Raiding in P1999 is nothing like raiding in classic.

[quido]

Tasslehof you should roll red bro

[ncapatina]

Everyone agrees P99's raid scene isn't, and can never be exactly like it was on live. So this whole discussion can't just be "it was X on live, so it should be X on P99".


Two live servers weren't even the same. Of course P99 is going to have its own wrinkles. But p99 is actually pretty close to how the majority of live servers raided. The biggest difference is we know the end of the story. That makes some items and the MOBs that drop them more valuable/contested. But that re-prioritization of content doesn't effect the methodology used here or any live server.


So it's ok to say "I have an opinion, and that opinion is that everyone should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP." But other people have different opinions, and theirs are no better and no worse than your opinion.


I agree, saying "I think you should have to play 40 hours a week to see VP" is an opinion. But that's not what I'm saying. What I said was that is what has already been set as the requirement to see VP here. Those are the facts bro, no opinion in that statement. If a cheeseburger costs $2 saying I think that a fair price is $1 and that is what I'll pay doesn't get me a cheeseburger.


At the end of the day it all comes down to what we want P99 to be. So given that, don't we all want a guild that spends twice as much effort to get twice as much reward ... not infinitely more reward?


Here is the problem with that logic. What "we" want isn't all the same. Do you think TMO wants things to change? I really doubt it. Why would they? I'm not trying to speak for them but I would imagine they feel they've earned their advantage and it would be unfair to take it away from them.

Contested content does this. One guild/group killing something means another guild/group can't kill it. If I were the leadership in TMO I'd want to keep a stranglehold on the gateway to higher level content to limit contention too. That's just the way EQ works man, sorry.


P.S. Oh, and by "we" I in some sense mean "the p99 developers" ... but since it does seem that they can be influenced by the rest of us, in a way "we" really does mean "us".

If the development team wanted to step in and force change they could. It would be somewhat contrary to what the stated goals of this server are but it is certainly their prerogative.

All the above (and stuff in previous posts) being said, I don't think anyone wants the server to be a bunch of casuals and TMO. What fun would that be? But if people aren't going to step up and compete with them on their level that's what will end up happening.

[ncapatina]

And everyone wonders why p99 isnt growing population wise, the community is toxic on this server and it is all about me, me , me. Greed and ego rule this server and new players see that and say screw this, it isnt the game that is keeping the server down, it is u the community. just go look at some mmorpg websites, anytime p99 is mentioned in a forum it is always negative with the main complaints being the greed and douchebagery of the community. If u want p99 to keep shrinking keep doing exactly what everyone is doing right now cause no one wants to play a game were 1 guild cockblocks everything and everyone wants an arm and a leg for everything.

I've found the community to be anything but toxic. I've been around on this server for about 2 months now and aside from the occasional forum troll people have been generally helpful and pleasant.

Granted, I'm not up to the raiding scene yet. But I guess my opinion on that is that if I came here to do high end raiding I would have to be prepared to do what it takes.

People need to appreciate what this server is instead of complain about what this server isn't.

[Laugher]

People need to appreciate what this server is instead of complain about what this server isn't.

Agreed. Of all the places one can get their EQ fix in I think this server has it best for anyone looking for a feel of pre-luclin/planes EQ. Sure, if you did want to play anywhere else for a "livelike" experience you could've ended up on Live or the Grand Creation and (not to bash those servers) probably ended up grouping with someone who felt courteous enough to drop 1/6 boxes they ran just to get around. The idea that MQ and boxing isn't allowed here in and of itself has in my opinion made for a solid community that has now lasted years plural.

Unlike other EQ communities I enjoy being here also because (i.e. again Live: "go get some defiant stuff from tutorial/crescent reach/bazaar") here people are willing to help others and respond with an answer (even money and/or lowbie gear in some cases) as opposed to just referring you to allakhazam; was once given a box of abu-kar as a noob for passing by the right level 50 at the right time haha.

Point: There are indeed alot of positive aspects to this community you don't find on any other EQ server anymore. In as much as that there is a lot of enjoyment to be had with friends raid or no raid.

