Best one sentence summation of how I feel, ever.

[Kagatob]

No, it does actually. Please, tell me again, 3 people were injured in Russia right? Wasn't like 1,500 but only 3? Correct?

Jesus fuck you're stupid. Not only did I correct my own statement before your dipshit reply, but it also doesn't detract from the fact that there were 0 fatalities.

Stop talking about science as if you have anything to do with it, the paramount qualification of being a person of science is humility. If you're never going to man up and admit you're wrong about something you're never going to learn anything.

You're worse than if a Mormon and a Jehovah's witnesses had a kid who was later raised by scientology.

[Illuzionz]

you're right, they all had to be created. i still don't see how creation implies consciousness though.

It's common sense really. Everything man made required consciousness to create. Every bee hive requires a bee to have made it. Have you ever seen anything that man has made form randomly on it's own? In order to create something it has to be designed. Only a conscious intelligence can design something. A pile of bricks will never turn into a house unless a conscious person comes along and designs and builds that house. Even in a trillion years those bricks would never just pick themselves up and turn into a house. This proves that time is irrelevant when discussing things like evolution because time cannot cause impossible things to occur.

[Illuzionz]

Jesus fuck you're stupid. Not only did I correct my own statement before your dipshit reply, but it also doesn't detract from the fact that there were 0 fatalities.

Stop talking about science as if you have anything to do with it, the paramount qualification of being a person of science is humility. If you're never going to man up and admit you're wrong about something you're never going to learn anything.

You're worse than if a Mormon and a Jehovah's witnesses had a kid who was later raised by scientology.

I haven't been wrong about anything though otherwise I'd have no problem saying I was. I only used that statement of yours to prove how much of a complete fucking retard you are by showing how you speak first and research last like a typical retard atheist.

[Kagatob]

I haven't been wrong about anything...

Point proven.

You're too easy.

[pharmakos]

It's common sense really. Everything man made required consciousness to create. Every bee hive requires a bee to have made it. Have you ever seen anything that man has made form randomly on it's own? In order to create something it has to be designed. Only a conscious intelligence can design something. A pile of bricks will never turn into a house unless a conscious person comes along and designs and builds that house. Even in a trillion years those bricks would never just pick themselves up and turn into a house. This proves that time is irrelevant when discussing things like evolution because time cannot cause impossible things to occur.

still a real big logical leap between "a human has to make a house out of the bricks" and "everything that exists was created through consciousness"

i'm trying to help you out here. you might be right, but you still have some logical leaps that need to be explained.

missing links if you will.

[Kagatob]

missing links

I lol'd

[Gaffin']

Didnt read anything in this thread

[Illuzionz]

still a real big logical leap between "a human has to make a house out of the bricks" and "everything that exists was created through consciousness"

i'm trying to help you out here. you might be right, but you still have some logical leaps that need to be explained.

missing links if you will.

No missing links at all really. It's actually common sense from this point on. If at one point something didn't exist it had to be created. Anything that has been created requires a creator. A creator can only be a conscious being because only conscious beings are capable of thinking and creating. No evidence exists to the contrary so until there is I'll stick with the facts.

[pharmakos]

who created the mudpuddle in my driveway?

[Illuzionz]

God since he created the rain and the dirt.

[pharmakos]

prove it

[Csihar]

It's common sense really. Everything man made required consciousness to create. Every bee hive requires a bee to have made it. Have you ever seen anything that man has made form randomly on it's own? In order to create something it has to be designed. Only a conscious intelligence can design something. A pile of bricks will never turn into a house unless a conscious person comes along and designs and builds that house. Even in a trillion years those bricks would never just pick themselves up and turn into a house. This proves that time is irrelevant when discussing things like evolution because time cannot cause impossible things to occur.

Paraphrased: Everything made by man requires a man to be made.

It's a rather poor version of the watchmaker analogy.

From wikipedia, David Hume's criticism:

"Hume gave the classic criticism of the design argument in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion and An Enquiry concerning Human Understanding. He argued that for the design argument to be feasible, it must be true that order and purpose are observed only when they result from design. But order is observed regularly, resulting from presumably mindless processes like snowflake or crystal generation. Design accounts for only a tiny part of our experience with order and "purpose". Furthermore, the design argument is based on an incomplete analogy: because of our experience with objects, we can recognize human-designed ones, comparing for example a pile of stones and a brick wall. But to point to a designed Universe, we would need to have an experience of a range of different universes. As we only experience one, the analogy cannot be applied. We must ask therefore if it is right to compare the world to a machine—as in Paley's watchmaker argument—when perhaps it would be better described as a giant inert animal. Even if the design argument is completely successful, it could not (in and of itself) establish a robust theism; one could easily reach the conclusion that the universe's configuration is the result of some morally ambiguous, possibly unintelligent agent or agents whose method bears only a remote similarity to human design. In this way it could be asked if the designer was God, or further still, who designed the designer? Hume also reasoned that if a well-ordered natural world requires a special designer, then God's mind (being so well ordered) also requires a special designer. And then this designer would likewise need a designer, and so on ad infinitum. We could respond by resting content with an inexplicably self-ordered divine mind but then why not rest content with an inexplicably self-ordered natural world?"

The watchmaker analogy is regurgitated ad nauseum and should be replied to with a quote, really.

[pharmakos]

p.s. they wouldn't call it "faith" if there was proof

[Csihar]

The latter part of the criticism homes in on another point:

Even if you are able to correctly deduce that the universe requires a creator, how do you go about proving that this creator is God aka Jehovah?

[Illuzionz]

prove it

I already did though. Rain and dirt didn't exist at one point. Therefor it had to be created. Therefor the creator of that dirt and rain created it. I choose to call that creator God. You're free to call him whatever you like. Regardless, someone had to create it.

[Recycled Children]

Then who created god?

[Kagatob]

Rain and dirt didn't exist at one point.

Prove this.

[Gaffin']

http://i42.tinypic.com/2qwn5s3.jpg

[Illuzionz]

Then who created god?

God is the singularity. Doesn't need a creator.

[Daldolma]

evangelical atheists are the worst

[Kagatob]

God is the singularity. Doesn't need a creator.

Prove both of those statements.

[DrKvothe]

Paraphrased: Everything made by man requires a man to be made.

It's a rather poor version of the watchmaker analogy.

From wikipedia, David Hume's criticism:

"Hume gave the classic criticism of the design argument in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion and An Enquiry concerning Human Understanding. He argued that for the design argument to be feasible, it must be true that order and purpose are observed only when they result from design. But order is observed regularly, resulting from presumably mindless processes like snowflake or crystal generation. Design accounts for only a tiny part of our experience with order and "purpose". Furthermore, the design argument is based on an incomplete analogy: because of our experience with objects, we can recognize human-designed ones, comparing for example a pile of stones and a brick wall. But to point to a designed Universe, we would need to have an experience of a range of different universes. As we only experience one, the analogy cannot be applied. We must ask therefore if it is right to compare the world to a machine—as in Paley's watchmaker argument—when perhaps it would be better described as a giant inert animal. Even if the design argument is completely successful, it could not (in and of itself) establish a robust theism; one could easily reach the conclusion that the universe's configuration is the result of some morally ambiguous, possibly unintelligent agent or agents whose method bears only a remote similarity to human design. In this way it could be asked if the designer was God, or further still, who designed the designer? Hume also reasoned that if a well-ordered natural world requires a special designer, then God's mind (being so well ordered) also requires a special designer. And then this designer would likewise need a designer, and so on ad infinitum. We could respond by resting content with an inexplicably self-ordered divine mind but then why not rest content with an inexplicably self-ordered natural world?"

The watchmaker analogy is regurgitated ad nauseum and should be replied to with a quote, really.

Beautifully reasoned argument. Snowflakes are a great example. I was leaning towards describing self-assembling materials to demonstrate that physical laws could assemble complexity from simplicity in a predictable fashion, but I was having a hard time figuring out how to dumb it down enough for Illusionz to understand with his 1st grade education.

[Illuzionz]

Prove both of those statements.

Ok np. Something had to always exist. Whatever that something is, has to be eternal thus being exempt from needing a creator itself since being eternal means always having existed and therefor is not a creation and therefor is not subject to needing a creator itself. Also, whatever that something is, it has to be alive and conscious due to the inherent design found in nature and the fact that only a conscious living thing can design and create things.

[DrKvothe]

Might as well let wikipedia do it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-assembly
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-assembly_of_nanoparticles

[Illuzionz]

Irrelevant. Self-assembly is only possible if the created thing was designed to do as such.

