Collectivism vs Individualism

[Supreme]

The idea that this was a collective community project about Everquest players and not a project about individual demands has now taken an obvious turn.

I am not sure where project leaders thought it would be a good idea to appease these individual demands but given some time to consider the whole picture do you really think a "teams" server will improve Project 1999 PVP?

Do you not see that this is what the individuals desire? They do not have the ability or desire to build anything substantive to challenge and seek to bring an end by whatever means necessary to Project 1999 PVP.

Think back when Red 99 was released. To these individuals it was about the easy gank kill, or the corpse camping followed by gloating in the form of Project 1999 forum posts. This led to a lot of players simply quitting Red 99. It was never about building a PVP community of collective Everquest players it was about their individual desire. Now with the realization that Red 99 will not be their stomping grounds they have manipulated the idea that the "Collective" many desire a teams based server.

I was not able to be at this meeting of the minds that represented the voices of the many that play Red 99. But i can say that this will end up being a waste of resources and time that could be better spent promoting Red 99, Velious and fixing content/bugs.

[Nirgon]

Is that why several hot fixes were made after Azrael killed a few minor raid targets? Or you lied about and defended exploiting raid content? Interest in building a community? Take a hike.

[Aenor]

Let me ask you a question, Supreme. Has anybody on staff troubled to deny Uthgaard's contention that Nizzar filed a police report concerning an RMT partner in New Orleans that he betrayed and who subsequently made death threats? I mean, that sounds like some serious tinfoil action right there, but I haven't seen one word questioning the factual basis of Uthgaard's accusations.

So, I feel pretty confident that Nihilum would never have been able to compete without staff intervention on the current red server. Yes, I know, you can rules lawyer it all you want. Nihilum has admitted to cheating when nobody was watching but the staff can only punish those they directly observe. You're trying to blame the decline in population on griefing but the fact is that before the staff banned Holocaust for using exploits they learned from Nihilum, that grief-fest was thriving with 500+ players.

Now you're worried because your exploited gains won't mean as much to you if the whole population goes to a new server (a server where Nihilum will be completely dominated and griefed off the server unless the staff intervenes yet again). You need us, the players who weren't handed uncontested top dog status by the staff, to stick around and be jealous of your uberness.

It was selective enforcement of the rules that killed the population, not PvP. PvP brought the population of 500+. A new server will bring those numbers again. Sirken has stated that the new server is an experiment to see if they can find a ruleset that will retain population. Nihilum99 had its chance, and it failed to retain population. You killed your own audience. This is the consequence. Deal with it.

[Nirgon]

I'm going to shit in bed tonight then complain about it

[Potus]

http://i.imgur.com/5lqQ0zA.png
"Mithaniel Marrx, save me from the Teams PvP Bourgeoisie!" -- Nihilum, protectors of the "community"

[heartbrand]

The idea that this was a collective community project about Everquest players and not a project about individual demands has now taken an obvious turn.

I am not sure where project leaders thought it would be a good idea to appease these individual demands but given some time to consider the whole picture do you really think a "teams" server will improve Project 1999 PVP?

Do you not see that this is what the individuals desire? They do not have the ability or desire to build anything substantive to challenge and seek to bring an end by whatever means necessary to Project 1999 PVP.

Think back when Red 99 was released. To these individuals it was about the easy gank kill, or the corpse camping followed by gloating in the form of Project 1999 forum posts. This led to a lot of players simply quitting Red 99. It was never about building a PVP community of collective Everquest players it was about their individual desire. Now with the realization that Red 99 will not be their stomping grounds they have manipulated the idea that the "Collective" many desire a teams based server.

I was not able to be at this meeting of the minds that represented the voices of the many that play Red 99. But i can say that this will end up being a waste of resources and time that could be better spent promoting Red 99, Velious and fixing content/bugs.

The target playerbase for the teams server is not the same target playerbase for red99. Also they have stated numerous time that the work on Velious is in no way compromised or slowed because of this project.

[s1ckness]

supreme biggest non-factor . think iv seen him twice on red99 .. how does this guy think he knows what people want ?

think you r just speaking on your own individual desire

[s1ckness]

lets not forget to mention all the exploits people used to lvl

[Potus]

Calling your guild of 75% player base collectivism?

