Weighted Point Value System - Serverwide Raid Idea Thread

[Yinikren]

Hey guys, Abomination from Taken here. Before I even get this started, I want to make it clear that I am by no means Taken's spokesperson - I never claimed to be - I just want everything out in the open as far as what conspiracy theories surround me, etc.

That being said, this is my revamped idea of a weighted points system for the endgame raiding scene here on P99. The idea received a decent amount of support from several guilds in the original 50-odd page raid agreement discussion. I am expanding it here so it becomes more visible to the public without digging. I encourage those with other ideas to do the same.

Original credit goes to Xasten of TMO for initially proposing a "bag limit" style of raiding to prevent mob monopolization. I kind of took the idea and ran with it, expanding the process so it can easily work for more than 2-3 guilds and well into Velious.

CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISM and COMMENTS are encouraged. I want to hear about what you guys think of this idea, any holes I have forgotten, or how you feel in general. I ask that there please be no trolling or deferring from the subject - It is important that we stay on topic with these raid idea threads so that it is easier to keep up-to-date with ideas guilds are for and against.

Now, as I mentioned, the idea I recreated revolved around a weighted point system. Guilds are given a number of points each week to "spend" on mobs. Guilds that win loot from a mob are the ones to spend points on said mob. Guilds are welcome to band together to attempt mobs with each other. This idea opens up raiding for at least 5-6 guilds, ends all monopolies held by a single guild, fosters competition for valuable mobs while making guilds decide what mobs to pursue, and will police itself because guilds always seem to know the instant another guild kills a mob. All we need is a GM to drop a week suspension on guilds that go over their limit and this system should run itself after the server decides on mob point values.

Any guild capable of forming a raid force to down the majority of the mobs currently on the server should be able to get allocated points to raid each week. However, I am all for a time-based determination on who can raid - brand new guilds and splinter guilds should be formed for a certain period of time before they are allowed to be allocated points and raid regularly. This, in combination with CSR watching for splinter guilds, should help ensure that guilds don't split off for the sole purpose of being able to raid more.

Lets say that every raid-capable guild gets 100 points a week to spend on mobs. They are, to my knowledge: TMO, FE/IB, BDA, Taken, A-team, Azure Guard, and Europa. That is 700 total points a week. Apologies if I forgot your guild - it is late - and guilds like the bob guild don't count since they are new guilds. They are welcome to attempt mobs they happen to find up, but can't be allocated points until they have been established a certain period of time, IMO.

Now, onto the mobs. There are 19 classic-> Kunark Raid mobs. A raid mob, by my definition, is a mob that has a 3-7 day spawn timer, usually takes more than one full group to kill, drops loot usable by more than one class, and is not solely related to an epic quest. I do not count any mobs in sky, with the exception of the Noble Dojorn cycle, as raid mobs, due to them already being on an established rotation.

Here is a list of all current raid mobs, in no particular order, and experimental point costs associated with them. Epic mobs cost more, but at this point in time I don't think the scale-dropping dragons should count since they are droppable.
Trakanon: 50 points. Key/epic mob.
Venril Sathir: 50 points. Epic mob.
Noble Dojorn, Overseer of Air, Hand of Veeshan: 50 points for the cycle.
Lord Nagafen: 25 points.
Lady Vox: 25 points.
Maestro of Rancor: 25 points. Epic mob, but meh.
Innoruuk: 50 points. Epic mob.
Faydedar: 50 Points. Epic mob.
Talendor: 25 points.
Gorenaire: 25 points.
Severilous: 25 points.
Phara Dar: 50 points.
Silverwing: 25 points.
Hoshkar: 25 points.
Nexona: 25 points.
Druushk: 25 points.
Xygoz: 25 points.
A dracoliche: 25 points.
Cazic-Thule: 50 points. Epic mob.

A word on the point costs - Yes, they are experimental and need to be decided on. These initial values are more to illustrate my point with the idea.