That being said as a higher level on a limited amount of content there certainly is competition and I don't doubt the fact that it gets heated, but that is not the whole game, and if it is why didn't you join TMO or the former IB to begin with? lol, there are solutions if you don't want to be part of TMO but as they've been suggested several times nobody wants to cooperate enough under multiple guild tags to make that happen; I wasn't around much when TMO became the "big boss" (didn't play during school semesters) but from what I've read several times they had persistence and had to pry the torch from other guild's hands, why other guilds aren't banding together to "pry the torch from their hands" so to say if they feel so strongly about it is beyond me; regardless of loot you'd eventually have a workable and comparably competitive community of a decent size under several tags and level should you put in the effort for a short while together (which could at that point merge if they got along so well).

[Fael]

This thread is stupid. Velious was out within a year of Kunark's launch. Apples and frikin oranges.

Dolic

[Arteker]

The problem with p99 raiding is the rules of the server. Non-classic additions such as Variance, Sanctioned training, and the extended timeline we're on in combination with server repops rarely happening have created the situation on this server in terms of raiding.


Take out sanctioned training in VP, and have server repops more often..and you will see the loot spread out a lot more fairly. I mean TMO doesn't even need 75% of the loot they take in, its pure greed...and really has nothing to do with competition. They already will win velious regardless, with minimal effort, because no one has the amount of loot, or characters that they do.

The rest of us are just sitting here hoping the server's staff at some point implements more fair rules, or atleast enforces the rules they have here. By that I mean, IP exemption exploiting was always a bannable offense, it says so in the original message they send to you after your exemption goes through. Specifically, ever since Sirken made that ruling following TMO's previous IP exemption exploitations it was understood those caught would be banned. However, just this week Jeremy was caught abusing his IP exemption...and he wasn't banned.

How is this fair to the hundreds of other folks who were banned immediately upon being caught? What kind of message do you think this sends to the rest of the server?
Just saying, you can't expect people to feel as if they're playing on a level playing field when situations like this come about fairly regularly. I don't just mean in terms of individual players breaking the rules, I mean entire guilds as well. I'm not saying any one guild is more guilty than another either. But if you continually don't enforce the rules in a game..people will just take advantage of that, and they do on p99 everyday!
not much ago Dreconis from fE was caugth boxing lovya and he isnt got banned aswell and last time i cheked he is a FE member wich used a old alt from tmo ingrid to spy and GM even did a priblic shout when caught him .

if u wanna start with shit like that FE have much worse things to lose than tmo realy.

[loramin]

First off, thanks for the thoughtful response; sometimes these dialogues become ... less than thoughtful.


Here is the problem with that logic. What "we" want isn't all the same. Do you think TMO wants things to change? I really doubt it. Why would they?


I'd argue "because they are human beings". People may have selfish desires, but they also have a sense of justice. It's inherently human to think that "twice the effort deserves twice the reward", and even the people who are currently benefiting from an unfair system can appreciate the unfairness of it.

I think TMO wants fairness too, and their concerns about "we had to work for this and we don't want others to get stuff without having to work for it" is about fairness also. I think both TMO and the TMO haters are concerned about an unfair system, and ultimately that's what unites us all (or maybe just most; there's a few rotten apples on both sides).

Now, I realize that perfect fairness is a pipe dream, but EQ in general gets pretty close. It's true that someone could camp a mob for 4 hours and get loot while someone who camped it for 8 hours got nothing ... but in general the guy camping for 8 hours is going to get 2x the loot of the 4 hour guy. Same thing for exp grinding: in general if you grind for 8 hours you'll get twice as much exp as if you only grinded (ground?) for 4 hours.

So if EQ is generally fair all the way until the very end, shouldn't we try and get at least close to fair at the end? No freebies for people who don't earn them, and no lockouts for anyone not in the cool kids club, just our best shot at making a system that proportionally rewards everyone ... isn't that something reasonable we can all support?

[ncapatina]

First off, thanks for the thoughtful response; sometimes these dialogues become ... less than thoughtful.


Couldn't agree more. Differing opinions doesn't mean people have to be at each others throat. Part of having a solid community is intelligent discourse.


