Velious 2H changes

[Yinikren]

Does anyone know the game mechanics behind the 2H changes that come when velious gets released? I feel like, as a 43 SK, I do waaaay more dps solo with my Noctivagant Blade (18/26) than my Deathbringer's Rod (30/40), despite the NB being a 1HS.

I regularly hit for 60-75 with the blade, and while my average hit with the rod is 70 even, and I get highs of about 122, I get a lot of 40-50ish double attacks that I feel are doing less damage than the blade. Is this placebo because of the long delay, or is 2H damage really that nerfed pre-velious?

[Arteker]

Does anyone know the game mechanics behind the 2H changes that come when velious gets released? I feel like, as a 43 SK, I do waaaay more dps solo with my Noctivagant Blade (18/26) than my Deathbringer's Rod (30/40), despite the NB being a 1HS.

I regularly hit for 60-75 with the blade, and while my average hit with the rod is 70 even, and I get highs of about 122, I get a lot of 40-50ish double attacks that I feel are doing less damage than the blade. Is this placebo because of the long delay, or is 2H damage really that nerfed pre-velious?

2h update come way deep into velious.
2hands weapons where underpowered for long time , u just need to look at original weapons stats in velious release.
the change in 2hand mechanics realy worked although way better than expected 2hander superiority over 1hander would not be fixed till oow

[Yinikren]

Do you know the actual mechanic changes that took place? Besides the damage/delay ratio changes on velious 2handers. I keep thinking along the lines of better ratio=more DPS as an SK since we never get dual wield, so I keep wondering why I feel I outdps myself with a 1hs over a 2hb.

[Nogdar]

I think it's only something you feel.
While Nocti is a great weap, and the ebon mace even much more brutal, some 2 handers will come on top of em. I have a Jaid Inlaid Crescent Axe and it deals more damage than the ebon mace I reckon. Not a large margin, for sure, but still.

I'll agree that you need a top tier 2hander for this to be true though, it's indeed likely the ebon mace + shield would outdps the Rod you use. You can try parsing it to be certain, also ;)

[Tecmos Deception]

I think it's only something you feel.
While Nocti is a great weap, and the ebon mace even much more brutal, some 2 handers will come on top of em. I have a Jaid Inlaid Crescent Axe and it deals more damage than the ebon mace I reckon. Not a large margin, for sure, but still.

I'll agree that you need a top tier 2hander for this to be true though, it's indeed likely the ebon mace + shield would outdps the Rod you use. You can try parsing it to be certain, also ;)

This.

I have a 40 SK. Ebon mace is really nice, but granite face grinder outdoes it (and I bet deathbringers rod is VERY close to the mace's DPS).

Plus as a large race, you can still slam when using 2h (so you aren't really missing out on bash). And 2h get riposted less + riposte harder. And 2h lose less melee time because of spellcasts. And AC is of questionable benefit on p99 so losing a shield isn't a huge loss. Faster weapons have relatively higher thread than slower ones, but a SK isn't really too concerned with threat from weapons anyway... and noc blade is only slightly better thread than the rod anyway.

[myriverse]

At your level, NB should be significantly superior to the Rod.

[Tecmos Deception]

At your level, NB should be significantly superior to the Rod.

Why? How?

GFG outdamages ebon mace at 40, so I'm pretty sure deathbringer's rod will outdamage noc blade at 43.

[koros]

At your level, NB should be significantly superior to the Rod.

Incorrect, but it's quite close. At 51+ the damage bonus on 2h scales better. You shouldn't do more dps with NB but it may seem like it due to the slow attack rate/hit variance.

[heartbrand]

I have never seen a damage bonus on red99. I tested a wurmslayer 25/40 vs a Skarlon sword 25/40, both did the same max damage and both parsed essentially the same.

[myriverse]

Why? How?

GFG outdamages ebon mace at 40, so I'm pretty sure deathbringer's rod will outdamage noc blade at 43.
Because of that delay, you're getting way more hits at a higher average, and the 2h bonus hasn't yet caught up.

