

The primary goal is to create a PvP server that isn't a failed shithole like Red (which also isn't classic, btw, so you shouldn't be playing at all if adherence to classic is your priority).

But it's pretty clear your priority is simply to grief, which is funny, because the devs aren't stupid, and are simply going to be more inclined do the opposite of everything you and other griefers suggest.

So good job, man! Keep up the terrible feedback and public cheerleading for server failure, you are doing your part to help eliminate griefing and exploits on the new server. :D

[Absynthe2k5]

Level caps is the stupidest idea I have ever heard suggested, and will never ever happen.

I will outlevel you within hours then camp your casual scum corpse

Followed with screenshots of the rage tells and kill on the forums


Boy you got a perrty mouth... /em plays a banjo


You make me chuckle :)

[Bazia]

level caps lol

[Absynthe2k5]

Anyhoo I like quite a few of the op's ideas.

I am new here but played and still play live. I like FFA and teams. FFA allows for a bit more pvp on small pop.

Dunno how the devs view input of item skins from later xpansions but you could always introduce pvp points. You "coin" an even con and after awhile save up for trade ins on vanity type items. Titles or maybe even re skinning one of your weapons to look like something from a later expansion etc. This way the classic stays classic stats items etc but you get some pvp pimps running around with some nice graphical items for their hard work? Or is that just too much crap to try and code into the game piece by piece?

[Bazia]

those "pvp reward" systems are exploitable and the amount of work that it would require to make them not is a waste of time

thats why they dont exist

[Tradesonred]

Something you missed about the no lvl range, sure jerks would camp lowbies it was a common tactic but what happened shortly after (on every team) was the knights of the team would show up and prison shower scenes would follow. People looked to the big guilds on their team as protectors and many of those larger guilds did just that. They would hang out helping folks pl a bit and locking down zones so folks could level. This is why folks say teams offers community. The problem is many of those folks are gone and you have the rif raf left over.


Im gonna say this is something that works in teams favor. On blue i used to PL noobs all the time in unrest with my druid cuz well, wtf else am i gonna do, poop camp all the time? lol

Here on red im less inclined to do it, because who knows lies behind that alt. Might be a nilly alt in the making. On teams at least people stay on your team, cuz their hardcoded in.

You might be leveling a cross teamer though

Still dont see a good way to not make a teams server a grieffest

[Darksinga]

Doktoor +1 post man and good recap on the history of the Zek servers. I played on Vallon against you, and also on VZTZ with you (not sure if we were in opposing guilds there.)

Like some one said earlier, ultimately a teams PvP server is more blue but the thing is: a "more blue" team servers caters to MUCH more people.

Pros of a team server (as stated multiple times previously):

1) a safety net in which one can xp/farm content without having to worry about being killed.
2) psychological sense of belonging/association to a particular group. No I'm not talking about running half way across Norrath to save a elf getting CC'd by dark elves-- People who get CC'd are dumb, just log out for a few hours and do RL shit-- I'm talking about running through a zone and you see two dark elves beating on a wood elf druid. You, as the wood elf rogue will definitely sneak/hide, go behind those fgt wizards and continue to backstab them until their dead. Who honestly would turn the other way and just /laugh at his teammate getting slewn? Only a few of the die hard pvpers/griefers who I will provide a very valid point for:


The die hard Pvpers/griefers will play regardless of the ruleset so instead of catering to those select few degenerates: Heartbrand, Tune, Nihilum in general, Holocaust scum-- cater to semi bluebies who would love a new server.

A lot of the mind set at Red99 launch was "LOL I'm going to corpse/bind camp as many bluebies as I can to send them back to Blue99 LOL I'm SO COOL."

Make that shit a bannable offense. Make Corpse Camping illegal. Training illegal. Allow LnS if you're not a fgt who talks crap while looting his corpse. Implement a 8 lvl PvP Range (8 lvls is perfect-- no immortal healer lvl 4 crap-- no FFA lvl range lvl 50s camping lvl 10s in Crushbone.)

Overall though Devs, don't listen to a word that comes out of the mouth from any one with a post count over a thousand. Don't listen to the diehards who as a stated previously, will continue to play regardless. Listen to the masses who would absolutely LOVE a teams server (but don't have the voice/motivation to say so on these forums) in which griefing is very limited, if not a bannable offense.

[runlvlzero]

Doktoor +1 post man and good recap on the history of the Zek servers. I played on Vallon against you, and also on VZTZ with you (not sure if we were in opposing guilds there.)

Like some one said earlier, ultimately a teams PvP server is more blue but the thing is: a "more blue" team servers caters to MUCH more people.