I'd argue "because they are human beings". People may have selfish desires, but they also have a sense of justice. It's inherently human to think that "twice the effort deserves twice the reward", and even the people who are currently benefiting from an unfair system can appreciate the unfairness of it.

I think TMO wants fairness too, and their concerns about "we had to work for this and we don't want others to get stuff without having to work for it" is about fairness also. I think both TMO and the TMO haters are concerned about an unfair system, and ultimately that's what unites us all (or maybe just most; there's a few rotten apples on both sides).


I'd argue it's already fair. The playing field is level, nobody has an advantage. You just have a group that puts in more effort/time. There just isn't a half effort/half reward option unfortunately. Well, I guess you could farm plat and buy raid drops from TMO, lol.

Eventually the strategy of keeping the high end content on lockdown will lead to a 90% casual/10% in TMO type situation (like Hate was on SZ for example) or worse, drive people away. But the decision to allow other guilds uncontested shots at contested content is ultimately up to TMO leadership. People asking for divine intervention from the p99 devs is just going to put them on the defensive I imagine.


Now, I realize that perfect fairness is a pipe dream, but EQ in general gets pretty close. It's true that someone could camp a mob for 4 hours and get loot while someone who camped it for 8 hours got nothing ... but in general the guy camping for 8 hours is going to get 2x the loot of the 4 hour guy. Same thing for exp grinding: in general if you grind for 8 hours you'll get twice as much exp as if you only grinded (ground?) for 4 hours.

So if EQ is generally fair all the way until the very end, shouldn't we try and get at least close to fair at the end? No freebies for people who don't earn them, and no lockouts for anyone not in the cool kids club, just our best shot at making a system that proportionally rewards everyone ... isn't that something reasonable we can all support?

Here is where I see a problem with your stance. Take the given example, person A camps the mob for 4 hours and person B for 8. The key fact you're leaving out is they can't camp it at the same time. Now let's say person B has the camp and holds it 24/7, which is within the rules. Person A could have had roughly half the drops in 12 hours but never got the opportunity.

At that point you either force person B to share, which effectively reduces the amount of drops he is getting over time, or person A has to take the camp on the next server restart or whatever. It's a microcosm of the contested raiding world, just instead of 30 minute respawns it may be an entire week.

If you ask person A they'd probably say it was unfair they never got a shot. If you ask person B they'd probably say it would unfair to take something away from them just because someone else wants it.

The big difference in my mind, and why I personally side with person B is that person A wants the same opportunities with less effort.

Like I said much earlier in this thread, there is a reason all modern MMOs have instanced raiding. These same complaints rang loud on EQ Live and companies don't want to deal with a lot of pissed off customers all the time.

[Ruenaros]

The whole discussion is moot since they've already stated weekly server repops are in the works. That alone will turn the raid scene on its head since it will no longer be possible for one guild to monopolize 97% of the content.

They'll probably still get 75-80% of it, but that's way more in line with how classic worked. Just gonna have to bide our time and wait for Nilbog to shake things up.

[JayN]

no one wants to play a game were 1 guild cockblocks everything and everyone wants an arm and a leg for everything.

This is just like real life, fuck working

[JayN]

TMO just let BDA go first on CT granted they didnt get him past 50%... all this TMO hate is fox new rhetoric from a select few of haters that burned their bridges long ago in the name of greed.

Now that they can no longer get their way they cry loud and hard.

eat dicks

TMO by no means has always been top dog on this server, they had to bite and claw their way to the top

[Tasslehofp99]

not much ago Dreconis from fE was caugth boxing lovya and he isnt got banned aswell and last time i cheked he is a FE member wich used a old alt from tmo ingrid to spy and GM even did a priblic shout when caught him .

if u wanna start with shit like that FE have much worse things to lose than tmo realy.

Really?