[DrKvothe]

I already did though. Rain and dirt didn't exist at one point. Therefor it had to be created. Therefor the creator of that dirt and rain created it. I choose to call that creator God. You're free to call him whatever you like. Regardless, someone had to create it.

Wait so God might be a flying spaghetti monster for all you know? It might require no worship, care nothing for our existence, and may have decided to just create a single cell and let things work themselves out? It might really love an alien species and created us to prepare a technologically advanced world for them to conquer and enjoy?

[DrKvothe]

Irrelevant. Self-assembly is only possible if the created thing was designed to do as such.

See, that's why I was having a hard time dumbing it down enough for you. The fact that self-organizing or assembling materials can exist is enough to disprove your assertion that they can't.

[Illuzionz]

Wait so God might be a flying spaghetti monster for all you know? It might require no worship, care nothing for our existence, and may have decided to just create a single cell and let things work themselves out? It might really love an alien species and created us to prepare a technologically advanced world for them to conquer and enjoy?

Well according to God we are made in his image so a flying spaghetti monster can easily be dismissed. We are the direct children of God himself and the pinnacle of creation. I also doubt he would have sent his son to save us if he didn't care about us.

[Illuzionz]

See, that's why I was having a hard time dumbing it down enough for you. The fact that self-organizing or assembling materials can exist is enough to disprove your assertion that they can't.

I'm the one trying to dumb it down for you actually. I already have a good understanding of these concept you're trying to show me. The fact remains is those materials didn't exist at one point and therefor had to be created. If they have self-assembling properties then that can only mean they were created to be self-assembling. Materials can't just poof into existence out of thin air. They must first be created.

[DrKvothe]

Earlier your argument was that bricks couldn't assemble themselves into a house. I give you analogous systems that do self-assemble and now your argument is equivalent to: well, who made the bricks? backpedal faster!

[Kagatob]

Ok np. Something had to always exist. Whatever that something is, has to be eternal thus being exempt from needing a creator itself since being eternal means always having existed and therefor is not a creation and therefor is not subject to needing a creator itself. Also, whatever that something is, it has to be alive and conscious due to the inherent design found in nature and the fact that only a conscious living thing can design and create things.

That's not proof at all. You are making wild assumptions with no evidence to support them and falling back on logical fallacies that you keep claiming is " common sense".

[pharmakos]

was god self-assembled?

/boggle

[Kagatob]

Well according to God we are made in his image so a flying spaghetti monster can easily be dismissed. We are the direct children of God himself and the pinnacle of creation. I also doubt he would have sent his son to save us if he didn't care about us.

With the exception of one extremely factually erronious book that claims to tell your story, there isn't a shred of evidence anywhere on the planet to even imply that any of that happened.

[Illuzionz]

Earlier your argument was that bricks couldn't assemble themselves into a house. I give you analogous systems that do self-assemble and now your argument is equivalent to: well, who made the bricks? backpedal faster!

No back pedal at all. It was an entirely different scenario I was answering with my analogy. Now you're changing the script and I am just following suit. I'd say I'm forward pedaling to keep up with your argument.

My point was that a house can't build itself, nothing can. Even the bricks themselves had to be made at some point since at one point they didn't exist. Did those self-assembling systems you mention always exist? Nope. Well therefor we can conclude that they were created as well. No back pedaling at all. Sorry.

[Kagatob]

Did those self-assembling systems you mention always exist? Nope.

How do you know this? Why do you continue to base all of your conclusions on your assumptions?

[Illuzionz]

With the exception of one extremely factually erronious book that claims to tell your story, there isn't a shred of evidence anywhere on the planet to even imply that any of that happened.

Actually there is. There is an overwhelmingly abundant evidence to support the claim of a world wide flood. Aside from that, the entire Bible is factually correct. There is not a single thing you can point out and claim it as erroneous(how do you still manage to misspell words when the program tells you that you have, just another example of how dumb and lazy you are just like how you thought 3 people were injured in Russia).

[Kagatob]

So rabbits chew their cud and pi=3?

[pharmakos]

not only are there factual errors in the bible, different books of the bible don't even agree with each other

http://www.coppit.org/god/contradictions.php

[pharmakos]

Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." (2 Samuel 24:1)

Satan rose up against Israel and incited David to take a census of Israel. (1 Chronicles 21:1)

[Illuzionz]

How do you know this? Why do you continue to base all of your conclusions on your assumptions?

Common sense. Did the Earth always exist? Nope. It was created. Did the Universe always exist? Nope. It was created. Everything within the Universe therefor also had to be created.

[pharmakos]

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he said this, he breathed his last. (Luke 23:46)

When he received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit. (John 19:30)

[DrKvothe]

And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

[Kagatob]

Common sense.

You mean logical fallacy.

[DrKvothe]

It probably wasn't the best idea to create plants on the 3rd day and wait until the 4th day to make the sun. But he created light on the first day, so problem solved?

[pharmakos]

^lol

i never realized that

[DrKvothe]

Creation theory in Genesis 1:
...And God said, “Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.” And God created great whales and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind; and God saw that it was good.And God blessed them, saying, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply on the earth.”And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.And God said, “Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind: cattle and creeping thing and beast of the earth after his kind”; and it was so.And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind; and God saw that it was good.And God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.So God created man in His own image, in the image of God created He him; male and female created He them.
...
And God saw every thing that He had made, and behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
...
Creation theory in Genesis 2:
Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made; and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He had rested from all His work which God created and made. These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens, and before every plant of the field was in the earth, and before every herb of the field grew; for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground...
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul...
And the Lord God said, “It is not good that the man should be alone[/B}; I will make him a helper meet for him.”And out of the ground the Lord God [B]formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air, and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them; and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof...
And the rib which the Lord God had taken from man, made He a woman and brought her unto the man.

God apparently forgot that he'd already created man and woman together on the 6th day, because he created man again after the seventh day then decided he was lonely so he made birds and animals which he'd already made on the 5th and 6th day. Then he decided man was lonely, because he forgot about the women he created on the 6th day, so he made a woman from a piece of the man, because apparently his god juice was running thin.

[Daldolma]

itt people that don't understand they're being trolled in a subforum of a 14-year old elf simulator attempt to understand the origins of the universe

[Sidelle]

How can so many people believe that the bible is the actual word of god when it was translated and written by men. Flawed, human, woman-hating, agenda-having, truth-hiding MEN! They wrote it, not god.

Pls explain that for me, someone.

[Lron]

Sidelle, you wanna go steady?

[Sidelle]

I have a man, but thx. :)

[Kagatob]

I a man

FTFY

[Sidelle]

FTFY
Oh. Good one.

[Kagatob]

someone had to.

[Recycled Children]

If God is a singularity than why not the universe? If everything had to be created than so does your god.

[Illuzionz]

How can so many people believe that the bible is the actual word of god when it was translated and written by men. Flawed, human, woman-hating, agenda-having, truth-hiding MEN! They wrote it, not god.

Pls explain that for me, someone.

I can easily with a single word. Pentecost.

And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other languages, as the Spirit gave them utterance. And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.

With the power of the Holy Spirit, people were instantly able to speak a language they have never spoken before. So if God can instantly make people speak a language they've never spoke before, he can also give the same power to people to translate his texts and if the Bible is indeed the word of God, he would have power to make it the way he wants. Indeed it was written by man but men empowered by God.

[Illuzionz]

If God is a singularity than why not the universe? If everything had to be created than so does your god.

Because the Universe sprang into being billions of years ago. It didn't exist at one point therefor it had to be created. The design inherent in the Universe can only mean a conscious being designed and created it. The singularity has to be eternal and therefor exempt from creation, having always existed. If God requires a creator than you create a logical infinite paradox where that God before it would need a creator as well ad infinite. Ultimately you have to come to a single thing which itself was not created otherwise nothing could ever exist.

[Kagatob]

There is absolutely no evidence that such a thing ever happened.
Once again the button of proof rests on you. Once again you will retort with intangible evidence.

[Sidelle]

Is that what it means to be Pentacostal? Believing in all that speaking in tongues stuff? That's how the bible was translated and transcribed? Oh man...

No disrespect intended but I've known some Pentacostals in my life and they are some of the most judgmental motherfuckers I've ever met. And it's just weird how they fall into a trance and start the speaking in tongues stuff, but of course the regular person can't understand them.