Edit: my bad... I was automatically figuring in a shield for bash

[Bohab]

"Two-Handed Weapons have been given an increased damage bonus for
characters over level 50. Also, certain post-epic quality two-handers
have been improved."

They scaled the dmg bonus. Basically they made it so you would never hit for like 20 dmg anymore with a 2h weapon that is 30/40/50dmg. They start hitting for 300+...

[Tecmos Deception]

Because of that delay, you're getting way more hits at a higher average, and the 2h bonus hasn't yet caught up.

Edit: my bad... I was automatically figuring in a shield for bash

You just explained why a 15/20 1h would be more damage than a 30/40 2h. But the deathbringer rod has a better ratio than the noc blade, so even though the noc blade benefits from the flat damage bonus more frequently, at 43 the deathbringer rod is still going to do more dps.

Like I said. My 40 SK (just 3 levels below the OP and the same class) does a fair amount more damage with the 29/36 GFG than with the 19/24 ebon mace... and those two even have a closer ratio to each other than noc blade and DB do.



OP: just go get gameparse, turn on logging in your ini file, then xp on 50 mobs with noc blade and then on 50 mobs with deathbringer, and you'll see firsthand which one does more damage. It really isn't a big difference, but you definitely aren't doing more damage with the noc blade.

[Stinkum]

Would like to see parses of the claim that a GFG at 29/36 does "a fair amount more" than a 19/24 ebon mace.

I would guess that GFG is probably is even with it or extremely trivially better.

[Wotsirb401]

I sold all of my 2h's on my monk because the dps/plat was soo not worth it. When you get double hits or even single htis for 60 with a 2h while you are filling the screen with 40-70 hits with your 1hs it's not even a contest right now. The same applies on my warrior

[Yaolin]

A lot of people seem to not do any parsing at all so I have no idea how you can have a solid opinion on DPS. Some 2H weapons have a good deal more DMG Bonus than 1H that cap out at 11. The Damage bonus on a T-Staff is about 20 and the dmg bonus on an Oggok Cleaver is somewhere between 25-30 I believe. A GFG should do about 7.5% more DPS than Ebon Mace at LvL 60. A 30/40 2H will do the same DPS as an Ebon Mace at LvL 60. Hybrids want the biggest delay possible so that they can cast spells between swings. A LvL 60 SK with 100% haste would have to cast spells in 1.2 seconds in order to be using an Ebon Mace to its full affect, using an Oggok Cleaver they have 3 seconds and that's a huge difference.

[webrunner5]

There is no way in hell 1 handers out damage good 2 handers on P1999! Ain't going to happen. Not past level 20.

[Zeonick]

I was just doing some parsing with my monk buddy last night. He has a jade mace, and is saving up for his knuckle dusters at the moment. For his 2h he uses a Wus quivering staff at 23/28 I believe.

He kept switching to just his jade mace and open fist for fun, and we were amazed that it seemed to be doing as much dps as the wus. So I opened up gamparse to get some data to look at. I couldnt figure out how to get gamparse to keep all our fights and give a dps over all, but it seemed like the 2hb was just barely out damaging a jade mace and open fist.

So my guess would be when he gets his KD and rocks the jm/kd combo it will do significantly more damage. Is this because misses can bring down your dps more with a 2hander because of a longer delay? Do 2hers generally miss less to compensate?

[Wotsirb401]

That is what I notice, either when I miss or hit for the extreme low end . I wont be using my 2h's until i am consistenly hitting over 150 every time , slashing for 60 with a 36 damage weapon is stupid, specially when my 14 damage weapons hit for 70-90 all the time !