Key mobs and epic mobs are increased in value so that they cannot be monopolized by a guild. If a guild chooses to pursue Trakanon for VP keys, they do this knowing full well they have to give up either loot mobs or epic mobs to do so. This doesn't guarantee they get the mob - they will still have to track and compete for it - but it does mean the guilds have to choose what targets they will want each week and focus on them.

Now, the #1 thing people will bitch about is that guilds are getting handed mobs. That simply isn't the case - there are too many raid guilds already on the server for this system to possibly give every guild a decent number of mobs. The idea of this system I recreated is to limit the mob intake of the guilds that were monopolizing content in such a way that every mob remains open for competition. There are no rotations and no free mobs. There are no tiers, where family guilds get stuck going after Maestro while hardcore guilds can engage everything else.

The idea is that everything is left up to that guild's choice and their desire to put in time to compete. If guild A wants to farm VP keys for some recruits that week, that's fine. They are exchanging the chance to attempt loot mobs to go attempt Trakanon. This doesn't mean they will get Trak - They will still have to track it and compete with everyone else attempting to get Trak - But it does mean they have to focus on priorities for what their guild needs rather than facerolling content as fast as it spawns. This also means that after they get a certain number of mobs, they are done for the week, and more targets open up for the other guilds.

The main reasons I am for this idea are because it is easy to police and it is easy to adjust into Velious. Mob point costs can be toned down when Velious is opened, since the expansion will triple the number of raid mobs the server will have to engage.
This idea also requires nearly no input from any GMs or guilds, except when a guild oversteps its limit. The only thing it would need is a relevant raid subforum, where guilds could discuss adjusted point costs, why a mob may be to high or low valued, etc. A reduction or the removal of variance would be nice, but not required by this system to make it work.

Now, it is late, so I am sure I missed things, but I am eager to get this discussion going. With that, I will end this wall of text. I will add things as I remember them, if anything was forgotten.

[Autotune]

Remove sky costs.
Lower raid target costs across the board or raise the guild allowance.

normal raid target costs are too high.


A top raiding guild shouldn't be forced to a maximum of 4 raids per week. Actually, no guild should be pigeon holed into only 4 raids. The goal (the overall goal of the staff) is to stop the monopoly, not crush every raiding guild into oblivion.


Your point values severely stifle competition and raiding.

[Yinikren]

That's why the point costs are experimental, but I appreciate the input.

Hows it look with a potential guild allowance of 150 points per guild?

[Ecguy]

A potential outcome of this, and not necessarily due to nefarious reasons, is that large guilds see a lot of members exit. They may form a new smaller guild or they may join an existing smaller guild.

Not everyone in the large guilds has been farming content for years. They do have new members that need/want items from the 'lower' tier mobs.

Overall, the solution will more evenly redistribute additional loot and lower guild competition friction. Just realize that this is a bandaid that doesn't solve the root cause and will have unintended consequences. Root cause = not enough mobs for the sheer number of raid capable people on the server.

[toosweet]

No.
The server still needs to be competitive, not have an 'allowance' to spend on bosses.
The guilds need to work for a boss, track mobilize and prep for it. This makes it rewarding when you kill a boss that you put in time for and earned it.

Special point systems or calendar rotation or tier engages are no good.
Many of the raid guilds are capable of killing most bosses in the game if they go after them.
A big part of the game has always been putting in the time and effort and getting a big kill.
I think limiting tmo or whoever with a point system or bag limit is just a way to take from one guild and give to another.

[Yinikren]

I've accounted for people splintering off - guilds should be established for an amount of time determined by the server before they are allowed to be allocated points. This will prevent guilds from splintering for the express purpose of getting more mobs - not to mention they would only be competing with themselves anyway.

Also - did you read the post, toosweet? The entire idea was to foster competition for mobs without making a rotation, tier system or letting one guild monopolize content.

[Autotune]

You're looking at lets say, 18 raid targets per week (not ideal)

A single guild should be allowed to kill around 9-11, possibly slightly more(could adjust things after the system is in place). Now, add in competition, variance, point strategy, and spawns happening before others due to the large windows and a top raiding would likely fall short of that maximum each week.