You see, in the glorious communist utopian state of Red99, Nihilum is downtrodden serf class and the 5 people who get Trak Toothed are the evil capitalists.

[Supreme]

What i hear is that Nihilum has exploited/cheated to get where they are.

Yet Nihilum is still here(even GMs have observed Nihilum does not cheat) and somehow a new Teams PVP server will suddenly completely change all of this for the betterment of Project 1999 PVP?

While you may not understand the idea that the few whining attention whores that have been butthurt spanked off the server now demand "something must be done" is imposing the will of the few on the many. Very much like making a rule/law for 1% of the population but it imposes itself on the other 99% no matter how much it may impose or inconvenience.

Why not just man up..make a guild..compete and don't quit when you get spanked but keep trying?



We already know the answer to that...losers always want it to be easy for THEM and do not care about how it affects the rest.

[Supreme]

Let me ask you a question, Supreme. Has anybody on staff troubled to deny Uthgaard's contention that Nizzar filed a police report concerning an RMT partner in New Orleans that he betrayed and who subsequently made death threats? I mean, that sounds like some serious tinfoil action right there, but I haven't seen one word questioning the factual basis of Uthgaard's accusations.

Uthgaard is a known liar and a flake. I can make the claim that this individual is a peter puffer and if no one comes to disprove my claim then that gives it validity? Kind of like repeating a lie over and over. If enough people repeat this same lie then it takes on a "truth" property as those communicating it believe it to be the "truth".

So, I feel pretty confident that Nihilum would never have been able to compete without staff intervention on the current red server. Yes, I know, you can rules lawyer it all you want. Nihilum has admitted to cheating when nobody was watching but the staff can only punish those they directly observe. You're trying to blame the decline in population on griefing but the fact is that before the staff banned Holocaust for using exploits they learned from Nihilum, that grief-fest was thriving with 500+ players.

If Nihilum "has cheated when nobody was watching" why have there not been Nihilum members reporting it? We have recruits/apps on raids...alot of them are old adversaries (Stasis etc..) yet there has not been anything to report...because the fact is that Nihilum does not "cheat".

Keep trying to blame the decline of the server on Holocaust being banned. If the role was reversed do you think Nihilum would have folded, quit the server and trolled the forums for over a year crying about "injustice".

Now you're worried because your exploited gains won't mean as much to you if the whole population goes to a new server (a server where Nihilum will be completely dominated and griefed off the server unless the staff intervenes yet again). You need us, the players who weren't handed uncontested top dog status by the staff, to stick around and be jealous of your uberness.

Again i challenge you to give me proof of exploited gains. The RBB and 3 other crap pieces of Vox loot did not make us quit or flee in protest. The fact is that you cannot beat Nihilum in the ring so you must rely on an alternative. And maybe with enough coercion the staff will help you beat Nihilum.

It was selective enforcement of the rules that killed the population, not PvP. PvP brought the population of 500+. A new server will bring those numbers again. Sirken has stated that the new server is an experiment to see if they can find a ruleset that will retain population. Nihilum99 had its chance, and it failed to retain population. You killed your own audience. This is the consequence. Deal with it.


I am not sure were you got the "selective enforcement" idea. I have been banned/suspended from Red99 for various things. Alot of people have. Two-boxing, training among them. There was no special treatment passed because of my guildtag.

It is not Nihilum that is here posting/trolling about how terrible Red99 is. It is the defeated trolls that cannot deal with losing. That must find another way to compete because they do not have the ability or desire to actually put in the work/effort to make something competitive.

How is that Nihilum's fault.

[Rhambuk]

Very uninteresting.

Teams good

Flush red99

[Aenor]

Losers always want it to be easy for THEM and do not care about how it affects the rest.

That perfectly describes how Nihilum recruited half the server to make competition impossible, thus destroying the server and necessitating a new teams server where competition can actually take place. Thus the previous statement, "you destroyed your own audience."

I can make the claim that this individual is a peter puffer and if no one comes to disprove my claim then that gives it validity?

You make a great jailhouse lawyer. Don't pick up the soap in the shower. Meanwhile, if Uthgaard is making this shit up, why hasn't he been laughed off the forums for it? Maybe the staff has reserved comment because they'd rather not deny it then have him produce the actual police report.

