How to make leveling more interesting

[eqravenprince]

This is all a completely hypothetical topic, not asking for the server to be changed. Just bored at work and seeing if anyone also feels the same as I do.

I always thought it was kind of retarded that a person could be powerleveled or simply grind away in easy zones and stay close to zone lines and make it to max level. My ideal MMO encourages travel and dungeon crawling to the deepest part of the dungeon where you can't just run to the zone line. I want it so when I bump into a high level character, I know they have been everywhere and earned the skills that come from going everywhere. With that being said, I thought it would be cool to somehow involve all the major dungeons in quest lines that were required to level.

Let's take Runnyeye as an example, no one goes there. What if you had to collect some things from them as part of a bigger quest in order to level beyond 25. Maybe the quest also sends you to Najena and Permafrost to collect things. I wouldn't make the quest involve killing named, I would make it collecting an uncommon drop off anything that gives experience. I would want some kind of code put in place that high levels couldn't trivialize this for people. I would want it so you have to earn it the hard way and encourage grouping with people near your level.

[fadetree]

I've always thought a diminishing return of exp for killing the same mob in the same zone would be interesting. The system would keep track, and everytime you kill a particular mob in a particular zone, then exp would be slightly degraded according to some curve. Eventually, you would get next to no experience. This would be in addition to level-based exp reductions.

This even makes sense, sort of, since 'experience' is supposed to mimic you 'learning' from encounters, which is why its called 'experience'. How much new are you going to learn from whacking a mob for the 1000th time? I mean, I killed crags for FIVE levels on my shaman. If, after the first 100 or so, the exp dropped off, I would have had to relocate. Say, to mammoths, which I am now killing by the truckload.

This sort of happens anyway, in terms of levelling out of the range of a zones mobs, but it would be interesting to apply it on a per mob basis and make it happen a little faster.

[Andervin]

Would you also like fries with that Sir? :D

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

Paging Swish to the thread!!!

Catsdoingfunnythingsnotclassic.gif

[Abner]

I thought we were all here to play classic Everquest. :cool:

[Shoran91]

ZEM is in here to kind of do that.

[myxomatosii]

This is all a completely hypothetical topic, not asking for the server to be changed. Just bored at work and seeing if anyone also feels the same as I do.

I always thought it was kind of retarded that a person could be powerleveled or simply grind away in easy zones and stay close to zone lines and make it to max level. My ideal MMO encourages travel and dungeon crawling to the deepest part of the dungeon where you can't just run to the zone line. I want it so when I bump into a high level character, I know they have been everywhere and earned the skills that come from going everywhere. With that being said, I thought it would be cool to somehow involve all the major dungeons in quest lines that were required to level.

Let's take Runnyeye as an example, no one goes there. What if you had to collect some things from them as part of a bigger quest in order to level beyond 25. Maybe the quest also sends you to Najena and Permafrost to collect things. I wouldn't make the quest involve killing named, I would make it collecting an uncommon drop off anything that gives experience. I would want some kind of code put in place that high levels couldn't trivialize this for people. I would want it so you have to earn it the hard way and encourage grouping with people near your level.

I do like incentives to go to unused zones. I don't like a potential farming requirement on X mob.

So many unused zones. This brings another point which I will get to at the end of my post.

Perhaps a rotating exp bonus (either a changing ZEM or on top of ZEM) to encourage exploration outside of the typical ZEMd zones, which while not classic, does fit with some of the things that have been going on lately with introducing a bonus to help the potential MACers transition.

We are all here for the same reason, to experience EQ as we never did, or to re-experience it as we imagined it had been. The once impossible. But how many zones? I myself can say to certainty there are a variety of zones I have zero to no familiarity with, personally:

sola
befallen
south ro
guk top (aside from scryer)
freeport catacombs
paw <~ always been interested in this zone
kithicor (aside from RV wall..)
either rathe
kerra island . . .
etc

And how many fun camps must there be in those zones that I and so many others have yet to experience? Just a side-note.

point
A lot of you may know about my recent involvement on the red server and the bridging of KWSN into a purple guild, taking part in both servers actively. Its story time, I lack the gift of brevity.