Pros of a team server (as stated multiple times previously):

1) a safety net in which one can xp/farm content without having to worry about being killed.
2) psychological sense of belonging/association to a particular group. No I'm not talking about running half way across Norrath to save a elf getting CC'd by dark elves-- People who get CC'd are dumb, just log out for a few hours and do RL shit-- I'm talking about running through a zone and you see two dark elves beating on a wood elf druid. You, as the wood elf rogue will definitely sneak/hide, go behind those fgt wizards and continue to backstab them until their dead. Who honestly would turn the other way and just /laugh at his teammate getting slewn? Only a few of the die hard pvpers/griefers who I will provide a very valid point for:


The die hard Pvpers/griefers will play regardless of the ruleset so instead of catering to those select few degenerates: Heartbrand, Tune, Nihilum in general, Holocaust scum-- cater to semi bluebies who would love a new server.

A lot of the mind set at Red99 launch was "LOL I'm going to corpse/bind camp as many bluebies as I can to send them back to Blue99 LOL I'm SO COOL."

Make that shit a bannable offense. Make Corpse Camping illegal. Training illegal. Allow LnS if you're not a fgt who talks crap while looting his corpse. Implement a 8 lvl PvP Range (8 lvls is perfect-- no immortal healer lvl 4 crap-- no FFA lvl range lvl 50s camping lvl 10s in Crushbone.)

Overall though Devs, don't listen to a word that comes out of the mouth from any one with a post count over a thousand. Don't listen to the diehards who as a stated previously, will continue to play regardless. Listen to the masses who would absolutely LOVE a teams server (but don't have the voice/motivation to say so on these forums) in which griefing is very limited, if not a bannable offense.

[heartbrand]

You realize that I've give more free gear and pl out than almost anyone on this server? Just the other night on my stream I gave 15k worth of loot to a random free newb. I gave free loot to you as we'll without knowing you. Keep the griefer label to yourself.

[heartbrand]

Only person who has given away more / pled more is probably the other person you called a griefer "tune" who is prolly the nicest guy on the entire box

[Bazia]

I want to know what Tune does for a living that enables him to play 17 hours a day

I'm not joking or trolling, share the tips for success bro

[mtb tripper]

eat a hardboiled turd

[Something'Witty]

You realize that I've give more free gear and pl out than almost anyone on this server?

I can testify that Checkraise helped out my monk when I first started on the server. There were a few other individuals that have helped out through the levels (e.g., Andain), but HB's donation to a lvl 14 monk is still topic of conversation with my friends.

[runlvlzero]

HB has never griefed me or pvpd me. And has offered to help me, may have even helped me.

But I can't speak for everyone.

[Darksinga]

From a player who has very limited Red99 playtime I can only base my opinions on what I see when I log in. That being said, you can help a player out by giving him shit that's rotting in your bank when he's lvl 10, but will that really promote server growth when the second he turns 52 you corpse camp him into oblivion?

This is the only server I did not reach max level on because I quit after the first month of playtime, after hitting 35. Can you blame me? My entire guild would sit afk while I swarm kited for hours-- easy way to burn out :P

With that being said, what lvl 60 gets a hard on from corpse camping kids 8 lvls below him? On all the past servers I have played, I'd hardly even PvP the 52 and just leave him be, in hopes that he would hit 60 and provide some solid pvp competition. If Tune, you, and the rest of Nihilum are such nice guys then why can I find a high amount of posts on these forums that contradict your "bronze hero mentality?" I swear I just read a post from you saying that if SZ rules were implemented you would sit in Crushbone and kill lowbies all day because it was in your "blood."

[heartbrand]

Dunno considering I never corpse camped you. I'm also sure you're well aware of the logical fallacy of attributing the qualities of some people of a guild to others, especially one the size of Nihilum. I'm not lookin for pats on the back, that wasn't my intention, if I see someone I can help and it's not a bad/busy time I'll do so.

People just throw around the word "griefer", to every type of PVP engagement it seems. There are plenty of things my guild or other people do that I don't necessarily agree with, including corpse camping people in Hate. But, I have see on other occasions nizzar specifically instruct us not to go to Hate to kill Force, in order to help the server. In Red Dawn [incoming sighs], Nizzar let us get draco twice and even gave me strat for it. That's not someone trying to "grief" competition off the box. Again, on the other hand i do think nihilum does some things that might be in their interest but not the boxes. It's complex, which is why just calling people "griefers" to me just doesn't work.