If the role was reversed do you think Nihilum would have folded, quit the server and trolled the forums for over a year crying about "injustice".

I believe I already answered that. I stated that, without GM intervention, there is no way Nihilum will survive on the new server.

And maybe with enough coercion the staff will help you beat Nihilum.

LOL coercion? Sirken had already stated there would not be a new server before the staff apparently changed their minds. I very seriously doubt anybody put a gun to their heads and demanded a new elf simulator.

[heartbrand]

It's pretty egotistical to think the devs are making a server because of nihilum. They're making a team server because lots of people, including mainly those who never played on red99 and couldn't even name five nihilum members, aren't interested in FFA pvp but they are in teams pvp.

Take a look at the nihilum dkp list on any given day and you'll see 30+ people who have quit the game. They were in the top guild and still quit. Why is that? Stuck in Kunark on a one guild server that is dead and boring, with no hope of truly ever attracting any sizable amount of new blood. The most they can hope to get back with velious and fixes is 60-70 people, 75% of who are probably nihilum members.

I'm not blaming the state of the server on nihilum, the server is where it is because of an awful launch with problems plaguing it since day one. But, there's also a problem I completely underestimated which is that FFA grief pvp does not appeal to what should be our biggest target audience: blue guilds sick of the raid scene on blue99. Teams appeals to them.

To me the whole nihilum thing balances out, for every person who claims they quit because of nihilum there's someone else who probably the only reason they still play is a guild like nihilum, it's a wash to me. The questions needing to be asked are the fundamentals as to why we're in the place we're in to begin with. And to that, beyond the resist fixes and all of that, it comes down to the fact that the ruleset itself doesn't appeal to a large portion of players. With teams, suddenly you're attracting those "bluebs", who are at least theoretically more mature and likely to form a base for a fun server with tons of competition. I just don't see that EVER happening on red99 regardless of what fixes they put in place.

[Kohedron]

I have no interest in FFA, but I'd definitely make a character on a teams server.

[Barkingturtle]

Who cares?

Server will launch, have a few hundred players, and then it will rapidly descend to become another 40-player testament to the PvP crowd's toxicity before being merged.

No one wants to play with any of you. It's not one guild nor the other. There aren't thousands of people lurking on the internet fiending for Classic EQ PvP. There are about 200 of you dudes, maybe. It is what it is.

[skipdog]

I know everybody here wants to shit on the OP because he plays on red, but I agree with him. Don't you all see the change in the devs behavior in the last couple months? It boggles my mind that so many of you seem to be ignoring such a big shift in how the devs operate lately.

Between the new server that is only being made because of 'lots of forum threads being created', the lack of CSR support with MQs and the ban on account sales/trading from 'people whining about it on the forums' it seems like the devs are caving to demands made via forum posts and it makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense to me because the devs have never done that in the past. They've always been able to look past forum complaints, realize that it's not very representative of the actual player base, and make the best decision for the good of the server.

So devs, can you please start ignoring more forum posts like you used to back in the good 'ol days? It's not representative of the player base. Please stop catering to the best forumquesters.

[Supreme]

It's pretty egotistical to think the devs are making a server because of nihilum. They're making a team server because lots of people, including mainly those who never played on red99 and couldn't even name five nihilum members, aren't interested in FFA pvp but they are in teams pvp.

Take a look at the nihilum dkp list on any given day and you'll see 30+ people who have quit the game. They were in the top guild and still quit. Why is that? Stuck in Kunark on a one guild server that is dead and boring, with no hope of truly ever attracting any sizable amount of new blood. The most they can hope to get back with velious and fixes is 60-70 people, 75% of who are probably nihilum members.

I'm not blaming the state of the server on nihilum, the server is where it is because of an awful launch with problems plaguing it since day one. But, there's also a problem I completely underestimated which is that FFA grief pvp does not appeal to what should be our biggest target audience: blue guilds sick of the raid scene on blue99. Teams appeals to them.