So I made my red enchanter, dark elf. Melee/cast my way to level 10. Neato, where next? Well lacking bind I don't want to venture off into the commonlands, makes for long CR, so where is the default DE bind point close to? Lavastorm! O man I miss that place, such a cool zone. But nay, when I arrived I found the mobs to largely be red and yellow cons with a rare even. So, into najena I went.. o a blue skellie, nice! It was here that I found a perfect cycle of 6-10 mobs that could excellently support a group of 8-12s which is never ever camped or utilized on blue.

And why was I here? Covertness. That brought back memories, the need to be covert on a PvP server led me to amazing discoveries and explorations, essentially walling oneself off within a crypt of monsters where even a higher level pk would struggle at the annoyance of arriving at you. In fact on Sullon Zek I think my mage spent 8 levels at the Ancient Croc spawn in Luclin era because everyone had forgotten about it. Went all that time, 65s zoned in, 65s zoned out, hunting players but would never find me. So, I see that obviously this can be twisted into a negative light where the need to undertake this kind of action is seen as unnecessary and hindering I see it quite differently. Struggle makes the gains fought for sweeter to the taste.

/point

[Andervin]

Perhaps a rotating exp bonus (either a changing ZEM or on top of ZEM) to encourage exploration outside of the typical ZEMd zones, which while not classic, does fit with some of the things that have been going on lately with introducing a bonus to help the potential MACers transition.

EQLive has been doing this for awhile now. Every few months they change it around.

[Shoran91]

i went into befallen to check it out on my level 12 rogue and died from a ghoul that was either trained there or patrols to the entrance. Bad first experience :( read the first level is really low level so I wanted to see lol

[myxomatosii]

EQLive has been doing this for awhile now. Every few months they change it around.

And while I didn't wanna make p99 more like EQEMU, I think with the intelligent community and staff that I like to think we have it could be a well thought out addition to the server.

I'm not saying it'd be exactly like live, just like everything else it would be talked over for some time and the possibilities worked out. I'd assume it could be automatic. Once a month seems frequent enough for me to not get stale, once every few months feels slow but that's just me... maybe once per patch. Not really sure how hard this stuff is to change.

i went into befallen to check it out on my level 12 rogue and died from a ghoul that was either trained there or patrols to the entrance. Bad first experience :( read the first level is really low level so I wanted to see lol

That was certainly a train, no ghouls on the first level. I think Skeleton Llrodd is the highest dude before you use your first key and he doesn't even agro. You should've been fine.

[Shoran91]

That was certainly a train, no ghouls on the first level. I think Skeleton Llrodd is the highest dude before you use your first key and he doesn't even agro. You should've been fine.

Yeah, I zoned in immediatly aggroed it and was rooted till death. Very sad v . v

[Samoht Farstrider]

I have been on Befallen an few times and that ghoul is there about 50% of the time.

[eqravenprince]

People talk about how EQ is awesome due to the challenge and WoW is easy mode. Yet barely any groups go to challenging dungeons like Befallen, Najena, Runnyeye, Sol A, Permafrost, Dalnir, and Cazic Thule and they have high ZEMs, apparently not high enough.

[indiscriminate_hater]

bring back kedge

[Versch]

The ghoul is part of the Gynok Moltor spawn chain. It can be a ghoul, large skeleton, icebone skeleton, giant rat or the named himself. It was not a train, as that spawn will path from zone in to the next floor down.

[Kergan]

Groups? What Groups?

I think rotating ZEM isn't a bad idea at all. It's not like ZEM itself is classic, and nobody knows the exact values anyway. We already dick with the exp here might as well incentivize people to check shit out.

Honestly though, lets say you jack paw to a 200 ZEM you're just going to have people plvling there instead of somewhere else. There aren't enough low to mid level players to support a lot of grouping. The game starts 55+ when we all get crammed into the same half a dozen places, or you can go solo those previously difficult encounters in mid level dungeons with ease.

In the mid 40s killing mid to high 30s blues (outdoors) I'm pulling like 6-7% a kill solo and getting a kill about every 3-4 minutes. I don't think even a good group is going to be much (if any) better.

[Alphathree33]

Experience = difficulty X risk X novelty

You should get lots more experience for pulling one mob, accidentally getting 4 more adds, having the cleric go to OOM, the tank almost dead, and using all your cooldowns to survive... than you should for killing a single mob with six people piling on.