When I lived in South Florida for one year in high school, I had a best friend who I loved a lot. We were close. I moved back to Washington State after sophomore year but we kept in touch for years after. One day I tell him over the phone I am interested in some of the old pagan beliefs and have been researching some things related to that. I like to read about a variety of subjects but this one definitely threatened him, apparently.

He promptly made some comment about how he couldn't be friends with someone interested in witchcraft and he never spoke to me again. WE WERE BEST FRIENDS FOR 7 YEARS, WTF!!

[Illuzionz]

It probably wasn't the best idea to create plants on the 3rd day and wait until the 4th day to make the sun. But he created light on the first day, so problem solved?

It's two separate creations. The first men he created were what we know now as neanderthals and other primitive humans. Adam and Eve were the first humans with the bodies we now have. No inconsistencies, only misinterpretations.

Is that what it means to be Pentacostal? Believing in all that speaking in tongues stuff? That's how the bible was translated and transcribed? Oh man...

No disrespect intended but I've known some Pentacostals in my life and they are some of the most judgmental motherfuckers I've ever met. And it's just weird how they fall into a trance and start the speaking in tongues stuff, but of course the regular person can't understand them.

Well there's probably a pretty big difference between someone who actually experiences Pentecost and someone pretending to. Generally if you're imbued with the Holy Spirit then odds are you're not going to be a judgmental mother fucker as you so put it.

[Sidelle]

It's two separate creations. The first men he created were what we know now as neanderthals and other primitive humans. Adam and Eve were the first humans with the bodies we now have. No inconsistencies, only misinterpretations.



Well there's probably a pretty big difference between someone who actually experiences Pentecost and someone pretending to. Generally if you're imbued with the Holy Spirit then odds are you're not going to be a judgmental mother fucker as you so put it.

Speaking of Adam and Eve.. I just did a google search because I wanted to know more about Cain & Abel because I was wondering who the hell they could have possibly married....
Google says they married their sisters.... wtf...

[Gaffin']

the fact you guys and ladies made this hbb thread go 30 pages makes me fucking sick. hope you all die with your religious evolution BULLSHIT

[Sidelle]

^Lol. Yeah, didn't wanna add to it but got curious about some shitz.

[Illuzionz]

Well Cain killed Abel and then was cast out of garden and sent into the land of Nod where he met his wife. Where it really gets interesting is in Chapter 6 when the angels begin to take mortal woman as wives and impregnating them and creating the race of the Nephilim whom are the characters found in all ancient "mythology" i/e all of the Pagan/Greek/Egyptian/Mayan gods etc.

[Sidelle]

I believe there are many paths to God. How can one way be the ONLY way for everyone on the planet? Would love to know your thoughts on that.

[pharmakos]

Where it really gets interesting is in Chapter 6 when the angels begin to take mortal woman as wives and impregnating them and creating the race of the Nephilim whom are the characters found in all ancient "mythology" i/e all of the Pagan/Greek/Egyptian/Mayan gods etc.

becausealiens.jpg imho

[runlvlzero]

I'm pretty sure humans are martian. And we once had a solarsystem wide civilization.

[Sidelle]

I wouldn't be surprised if we were an alien science project, as I have said before.

[pharmakos]

you know one thing that evolution has never been able to explain?

the origin of the separation of gender

sexual reproduction is some mind boggling shit

[Illuzionz]

Well the Bible makes clear that Jesus is the one true way to God. However this does not mean one has to directly worship him. So long as you do his work and follow his command you will be accepted into heaven regardless of whether you ever knew who Jesus was as of course many have not.

“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

Jesus the Way to the Father

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you.

[Champion_Standing]

sexual reproduction is some mind boggling shit

i lol'd

[Illuzionz]

I wouldn't be surprised if we were an alien science project, as I have said before.

Well in a way we are but so much more. There are no aliens really, only angels and demons. They are what we know as "aliens" but the reality is that they not only created us but Earth as well and have been here long before us.

The involvement of highly advanced beings in our past is undeniable. There are structures that exist which we could not reproduce with the best technology available and there are many objects made of materials that we could not work with today. Even the process of mummification is far beyond our understanding and capabilities. Not to mention that it used ingredients found no where near Egypt and are only available in parts of the world that were according to historians, inaccessible to the people of those days. Not if they had help however.

[Sidelle]

Well the Bible makes clear that Jesus is the one true way to God. However this does not mean one has to directly worship him. So long as you do his work and follow his command you will be accepted into heaven regardless of whether you ever knew who Jesus was as of course many have not.

I think Jesus would love me, even if I have some pagan ways. I appreciate your post. I definitely believe we go somewhere else after this life on earth, and that our main goal is to help others if we can. I just have a hard time connecting with the whole bible thing. I am half Native American and believe more in the old ways. It's kind of funny because most of my family on that side is Catholic now. That's what they were taught in the mission schools.. Lol..

[DrKvothe]

Speaking of Adam and Eve.. I just did a google search because I wanted to know more about Cain & Abel because I was wondering who the hell they could have possibly married....
Google says they married their sisters.... wtf...

Populations go through bottlenecks in nature under a lot of different circumstances. When the species in question reproduces sexually, inbreeding is necessary when this happens. The story is utter bullshit, but what it describes isn't surprising considering how biblical figures treat women in their families:

"Behold now, I have two daughters that have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing, forasmuch as they are come under the shadow of my roof."

[pharmakos]

there's a story in the bible about a girl getting her dad drunk and fucking him

[Vadd]

You're such a revolutionary. lol

[Illuzionz]

Populations go through bottlenecks in nature under a lot of different circumstances. When the species in question reproduces sexually, inbreeding is necessary when this happens. The story is utter bullshit, but what it describes isn't surprising considering how biblical figures treat women in their families:

"Behold now, I have two daughters that have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing, forasmuch as they are come under the shadow of my roof."

It's cool how you take quotes out of context. He wasn't actually going to give his daughters to the men and nor did he. He was trying to protect the angels that were sent to him by God whom came and struck all of the aggressors with blindness.

there's a story in the bible about a girl getting her dad drunk and fucking him

Only because they thought everyone in the world was just killed when the angels dropped a nuke on Sodom and Gomorrah. Interestingly enough, Sodom and Gomorrah was where the Dead Sea is now and there is evidence that a nuclear device was used there many thousands of years ago. I actually believe that modern events and technology help shed light on many of the events that occurred in the Bible. Nagasaki and Hiroshima is a perfect example. Two cities just like Sodom and Gomorrah, all wiped out in a single strike.

[pharmakos]

^ that was the 333rd reply to this thread

you're half way to hell, bud

[Illuzionz]

^ that was the 333rd reply to this thread

you're half way to hell, bud

We're already here actually.

[Kagatob]

Nagasaki and Hiroshima is a perfect example. Two cities just like Sodom and Gomorrah, all wiped out in a single strike.

:rolleyes:

[pharmakos]

We're already here actually.

you believe in god, yet you think this is hell?

interesting

[Recycled Children]

It's pretty cool how far down the dickhole of god you are, Illuzionz. Listening to your religious psychobabble is truly entertaining.

[Recycled Children]

Illuzionz is trolling. I called this a few pages back but the nukes on Japan and Sodom and Gomorrah correlation sealed the deal. A girl did this same troll on YouTube years ago when Japan got hit with the tsunami. This troll isn't even original.

[Illuzionz]

How is it trolling? Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with a single blow just like Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Not to mention evidence of nuclear devices being used in the area that Sodom and Gomorrah were in. Is it a coincidence that they were where the Dead Sea is now?

I have no clue what the Tsunami hitting Japan and some girl talking about it has anything to do with anything.

you believe in god, yet you think this is hell?

interesting

Hell is Satan's domain and Satan is the ruler of this planet. Hell is underneath the surface of the Earth so technically we're already there.

[Recycled Children]

Yikes.

[r00t]

I agree with everything Illuzionz has said. PREACH

[pharmakos]

Hell is underneath the surface of the Earth so technically we're already there.

lol

in 8th grade i touched Jenny Rodriguez's crotch through her pants. so technically i fucked her, eh?

[Illuzionz]

No but you're sure as hell pretty close.

Anyways I'm not really sure why so many are against God and the Bible considering everything you like is based off the Bible. You like Lord of the Rings? Thank the Bible. You like Star Wars? Thank the Bible. You like anything based on mythology? Thank your Bible. Just about everything in EQ is taken from Biblical texts. You like dragons? Guess where they're from? Oh right, the Bible. Magic, sorcery, armor, swords? Yep, still the Bible.