To me the whole nihilum thing balances out, for every person who claims they quit because of nihilum there's someone else who probably the only reason they still play is a guild like nihilum, it's a wash to me. The questions needing to be asked are the fundamentals as to why we're in the place we're in to begin with. And to that, beyond the resist fixes and all of that, it comes down to the fact that the ruleset itself doesn't appeal to a large portion of players. With teams, suddenly you're attracting those "bluebs", who are at least theoretically more mature and likely to form a base for a fun server with tons of competition. I just don't see that EVER happening on red99 regardless of what fixes they put in place.

You make some good points. I would rather see a server like blue that has PVP enabled for the raid zones, like Chardok/KC/Sebilis/PoF/PoH etc, instead of a "teams" server.

But that is me being an individual.

[Supreme]

I know everybody here wants to shit on the OP because he plays on red, but I agree with him. Don't you all see the change in the devs behavior in the last couple months? It boggles my mind that so many of you seem to be ignoring such a big shift in how the devs operate lately.

Between the new server that is only being made because of 'lots of forum threads being created', the lack of CSR support with MQs and the ban on account sales/trading from 'people whining about it on the forums' it seems like the devs are caving to demands made via forum posts and it makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense to me because the devs have never done that in the past. They've always been able to look past forum complaints, realize that it's not very representative of the actual player base, and make the best decision for the good of the server.

So devs, can you please start ignoring more forum posts like you used to back in the good 'ol days? It's not representative of the player base. Please stop catering to the best forumquesters.

Exactly.

[Elderan]

I know everybody here wants to shit on the OP because he plays on red, but I agree with him. Don't you all see the change in the devs behavior in the last couple months? It boggles my mind that so many of you seem to be ignoring such a big shift in how the devs operate lately.

Between the new server that is only being made because of 'lots of forum threads being created', the lack of CSR support with MQs and the ban on account sales/trading from 'people whining about it on the forums' it seems like the devs are caving to demands made via forum posts and it makes no sense to me.

It makes no sense to me because the devs have never done that in the past. They've always been able to look past forum complaints, realize that it's not very representative of the actual player base, and make the best decision for the good of the server.

So devs, can you please start ignoring more forum posts like you used to back in the good 'ol days? It's not representative of the player base. Please stop catering to the best forumquesters.

The biggest problem with the new server is they are basically saying, hey we are going to kill r99 for 6 months, then it will be good again.

So red players have 2 options

Quit for 6 months
Play on T99 for 6 months

[Colgate]

If Nihilum "has cheated when nobody was watching" why have there not been Nihilum members reporting it? We have recruits/apps on raids...alot of them are old adversaries (Stasis etc..) yet there has not been anything to report...because the fact is that Nihilum does not "cheat".

wolfram did that, and you guys immediately deguilded him in plane of hate, killed him, and corpse camped him there

[Atmas]

The biggest problem with the new server is they are basically saying, hey we are going to kill r99 for 6 months, then it will be good again.

So red players have 2 options

Quit for 6 months
Play on T99 for 6 months

No, the biggest problem is R99 itself. Bad rules bad players. If R99 was in any kind of decent state this wouldn't be an issue.

[Nirgon]

Fresh server gets a clean slate with Zade/Sirken as GMs.

Mayhaps an Ambrotos too.

Account selling and trading was non classic and wasted too much of staff/Ephi's time.

[Splorf22]

So devs, can you please start ignoring more forum posts like you used to back in the good 'ol days? It's not representative of the player base. Please stop catering to the best forumquesters.

How did you decide this? The forumquesters are pretty unanimous that a) the raid scene sucks and b) red 99 sucks. Are you seriously claiming that if you took a more scientific poll you would get different results?

Heartbrand has the right idea here.

[Supreme]

wolfram did that, and you guys immediately deguilded him in plane of hate, killed him, and corpse camped him there

More lies.

The only person that was guildremoved on a raid, killed and camped was STEAKS.

Because STEAKS was intentionally trying to exploit vox...even after several people in TS told him not to do it because it is a known bug.

Get your facts straight and stop with the half-truths and lies.

[Supreme]

No, the biggest problem is R99 itself. Bad rules bad players. If R99 was in any kind of decent state this wouldn't be an issue.

The state of Red99 is because of the butthurt losers that cannot man up and try to be competitive.

[Nirgon]

That is NOT a lie. Wolfram pointed out a bug and you guys killed him.

[Something'Witty]

Please stop catering to the best forumquesters.