Having said all of that, there are true "griefers", and there's quite a few of them I know I encountered them back in the good ol days of Red99, and to pretend that these people won't be a very real part of Teams99 would be a huge mistake. I'm not saying you need to code an entire ruleset around them, but to completely ignore any and all issues posed by griefing because you think they're so few in number or irrelevant, is in my opinion a grave error. I want this server to succeed, because it can only be good for red99 whether one merges to the other or vice versa, with a robust and vibrant community.

[runlvlzero]

From a player who has very limited Red99 playtime I can only base my opinions on what I see when I log in. That being said, you can help a player out by giving him shit that's rotting in your bank when he's lvl 10, but will that really promote server growth when the second he turns 52 you corpse camp him into oblivion?

This is the only server I did not reach max level on because I quit after the first month of playtime, after hitting 35. Can you blame me? My entire guild would sit afk while I swarm kited for hours-- easy way to burn out :P

With that being said, what lvl 60 gets a hard on from corpse camping kids 8 lvls below him? On all the past servers I have played, I'd hardly even PvP the 52 and just leave him be, in hopes that he would hit 60 and provide some solid pvp competition. If Tune, you, and the rest of Nihilum are such nice guys then why can I find a high amount of posts on these forums that contradict your "bronze hero mentality?" I swear I just read a post from you saying that if SZ rules were implemented you would sit in Crushbone and kill lowbies all day because it was in your "blood."

Playing with players is good. Chatting them up and creating a rapore is good. I do this on many toons over and over with random people. The trolls, the good guys, not so much Nihilum, mostly just their apps.

If you don't play with people they will see you as an inhuman character. Online interaction dehumanizes our social selfs.

I'm not saying get on a druid and PL them. I'm saying hang out in their zone, BS with them, Save them from a train. Help them single pull a mob thats just a lil hard for their group to get a nice drop. Rather than pling your epic twinks with druids, just grab a group and go slow. Everyone rushes to 50 and half of them alienate people otw because they want to skip what makes this game fun for a lot of us.

Or if you don't want to do that, go pvp with them, help them vs mrbigs. Ecoli does have a wizard, but I've not seen it online in weeks. Theres other players. But theres more griefers then there are socializer's.

Or roll alts and keep playing.

Glad to say I'm not a griefer even if I'm not BIS on 12 60's with manastones and trak teeth, soulfires.

[Doktoor]

Doktoor +1 post man and good recap on the history of the Zek servers. I played on Vallon against you, and also on VZTZ with you (not sure if we were in opposing guilds there.)

Like some one said earlier, ultimately a teams PvP server is more blue but the thing is: a "more blue" team servers caters to MUCH more people.

Pros of a team server (as stated multiple times previously):

1) a safety net in which one can xp/farm content without having to worry about being killed.
2) psychological sense of belonging/association to a particular group. No I'm not talking about running half way across Norrath to save a elf getting CC'd by dark elves-- People who get CC'd are dumb, just log out for a few hours and do RL shit-- I'm talking about running through a zone and you see two dark elves beating on a wood elf druid. You, as the wood elf rogue will definitely sneak/hide, go behind those fgt wizards and continue to backstab them until their dead. Who honestly would turn the other way and just /laugh at his teammate getting slewn? Only a few of the die hard pvpers/griefers who I will provide a very valid point for:


The die hard Pvpers/griefers will play regardless of the ruleset so instead of catering to those select few degenerates: Heartbrand, Tune, Nihilum in general, Holocaust scum-- cater to semi bluebies who would love a new server.

A lot of the mind set at Red99 launch was "LOL I'm going to corpse/bind camp as many bluebies as I can to send them back to Blue99 LOL I'm SO COOL."

Make that shit a bannable offense. Make Corpse Camping illegal. Training illegal. Allow LnS if you're not a fgt who talks crap while looting his corpse. Implement a 8 lvl PvP Range (8 lvls is perfect-- no immortal healer lvl 4 crap-- no FFA lvl range lvl 50s camping lvl 10s in Crushbone.)

Overall though Devs, don't listen to a word that comes out of the mouth from any one with a post count over a thousand. Don't listen to the diehards who as a stated previously, will continue to play regardless. Listen to the masses who would absolutely LOVE a teams server (but don't have the voice/motivation to say so on these forums) in which griefing is very limited, if not a bannable offense.

I hope the Devs see this and implement this to some extent. No rules will just produce a grief fest that no one will stick around for.

[Doktoor]

Starting to become obvious you two have some kind of personality disorder. It's like you want the new box to fail so you can continue running around wallowing in shit on Red.

Some kind of self-loathing that makes you only want to play on a failed server. Really strange shit. Sometimes I forget how fucking weird people who live on the internet are.

I was thinking the same thing.

Perhaps seek psychological treatment. You may be happier IRL with treatment then you will killing lvl 1s.