[Stinkum]

Anyone have any parses or ancedotal evidence for the level 20-50 range for:

Shadow Knight with Ebon Mace (http://wiki.project1999.com/Ebon_Mace) vs. Shadow Knight with Deathbringer's Rod (http://wiki.project1999.com/Deathbringer%27s_Rod)

or

Paladin with Rod of Faith (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rod_of_Faith) vs. Paladin with Baton of Faith (http://wiki.project1999.com/Baton_of_Faith)

[Lune]

As a shadowknight I was extremely fucking disappointed with all my damage, no matter what weapon I was using. Ebon mace/rod of mourning

[koros]

Rogean posted this a while back, here's the DB code.

http://codepad.org/NjMM455H

Do ((weapon damage x 2) + damage bonus)/delay and you get your approximate relative damage. It parses out very close to actual performance. Classes with higher weapon/offensive max skill get a slight hit distribution benefit favoring pure ratio

[Tecmos Deception]

Anyone have any parses or ancedotal evidence for the level 20-50 range for:

Shadow Knight with Ebon Mace (http://wiki.project1999.com/Ebon_Mace) vs. Shadow Knight with Deathbringer's Rod (http://wiki.project1999.com/Deathbringer%27s_Rod)

or

Paladin with Rod of Faith (http://wiki.project1999.com/Rod_of_Faith) vs. Paladin with Baton of Faith (http://wiki.project1999.com/Baton_of_Faith)

I'm a numbers junkie, even though not to the level of some of the forum goers. When I say that GFG > ebon mace it's because I've been watching my logs with gameparse since I made my SK. I don't have anything conveniently ready to share atm because my logs aren't sorted into different files for which weapon I'm using or some shit, however. I did use ebon mace and deathbringers rod for a while in the mid-30s because I had sold my old GFG for a while, and I seem to recall doing maybe 5% more DPS with the rod.

Remember that, especially for a soloing SK who is casting a lot of lifetaps and stuff while in melee, a faster weapon is going to miss out on relatively more DPS time because of spellcasts. I can cast a lifedraw (40 SK) between swings of an oggok cleaver (even with CoF haste) without EVER having the swing timer pushed back because it comes due while lifespike is still casting; I'll probably delay some melee rounds if I'm using a 40-delay or a 36-delay weapon even if I just had fbss haste though. But if I'm swinging a 24 delay weapon even with NO haste, I'm going to be losing melee time every single time I cast lifedraw (2.45 second cast plus latency and human element).

Now imagine you're rocking item haste (even just an fbss) and spell haste (even just a shaman's buff) while swinging a 2.4 second delay weapon. You're going to end up losing DPS time even casting DC or SV.

[Tecmos Deception]

I'm parsing deathbringers rod and ebon mace in CoM right now. Won't do much, but motivated enough atm to do some at least.

[Stinkum]

Thanks Tec, let us know your results. Sidebar, but it might be good to point out that seems to be mainly true for SKs. Rod of Faith is 32 delay compared to GFG's 36. Not much of a difference there. And Pallies don't have offensive spells that make sense to use in between swings when soloing non-undead mobs.

[Tecmos Deception]

Thanks Tec, let us know your results. Sidebar, but it might be good to point out that seems to be mainly true for SKs. Rod of Faith is 32 delay compared to GFG's 36. Not much of a difference there. And Pallies don't have offensive spells that make sense to use in between swings when soloing non-undead mobs.

Yeah, I'm just talking about SKs cause that's what the OP was asking about. Not sure about cast times or cast frequency of pallies when they're tanking.

[Tecmos Deception]

Ebon Mace 15 kills in stables:

/tell Bewkif Bewkif -vs- Combined: A shadow: -- DMG: 7087 -- DPS: 18 -- Scaled: 17 -- Crush: 7087 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 280 -- Hits: 176 -- Missed: 101 -- Defended: 3 -- Accuracy: 63.5% -- Avg Hit: 40 -- Max hit: 78 -- DMG to PC: 0


Deathbringers Rod 15 kills in stables:

/tell Bewkif Bewkif -vs- Combined: Plaguebone skeleton: -- DMG: 7695 -- DPS: 16 -- Scaled: 16 -- Crush: 7674 -- Hit: 21 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 196 -- Hits: 127 -- Missed: 68 -- Defended: 1 -- Accuracy: 65.1% -- Avg Hit: 60 -- Max hit: 125 -- DMG to PC: 151



Not sure why I volunteered to do a 20-minute parse when I'm claiming there is only a 5% difference. I'd probably need to log for hours with each weapon to really pinpoint the difference when it is so small.

For pure melee, no casting involved, this tiny sample does make it look like ebon mace beats out deathbringers rod (at 40 for a SK, anyways).