"It is a general popular error to suppose the loudest complainers for the public to be the most anxious for its welfare."
Edmund Burke (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmund_Burke)

[Nirgon]

^ Yeah because I really want to make the servers as terrible and not classic as possible

[Something'Witty]

^ Yeah because I really want to make the servers as terrible and not classic as possible

Way to read between the lines, you figured me out! /sarcasm off

EDIT: At first glance I thought you (Nirgon) were talking about me, and was really confused. In hind sight, I realize you were talking about yourself. Well I didn't have you in mind when I posted the Edmund Burke quote, but it does apply. You might be a smart guy that knows a lot about EQ, however, that knowledge does not necessarily translate into knowing what is best for the R99 community. Just because someone is loud, doesn't mean they are right.

And for the record, I agree with you the majority of the time.

[Supreme]

^ Yeah because I really want to make the servers as terrible and not classic as possible

Nirgon (and his trolls) only will be happy when they have a server they can call their own.

Of course they already had it with Legacy of Zek and it failed...

[quido]

Supreme is good at video games.

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

http://www.aceshowbiz.com/images/news/artist-of-the-week-miley-cyrus.jpg


You break the law, you suffer the consequences. That's Miley justice.

[Nirgon]

Didn't play on LoZ, swing and a miss again.

Haven't MQ'd ever in my life either.

Hm!

I'm yet to falsely accuse you and your crew btw.

#winning

[Rockthrower]

The state of Red99 is because of the butthurt losers that cannot man up and try to be competitive.

I find this pretty humorous. Weren't you banned for using MQ?

[Giovanni]

More lies.

The only person that was guildremoved on a raid, killed and camped was STEAKS.

Because STEAKS was intentionally trying to exploit vox...even after several people in TS told him not to do it because it is a known bug.

Get your facts straight and stop with the half-truths and lies.


Why was vox pulled halfway across the zone to a known exploit spot instead of engaging in the lair?

Nihilum killed the red99 server, and now you guys can enjoy the server all by your lonesome selves.

[Nirgon]

Even better, he calls me out on my "gang of trolls" (Holo)!

Most of them joined Nihilum! You guys invited them! Hum!

Notice I haven't apped!

[Aenor]

Please stop catering to the best forumquesters.

Instead of crying over your defeat at the hands of legendary forumquesters such as myself, I suggest you take Supreme's advice:

"Why not just man up..make a guild..compete and don't quit when you get spanked but keep trying?"

[Llodd]

Instead of crying over your defeat at the hands of legendary forumquesters such as myself, I suggest you take Supreme's advice:

"Why not just man up..make a guild..compete and don't quit when you get spanked but keep trying?"

Are Nihilum and TMO the same guild? Both use the exact same logic.

[GrobbGangsta]

Supreme you are just a fat and awful douche. The purpose of this is not to protect your raid loot. The purpose is to provide the most fun on EQEMU for the most amount of people. The answer is Teams99.

Take your collectivism and shove it either up your or your wife's fat, disgusting rectum.

[Aenor]

Are Nihilum and TMO the same guild? Both use the exact same logic.

Well, that's a mighty fine question there, Llodd. Nihilum hacks their way to victory, recruits 60% of the server making competition impossible, then cries an "ocean of tears" when the staff decides to make a new server. You would think they'd be happy... they can farm all the pixels they want uncontested... isn't that what they always wanted?

But no, what they want is something else (and coincidentally, something they will never have). They want casuals like us who have a life outside of games to stick around and be jealous of their "accomplishments." They don't want people to leave and go to a server where PvP actually happens. It's just like Nirgon said, they shit their own bed and now they're complaining about the smell.

Now, Supreme will probably jump right back in and say all this "hate" for Nihilum stems from jealousy. Unfortunately that argument won't apply in this case. I'm not on the outside looking in, I was on the inside looking out. I was in Nihilum, past ap status, getting loot at the time of Kunark release. I quit before I ever dinged 52. Raiding uncontested was so boring I lost interest.

So, there's no jealousy here. The operative emotion, for someone who sees people like Supreme desperately crying and begging for attention and affirmation, is pity.