How about your officer Eccezan getting caught for MQ, and then making a guild MOTD advising other TMO members to use un-guilded alts if they planned on cheating. What about the IP exemption abuse that TMO used blatantly in VP to avoid dying on many occasions? These are things caught on fraps, that you can't deny. I don't even remember the last raid I saw Dreconis at, but I still see desmo online after this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K_YArIVqTM&feature=youtu.be

I'm sure Aiaus is still in use as well following his exploitations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c_EVJTmsIQ

lets keep In mind these videos are months old, but Jeremy was just caught basically using the same exploitation and went unbanned. Seems fairly contradictory considering: 1.) the rules regarding IP exemptions are sent to you upon being granted the exemption. 2.) A serverwide broadcast was made by sirken saying that anyone found exploiting IP exemptions would be banned. and 3.) Rules are rules, how often do people have to get away with breaking a rule before it goes enforced?

[Arteker]

Really?


How about your officer Eccezan getting caught for MQ, and then making a guild MOTD advising other TMO members to use un-guilded alts if they planned on cheating. What about the IP exemption abuse that TMO used blatantly in VP to avoid dying on many occasions? These are things caught on fraps, that you can't deny. I don't even remember the last raid I saw Dreconis at, but I still see desmo online after this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K_YArIVqTM&feature=youtu.be

I'm sure Aiaus is still in use as well following his exploitations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c_EVJTmsIQ

lets keep In mind these videos are months old, but Jeremy was just caught basically using the same exploitation and went unbanned. Seems fairly contradictory considering: 1.) the rules regarding IP exemptions are sent to you upon being granted the exemption. 2.) A serverwide broadcast was made by sirken saying that anyone found exploiting IP exemptions would be banned. and 3.) Rules are rules, how often do people have to get away with breaking a rule before it goes enforced?

you such bad with lies or have a very selective memory, Eccezan didint got baned the sk he bougth was allready flaged by mq , cleared by GMs . and i know u only thrust GMS when benefits you.
he put a motd asking to people buying accounts to put petitions to get their chars c they bougth cheked up.

About IP exemptions its hilarius since u guys used it aswell and even had a post in ur forum requesting every full member to get one to fast switch at trakanon .

did jeremy was in vp or trying to raid solo or kill a mob? rolf he was doing trades u so funny a great crime indeed.

[Acrux Bcrux]

This is just like real life

Only its a 13 year old elf simulator

[Tasslehofp99]

you such bad with lies or have a very selective memory, Eccezan didint got baned the sk he bougth was allready flaged by mq , cleared by GMs . and i know u only thrust GMS when benefits you.
he put a motd asking to people buying accounts to put petitions to get their chars c they bougth cheked up.

About IP exemptions its hilarius since u guys used it aswell and even had a post in ur forum requesting every full member to get one to fast switch at trakanon .

did jeremy was in vp or trying to raid solo or kill a mob? rolf he was doing trades u so funny a great crime indeed.

Breaking a rule is breaking a rule.

It's funny, I provide you with fraps evidence of TMO breaking rules, and you make up lies about forum posts? lol

Many TMO members access FE's forums, if such a post existed, I assure you it would have seen the light of day.

Anyway, Keep lying, Keep cheating, and Keep exploiting TMO!

[Alarti0001]

Really?


How about your officer Eccezan getting caught for MQ, and then making a guild MOTD advising other TMO members to use un-guilded alts if they planned on cheating. What about the IP exemption abuse that TMO used blatantly in VP to avoid dying on many occasions? These are things caught on fraps, that you can't deny. I don't even remember the last raid I saw Dreconis at, but I still see desmo online after this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5K_YArIVqTM&feature=youtu.be

I'm sure Aiaus is still in use as well following his exploitations:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c_EVJTmsIQ

lets keep In mind these videos are months old, but Jeremy was just caught basically using the same exploitation and went unbanned. Seems fairly contradictory considering: 1.) the rules regarding IP exemptions are sent to you upon being granted the exemption. 2.) A serverwide broadcast was made by sirken saying that anyone found exploiting IP exemptions would be banned. and 3.) Rules are rules, how often do people have to get away with breaking a rule before it goes enforced?

Aiaus was prior to the rule.
Explain Xeli doing this after the rule.
What about FE's "Duct Tape" incident.
Your Officer manguadi who repeatedly intentionally trained us?
Also, Eccezan didn't use MQ.
Bush Didn't knock down the towers.
The Mayans didn't disappear in an Alien spacecraft.
There isn't a lost city of Atlantis populate by merpeople.
There isn't a magic wardrobe you can walk into and find talking lions.
hmmmmm did I miss anything else>?