So you despise the Bible and literally just about everything we all enjoy is based off of it. Ironic I suppose.

[Kagatob]

No but you're sure as hell pretty close.

Anyways I'm not really sure why so many are against God and the Bible considering everything I like is based off the Bible. You like slavery? Thank the Bible. You like oppression? Thank the Bible. You like anything based on the accumulation of wealth? Thank your Bible. Just about everything in Nazism is taken from Biblical texts. You like Rape? Guess where it's from? Oh right, the Bible. Racism, hate, genocide, complete apathy towards basic human rights? Yep, still the Bible.

So you despise the Bible and literally just about everything I enjoy is based off of it. Ironic I don't know the definition of.

FTFY :cool:

[Illuzionz]

You're a complete moron honestly. The Bible doesn't approve of those things, they are merely the stories of the events during the time. The whole point is overcoming the evil sinful nature within mankind and choosing to fight evil and do good. It is a story about good versus evil. It is in fact the ultimate story of good versus evil. So obviously since it's about good versus evil, there is going to be a lot of evil in it.

“A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

Yep, sure sounds like a book that endorses rape and murder.

[pharmakos]

most of the mythological stuff in the bible was borrowed from earlier middle eastern sources though =p

[Illuzionz]

No, the texts that the Bible are based on are the oldest known writings in recorded history. They date back to Sumeria and even earlier.

[Quientus]

No, the texts that the Bible are based on are the oldest known writings in recorded history. They date back to Sumeria and even earlier.

Wrong ... Most text in "Your" bible were written centuries AFTER AD ..., the texts dating back before Sumeria, the texts you are referring to was never included in "Your" bible, those same texts actually CONTRADICTS alot of what is written, in "Your" bible ..., that same "bible" which coincidently (sp?) is a mere populistic product ... Constantin was a pagan until he on his deathbed converted to Christianity ...

[theaetatus]

Tolkien's mythology is based on the old Norse and old English stories (particularly Beowolf).
Dragons are originally from Chinese mythology.
There are many other sources for mythology than the Bible...

[Illuzionz]

The stories told in the Bible are much older than the Bible itself. The Bible is merely a collection of a multitude of different books throughout ancient history all of which date back to the earliest known civilizations on Earth.

[DrKvothe]

I fully support all comparisons between the bible and other forms of fantasy and folklore.

[Abner]

I agree with everything Illuzionz has said. PREACH

I don't agree with absolutely everything he has said but Illuzionz has calmly and methodically (and with incredible patience) owned this thread. And his opponents are blind to it. The whole thing is interesting to watch.

Funny how the topics branch and derail too. And Darwinian Evolution is still a bogus religion dressed up as actual science.

[radditsu]

meteor strike ya'll

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/31/kofels_asteroid/

[DrKvothe]

Religious institutions erode their congregations' abilities to think critically (case in point, Illusionz and Abner), feed them a bunch of lies and demand belief under threat of eternal hellfire, but then are not held responsible for the inevitable problems that arise when your perspective of the world is based on fiction.

Religious institutions should be financially liable for the real-world consequences of their fairy tales. Preaching that birth control and condoms are bad to 17% of the world's population, many in areas where HIV is prevalent, without any regard for the accuracy of the statement or the real-world consequences they would cause is defamation against those that sell such things and criminal negligence toward their congregations.

When a drug company sells a product with unforeseen side-affects, they're liable for the consequences, despite having spent ~$1 billion to carefully study each marketed drug according to government regulations.

[pharmakos]

most of the mythological stuff in the bible was borrowed from earlier middle eastern sources though =p

No, the texts that the Bible are based on are the oldest known writings in recorded history. They date back to Sumeria and even earlier.

other than the word "no," your post is in full agreement with mine.

[Daldolma]

Religious institutions erode their congregations' abilities to think critically (case in point, Illusionz and Abner), feed them a bunch of lies and demand belief under threat of eternal hellfire, but then are not held responsible for the inevitable problems that arise when your perspective of the world is based on fiction.

Religious institutions should be financially liable for the real-world consequences of their fairy tales. Preaching that birth control and condoms are bad to 17% of the world's population, many in areas where HIV is prevalent, without any regard for the accuracy of the statement or the real-world consequences they would cause is defamation against those that sell such things and criminal negligence toward their congregations.

When a drug company sells a product with unforeseen side-affects, they're liable for the consequences, despite having spent ~$1 billion to carefully study each marketed drug according to government regulations.

"side effects" with an a?

we need a new representative for science

[DrKvothe]

Geez, tough crowd.

[radditsu]

Which is why Judaism is a total ripoff of Zoroastrianism.

I believe in the church of kal-el

[radditsu]

The Great Rao may object to that.

Meet in the middle and say the Cult of Conner?

[Abner]

Religious institutions erode their congregations' abilities to think critically (case in point, Illusionz and Abner), feed them a bunch of lies and demand belief under threat of eternal hellfire, but then are not held responsible for the inevitable problems that arise when your perspective of the world is based on fiction.

Religious institutions should be financially liable for the real-world consequences of their fairy tales. Preaching that birth control and condoms are bad to 17% of the world's population, many in areas where HIV is prevalent, without any regard for the accuracy of the statement or the real-world consequences they would cause is defamation against those that sell such things and criminal negligence toward their congregations.

When a drug company sells a product with unforeseen side-affects, they're liable for the consequences, despite having spent ~$1 billion to carefully study each marketed drug according to government regulations.

Golly now I believe in the Darwinian Evolution religion! You sure set me straight there thanks! /sarcasm off

[Illuzionz]

I fully support all comparisons between the bible and other forms of fantasy and folklore.

Just point out on the doll where the priest touched you. It's ok, you don't have to be afraid anymore.

[Kagatob]

The stories told in the Bible are much older than the Bible itself. The Bible is merely a collection of a multitude of different books throughout ancient history all of which date back to the earliest known civilizations on Earth.

This pretty much. None of the stories in the bible are christian in origin, they are all borrowed from religions that existed long before it. A good third of the book simply rehashes the story of Gilgamesh changing where it happened and who it happened to. Sorry Noah, Gil beat you to the great deluge.

[Lune]

Golly now I believe in the Darwinian Evolution religion! You sure set me straight there thanks! /sarcasm off

The modern understanding of evolution isn't 'Darwinian', retard

[DrKvothe]

Just point out on the doll where the priest touched you. It's ok, you don't have to be afraid anymore.

Every time a priest rapes a child, an angel gets its wings.

[Hailto]

2013, still believing a man walked on water and rose from the dead. How do you take yourselves seriously?

[Champion_Standing]

How do you take yourselves seriously?

People that take themselves seriously make me laugh

[DrKvothe]

Eat flesh and drink blood in the name of your Lord who hath risen to life after 3 days buried! So says the great zombie lord.

[Hailto]

People that take themselves seriously make me laugh

Things man-children say.

[pharmakos]

what is "truth'?

[Champion_Standing]

Things man-children say.

i lol'd

[Illuzionz]

This pretty much. None of the stories in the bible are christian in origin, they are all borrowed from religions that existed long before it. A good third of the book simply rehashes the story of Gilgamesh changing where it happened and who it happened to. Sorry Noah, Gil beat you to the great deluge.

Lol you think Gil beat him to it? Are you honestly mentally retarded? It happened at the same time to both of them. Same story, different perspective.

[Illuzionz]

Eat flesh and drink blood in the name of your Lord who hath risen to life after 3 days buried! So says the great zombie lord.

It doesn't mean literally but you're so smart, I'm sure you were able to figure that out. Your reading comprehension is embarrassing really.

[Illuzionz]

2013, still believing a man walked on water and rose from the dead. How do you take yourselves seriously?

Because so many people saw it occur that it's impossible to ignore. Hence why so many have sacrificed their lives in order to get the word of Jesus out. The Bible is the most widely published and widely translated book that literally divine intervention is the only possible explanation for how.

[pharmakos]

jesus probably just had boat shoes

[DrKvothe]

Because so many people saw it occur that it's impossible to ignore. Hence why so many have sacrificed their lives in order to get the word of Jesus out. The Bible is the most widely published and widely translated book that literally divine intervention is the only possible explanation for how.

Only Jesus's disciples were claimed to have seen it. Learn your own shit.

[DrKvothe]

The Bible is the most widely published and widely translated book that literally divine intervention is the only possible explanation for how.

Harry Potter was pretty popular too.

OMG.

...

I'm so fucking applying to Hogwarts.

[radditsu]

Harry Potter was pretty popular too.

OMG.