I stand by my claim that the rod will do 5% or more more damage than a noc blade though.

[kaev]

Thanks Tec, let us know your results. Sidebar, but it might be good to point out that seems to be mainly true for SKs. Rod of Faith is 32 delay compared to GFG's 36. Not much of a difference there. And Pallies don't have offensive spells that make sense to use in between swings when soloing non-undead mobs.

Delete the "non-undead" there for accuracy. Anti-undead nukes are slow-casting, not useful except to do damage on the pull, to do damage re-engaging after rooting to back off and heal while solo (assuming 45+ and not emptying your manabar to heal), or to try for a giggle-worthy killshot vs. undead mob in Fear or Hate. Paladin combat advantage fighting undead mobs is actually very nearly zero in this era (excluding a lowbie with a Ghoulbane in Unrest.)

On-Topic:
2handers get slightly better damage bonus than 1handers at this time, but not really enough to compensate fully for slower swing compared to all but the slowest 1handers. They can feel inferior due to long delay, but better ratio wins. Baton of Faith (2hb 30/40) clearly out-performed Sword of the Morning (1hs 16/27) plus Clay Guardian Shield (ac25) for me solo in late 40s. I could not kill low blues (or sometimes even light blues) reliably solo with SotM+CGS, but could with BoF.

[koros]

Ebon Mace 15 kills in stables:

/tell Bewkif Bewkif -vs- Combined: A shadow: -- DMG: 7087 -- DPS: 18 -- Scaled: 17 -- Crush: 7087 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 280 -- Hits: 176 -- Missed: 101 -- Defended: 3 -- Accuracy: 63.5% -- Avg Hit: 40 -- Max hit: 78 -- DMG to PC: 0


Deathbringers Rod 15 kills in stables:

/tell Bewkif Bewkif -vs- Combined: Plaguebone skeleton: -- DMG: 7695 -- DPS: 16 -- Scaled: 16 -- Crush: 7674 -- Hit: 21 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 196 -- Hits: 127 -- Missed: 68 -- Defended: 1 -- Accuracy: 65.1% -- Avg Hit: 60 -- Max hit: 125 -- DMG to PC: 151



Not sure why I volunteered to do a 20-minute parse when I'm claiming there is only a 5% difference. I'd probably need to log for hours with each weapon to really pinpoint the difference when it is so small.

For pure melee, no casting involved, this tiny sample does make it look like ebon mace beats out deathbringers rod (at 40 for a SK, anyways).



I stand by my claim that the rod will do 5% or more more damage than a noc blade though.

Ebon mace should outdamage it. ((19 * 2) + 5)/24 = 1.7916 for Ebon vs. ((30*2)+7)/40 = 1.675

= 7% more dps... the math works every time.

[Tecmos Deception]

15 fights with GFG:

/tell Bewkif Bewkif -vs- Combined: Greater spurbone: -- DMG: 7820 -- DPS: 18 -- Scaled: 18 -- Crush: 7820 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 208 -- Hits: 132 -- Missed: 76 -- Accuracy: 63.5% -- Avg Hit: 59 -- Max hit: 123 -- DMG to PC: 252


Guess I maybe stand corrected, based on these little samples! :p

[Nogdar]

On-Topic:
2handers get slightly better damage bonus than 1handers at this time, but not really enough to compensate fully for slower swing compared to all but the slowest 1handers.

I don't really agree. If this table: DMG bonus (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1) - which I pretty much trust is anywhere near reality, there's some serious difference in dmg bonus between 1 handers and 2 handers... Even if your points are definitely valid.

Anyways, thanks Tecmos for the testing, seems our wild guesses were good! :)

[kaev]

I don't really agree. If this table: DMG bonus (http://lucy.allakhazam.com/dmgbonus.html?setcookie=1) - which I pretty much trust is anywhere near reality, there's some serious difference in dmg bonus between 1 handers and 2 handers... Even if your points are definitely valid.

Anyways, thanks Tecmos for the testing, seems our wild guesses were good! :)

That's the mid-Velious 2hander bonus damage fix. Not current here.