High Difficulty/Risk = aggro from monsters that collectively represent a big threat versus the current state of the group (mana, health, buffs, level, gear, class configuration)

High Novelty = you've rarely defeated an encounter with these parameters (types of mobs, number of mobs, location) before

Note that the present system of "green/blue/red" cons is an approximation of the difficulty metric, but looks only at comparative level -- an impoverished view of the actual situation.

And it doesn't consider novelty at all.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

People talk about how EQ is awesome due to the challenge and WoW is easy mode. Yet barely any groups go to challenging dungeons like Befallen, Najena, Runnyeye, Sol A, Permafrost, Dalnir, and Cazic Thule and they have high ZEMs, apparently not high enough.

The game has a very sharp curve with regards to resists and hits/misses (both on you and the target) if there is a large discrepancy in levels between you and what you're fighting. Nothing makes for a shittier time than your level 9 group getting fist-fucked by a level 18 ghoul in a dungeon with key progression.

A shitty but classic fact about EQ in this era was that the zones were designed to hold a very large range of levels. You could xp in befallen from level 3-25 if you were picky about the mobs. The unintended side effect was that you would essentially be walled off from content with a very good chance your "wall" would come screaming at you with the force of 50 mobs your level. The long and short of it is that high ZEMs only serve power levelers and nothing short of a revamp will change it, which isn't going to happen because classic.

We all have our reasons for choosing this server as our vice but I think most of us came here because it was classic, not perfect.

Tl;dr - original dungeons suck and rarely worth it. Shits classic.

[myxomatosii]

Groups? What Groups?

I think rotating ZEM isn't a bad idea at all. It's not like ZEM itself is classic, and nobody knows the exact values anyway. We already dick with the exp here might as well incentivize people to check shit out.

Honestly though, lets say you jack paw to a 200 ZEM you're just going to have people plvling there instead of somewhere else. There aren't enough low to mid level players to support a lot of grouping. The game starts 55+ when we all get crammed into the same half a dozen places, or you can go solo those previously difficult encounters in mid level dungeons with ease.

In the mid 40s killing mid to high 30s blues (outdoors) I'm pulling like 6-7% a kill solo and getting a kill about every 3-4 minutes. I don't think even a good group is going to be much (if any) better.

To avoid the cram effect like Paw I was thinking 2-3 zones would be on each rotation, given EQ's tendency to have zones like highkeep which is a great zone for
11-15
22-34
49-55
rotating ZEMs could potentially impact 2-4 level ranges of players since a single zone can cater to many ranges.
If you do like 3 zones per rotation that's 3(2-4) = 6-12 areas that open and close each cycle.
Assuming each area only has one realizable camp, which most have more making it 6-12++.

[Velerin]

Dungeons are obviously so much more fun than outdoor zones but the bottom line is the way EQ was designed outdoor zones are almost always more efficient. CRs and death exp penalties all make for more risk, more challenge but it also makes people sit on zonelines and in outdoor zones.
I love classic eq but always thought the exp loss was just too much. It could easily be halved and still be a good challenge. You already have to do a naked CR, possibly dying again in the process. (i'm not asking it to be changed here, its not classic)
For pure leveling experience, OT is just better for 90% of people than say Sol B/Guk. As sad and boring as OT is, as more fun as Sol B/Guk are.

OT = safe place to med/rest/afk, constant single pulls as fast as you can kill them, wide range of mobs for different levels, low aggro range (pretty much will never get non-singles unless really sloppy), use any combo of people (solo, duo, trio), as long as you have jboots/sow no chance of death.

Sol B/Guk = need a decent group, time to set up, time to break initial camp, limited by spawns, low experience due to range of player lvls often (Need a tank..only tank available is 45 troll SK and everyone else is 38-42, well everyone's not getting much exp now) and of course chance for train/wipe, CR, exp loss, etc.

When eq live reduced exp loss and made CRs easier it actually made people explore dungeons a lot more often.

[Retti_]

Do it on red99

Faster gains

Pvp

Global ooc

[skipdog]

Groups? What Groups?

I think rotating ZEM isn't a bad idea at all. It's not like ZEM itself is classic, and nobody knows the exact values anyway. We already dick with the exp here might as well incentivize people to check shit out.