...

I'm so fucking applying to Hogwarts.

300 years from now the bible will have 7 gospels, one of them split into two.

[Abner]

The modern understanding of evolution isn't 'Darwinian', retard

Oh please do enlighten me, genius. /chuckle

[Illuzionz]

Only Jesus's disciples were claimed to have seen it. Learn your own shit.

Well I wasn't just referring to that one specific miracle but countless people witnessed his multitude of his miracles. Also, it wasn't only his disciples that saw him risen from the dead. The first person he appeared to was Mary Magdalene so you're already wrong. Finally he appeared to Saul whom was a fierce opponent of Jesus until Jesus gave him a vision and went on to become Paul the Apostle.

Learn my own shit you say? Pathetic really.

[Mandalore93]

TMO could learn something about spinning from religion.

[pharmakos]

You, on the other hand, were seen sucking cock for crack. Someone wrote it down somewhere, 6 months after it happened. So it must be true.

i can confirm this





hey look, we just created history

[Quientus]

Well I wasn't just referring to that one specific miracle but countless people witnessed his multitude of his miracles. Also, it wasn't only his disciples that saw him risen from the dead. The first person he appeared to was Mary Magdalene so you're already wrong. Finally he appeared to Saul whom was a fierce opponent of Jesus until Jesus gave him a vision and went on to become Paul the Apostle.

Learn my own shit you say? Pathetic really.

"Multitude"? - You do realize most of Jesus socalled "miracles" were stories altered and ADDED later ... In some of those ancient sumeric texts you referred to, not to mention passages in the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Qumran Scrolls, Jesus wasn't being considered divine, but merely an extraordinary person ...

I think there is a probable possibility that Jesus may well have lived, however, he was hardy divine nor "The son of god" ..., and certainly didn't rise after being killed ... /boggle

[Illuzionz]

No one saw it happen. There's no evidence Jesus even existed. What we have is the post 60 year account of Josephus, a fucking Roman.

You, on the other hand, were seen sucking cock for crack. Someone wrote it down somewhere, 6 months after it happened. So it must be true.

Lol no evidence that the most influential human being to ever walk planet Earth even existed? You've done gone full fucking retard sir. Time to kill yourself.

[Daldolma]

No one saw it happen. There's no evidence Jesus even existed. What we have is the post 60 year account of Josephus, a fucking Roman.

You, on the other hand, were seen sucking cock for crack. Someone wrote it down somewhere, 6 months after it happened. So it must be true.

kind of like saying there's no evidence socrates existed

WHERE'S THE PROOF BROS

[Illuzionz]

"Multitude"? - You do realize most of Jesus socalled "miracles" were stories altered and ADDED later ... In some of those ancient sumeric texts you referred to, not to mention passages in the Dead Sea Scrolls or the Qumran Scrolls, Jesus wasn't being considered divine, but merely an extraordinary person ...

I think there is a probable possibility that Jesus may well have lived, however, he was hardy divine nor "The son of god" ..., and certainly didn't rise after being killed ... /boggle

Not only did he raise from the grave but he also raised Lazarus from death as well and many people saw it. He is the only one to fulfill every prophecy of the coming Messiah.

[Champion_Standing]

No one saw it happen. There's no evidence Jesus even existed. What we have is the post 60 year account of Josephus, a fucking Roman.


The role of the angry internet atheist suits you.

The role of historical commentator, does not. Read a book once in a while, the majority of historians agree that Jesus existed. I'm not talking about religion here, just history...something you should brush up on. Fucking wikipedia can teach you this shit.

[pharmakos]

http://tonymcgurkdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/10or15commandments.jpg

[Champion_Standing]

No, "most" historians do no such thing. All we have is the "books" written by his "apostles" almost a hundred years after his supposed death, and one real historic document that mentions the name "Jesus." Do you really believe the apostles actually "wrote" those books? Because if you do, you're an idiot. His apostles were illiterate peasants who were being subjugated by the Romans. They were desperate for anyone to tell them that everything is going to perfect in the next life because their present one really, really sucked.

The one, and only, real historic account of anyone named Jesus was by Josephus. And it's like one sentence. It's also complicated by the fact the name Jesus, the Greek translastion of Yeshua (Joshua) was as common as the name John is today. Josephus references 20 different Jesus' who were alive at that period. A time period that was 100 years before Josephus wrote about.

Since you think Wikipedia is a credible source of information, try this article. Or is that one bullshit?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus

Most historians do agree that Jesus existed, that is just a fact.

[Hasbinbad]

Most historians do agree that Jesus existed, that is just a fact.
this dude gets his scripture from the history channel y'all

[Champion_Standing]

No, it isn't. Whatever you need to tell yourself to not be afraid. It's OK, lots of people are pussies.

I'm not a Christian you dipshit, rofl.

Jesus existed, you are fucking wrong.

[Illuzionz]

I don't even know why they still call it Christianity. It's obvious to anyone with a brain that Paul made the shit up, just like "Moses" made Judaism up from bits and pieces of Zoroastrianism.

Lol you are mind boggling levels of retarded.

[Hasbinbad]

dude .. you want me to believe some record about some dude from 2,000 years ago as being representative of fact, especially when said document was probably forged and sold as curios in galilee for whatever a shekel was then, thousands of times over? Are you kidding me? I don't believe plato was a real person, much less socrates. jesus can get fucked.

none of that matters .. the stories we know about these "people" is all that really matters. even if they are true, they are wildly lionized etc. etc. to the point where you're not even looking at the truth anymore anyway, so.. all that matters is the fable.

[Illuzionz]

No, it isn't. Whatever you need to tell yourself to not be afraid. It's OK, lots of people are pussies.

It's actually you who's afraid. Jesus brings peace, not fear. It's you that's afraid of death because you are afraid of being judged because you already know how worthless you are and where your judgment will land you. Luckily for you there's still time and you can still save yourself but I'll say the odds are definitely against you.

[radditsu]

Guys guys guys.



Did you know jesus was a jew?

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A6vnsrmmUZ4

[pharmakos]

http://i.imgur.com/xiaLq.jpg

[Champion_Standing]

dude .. you want me to believe some record about some dude from 2,000 years ago as being representative of fact, especially when said document was probably forged and sold as curios in galilee for whatever a shekel was then, thousands of times over? Are you kidding me? I don't believe plato was a real person, much less socrates. jesus can get fucked.

none of that matters .. the stories we know about these "people" is all that really matters. even if they are true, they are wildly lionized etc. etc. to the point where you're not even looking at the truth anymore anyway, so.. all that matters is the fable.

We don't have concrete evidence of a whole shitload of people that have existed. You can either accept the methods that we have of verifying their identities or not. But at least you don't accept it across the board...or it seems that way.

Me...i'll take the word of people who actually study history. If the general consensus among the historians changes, I'm fine with that.

[Illuzionz]

Getting the attention you want? Feel special? Getting your narcissistic supply, you special little snowflake?

Clocks ticking kiddo. Not much time left really.

[Hailto]

this dude gets his scripture from the history channel y'all

Lold

[Illuzionz]

Am I supposed to be afraid? We all die. Life's a terminal condition. Nobody gets out alive. There difference is I'm not afraid of what happens after, like you. Now, get on your knees, and beg like a good little sheep.

You should be afraid of what happens after death and believe me you're going to be. You can ignore reality as much as you like but unfortunately for you that doesn't actually change reality. You're just the same as everyone. You're desperate to learn the hard way it seems and believe me you will, whether you like it or not. I mean you're actually trying to argue that the single most influential and well known person to ever walk the Earth didn't even exist. You're so far gone it's literally a joke. I couldn't possibly feel more sorry for you.

[pharmakos]

you don't seem like you feel sorry for him

[Daldolma]

will pray for bodeanicus, no telling what horrors await him

[DrKvothe]

The world we live in is nothing but the deception of the Matrix. Have you ever had a dream that you were so sure was real? What if you were unable to wake from that dream? How would you know the difference between the dream world and the real world?

The Laws of the Matrix must be true because of historical facts. From Plato's allegory of the cave to Descarte's questioning everything but his own existence to the continuous search of our species for supernatural answers, it is clear that the physical world around us feels like a lie. The only explanation for the consistency between these views is The Matrix. All hail Keanu Reeves, our Lord and Savior. He is the one true One.

[Hasbinbad]

We don't have concrete evidence of a whole shitload of people that have existed. You can either accept the methods that we have of verifying their identities or not. But at least you don't accept it across the board...or it seems that way.

