Necro vs Enchanter Charm

[HippoNipple]

How would you compare a necro charm vs enchanter charm? Charisma for an enchanter matters, so assume 200+ charisma. Also, are there any deciding factors on how a necro charm performs other than level of mob vs level of caster?

[Aerar]

well its undead vs everything so there is that

[Ele]

charisma only matters for enchanter charm and vendoring goods.

necros and druids don't care.

[HippoNipple]

One of you geniuses of PvE need to drop some knowledge in this thread. I'm assuming enchanters still out class necromancers in charming undead but you never know. Even if it was that way in classic things here aren't always the same. Does anyone have any experience with both on this server?

[Jauna]

Cha is a small factor in any charm. Charm duration is mostly your level vs the targets level+its MR

[Aerar]

the issue is also, chanters need to charm - necros have a static pet, that while not as high dmg as a charmed pet - wont ever break and is pretty effective

[murcielago200]

Why is this stuff still secret? We have all the code. Can't a few tech savvy people read into it and no more guess work?

[HippoNipple]

I'm not trying to debate which class is better for other reasons outside of the charm.

I just wanted to know if anyone had experience with enchanter (200+ charisma) vs necromancer charms on undead as far as resists, consistency and duration.

This will come down to what duo is better, enchanter or necro, with a cleric in somewhere like HS. I didn't want to bring that up at first because I see this leading to people talking about other spells enchanters/necros have that could help with the duo. I am familiar with the other benefits of each class.

[SamwiseRed]

id still say enchanter, they have better methods for controlling their charm, altho necs do have fd, also doesnt the necro haste spell only work on their skellies? that means chanters pet will always be more productive than necros unless i am wrong. based on what ive seen druid vs chanter charming iceberg, id say chanter last longer.

[Iumuno]

I'm not sure if it translated entirely like that over p1999 but here's how it went on live back in 99-04:

CHA only mattered for the resist rate, making it a fairly useless stat for charming, because if the mob could resist your charm spell outright, then the average duration wasn't going to be long anyway.

The average duration of charm was 100% MR based.

[Lyra]

Cha is a small factor in any charm. Charm duration is mostly your level vs the targets level+its MR

Brad McQuaid: "CHA: affects amount you will be paid for goods by NPC merchants, and how much they will pay you; affects the saving throw on certain bard and enchanter spells (charms in particular) http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0

I know I read that wisdom affects Druid charm, but can't find it at the moment.

[Splorf22]

GZ stated multiple times that Level, MR, and Charisma (in that order) were the factors that affected charm duration.

Also I tried a necromancer and I felt like their charm was substantially weaker. Maybe they have a low 'effective' charisma or maybe tash is just that important. Or maybe my feeling is wrong.

[Jauna]

Brad McQuaid: "CHA: affects amount you will be paid for goods by NPC merchants, and how much they will pay you; affects the saving throw on certain bard and enchanter spells (charms in particular) http://web.archive.org/web/20000414211531/http://www.neriak.com/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/pazuzu/powernews.cgi?General+Everquest+News#0

I know I read that wisdom affects Druid charm, but can't find it at the moment.

Yeah, I never said cha was useless. But it is a small factor in charming. Level>MR>Cha

A level 50 necro would have an easier time charming a level 40 mob then a level 45.

A level 50 enchanter would have an easier time charming the same level 45 mob then the necro just because of Tash alone.

[HippoNipple]

Thanks for the input guys. Very good point with the Tash spell and that pretty much answers my question.

[Elements]

I'm not trying to debate which class is better for other reasons outside of the charm.

I just wanted to know if anyone had experience with enchanter (200+ charisma) vs necromancer charms on undead as far as resists, consistency and duration.

This will come down to what duo is better, enchanter or necro, with a cleric in somewhere like HS. I didn't want to bring that up at first because I see this leading to people talking about other spells enchanters/necros have that could help with the duo. I am familiar with the other benefits of each class.

If its on undead Id go necro for FD+ee rez.

[Champion_Standing]

Yeah, I never said cha was useless. But it is a small factor in charming. Level>MR>Cha

A level 50 necro would have an easier time charming a level 40 mob then a level 45.

A level 50 enchanter would have an easier time charming the same level 45 mob then the necro just because of Tash alone.

200+ cha makes a huge difference in charm duration on this server, try it out.

[Malone88]

Yeah, I never said cha was useless. But it is a small factor in charming. Level>MR>Cha

A level 50 necro would have an easier time charming a level 40 mob then a level 45.

A level 50 enchanter would have an easier time charming the same level 45 mob then the necro just because of Tash alone.
Level difference, by far, is most important factor.

I don't think a level 50 enchanter will be able to hold down a level 45 mob either, even with 200+ CHA and Tash on the mob. A level 40 mob (or light blue) will last MUCH longer for both Chanter and Necro (and be much less dangerous on breaks).

With regards to duoing with a Cleric, as Samwise pointed out, don't think a Necro can haste his charmed pet, and that tips the scales in the Enchanter's favor (IMO). Perhaps I'm wrong on this, haven't played a high-lev Necro...