You want guilds to have to decide if they want to hold on to their points for something better that may come along, or if they should try to spend the points before the end of the week on whatever happens to pop.

The way you have it now, even with a 200 cap, it's very likely guilds will always be holding out for their most wanted target and strategy will play very little into "spending" points.

Large guilds aren't classic, that's been established and guilds splintering won't matter because not everyone in the top raiding guilds are top skilled raiders.

[Autotune]

I think limiting tmo or whoever with a point system or bag limit is just a way to take from one guild and give to another.

Every guild is being limited, that's the point of coming up with a system that stops raid target monopolies.

[Yinikren]

If guilds are holding out for targets... then that means they aren't facerolling mobs the second they spawn. A guild holding out for Trakanon ends up passing on epic mobs because of it... sounds pretty good for the majority of the guilds.

I would, however, be 10000000% for removal of variance so all mobs will spawn each week.

[Lazie]

You just won't get all the guilds on board with this system man. Just way too many flaws in it. There has to be effort and work put in or you definitely are not getting the Top guilds to agree to it. Allowances without earning that allowance will simply be called a handout.

To top it off you are punishing guilds for becoming VP capable by adding cost to those Dragons. Why should the 2 or 3 guilds who worked to get keyed for that zone have to then pay more points out of an unearned allowance to kill mobs in a zone they worked to get keyed for ?

Tiered base mix of rotation and FFA is the only thing that you will get everyone on board with. The only question is what guilds are willing to rotate/give up.

[Lazie]

Also with Variance some of these mobs they may want to spend points on is going to end up on longer than 7 day timers. Do the points then rollover to the next week ? It's just not gonna work with the current raiding mechanics.

[Yinikren]

In my mind, guilds get rewarded simply by having the option of being able to go to a locked zone like VP and not having to compete with the rest of the server.... why shouldn't they pay for VP mobs? That's their prerogative if they want to go for loot mobs in VP that they worked to get keyed for. It means another guild gets to work on epic mobs or key themselves off Trak. And I did say I would be 10000% for the removal of variance.

[Lazie]

In my mind, guilds get rewarded simply by having the option of being able to go to a locked zone like VP and not having to compete with the rest of the server.... why shouldn't they pay for VP mobs? That's their prerogative if they want to go for loot mobs in VP that they worked to get keyed for. It means another guild gets to work on epic mobs or key themselves off Trak. And I did say I would be 10000% for the removal of variance.

OK...then what ? Everyone gets VP keyed up because of this point system and everyone wants to spend their points on VP mobs...Guess what happens then. You have to spend the points ahead of time and setup a VP rotation on future points.

[Yinikren]

Doing the math, I have 750 points worth of raid mobs and 700 points of guilds if they are each allocated 100 points. Allocating guilds 150 points a week brings that total to 1050 points worth of guilds, which I think is a more reasonable number. Not everyone is getting mobs, but those who fill up to their cap first will be forced to concede to other guilds.

[Ecguy]

I've accounted for people splintering off - guilds should be established for an amount of time determined by the server before they are allowed to be allocated points. This will prevent guilds from splintering for the express purpose of getting more mobs - not to mention they would only be competing with themselves anyway.

Also - did you read the post, toosweet? The entire idea was to foster competition for mobs without making a rotation, tier system or letting one guild monopolize content.

They are not competing with themselves. They would be going after targets that the large guilds would be ignoring. It may not be a bad thing, it's just possible due to the rule set.

A single guild should be allowed to kill around 9-11, possibly slightly more(could adjust things after the system is in place). Now, add in competition, variance, point strategy, and spawns happening before others due to the large windows and a top raiding would likely fall short of that maximum each week.

If one guild is permitted to take 50% of the mobs, two guilds can still get 100% of the mobs. Right or wrong, I'm simply doing the math.