Me...i'll take the word of people who actually study history. If the general consensus among the historians changes, I'm fine with that.
i hold things like "second hand eyewitness testimony recorded 'between 1500 and 1950 years ago'" with a grain of salt bro

[Hasbinbad]

i don't care how many historians agree something is true, if there is no harder evidence of a thing, i do not hold it as granted .. pretty much everything in history is an inconclusive fog as far as I am concerned, except that we can say definitively that given technologies are known earliest at given points in history, and have many supporting stories that seem to tell a tale. when there is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence for something, such as the being of a roman emperor of whom many statues were sculpted, paintings painted, records, bills, invoices, etc. etc., and they are all the same, and can all be dated to a certain very strict timeframe, then i think there is a good reason to believe that such a person existed...but as far as i know, the major portion of 'evidence' for the existance of "jesus the lamb of god" is roman birth record and crucifixion record of some dude named yehoshua... which is like 40 years off the bible timeline.

yeah ok.

[Hasbinbad]

i wonder how many yehoshuas were crucified between galilee and golgatha bros

[pharmakos]

Just dead, black nothingness without consciousness. Sounds perfect.

i know. i'm just bored.

[Ahldagor]

http://tonymcgurkdotcom.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/10or15commandments.jpg

history of the world part I

How is it trolling? Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed with a single blow just like Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Not to mention evidence of nuclear devices being used in the area that Sodom and Gomorrah were in. Is it a coincidence that they were where the Dead Sea is now?

I have no clue what the Tsunami hitting Japan and some girl talking about it has anything to do with anything.

Hell is Satan's domain and Satan is the ruler of this planet. Hell is underneath the surface of the Earth so technically we're already there.

keep your troll consistent. you started to eat yourself with this. btw it was lucifer that was sent to hell. satan is the angel that was sanctioned by god in the book of job to test job's faith by ruining his life because satan and god made a bet.

[pharmakos]

history of the world part I

yeah thats what i wanted to post, but i couldn't find a good .gif of it

[Wutang]

I think its funny all the people passively raging at you because you are free, and they are not. The truth is most of the population is under a mass hypnosis. People come home from work, plop on their couch, and believe EVERY GOD DAMN THING that is thrown at them, without giving it a single thought. This HOT GIRL on T.V. gives the sluttiest 'omg I'm going to blow your cock for days' look to the guy driving the tundra, and strutting around. OMG I NEED TO STRUT AROUND, AND DRIVE A TRUCK, BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT GETS YOU LAID. People have been lead to believe that their abundance lies in bringing EVERYONE they deem even slightly better then them, or above them in ANY WAY below them. I have seen the utmost desperation from so many fucking people, all because they sensed that I was better then them at something. It's like when you do something fucking badass, and some douchebag comes up to you like "Yea bro.... I just what you just did except like 4 times more extreme." It's like cool man, heres a cookie, you win. That's almost what you want. You can fucking sense it when your driving, and you drive a little bit faster than someone else. You can fucking sense it, as they desperately try to weave in and out of cars to get ahead of you, it's fucking hallarious. People have let themselves become beyond fake, and become the sole purpotrator, of not only their shitty life, but shitty lifes as a whole. It's a fucking vicious cycle that nearly everyone blindly plays into, fully supports, and will defend tooth in nail, just so they get the feeling that WELL NO ONE WILL CALL ME LAME. WHO GIVES A FUCK. people would rather listen to others then themselves. It's a big fucking mess, but awakening has begun, and the more people awake the more people will awake.

Humanity on a grand scale has been lied to on just about every level. Once people wake up and realise the truth it will be a beautiful day. Do your fucking research, wake the fuck up, and most importantly, DONT LISTEN TO WHAT THE MEDIA, SOCIETY, TV, RELIGION SAYS... LISTEN TO WHAT THE FUCK YOU SAY... this is the biggest problem.

and remember beliefs do not come from events, events come from beliefs.

Wake Up Humanity.

for those about to rage at me get fucked I aint coming back here to read what you have to say much less do I care what you have to say lol. But for those who get what I am saying, all I can say is keep on doing what you do, do it more, and dont ever let anyone get you down, because they are most likely doing it because they are jealous of what you do, and feel shitty about themselves. They dont got what you got, and they want to drag you down because of it.

[Wutang]

oh yea on another note, we are awakening, it is inevitable, the truth is there, and it will be revealed to all of humanity in one way or another and SOON. It's going to be amazing when everyone realise wow, I really was a fucking idiot openly doubting everyone, trying to bring them down, I really did lose sight of myself.

Also for whoever said parenting is hard, Is it hard to be yourself? Which is how you should parent. Everyone is like OMGOMG IM GONNA SCHEDULE MY KID FOR GYMNASTICS, PRE PRE SCHOOL, PIANO LESSONS, ROCKET FUEL ANALYSIS. As the great George Carlin once said, what happened to being a kid and playing with a Fucking Stick. Just a Fucking Stick. Going outside and being a kid. Fuck man I could go on for days about this shit there is so much fucked up shit with our current situation, but the change is coming and its utterly amazing.

Have fun

[Champion_Standing]

change is coming and its utterly amazing.

Velious?

[FoxxHound]

Velious?

T99 Velious even.

[pharmakos]

the internet was supposed to bring about the Information Age, but i fear that its just made us stupider and even more naive :(

[Kagatob]

Lol you think Gil beat him to it? Are you honestly mentally retarded? It happened at the same time to both of them. Same story, different perspective.

Not in any way, shape, or form. This is the kind of crap that makes it so obvious that you are simply an uninformed troll.

[DrKvothe]

the internet was supposed to bring about the Information Age, but i fear that its just made us stupider and even more naive :(

Hard to say for the average. It's creating an enormous intelligence inequality in the civilized world, though. A curious mind has more information to grow strong on, while a weak mind has Illusionz's posts to keep it occupied.

And let's not forget that knowledge is God's ultimate enemy. In Genesis 3:3 we learn that God is willing to lie to keep man away from knowledge: "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." But in Genesis 3:6 Eve did eat the fruit of that tree and did not die, but instead became self-aware, the ultimate crime of religion.

[pharmakos]

the signal to noise ratio is all fucked up these days




anyone into Christian Gnosticism at all? supposedly the divine entity that created our world, the Demiurge, created a flawed world due to not consulting its divine counter part before construction...

[Illuzionz]

the internet was supposed to bring about the Information Age, but i fear that its just made us stupider and even more naive :(

Smartest thing you've said.

Not in any way, shape, or form. This is the kind of crap that makes it so obvious that you are simply an uninformed troll.

Wrong. Go the fuck back to school since you're the one that's the troll I absolutely assure you.

[Illuzionz]

Hard to say for the average. It's creating an enormous intelligence inequality in the civilized world, though. A curious mind has more information to grow strong on, while a weak mind has Illusionz's posts to keep it occupied.

And let's not forget that knowledge is God's ultimate enemy. In Genesis 3:3 we learn that God is willing to lie to keep man away from knowledge: "But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." But in Genesis 3:6 Eve did eat the fruit of that tree and did not die, but instead became self-aware, the ultimate crime of religion.

I know you've got the whole down syndrome thing going on but Eve eating the fruit of the tree is what brought death into the world, that's why they were not suppose to eat it(btw it wasn't an actual tree and it wasn't actual fruit but I'm sure you knew that).

Knowledge is Satan's enemy because he is the one lying to you. He is the father of lies and he has the entire world under a trance. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was getting the world to believe that he doesn't exist. Unfortunately for you, you've actually fallen for it because you are delusional and easily manipulated and lied to. This is why you are going to learn the hard way how much of an ignorant waste of life you've become. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[DrKvothe]

I know you've got the whole down syndrome thing going on but Eve eating the fruit of the tree is what brought death into the world, that's why they were not suppose to eat it(btw it wasn't an actual tree and it wasn't actual fruit but I'm sure you knew that).

Knowledge is Satan's enemy because he is the one lying to you. He is the father of lies and he has the entire world under a trance. The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was getting the world to believe that he doesn't exist. Unfortunately for you, you've actually fallen for it because you are delusional and easily manipulated and lied to. This is why you are going to learn the hard way how much of an ignorant waste of life you've become. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

FACT. All of it.

But if you keep being mean to people with Down Syndrome, Santa or God or whatever is gonna put you on the naughty list.

[Gaffin']

SHUT THE FUCK UP

[Abner]

Every time Illuzionz ownz someone he is suddenly labeled a troll, ignorant or both. Interesting.

