2 wu's trance sticks vs wu's quivering staff

[mk227]

I know this question has been asked a bunch, but I still can't understand that monk damage chart someone posted. I have a lvl 10 monk right now and am not sure if I'm supposed to be dual wielding the trance sticks or just stick with wu's quivering until i get an upgrade later down the road? or hold onto both?

[Yaolin]

Wu's Quivering always

[jijii]

Trance sticks to look cool.

Quivering staff to BE cool.

[gotrocks]

dont listen to either of these guys.

trance sticks till 20, then use quivering and be happy. dmg cap comes off at 20 so until then using quivering is worthless, except to keep your 2hb skill up

[Loke]

dont listen to either of these guys.

trance sticks till 20, then use quivering and be happy. dmg cap comes off at 20 so until then using quivering is worthless, except to keep your 2hb skill up

This. It isn't even a matter of opinion. Anyone who says otherwise is wrong.

[koros]

Except, due to no damage bonus and very low duel wield chance, I'm pretty sure the WQS will still outdamage it. I'd have to run the math but 75% sure it wins.

[Loke]

Except, due to no damage bonus and very low duel wield chance, I'm pretty sure the WQS will still outdamage it. I'd have to run the math but 75% sure it wins.

I would be interested in seeing this math. Having spent more time playing / parsing a monk than almost anyone on this server, I'm more than 75% sure you're wrong.

[koros]

Quick off the cuff calculations...

WQS capped as an approximately 14 damage weapon = 14/29

(14 * 2)/29 = .965

(7*2)/18 = .777 + ((19 + 100) / 500)(.777) = .9619 at level 19

So.... There you go, and duel wield is even lower % at lower levels.

That's assuming I'm correct in assuming duel wield is 100 at level 19.

[dancingclown22]

As someone who 100% soloed my monk from 1-46 in the past month, fighting nearly identical mobs in the appropriate level ranges, with only a Wu's Quivering staff and 2 Trance sticks, all numbers and charts aside, Quivering staff is more damage. Sure it's nice when the trance sticks proc like crazy (which isn't even until lvl 35), so i'll switch them in every now and then to just have a change of pace, but on average quivering staff is definitely better.

[Loke]

As someone who 100% soloed my monk from 1-46 in the past month, fighting nearly identical mobs in the appropriate level ranges, with only a Wu's Quivering staff and 2 Trance sticks, all numbers and charts aside, Quivering staff is more damage. Sure it's nice when the trance sticks proc like crazy (which isn't even until lvl 35), so i'll switch them in every now and then to just have a change of pace, but on average quivering staff is definitely better.

We're talking about a L10 monk here. Way different pre and post dmg cap. I plan on parsing this once I find some time.

[koros]

I just showed you the math, keeping in mind the damage cap.

[dancingclown22]

We're talking about a L10 monk here. Way different pre and post dmg cap. I plan on parsing this once I find some time.

I'm not arguing that it's not different pre and post dmg cap. But even pre 20, the difference in DPS will be microscopic at best. Go with what's more fun to you. If you already have WQS, you might as well keep it and save yourself the time in EC trading. You'll be 20 by then anyway.

[Loke]

I just showed you the math, keeping in mind the damage cap.

Not arguing your math, just that the math and in game don't always work out as we think. I'm basing my info off ~2 years of playing and parsing a monk here, but it has also been awhile since I played my monk as a main, so I don't know. I was just saying that I'd parse it once I find some time, as currently I'm not on a PC that has EQ or a parser. I could very well be wrong, but still don't think I am.

[koros]

Not arguing your math, just that the math and in game don't always work out as we think. I'm basing my info off ~2 years of playing and parsing a monk here, but it has also been awhile since I played my monk as a main, so I don't know. I was just saying that I'd parse it once I find some time, as currently I'm not on a PC that has EQ or a parser. I could very well be wrong, but still don't think I am.

The game uses formulas which result in a predictable distribution of hits. The formulas we use to calculate it do the same. That would be like me saying, "the odds of flipping a coin and it ending up heads is 50%" and you replying, "well that's just in theory, in practice that's not always the case"

[Loke]

The game uses formulas which result in a predictable distribution of hits. The formulas we use to calculate it do the same. That would be like me saying, "the odds of flipping a coin and it ending up heads is 50%" and you replying, "well that's just in theory, in practice that's not always the case"

Yes, but the formulas aren't always what we think they are. For example, for years on this server 2-hand damage bonuses did not differentiate between weapons above and below 40 delay. That is why RFS and T-staff both parsed on par with Ton Po's. Someone back then could have waved around equations on the forum, but still been dead wrong about what actually happened in game. My point is that unless a dev shows up here and pastes some code for us, I'm going to trust a parse over some math some random guy posted on the forums, especially when it goes against what has routinely been held as true (that 1-hand is king sub L20).

[koros]

And if someone said that I would have posted this. Per Rogean.

http://codepad.org/NjMM455H

Code as it was on live, in line with the timeline. I know what I'm talking about.