[ncapatina]

Remember that, especially for a soloing SK who is casting a lot of lifetaps and stuff while in melee, a faster weapon is going to miss out on relatively more DPS time because of spellcasts.

Exactly the type of things that make "in a vacuum" log parse comparisons useless. This doesn't even factor in missing swings due to mob movement if it switches agro, or you switching in between targets while fighting multiple enemies. EQ has a way of hiding these things more so than current MMORPGs that rely on strict rotations, debuffs, building stacks of buffs, etc.

You're a pro Tecmos, trust your instincts.

[Wrench]

Remember that, especially for a soloing SK who is casting a lot of lifetaps and stuff while in melee, a faster weapon is going to miss out on relatively more DPS time because of spellcasts. I can cast a lifedraw (40 SK) between swings of an oggok cleaver (even with CoF haste) without EVER having the swing timer pushed back because it comes due while lifespike is still casting; I'll probably delay some melee rounds if I'm using a 40-delay or a 36-delay weapon even if I just had fbss haste though. But if I'm swinging a 24 delay weapon even with NO haste, I'm going to be losing melee time every single time I cast lifedraw (2.45 second cast plus latency and human element).

a soloing sk aint gonna be casting that much, unless they're rocking c2 or sitting for 5 mins between pulls

what, 1 maybe 2 lifetap per fight? let's throw in a couple more casts for dc and debuff/buffs

i'd argue those 4 slightly longer swings of a 24 delay weapon are barely gonna be noticeable in your parse for soloing a mob to death

[ncapatina]

In some cases yes, but I guess my intention was to be more general. Parses don't factor in playing the actual game and situational things. If everything else is equal or almost equal, the weapon that allows for the unexpected better will likely end up being more damage in the long haul.

[Tecmos Deception]

a soloing sk aint gonna be casting that much, unless they're rocking c2 or sitting for 5 mins between pulls

what, 1 maybe 2 lifetap per fight? let's throw in a couple more casts for dc and debuff/buffs

i'd argue those 4 slightly longer swings of a 24 delay weapon are barely gonna be noticeable in your parse for soloing a mob to death

Are you soloing a SK right now? Cause I am. And I cast a shitload with him, because if I didn't, I'd be sitting down for med breaks at 25% hp and 75% mp and then I'd either be engaging a new mob at 40% hp so that I don't waste med ticks or I'd be wasting a bunch of med ticks while I wait for my hp to catch up to my mp.

If you're fear kiting then you won't be casting much, but I'm usually soloing in dungeons waiting on a group or something so usually not enough room to be doing that.

[Wrench]

Are you soloing a SK right now? Cause I am. And I cast a shitload with him, because if I didn't, I'd be sitting down for med breaks at 25% hp and 75% mp and then I'd either be engaging a new mob at 40% hp so that I don't waste med ticks or I'd be wasting a bunch of med ticks while I wait for my hp to catch up to my mp.

5 min med breaks, gotcha

[Yinikren]

OP here. Glad to see I am not retarded with what I see/feel and this thread exploded with observations.

I cast a shitload during fights, but its mostly <2.0s stuff since I'm fear kiting spectres in the feerrott. I have time to spare with a Deathbringer's Rod before I miss the swing timer casting, but I'm not quite sure if the lower dps (I feel) makes not missing those swing timers actually worth it.

Glad to see this thread developed, and I knew I felt it in my gut that the NB was doing similar if not greater damage than my 2H.

I'd like me an Ebon Mace, but I simply can't afford it. A NB will do for me for now, it seems.

[kunark_lizzie]

So based on this am I right in thinking i'd be doing more damage with a noc blade vs my dbr at lvl 31?

I don t own a great 1h to test with, only sword of skyfire but, id save up and buy one if id be better off with it. I domt ever solo, i mainly duo with a shm.

what do you guys think? Do I need to buy a noc blade?

[Tecmos Deception]

It's about the same lizzie. You might as well save money unless you really want to do the sword and board thing for some special reason. Deathbringers rod is so nice and cheap but still provides nearly the damage you'd get from a 10k or 15k weapon.