[Autotune]

You just won't get all the guilds on board with this system man. Just way too many flaws in it. There has to be effort and work put in or you definitely are not getting the Top guilds to agree to it. Allowances without earning that allowance will simply be called a handout.

To top it off you are punishing guilds for becoming VP capable by adding cost to those Dragons. Why should the 2 or 3 guilds who worked to get keyed for that zone have to then pay more points out of an unearned allowance to kill mobs in a zone they worked to get keyed for ?

Tiered base mix of rotation and FFA is the only thing that you will get everyone on board with. The only question is what guilds are willing to rotate/give up.

rotate is the same as a handout. a point system is nothing but a weekly limit that is weighted by supply/demand/rarity.

Punishing guilds how? They kill the targets and only have to compete with 2 or 3 guilds as opposed to having to compete with everyone, there is your reward for getting keyed.

You guys make me laugh.

[Lazie]

Doing the math, I have 750 points worth of raid mobs and 700 points of guilds if they are each allocated 100 points. Allocating guilds 150 points a week brings that total to 1050 points worth of guilds, which I think is a more reasonable number. Not everyone is getting mobs, but those who fill up to their cap first will be forced to concede to other guilds.

Just would never work man. You would just logjam VP or Sleepers when Velious releases with people in the long run. You have to have a progression to the system and keep the high end competitive.

[Yinikren]

You don't spend points ahead, Lazie. You compete for mobs just like we are now. The guild who gets the mob and the loot spends their points. This isn't a bidding system. It's a bag limit to keep guilds from taking too many mobs per week.

If three guilds all want to compete for Trak, nothing is stopping them until someone kills it. But it may not be in their best interest to sit around and wait for Trak when they could be getting less contested epic mobs.

[Yinikren]

Autotune has this down. You aren't bidding on mobs. You're paying after you successfully compete and kill them.

[Lazie]

rotate is the same as a handout. a point system is nothing but a weekly limit that is weighted by supply/demand/rarity.

Punishing guilds how? They kill the targets and only have to compete with 2 or 3 guilds as opposed to having to compete with everyone, there is your reward for getting keyed.

You guys make me laugh.

But you keep the high end competitive. Make Trak and VP FFA and that keeps the competition in the game. We want a system that makes everyone happy. That everyone will agree on and work under. Rotate some mobs (Epic Piece mobs). I layed out the system in another thread that would be a good starting point. This isn't about me I am not VP keyed yet.

[Lazie]

You don't spend points ahead, Lazie. You compete for mobs just like we are now. The guild who gets the mob and the loot spends their points. This isn't a bidding system. It's a bag limit to keep guilds from taking too many mobs per week.

If three guilds all want to compete for Trak, nothing is stopping them until someone kills it. But it may not be in their best interest to sit around and wait for Trak when they could be getting less contested epic mobs.

You won't get everyone on board with it bro is all I am saying. Too many flaws in it and not enough competition to make everyone happy.

[Autotune]

If one guild is permitted to take 50% of the mobs, two guilds can still get 100% of the mobs. Right or wrong, I'm simply doing the math.

You didn't do the math correctly, considering that different targets are weighted differently.

A single guild should be able to mop up a large quantity of the low value targets (the OPs point system is way off), however, that would leave several high value targets that should be valued in such a way that only a few could be taken out by a single guild.

Now, with competition, variance, and point strategy the odds of a three guilds taking everything should be very minimal.

[Yinikren]

What about this is making the high end uncompetitive? A rotation hands out mobs. With this system, there's not enough mobs to go around, but it does limit what guilds can take on a weekly basis so more guilds can attempt mobs themselves.

[Yinikren]

And I would love to hear point suggestions - that was the point of this thread, to discuss the idea. :)

[Autotune]

But you keep the high end competitive. Make Trak and VP FFA and that keeps the competition in the game. We want a system that makes everyone happy. That everyone will agree on and work under. Rotate some mobs (Epic Piece mobs). I layed out the system in another thread that would be a good starting point. This isn't about me I am not VP keyed yet.