Relevant part (in reference to what you're talking about about the damage bonus not changing based on delay):

// Kunark until Sep. 19, 2000, better than 1H bonus.
else if (RuleI(Combat,TwoHandedDmgBonus) == 1)
{
if (GetLevel() > 50)
return ((GetLevel() - 7) / 3);
else
return ((GetLevel() - 25) / 2);
}

[Loke]

I was just using the 2hb thing as an example of how people can apply formulas yet have them not equate to actual in-game performance for whatever reason, be it a miscalculation, unknown variables, wrong equation all together, or whatever. Sometime over the next couple days I'll actually stop being lazy and parse a 25-50 mob sample size on a L1 monk using both weapons. We can argue about formulas and what should be true all day, but until someone actually tests it in game we're just going to argue in circles. Even you admit that you made some assumptions in your original calculations. I'm not saying that there is some mystical factor that causes the game to perform differently from the coding, just that your calculations don't jive with what myself and a large portion of the server as observed, so I think we can only assume that both my anecdotal evidence and your calculations could both be flawed - hence my desire to parse it (when I can, so busy!)

[koros]

I was just using the 2hb thing as an example of how people can apply formulas yet have them not equate to actual in-game performance for whatever reason, be it a miscalculation, unknown variables, wrong equation all together, or whatever. Sometime over the next couple days I'll actually stop being lazy and parse a 25-50 mob sample size on a L1 monk using both weapons. We can argue about formulas and what should be true all day, but until someone actually tests it in game we're just going to argue in circles. Even you admit that you made some assumptions in your original calculations. I'm not saying that there is some mystical factor that causes the game to perform differently from the coding, just that your calculations don't jive with what myself and a large portion of the server as observed, so I think we can only assume that both my anecdotal evidence and your calculations could both be flawed - hence my desire to parse it (when I can, so busy!)

What's the max hit < 10? Is it 20? If so then this only applies 10+

[Splorf22]

The game uses formulas which result in a predictable distribution of hits. The formulas we use to calculate it do the same. That would be like me saying, "the odds of flipping a coin and it ending up heads is 50%" and you replying, "well that's just in theory, in practice that's not always the case"

I'm not saying Loke is right, but the median hit model is just an approximation; comparing it with coin flipping is somewhat disingenuous. There are so many variables that could account for a difference (for example the particular AC/implementation of P1999, especially because I am almost certain it isn't classic or the relatively higher level of mobs that our highly twinked playerbase fights at low levels) that I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss experience. Ultimately you need an experiment.

[crkhobbit]

Im almost 100% sure that dual wield cap is way higher than 100 at 19. I quit dw'ing completely when I hit 20, and my dw skill is at least 145.

[Estu]

Im almost 100% sure that dual wield cap is way higher than 100 at 19. I quit dw'ing completely when I hit 20, and my dw skill is at least 145.

Yeah, this sounds right - I think monks do have higher dual wield caps than the standard skill cap at low levels.

[koros]

If they're that high than trance sticks will indeed outperform WQS til 20.

[dractus]

What's the going rate for Wu's Quivering on our server these days? Good first wep investment?

[Estu]

http://wiki.project1999.com/Wu%27s_Quivering_Staff

[Cyph]

dmg cap comes off at 20

Hmm? There's a damage cap up to level 20? Who does it apply to?
--update--
Found an answer to the cap on the wiki;
Damage cap = (dmg * 2) where dmg is the weapon's stated damage.

levels 1-9 - damage cap is 20
levels 10-19 - damage cap is 28
Levels 20-29 - damage cap is 60
30+ - lifted, can do 2x weapon damage or more based on class

--Question #2--
Can anyone provide me the mechanic concerning how often dual wield strikes trigger?

[Intrinsic]

What's the going rate for Wu's Quivering on our server these days? Good first wep investment?

Crazy cheap for what it is, mainly due to it's weight :) 250p is what you can expect to pay, or cheaper(have seen em at 150p) don't pay more. If you don't have the cash to invest in very light gear though i'd say 2x trance sticks are prolly a better return.

[koros]

Hmm? There's a damage cap up to level 20? Who does it apply to?
--update--
Found an answer to the cap on the wiki;
Damage cap = (dmg * 2) where dmg is the weapon's stated damage.

levels 1-9 - damage cap is 20
levels 10-19 - damage cap is 28
Levels 20-29 - damage cap is 60
30+ - lifted, can do 2x weapon damage or more based on class

--Question #2--
Can anyone provide me the mechanic concerning how often dual wield strikes trigger?

(Level + Skill)/500

[Cyph]

Thanks koros! Someone should update the wiki with that :)

[gotrocks]

If they're that high than trance sticks will indeed outperform WQS til 20.

it is that high, monks get an insane DW skill even at low lvls.

reconfirming my previous statement that trance stick till 20 then WQS till you die or get a ifs/preacebringer is the way to go.

to someone elses question, WQS is the best monk purchase you can make as far as bang for your buck goes.

[Ciroco]

Just wanna chime in here: there's really no reason to have a trance stick in your offhand, especially if it's not proccing. The ratio on that thing is not good.

[dractus]

From what I've gathered, it sounds like WQS is the more sound investment, as I'll probably be closer to 20 by then anyway (hopefully). Fists are pretty decent in the meantime- they scale up with level, yes?

[Estu]

From what I've gathered, it sounds like WQS is the more sound investment, as I'll probably be closer to 20 by then anyway (hopefully). Fists are pretty decent in the meantime- they scale up with level, yes?

http://wiki.project1999.com/Monk#Hand_to_Hand_Damage.2FDelay