[GrobbGangsta]

Well, that's a mighty fine question there, Llodd. Nihilum hacks their way to victory, recruits 60% of the server making competition impossible, then cries an "ocean of tears" when the staff decides to make a new server. You would think they'd be happy... they can farm all the pixels they want uncontested... isn't that what they always wanted?

But no, what they want is something else (and coincidentally, something they will never have). They want casuals like us who have a life outside of games to stick around and be jealous of their "accomplishments." They don't want people to leave and go to a server where PvP actually happens. It's just like Nirgon said, they shit their own bed and now they're complaining about the smell.

Now, Supreme will probably jump right back in and say all this "hate" for Nihilum stems from jealousy. Unfortunately that argument won't apply in this case. I'm not on the outside looking in, I was on the inside looking out. I was in Nihilum, past ap status, getting loot at the time of Kunark release. I quit before I ever dinged 52. Raiding uncontested was so boring I lost interest.

So, there's no jealousy here. The operative emotion, for someone who sees people like Supreme desperately crying and begging for attention and affirmation, is pity.

This could not be more accurate, and I just wanted to get in before the "you mads" or whatever Nihilum meme of the day gets tossed around.

They do not want "competition." They want a group of people with a serious disadvantage to continue to cobble together a ragtag group and be easily slaughtered while they safely hide behind numbers and gear. They want this to go on indefinitely.

Sorry brews, the dream is dead. All your pixels = zero.

[webrunner5]

Teams99 will be tits up in 6 months just like Red is now. Like it has been said, there is just not that many people that are still into PVP. I, like most people, can hack playing on Red for a day or two, but full time ain't happening with most people.

So I am afraid there is no real hope long term. And once Velious comes out on Blue there will be 4 people on Red playing.

[formallydickman]

This shits in the wrong forum, thought I somehow clicked on red server chat with all these extra long ego sigs and retarded megaman avatars

[Old_PVP]

It's pretty egotistical to think the devs are making a server because of nihilum. They're making a team server because lots of people, including mainly those who never played on red99 and couldn't even name five nihilum members, aren't interested in FFA pvp but they are in teams pvp.

This dude's quote pretty much sums it up.

Hey OP, the reason Red99's population is low is not because Nihilum are untouchable pvp gods... it's simply because Red99's ruleset is not popular. MMORPG history shows that TEAM pvp is always more popular than FFA. FFA rulesets like Rallos Zek or even Ultima Online need Item Loot in order to survive. (to create the pk/anti-pk dynamic) Which of course Red99 didn't have and is too far gone to implement now.

Get over yourself, Nihilum are not important. The only reason you may be the top guild is because the real pvpers recognized the glaring flaws of Red99 at server launch and decided not to waste their time. Nihilum's zerg force fell into the dominant spot by default, not by skill. Prepare to get rolled and smoked once teams launch and some real pvpers take interest.

[Neach]

One thing is clear, people are always unhappy and bitching (great community) and it gets old regardless.

The OP has diva issues, as do most here.

Also, its a fucking game. If you care so much start ur own nazi server where you can be digital hitler.

I always love to pop in from time to time to read such retarded posts and emotional replies over such selfish banter. If you're not happy stfu and stop whining period.


Get over yourselves, don't be greedy and help make it a funner place for everyone. Or you all could do the same thing with T99 where I can read in 6th months the same shit and wonder why most even bother. peace out shit stains.

[Razdeline]

You people are seriously sick

[Fame]

But, there's also a problem I completely underestimated which is that FFA grief pvp does not appeal to what should be our biggest target audience: blue guilds sick of the raid scene on blue99. Teams appeals to them.


The prophecy!

[Lu|z Sect]

Guild with 3 pocket GMs wondering why no one wants to play on neckbearded server? Surprise.

[Loke]

Why not just man up..make a guild..compete and don't quit when you get spanked but keep trying?

We already know the answer to that...losers always want it to be easy for THEM and do not care about how it affects the rest.

Kind of like how you left blue to go raid on a fresh server after your guild on blue faded into obscurity and was unable to compete? Looks to me like people excited for the new PvP server are just taking a cue from the ol' Supreme playbook.

[Nirgon]

Don't forget being caught for MQ.

This guy was FD / AFK in xp groups and is handed loots for hosting a web site for something.

Man up and compete.

A gold mine of comedy, and to think he was so close to coming around the bend in ForumQuest.