The high end competition is still there, you're making up a problem that isn't there. Trak will always be a competitive mob and so will VP mobs because there are still 2 guilds that need gear from them that are currently keyed.

You're suggestion is to give epic handouts in the form of rotations to sate the masses, instead of putting in a system that gears up the masses.

[Ecguy]

You didn't do the math correctly, considering that different targets are weighted differently.

A single guild should be able to mop up a large quantity of the low value targets (the OPs point system is way off), however, that would leave several high value targets that should be valued in such a way that only a few could be taken out by a single guild.

Now, with competition, variance, and point strategy the odds of a three guilds taking everything should be very minimal.

Okay. I just misunderstand what you were posting.

[Lazie]

The high end competition is still there, you're making up a problem that isn't there. Trak will always be a competitive mob and so will VP mobs because there are still 2 guilds that need gear from them that are currently keyed.

You're suggestion is to give epic handouts in the form of rotations to sate the masses, instead of putting in a system that gears up the masses.

No I am proposing a system to get people their gear off mobs like VS and their epics to compete on mobs like Trak and in the future VP. I am proposing a system that will make progression possible on the server and keep the high end of the game still tough to access but possible with work. You are just adding bias that isn't there.

[Autotune]

And I would love to hear point suggestions - that was the point of this thread, to discuss the idea. :)

I've already talked about this more than enough when I first brought it up a few days ago.

[Lazie]

And I would love to hear point suggestions - that was the point of this thread, to discuss the idea. :)

A point system won't work.

[Yinikren]

If you have serious ideas about an idea, post it - this thread is for constructive criticism on a weighted point system to see who would be for or against it and their thoughts as to why. I'm not seeing the issues you posted (competiton is never going away, I'm making guilds choose what they want each week) but I will be happy to answer any more questions you might have on this idea.

[Yinikren]

Sorry Stealin, I haven't gone back forum surfing - it is 4am and I am sleepy. Anyway, it's also one of the reasons we could use a raid subforum - every mob could have a thread discussion about their point cost relative to the whole system.

[Autotune]

No I am proposing a system to get people their gear off mobs like VS and their epics to compete on mobs like Trak and in the future VP. I am proposing a system that will make progression possible on the server and keep the high end of the game still tough to access but possible with work. You are just adding bias that isn't there.

No, I know exactly what several people are thinking. They don't want a point system because Trakanon will be valued extremely high and the few top end guilds want him FFA to discourage other guilds from trying to key up to VP. The goal has always been to block other guilds from VP.

Forcing guilds to limit themselves with raids per week if they want to cockblock VP is a great idea. Go ahead and block it, spend the points for the high value targets and while the few guilds are doing that, the other guilds will be able to clean house on all the other targets and a few epic mobs.

[Yinikren]

No, I know exactly what several people are thinking. They don't want a point system because Trakanon will be valued extremely high and the few top end guilds want him FFA to discourage other guilds from trying to key up to VP. The goal has always been to block other guilds from VP.

Forcing guilds to limit themselves with raids per week if they want to cockblock VP is a great idea. Go ahead and block it, spend the points for the high value targets and while the few guilds are doing that, the other guilds will be able to clean house on all the other targets and a few epic mobs.

Summed it up perfectly. Other than my shitty points costs, but at least its easy to add in your head! I wanted Maestro to cost less, but then it wouldn't go evenly into 100 and I didn't want him to be free.... =P

[Lazie]

No, I know exactly what several people are thinking. They don't want a point system because Trakanon will be valued extremely high and the few top end guilds want him FFA to discourage other guilds from trying to key up to VP. The goal has always been to block other guilds from VP.

Forcing guilds to limit themselves with raids per week if they want to cockblock VP is a great idea. Go ahead and block it, spend the points for the high value targets and while the few guilds are doing that, the other guilds will be able to clean house on all the other targets and a few epic mobs.