[Tasslehofp99]

Manguadi isn't in FE anymore, and he controlled Xeli.

Duct tape? lol atleast we don't use 3rd party auto-fire programs like certain members of TMO.

Eccezan may not have used MQ, but one of his accounts was flagged and never banned, which is far from fair to the other folks who's accounts WERE banned for being flagged (regardless of whether they used or not)


I only bring these things up to further emphasize my point that the rules on this server are not enforced properly, if at all. There are TONS of people cheating and getting away with it, on a regular basis. People who are caught cheating need to be banned, regardless of their affiliation or standing on the server. If you don't enforce rules fairly and properly, you are just helping to further lessen the integrity of the server!

Edit: The main issue on p99 is enforcement of the rules, there are many folks who take advantage of this to benefit themselves or their guild. There is plenty of proof of this documented by fraps as well as screenshots and logs, yet rarely anything is done to punish those responsible. Just this week a two-boxer was caught and banned, yet Jeremy was caught exploiting his IP exemption and gets nothing but a slap on the wrist? Now you've also got claims coming from the red server that 2boxing is pretty much unenforced there. This is what I'm referring to: if you don't enforce the rules, things get out of hand and they have.

[Autotune]

Yeah, I doubt anyone high up in TMO would use or need to use MQ during the time those accounts got flagged.

Also, You got your events jumbled. The motd was long before this and it was because people were getting over zealous and wanting to take matters in their own hands. Instead of making a MOTD saying "don't do it" knowing people don't listen worth a shit, he gave them some off advice to keep it from being a "guild thing". Why? Because it was becoming common place to raid suspend guilds for the actions of a single player doing something stupid.

[Tasslehofp99]

In other words, like I said, rules need to be enforced properly or eliminated all together. If you're going to ban one person for 2 boxing/exploiting and then turn around and let another player walk with a warning, you're already sending the wrong message to the players.

[Autotune]

Manguadi isn't in FE anymore, and he controlled Xeli.

Duct tape? lol atleast we don't use 3rd party auto-fire programs like certain members of TMO.

Eccezan may not have used MQ, but one of his accounts was flagged and never banned, which is far from fair to the other folks who's accounts WERE banned for being flagged (regardless of whether they used or not)


I only bring these things up to further emphasize my point that the rules on this server are not enforced properly, if at all. There are TONS of people cheating and getting away with it, on a regular basis. People who are caught cheating need to be banned, regardless of their affiliation or standing on the server. If you don't enforce rules fairly and properly, you are just helping to further lessen the integrity of the server!

Edit: The main issue on p99 is enforcement of the rules, there are many folks who take advantage of this to benefit themselves or their guild. There is plenty of proof of this documented by fraps as well as screenshots and logs, yet rarely anything is done to punish those responsible. Just this week a two-boxer was caught and banned, yet Jeremy was caught exploiting his IP exemption and gets nothing but a slap on the wrist? Now you've also got claims coming from the red server that 2boxing is pretty much unenforced there. This is what I'm referring to: if you don't enforce the rules, things get out of hand and they have.

If you're talking about this, I flagged that account along with flagging my own account and apparently decided to flag those accounts with my 3 different IPs.

Ephi cleared Eccezan and then pushed my problem up to Rogean, who as far as I know never even looked at it lol.

[Tasslehofp99]

If you're talking about this, I flagged that account along with flagging my own account and apparently decided to flag those accounts with my 3 different IPs.

Ephi cleared Eccezan and then pushed my problem up to Rogean, who as far as I know never even looked at it lol.


In other words, like I said, rules need to be enforced properly or eliminated all together. If you're going to ban one person for 2 boxing/exploiting and then turn around and let another player walk with a warning, you're already sending the wrong message to the players.

I'm just talking about rules going unenforced in general, or being "half" enforced. Shit needs to stop, or change, or something. There are folks on this server continually getting away with breaking the rules while others are banned instantly, how is this fair? Also, how are these folks evading the ban hammer?