[kunark_lizzie]

Thanks. I'll stick with DBR as it seemes to be working well enough - just didn't want to be missing the boat.

[Yinikren]

Now that I think about it, another thing that will affect the damage done is the amount of time spent in melee range. I fear kite mostly - I am not always in melee range, so if I miss a 2H swing timer because I am casting, I end up waiting another 3.3 seconds to swing again. I'm sure that's the reason I seem to do so much more damage with a 1H.

[webrunner5]

You people are crazy. No 1 hander on a SK or Pally is going to out damage a good 2 hander. The damage bonus on a 2 hander is WAY above 1 handers.

Even a Warrior the best weapon from 20 to 50 or epic is Staff of Battle. Ranger best weapon is Woodsman's Staff till epic, Monk T Staff till epic. Get off this stupid 1 Hander stuff. :o

Now if you are trying to hold agro, then yes, fast 1 handers are the way to go. But they do less damage.

[Vega]

Ebon Mace 15 kills in stables:

/tell Bewkif Bewkif -vs- Combined: A shadow: -- DMG: 7087 -- DPS: 18 -- Scaled: 17 -- Crush: 7087 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 280 -- Hits: 176 -- Missed: 101 -- Defended: 3 -- Accuracy: 63.5% -- Avg Hit: 40 -- Max hit: 78 -- DMG to PC: 0


Deathbringers Rod 15 kills in stables:

/tell Bewkif Bewkif -vs- Combined: Plaguebone skeleton: -- DMG: 7695 -- DPS: 16 -- Scaled: 16 -- Crush: 7674 -- Hit: 21 -- Non-crit rate: 100% -- Attempts: 196 -- Hits: 127 -- Missed: 68 -- Defended: 1 -- Accuracy: 65.1% -- Avg Hit: 60 -- Max hit: 125 -- DMG to PC: 151

I'm interested, do these parses include slam/bash? I don't play a large race SK on p99, but it seems like I remember on live that slam doesn't do as much damage as bash. Is that correct?

[Yinikren]

I bash for 20, with or without a shield, but I do more respectable bash damage with a shield (slam likes to hit for 1). As for Webrunner, parses are clearly showing similar damage between similar ratio 1 and 2 handers. It looks like the pre-50 damage bonus is negligible.

[koros]

FFS. What part of the basic formula I laid out makes this even debatable for some of you? That's how the distribution works over time. Either learn statistics or trust people who understand math better than you. That formula literally lays out, in a "plug the numbers in" sort of way, how a weapon performs.

[Nogdar]

I'm interested, do these parses include slam/bash? I don't play a large race SK on p99, but it seems like I remember on live that slam doesn't do as much damage as bash. Is that correct?

I think Slam "becomes" Bash if you're wearing a shield, and deals slightly more damage then. But tbh the difference can be neglected.

[kaev]

You people are crazy. No 1 hander on a SK or Pally is going to out damage a good 2 hander. The damage bonus on a 2 hander is WAY above 1 handers.

Even a Warrior the best weapon from 20 to 50 or epic is Staff of Battle. Ranger best weapon is Woodsman's Staff till epic, Monk T Staff till epic. Get off this stupid 1 Hander stuff. :o

Now if you are trying to hold agro, then yes, fast 1 handers are the way to go. But they do less damage.

No, 2h damage bonus is NOT way above 1h in current era. Actual damage bonus on 2handers is only slightly better than 1handers at this time, it's not the huge difference we'll see with the 2h damage revamp during velious.

[Wrench]

^ you cant fight senility with logic

[kaev]

Even with the improved 2h bonus, a 40 delay 2hander at L49 gets 13dmg bonus which adds 0.325 to the ratio. This is only slightly more than 9 damage bonus gives for a 28 delay 1hander (0.321) and less than for a 27 delay 1hander (0.333) at L49.

Damage bonuses for 2handers give big numbers, but big numbers don't guarantee better actual damage over time.

[webrunner5]

Interesting read for those that have not seen it about weapons. http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=111045&highlight=damage+weapon

[Clark]

Ebon mace/Oggok Cleaver for sure; until epic.