Honestly though, lets say you jack paw to a 200 ZEM you're just going to have people plvling there instead of somewhere else. There aren't enough low to mid level players to support a lot of grouping. The game starts 55+ when we all get crammed into the same half a dozen places, or you can go solo those previously difficult encounters in mid level dungeons with ease.

In the mid 40s killing mid to high 30s blues (outdoors) I'm pulling like 6-7% a kill solo and getting a kill about every 3-4 minutes. I don't think even a good group is going to be much (if any) better.

I can't understand how its possible that you are getting 6-7% per kill solo in the mid 40s. I can't see how that can possibly be accurate.

I also strongly disagree with your assertion that "The game starts at 55+" and your assertion that there aren't many groups. You don't seem to understand that some classes MUST group, and soloing is only an option for certain classes.

[Aerar]

I think the OP doesnt really understand this server. This is Project 1999 which is trying to stay as true to Classic EQ as possible.

What you are asking is that we take a classic and change it. If you want that go play one of the other 18 expansions.

This is the equivalent of taking a 1964 Mustang and saying it should be an SUV with a spoiler and street glow, while intersting - THAT RUINS THE FREAKING POINT

[Shoran91]

I think the OP doesnt really understand this server. This is Project 1999 which is trying to stay as true to Classic EQ as possible.

What you are asking is that we take a classic and change it. If you want that go play one of the other 18 expansions.

This is the equivalent of taking a 1964 Mustang and saying it should be an SUV with a spoiler and street glow, while intersting - THAT RUINS THE FREAKING POINT

Actually it is more like taking that 1964 mustang and putting a better up to date engine under the hood. But the point stands that a lot of people came here to play an unchanged classic timeline. Which is totally fine. But it is also fun to speculate how to essentially keep it the same look/play wise while improving on the things where classic EQ did fall short.

I don't think anyone here actually expects anything discussed to be implemented, as it goes against the very reason this server exists.

[eqravenprince]

I think the OP doesnt really understand this server. This is Project 1999 which is trying to stay as true to Classic EQ as possible.

What you are asking is that we take a classic and change it. If you want that go play one of the other 18 expansions.

This is the equivalent of taking a 1964 Mustang and saying it should be an SUV with a spoiler and street glow, while intersting - THAT RUINS THE FREAKING POINT

Go read the first line of the original post again.

[webrunner5]

The beauty of EQ is to my mind is that it can be everything to everybody. You can twink the living hell out of a level 1 toon and be PLed to 60 in a week. Or you can start of with crap gear and work your way up the hard way, and take 2 years to get to level 60. And naturally anyway in between.

I know of no game I have ever played that sort of one size fits all. I think that is the reason this server has worked out like it has. Sort of a whatever blows up your skirt sort of thing. :p

[Samoht Farstrider]

Two years is generous for me. It took me like 4 years to get to 55 on live. I screw around too much instead of leveling. It's more fun to me.

[fuark]

Personally I like it how it is. Part of what makes EQ a real sandbox MMO (unlike modern mmos like people's ideas are suggesting they want) is the fact that you can literally level 1-60 in nothing but Unrest and Butcherblock if that's what you truly, honestly wanted to do.

[myxomatosii]

Personally I like it how it is. Part of what makes EQ a real sandbox MMO (unlike modern mmos like people's ideas are suggesting they want) is the fact that you can literally level 1-60 in nothing but Unrest and Butcherblock if that's what you truly, honestly wanted to do.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showthread.php?t=124918&highlight=gnolls

[fadetree]

? This thread was not originally about changing anything on this server. Was entirely hypothetical, as stated by OP.

[Dangermouse]

Dungeons are obviously so much more fun than outdoor zones but the bottom line is the way EQ was designed outdoor zones are almost always more efficient. CRs and death exp penalties all make for more risk, more challenge but it also makes people sit on zonelines and in outdoor zones.
I love classic eq but always thought the exp loss was just too much. It could easily be halved and still be a good challenge. You already have to do a naked CR, possibly dying again in the process. (i'm not asking it to be changed here, its not classic)
For pure leveling experience, OT is just better for 90% of people than say Sol B/Guk. As sad and boring as OT is, as more fun as Sol B/Guk are.

So - just throwing ideas around in the hypothetical spirit of the thread - reduce XP loss in dungeons, but not outdoor zones?