[Ahldagor]

the internet brought about the information age, but people don't know what to do with the abundance of information around them. there's still a good amount of people who don't have teh interwebs too.

it was lucifer and not satan that tempted eve, read your bible you illiterate scum

[pharmakos]

ultimately, i believe that the only rational religious viewpoint is Agnosticism

[chtulu]

Does this look infected to you?

[Illuzionz]

the internet brought about the information age, but people don't know what to do with the abundance of information around them. there's still a good amount of people who don't have teh interwebs too.

it was lucifer and not satan that tempted eve, read your bible you illiterate scum

Lucifer IS Satan. Lucifer was the name of Satan before he fell from Heaven.

ultimately, i believe that the only rational religious viewpoint is Agnosticism

Only to an ignorant person who is incapable of discerning the truth. The truth exists and it can be known so taking the stance of "guess we'll never know!" is about as retarded as being an atheist.

[pharmakos]

Does this look infected to you?

have you ever seen those bumperstickers.... "Cthulu for President -- Why vote for a lesser evil?"

Only to an ignorant person who is incapable of discerning the truth. The truth exists and it can be known so taking the stance of "guess we'll never know!" is about as retarded as being an atheist.

what is "truth"?

[Kagatob]

Every time Illuzionz ownz someone he is suddenly labeled a troll, ignorant or both. Interesting.

When Lron 'ownz' someone, please let me know. He's simply repeating rhetoric that has all been debunked years ago.

[Quientus]

Lucifer IS Satan. Lucifer was the name of Satan before he fell from Heaven.



Only to an ignorant person who is incapable of discerning the truth. The truth exists and it can be known so taking the stance of "guess we'll never know!" is about as retarded as being an atheist.

For someone who refers to the bible alot, you seemingly haven't read it thoroughly, or you just don't remember well ...;

NO where in the old testament does it say that Lucifer and Satan are the same ... Satan ia believed to be a fallen ANGEL, whereas Lucifer is alluded to be the "Antichrist", referencing the King of Babylon, however the name Lucifer is derived from Latin meaning "Lightbearer" and the name of the King of Babylon, Helal, in Hebrew means "Son of Light/Dawn" ...

So to summize using the old testament (bible) which you are so fond of referring to, even depicts Satan and Lucifer as different beings, one being immortal the other mortal ...

[Csihar]

You're either a theist or an atheist. You can be agnostic in addition to one of those.

Atheist/theist has to do with what you believe in. If you reply 'yes' to the question "do you believe in a god or gods?" then you're a theist, any other reply (including "I don't know") makes you an atheist.

Agnosticism has to do with knowledge. If you say, for example, that you (proverbial or literal you) can't know whether or not God exist then you're agnostic.

Some theists have faith that God exists but when asked they'll say they don't have conclusive evidence and don't really know for sure whether or not he exists = agnostic theist.

Someone who says God does not exist = positive/hard/strong atheist.

Atheism is the default "position" until conclusive evidence shows otherwise and the cosmological argument is flawed.

[Csihar]

Satan isn't a name either way. It's ha-satan or "the adversary" or "the accuser". The role of the character mentioned is quite different in the Old Testament than it is in the New Testament (if they're the same person).

[theaetatus]

Only to an ignorant person who is incapable of discerning the truth. The truth exists and it can be known so taking the stance of "guess we'll never know!" is about as retarded as being an atheist.

Taking the stance of "We do not know", however, is the only rational viewpoint. We don't, simple as that.

You have no grounds for proclaiming that "The truth exists and it can be known". You are just guessing like the rest of us.

[pharmakos]

all statements of truth, aside from basic statements about the natural numbers, are necessarily either incomplete or incorrect.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del's_incompleteness_theorems

[Illuzionz]

For someone who refers to the bible alot, you seemingly haven't read it thoroughly, or you just don't remember well ...;

NO where in the old testament does it say that Lucifer and Satan are the same ... Satan ia believed to be a fallen ANGEL, whereas Lucifer is alluded to be the "Antichrist", referencing the King of Babylon, however the name Lucifer is derived from Latin meaning "Lightbearer" and the name of the King of Babylon, Helal, in Hebrew means "Son of Light/Dawn" ...

So to summize using the old testament (bible) which you are so fond of referring to, even depicts Satan and Lucifer as different beings, one being immortal the other mortal ...

Sorry but you don't have a single clue what you're talking about. Not sure where the hell you heard any of the things you just said but the Bible makes it blatantly obvious that Lucifer becomes Satan after his fall. The passage from Isaiah is clearly referring to Lucifer and not the king of Babylon. Why would be refer to the king of Babylon as Lucifer? Also, Jesus later on refers to Satan and says that he saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning just like the passage from Isaiah mentions having happened to Lucifer.

"How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning...For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation on the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'"

The king of Babylon didn't fall from Heaven nor was he in anyway known as the son of the morning. Also it is common knowledge that Satan is the one who wants to be like the Most High. Also, Satan controls the kingdoms of the world and therefor it's kings as well. So when the message would be relayed to the king, Satan would also hear it.

[Ahldagor]

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O'day-star,
Son of the morning!
How art thou cut down to the ground,
That didst cast lots over the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart,
I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.
I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation,
In the sides of the north.
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds,
I will be like the most High."

where is the transfiguration of Lucifer into Satan in this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsayWd5BveQ

[Quientus]

Sorry but you don't have a single clue what you're talking about. Not sure where the hell you heard any of the things you just said but the Bible makes it blatantly obvious that Lucifer becomes Satan after his fall. The passage from Isaiah is clearly referring to Lucifer and not the king of Babylon. Why would be refer to the king of Babylon as Lucifer? Also, Jesus later on refers to Satan and says that he saw Satan fall from Heaven like lightning just like the passage from Isaiah mentions having happened to Lucifer.

Oh boy ... there are so many inconsistencies and misinformation from your part, I don't know where to start ...

I don't know if you are just a troll (a poor one at that even) or just plain ignorant ... or perhaps both ??? :confused:

1) You do realize the word "Lucifer" is derived from latin ? And as such didn't even exist in the "Bible" or "ancient writings" you claim untill the 3rd century AD ...

2) "Satan" is a word / name whose origins far precedes AD 0 ... - But if you really read the "Bible" you would know this ...

3) Searching the Bible, the name Lucifer only appears once and this is in Isaiah 14:12.

In this verse the person is also described as; "Son of the Morning."

This is not necessarily the 'morning star' only found two times in the Book of the Revelation.

Rev 22:16 "I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star". Christ is giving himself this title. The title is not exclusive to Christ who gives this title to anyone who overcomes as he overcame; Rev 2: 26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: ... v28 And I will give him the morning star.

Babylon was at one time the greatest nation/kingdom on earth. God gives the interpretation of King Nebuchadnezzar’s dream (Daniel 2: 36- 45) in which Babylon is identified as the head of Gold. The prophecy goes on to say that the next kingdom to supercede Babylon would be the Medes and the Persians (breast of silver) an inferior nation by comparison to the wealth and splendour of Babylon.

God told through the prophet Isaiah the judgments that would come on Babylon. God’s message was to the to the King of Babylon. Here is the pronouncement made about Babylon

"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah. It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there. But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there. Isaiah 13:19-21

Also; In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court

So it is actually logical to summize that Isiah is talking/referencing the King of Babylon and not some deity ...


The king of Babylon didn't fall from Heaven nor was he in anyway known as the son of the morning. Also it is common knowledge that Satan is the one who wants to be like the Most High. Also, Satan controls the kingdoms of the world and therefor it's kings as well. So when the message would be relayed to the king, Satan would also hear it.

I never claimed that the King of Babylon "fell from heaven" ...

Not to mention the word/name "Satan" ...

However I digress ..., for someone like you, who is all "High and Mighty" and lecturing people in the Bible ... You sure do not seem as if you have really ready it, just the cliff-notes and not even those at best ...

[Daldolma]

calls guy bad troll

furiously posts 15 paragraph retort on elf simulator forum

[pharmakos]

illuzionz is probably into psychedelic drugs and thinks he's seen god

[pharmakos]

you're missing out, this is 46 pages of quality shit right here

[Ahldagor]

https://lh3.ggpht.com/-2R80Ei9flZ8/T9iB9Z40B1I/AAAAAAAAAN0/Kwy4_9Mo2VQ/s400/vince-mcmahon.jpg

[runlvlzero]

Why the fuck is this thread still going and not even really derailed.

Also.

Aliens.