[Splorf22]

I don't think a level 50 enchanter will be able to hold down a level 45 mob either

I kept a L53 ilis knight charmed for several hours at a spore king group once. I'm not sure it was really worth it though; he was a handful.

[Vermicelli]

From a thread last year:
Ok so I grabbed a cleric (thanks Kriven) and charmed goos in COM, and the results were very striking.

First, I found a pet who was just on the cusp of charming viability. At level 52 I grabbed a goo hitting for 116. Prior to this we tried a goo hitting for 120 but even with full charisma gear could not keep it charmed with duration good enough to exp reliably. This choice was intentional, because what I really care about is keeping the best mob I can for as long as I can. I'm sure results would be very different for a light blue mob. On every break the mob was tashed and re-charmed. I just pulled all the data out of my log file after our session and crunched it all using excel. results are as follows:

High Charisma dataset (CHA = 224)
Time of trial: 0:40:18 (or 0.672 hours)
Breaks: 7
Breaks per hour(extrapolated): 10.42
Avg Duration: 5.76 minutes
Median Duration: 3 minutes 10 seconds

Low Charisma dataset (CHA = 95)
Time of trial: 0:58:04 (0.968 hours)
Breaks: 25
Breaks per hour(extrapolated): 25.83
Avg Duration: 2.32 minutes
Median Duration: 1 minute 4 seconds

So conclusion -- charisma has a massive effect on charm duration when charming mobs at the high end of the "viable pet level" spectrum at level 52 in this dataset. In this case, I had almost 2.5 times more breaks per hour (10 to 25) with 95 charisma vs. my normal charisma of 224. This translated into more than doubling my charm durations on average (2.32 minutes with low charisma boosted up to 5.76 minutes with 224 cha). Even with a few caveats discussed below, I'd say the numbers speak for themselves. The cleric I worked with (who didn't specifically know which data set was which) pretty much figured out within three minutes when I had pulled off my charisma gear, and didn't even want to keep going as it was so clear cut. I forced him to deal with my lower charisma for another 55 minutes.

[Llodd]

A level 50 enchanter would have an easier time charming the same level 45 mob then the necro just because of Tash alone.

Pretty much this.

[Nune]

From doing KC way, way, way to often (bout the only zone i get a group in besides Seb) my experience would say this -

Enchanters will have much more full length charms, but seem to also have more 10-45 second charms also. I am not turbo nerd, cant explain this with math, just noting what i've noticed.

Necromancers are a little more "random" with my 54 charm I'd say on average my charms last about 5-7 minutes, but very rarely do i get a quick break. When I first got the 54 charm i would root rot merbs and use the pet to finish them off, just so i could get a feel for how long the charm was working on average. (catch 22 being Necro charm is more used for charm killing both the target and your current pet, whereas Enchanter charms are more utilized in groups as their "pet")

[Autotune]

Charisma matters for enchanter
No stats matter for necro charm.

MR debuff/s will help both.

Necro undead charms by themselves are completely random (except the one charm with fixed duration).

Enchanters have stronger charms, due to charisma and having MR debuffs.

Edit: As far as duoing with a cleric, if you're strictly facing undead mobs and aren't going after extremely difficult undead mini bosses at that, the necro will outperform an enchanter all day long.

[astuce999]

My necro loves to charm, and carries an Orb of Tishan to make things that much easier.

The synergy when duoing with a shaman is insane; they malos the pet and tank it until tash procs, then once you charm it they can haste it, the necro heals the shaman at a very low mana cost, and the shaman regens the necro to counter lich effects.

Just a godly duo.

Astuce

[mishurza]

If you are trying to farm an area say seb crypt, and are going to be there for a while, invest in some negative MR gear for your charmed pet. It will improve the duration of your charms. Silver Jacinth Rings, Adamantite Band, Rusty Iron gear, etc.

[fishingme]

55+ id say necro/chanter is decently even on charming undead. Lower than, chanter wins.

[Teppler]

55+ id say necro/chanter is decently even on charming undead. Lower than, chanter wins.

Yup. I'm not sure if charming at lower than 50 is efficient at all for necro's but 55+ it is pretty damn strong.

[fishingme]

Yup. I'm not sure if charming at lower than 50 is efficient at all for necro's but 55+ it is pretty damn strong.

I've done sparatic necro charming below 50 and I didn't find it all too great in comparison with my enchanter. 50-54 wasn't too bad but it definitely still broke more often than my enchanter in the same levels.

[Yumyums Inmahtumtums]

200+ cha makes a huge difference in charm duration on this server, try it out.

This.

My enchanters unuffed CHA is 185 and buffed it's 200. The difference between these two numbers is off the chart (on the order of double the amount of charm recasts for unbuffed).

Did some duoing with a necro in DL and his charm on similar L37 mobs was quite a bit lower than mine even though we were the same level. I was also using Beguile instead of Cajoling whispers (my pet was 36) and Tashing his pet for him on breaks.

He was also 1 level lower than me so ymmv.

[Clark]

Charisma matters for enchanter
No stats matter for necro charm.

MR debuff/s will help both.

Necro undead charms by themselves are completely random (except the one charm with fixed duration).

Enchanters have stronger charms, due to charisma and having MR debuffs.