I agree with Velerin - I love exploring and xping in dungeons but it's a fact that one wipe in an awkward spot can ruin a whole evening's play. Striking a balance between challenge and fun is tricky.

[Iumuno]

We're talking about pickup groups I'm guessing.

If people choose to level in outdoor zones instead, provided that they have time to find a group, it's most likely because the rewards - either loot or xp - are not up to par.

The loot part is hard to fix because gear inflation is inevitable. The xp part, well obviously the votes by a large portion of the population is that it's not worth the additional risks, so I'd say the ZEMs are just not high enough.

Some zone ins are hostile as well, so not conducive to pick up groups.

[Dangermouse]

Well, there's reward, and risk - two seperate things.

I'm not expert on every zone, but generally I think the rewards to be gained from dungeon zones are acceptable, and generally higher than outdoor zones - although that's a very general statement and I'm sure there are exceptions.

I wouldn't want to increase rewards particularly - it seems that there is plenty of loot around on this server, masses of plat, and xp is not slow if you are determined.

What I would change, on our hypothetical server, is the risk factor of dungeons compared to outdoor zones. As has been pointed out, the risk in outdoors zones is pretty much zero if you can run to a zone line. So how to acceptably reduce risk in dungeons without trivialising the game and making a WoW style "invulnerable corpse run mode"?

- An item that will summon your corpse, but costs more than the tiny coffins needed for the necro spell.

- Lower xp loss on death in dungeons - perhaps related to the ZEM.

- Some way of getting a rez in a dungeon that doesn't involve a cleric. Although how would clerics feel about this I wonder - is it putting them out of a job, or freeing them up to do something more interesting?

Those are just ideas being chucked out for discussion. Back in the old days, Verant would baulk at allowing people to duplicate a "class defining ability" - for example no rez potions - and that's one of the things that makes classic the way we like it (I assume!)

[Andervin]

The risk v reward is already there. All the phat lewtz are in the dungeons yo.

[Aerar]

To me this is EQ classic, the risk has to be HUGE because it makes the reward oh so much sweeter.

There will be nights you tear your hair out, or leave your corpse rotting for 3 days just because you cant deal with it.

You cannot add items into the game that remove the marketability of another class.

Just making an item that summons corpse more expensive than a coffin does not mean more expensive than a necro would reasonably charge. Necro's want to make a profit just the same as a druid or wizard does for ports.

To me solving problems that already have solutions (Like PoK books instead of druid ports) or in this case summon items instead of using your local necro - RUINS the necessity to rely on other people in what is suppose to be a MMO (MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER) game.

This is my opinion and Im sure not all will agree, but you start going down this lets make this little thing easier and then that little thing, where does it stop?

There are tons of custom servers people can join, people play this because we want CLASSIC not MODIFIED

[Dangermouse]

To me solving problems that already have solutions (Like PoK books instead of druid ports) or in this case summon items instead of using your local necro - RUINS the necessity to rely on other people in what is suppose to be a MMO (MASSIVE MULTIPLAYER) game.

That's a very valid point, and I largely agree with you.

This is my opinion and Im sure not all will agree, but you start going down this lets make this little thing easier and then that little thing, where does it stop?

Remember no one is calling for changes to P99 here - we're just bullshitting about how it could be done differently. But as I said in my previous post, these are the things that make classic the way it is, and people seem to like it.

[Dangermouse]

The risk v reward is already there. All the phat lewtz are in the dungeons yo.

So what you're saying is: outdoors for xp, indoors for lewtz?

:)

[Andervin]

Remember no one is calling for changes to P99 here - we're just bullshitting about how it could be done differently. But as I said in my previous post, these are the things that make classic the way it is, and people seem to like it.

Agreed. This thread is now about how cool unicorns are.

http://cdn.themetapicture.com/media/funny-narwhal-horse-unicorn.jpg

[Iumuno]

I'd definitely not ever touch the risk part. It's a huge part of what made classic era EQ different than other games. You definitely have to alter the rewards.

The loot part, well at an appropriate progression level for the server, I feel the rewards are just fine. Inflation eventually makes the lower level dungeon less desirable, and it's hard to work around that. Trivial loot code was an attempt to fix that, but it seems the conclusion was that it sucked. I disagree, but that was the conclusion nonetheless.

So if you exclude lowering the risk, and upgrading the loot via TLC, there's just the ZEM left.