But the aliens are not aliens. It's US.

And this wreck of a civilization is our fault too.

[FoxxHound]

blue cheese

[pharmakos]

He's a troll, and he's succeeding.

i know, i'm enjoying the show

quit breaking the 4th wall!

[Illuzionz]

I don't know if you are just a troll (a poor one at that even) or just plain ignorant ... or perhaps both ???

Neither actually but you absolutely are. Lucifer is a name, not an adjective describing someone but a name, hence why it is capitalized. It is referring to a person and that person is the angel that fell from Heaven. He is only referred to Lucifer once because he is no longer Lucifer but is now Satan. The only person in the entire Bible that matches the description of the scripture in Isaiah is Satan.

"How you have fallen from heaven, Lucifer, son of the dawn!"

Jesus replied, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven."

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Notice how Satan is capitalized and devil isn't? That's because just like Lucifer, it is referring to a name and is not a description. Notice how Lucifer has fallen from heaven just like Jesus says Satan fell from heaven?

Is there any possibility of you removing your head from your ass?

[runlvlzero]

All the Asgard people had horns on their head in Thor, like they were luciferian.

[Csihar]

Illusionz the original (or rather "original") transcription says morning star. In which versions of the Bible does it say Lucifer? Which translations of which translation?

Come on brah.

[Quientus]

Neither actually but you absolutely are. (...)

Not so sure ... All I've done (so far ...) is to refute your preposterous claims and incorrect observations from those (inaccurate) cliff-notes version sheet of paper containing a summary of "Your Bible" ... or something you think is the Bible ...

(...) Lucifer is a name, not an adjective describing someone but a name, hence why it is capitalized. It is referring to a person and that person is the angel that fell from Heaven. (...)

It is correct that "Lucifer" is a name and that it is (probably) referring to a (mortal) person, i.e not a divine "being" ... But the reference is hardly referring to an "angel" ... - You seem totally oblivious to the fact that the name Lucifer didn't even EXIST untill well into the 3rd century AD ... - But again you seem totally to ignore or just plain don't understand this ... - Whereas the word/name "Satan" actually was used centuries before ...

(...) He is only referred to Lucifer once because he is no longer Lucifer but is now Satan. (...)

How you came to this conclusion is absolutely mind-boggling ... Or are you just too entrenched in your fantasy-world that you are not able to see what is around you ? What is it about the fact that the name "Lucifer" didn't appear untill AFTER the name "Satan" ... ? "Lucifer" is the Roman translation of a word - "Morning Star" or similar - "Morning Star" coincidently also being the "name" of which the King of Babylon was known by ...

(...) The only person in the entire Bible that matches the description of the scripture in Isaiah is Satan. (...)

Again, you seriously need to re-read those cliff-notes of yours ... ;

And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Where does the name Lucifer appear ??? That quote isn't even referencing a person ... But yet you think it somehow translates to Lucifer = Satan ?


(...) Notice how Satan is capitalized and devil isn't? That's because just like Lucifer, it is referring to a name and is not a description (...)

Atleast you got this part right ...:rolleyes:

(...) Notice how Lucifer has fallen from heaven just like Jesus says Satan fell from heaven? (...)

Again ... - Jesus says it ... - "Satan fell from Heaven" ... - However notice Jesus never seemed to have EVER said "Lucifer fell from Heaven" ...

(...) Is there any possibility of you removing your head from your ass?

"Pot Meet Kettle ..." - Seriously, you need to go re-read your cliff-notes ... Or maybe read the whole bible instead ... ??? :rolleyes:


Theological discussions are always interesting, however, when (some) people refuses to acknowledge valid reasoning and cannot even begin to comprehend their own arguements and keep contradicting themselves (as you so eloquently have so far ...) it becomes - well ... "Interesting" ... and quite amusing !

[Hasbinbad]

ultimately, i believe that the only rational religious viewpoint is Agnosticism
i've been saying this shit for years

[pharmakos]

but then there's also Pascal's Wager, which makes a lot of sense

[DrKvothe]

but then there's also Pascal's Wager, which makes a lot of sense

I refuse to let this thread die.

Pascal's Wager applies to any and all claims of infinite reward with finite risk. Since there is no evidence of Christianity or any other supernatural belief beyond: "You can't prove it's NOT true!" then anything that can't be disproved but that offers infinite reward should be accepted according to Pascal's Wager.

Let's make the reasonable assumption that the powerball jackpot is more money than any one person could reasonably spend in their lifetime. Therefore the monetary reward is essentially infinite, since the marginal effect of increasing the reward is zero. The odds of winning this jackpot are low, but non-zero. Thus Pascal's Wager makes a good case to spend all of your money on lottery tickets.

But we know that the actual chance of winning the lottery is effectively zero. You're just not going to win, even if you blow your life's savings on it. Why? Because while the chance of winning isn't zero, a reasonable, rational person would realize that it pretty much is.

The bible is written like a set of contradicting folk tales for the gullible and uneducated. Even the miraculous parts of Jesus's life, viewed from the outside by a skeptic, seems like horseshit. A woman is found to be pregnant and it's not her husband's, but she convinces him that it must be a miracle? Jesus is supposed to be the salvation of the Jewish people against Roman tyranny, but instead he's killed young before actually accomplishing anything...and somehow him dying IS the accomplishment? He conquers death but immediately leaves the earth behind before a credible source can witness him? The tyranny he was meant to end continues for centuries anyways, even ultimately adopting him as their mascot?

[Hasbinbad]

You cannot argue against prime motivation by disproving this or that detail of abraham-cult folklore.

[pharmakos]

I refuse to let this thread die.

Pascal's Wager applies to any and all claims of infinite reward with finite risk. Since there is no evidence of Christianity or any other supernatural belief beyond: "You can't prove it's NOT true!" then anything that can't be disproved but that offers infinite reward should be accepted according to Pascal's Wager.

Let's make the reasonable assumption that the powerball jackpot is more money than any one person could reasonably spend in their lifetime. Therefore the monetary reward is essentially infinite, since the marginal effect of increasing the reward is zero. The odds of winning this jackpot are low, but non-zero. Thus Pascal's Wager makes a good case to spend all of your money on lottery tickets.

But we know that the actual chance of winning the lottery is effectively zero. You're just not going to win, even if you blow your life's savings on it. Why? Because while the chance of winning isn't zero, a reasonable, rational person would realize that it pretty much is.

The bible is written like a set of contradicting folk tales for the gullible and uneducated. Even the miraculous parts of Jesus's life, viewed from the outside by a skeptic, seems like horseshit. A woman is found to be pregnant and it's not her husband's, but she convinces him that it must be a miracle? Jesus is supposed to be the salvation of the Jewish people against Roman tyranny, but instead he's killed young before actually accomplishing anything...and somehow him dying IS the accomplishment? He conquers death but immediately leaves the earth behind before a credible source can witness him? The tyranny he was meant to end continues for centuries anyways, even ultimately adopting him as their mascot?

Pascal's Wager isn't asking you to spend all your money, though. just a small change of mind.

also, i don't think Pascal was thinking much about the Bible.

[DrKvothe]

Pascal's wager asks for more than money, it asks for faith. That's the cost of placing your bet. The unwavering belief in something without evidence for, and despite all evidence or appeals to logic against that ought to persuade you. Without actual belief, you haven't actually placed your bet.

I've covered the costs of faith in my previous posts.

[pharmakos]

I've covered the costs of faith in my previous posts.

i'm too lazy to dig through the last 48 pages. can you recap?

[radditsu]

i'm too lazy to dig through the last 48 pages. can you recap?

Gayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyuuuyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy yyyyy6yyyyyyyy!

[pharmakos]

you wish i was gay, homo

[radditsu]

you wish i was gay, homo

My anaconda don't want none.

[dalkice]

"I'm tired of these monkey fighting snakes on this monday to friday plane" - Samuel L. Jackson

[Illuzionz]

Pascal's wager asks for more than money, it asks for faith. That's the cost of placing your bet. The unwavering belief in something without evidence for, and despite all evidence or appeals to logic against that ought to persuade you. Without actual belief, you haven't actually placed your bet.

I've covered the costs of faith in my previous posts.

Unwavering belief in something without evidence. Sure sounds a lot like evolution. Nobody has ever seen it occur. Check. Highly contradictory evidence that makes no sense. Check.

I just want you to know that you and people like you literally hold back the entire human race.

[pharmakos]

Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain.
Against true luminance the bright ones lose their sheen,
but through humility the dullest troll can fail discretely.