For instance, how is Jeremy not banned when that fellow who tiggles' caught boxing was banned? They both essentially were using their IP exemptions to gain an unfair advantage over those of us who follow the rules. Rules need to be enforced fairly across the board, or not enforced at all.

[Alarti0001]

Manguadi isn't in FE anymore, and he controlled Xeli.

Duct tape? lol atleast we don't use 3rd party auto-fire programs like certain members of TMO.

Actually you did... that is the Duct Tape joke... lol Also, no TMO has used Autofire.

Eccezan may not have used MQ, but one of his accounts was flagged and never banned, which is far from fair to the other folks who's accounts WERE banned for being flagged (regardless of whether they used or not)

Ecc didn't use MQ is was provenWho are you saying is banned and didnt use MQ? Derp

[Autotune]

I'm just talking about rules going unenforced in general, or being "half" enforced. Shit needs to stop, or change, or something. There are folks on this server continually getting away with breaking the rules while others are banned instantly, how is this fair? Also, how are these folks evading the ban hammer?

For instance, how is Jeremy not banned when that fellow who tiggles' caught boxing was banned? They both essentially were using their IP exemptions to gain an unfair advantage over those of us who follow the rules. Rules need to be enforced fairly across the board, or not enforced at all.

Well, they have known (it was well known during the IB/VD vs TMO war) that IP exemptions let you log in without getting that "Please wait for whatever the fuck reason" message. Basically giving you a few second advantage in a game where milliseconds count.

They never banned anyone for doing it before and I don't know why they kept giving out IP exemptions for that shit (people were putting in exemptions left and right for it).

However, 2 boxing has always been one of the most harsh punishments on p99, so blatantly doing that is a sure fire way to get banned. Jeremy can attest to that.

As far as rule enforcement went, I think it's pretty obvious that each GM enforces the rules to how they want and not really a "by the book" deal. It's what you get when your work force does it for a hobby and not a check, no real incentive to not make friends or play favorites.

I mean, look at my petition to get that MQ flag stuff resolved. I never used the shit and even had Ambrotos state he knew I would never use it, yet it never went anywhere. G13'd the shit out of my petition lol.

Now I've seen other people in the past who got to deal with other staff members get their stuff lifted in no time. Just the way it goes.

[radditsu]

You people ruined this server. Fuck every single one of you. Have a nice day.

[Laugher]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view6/2469536/fez-i-say-good-day-o.gif
http://31.media.tumblr.com/e0cf853f9f1038604d35a1b9a9cc7efb/tumblr_msii5hkGB41s0my1wo1_500.gif

[susvain0362]

Theres too much work for the GMs to be perfect with dealing with cheaters. I cant imagine how much work they put in with everything, including investigating cheaters. They cant get everyone and spend time for a thorough research on all the petitions (i think). Theyre doing a pretty good job we should be thankful for what they do.

The server runs great and it gives all of us exactly what we want. A pretty much classic eq. You cant expect them to catch every cheater and you cant say "well, get them all or get none". Thats silly

[ncapatina]

Well this thread done gone to hell. So much for intelligent discourse...

RNF or bust!

[Tasslehofp99]

I just think you gotta have a clear set of rules that is enforced fairly for all people/guilds regardless of their standing on the server. That is something this server lacks as GMs rulings/decisions are different from gm to gm and case by case. If you have set rules that are enforced for everyone, there is no "wiggle room" so to speak. By that I mean that it would be easier to enforce the rules if they weren't ever-changing, and less cheaters/exploiters would get away with their infractions.

People may not realize how often the rules we have are broken, or how seldom those caught red handed are actually punished. I mean for christs sake bouncerr still plays here, jeremy has been.caught 2 boxing/ ip exemption exploiting numerous times, and accounts which were previously mq flagged/rmt are still unbanned/in use. When will we actually have some integrity on p99?

Ps I'm just talking about the obvious shit like exploiting, hacking, and 2 boxing. There are fuckloads of other shitheads who do grimy shit like train, ks, kite raid mobs, etc who continue doing so because they have no fear of being banned or having their toon deleted

[susvain0362]

And plenty of people who dont get caught and that GMs probally womtmcatch