Wrong again. What people want is to keep competition. If you put this point system in place NO ONE outside of TMO/FE/IB/BDA is going to kill Trak because those are the guilds that will have the points and willingness to track him. Guess what ? Those are the same guilds with VP keys already. The same mobs will get rotated beyond TMO/FE/IB/BDA once those 3 entities spend their points and it will be a crap shoot to finish epics.

In the system I proposed all guilds that want to get on the epic mobs would have a shot to do so and earn their epics.

[Autotune]

Wrong again. What people want is to keep competition. If you put this point system in place NO ONE outside of TMO/FE/IB/BDA is going to kill Trak because those are the guilds that will have the points and willingness to track him. Guess what ? Those are the same guilds with VP keys already. The same mobs will get rotated beyond TMO/FE/IB/BDA once those 3 entities spend their points and it will be a crap shoot to finish epics.

In the system I proposed all guilds that want to get on the epic mobs would have a shot to do so and earn their epics.

Why would they not have the points to go for trak? I'm very curious as to why that is and guilds already don't want to track, that's why they are pushing to have variance reduced to make the raid scene more classic and more friendly.

[Yinikren]

Uhm, no. Any guild that kills Trak spends a large amount of points to do so. They can keep trak down all they want, at the cost of leaving up VP and epic mobs to do so. That's the point of this system - guilds have to choose what they want to kill. Making trak FFA isn't going to enable any more guilds to kill him. Its just going to make him be killed even faster because the guilds who might not be able to kill him because they are capped on points can kill him anyway.

[Yinikren]

In fact, I would go so far to say that it is simply unfeasible for most guilds to attempt Trak - too many guilds already have raid forces camped down there. A points system would help eliminate this issue because not all of those guilds may want to engage trak, if they would rather do epics or VP for loot.

[Lazie]

Why would they not have the points to go for trak? I'm very curious as to why that is and guilds already don't want to track, that's why they are pushing to have variance reduced to make the raid scene more classic and more friendly.

I didn't say remove points for Trak... But If TMO doesn't kill Trak and doesn't spend points on him the line of succession will be FE/IB>BDA with their points. The same 3 guilds already VP keyed. You will just be supplying those 3 guilds VP and VP keys without competition at all. The only Competition will be who wins the mobs they want for the week and then they will spread their points to the next best mobs.

You will have the same situation you just said big guilds want. People locked out of VP with this system. But with this system you will also have no guarantee that all guilds will get a shot at their epic mobs. It is just full of flaws of what most people want. A chance to finish their epic and to progress on the server while maintaining competition.

[Autotune]

I didn't say remove points for Trak... But If TMO doesn't kill Trak and doesn't spend points on him the line of succession will be FE/IB>BDA with their points. The same 3 guilds already VP keyed. You will just be supplying those 3 guilds VP and VP keys without competition at all. The only Competition will be who wins the mobs they want for the week and then they will spread their points to the next best mobs.

You will have the same situation you just said big guilds want. People locked out of VP with this system. But with this system you will also have no guarantee that all guilds will get a shot at their epic mobs. It is just full of flaws of what most people want. A chance to finish their epic and to progress on the server while maintaining competition.

more vp keys for FE/IB/BDA hurts no one but TMO and opens up more of the raid scene outside of VP by putting more of a raid scene inside of VP.

The guilds that aren't able to compete in VP will have little problem with more guilds moving into VP, considering even if they had trak to themselves it would take a single guild months to key into VP now.

[Yinikren]

What if IBFE had already spent their points in VP that week? What if BDA decided to go after Inny for ranger epics? Every guild has to give up something to farm trak. I am not sure how else I can possibly explain this. There is no better solution for giving trak to other guilds short of handing him to them in a rotation. The best way to do this is to preoccupy guilds with something else. Nothing is going to stop a guild from killing trak, but then you get to attempt the mobs they willingly gave up to kill him in the first place.

[Autotune]

Also, we aren't supposed to come up with plans to guarantee every guild gets their epics. The system is only supposed to stop a guild or two from having a monopoly on raid targets.

[Brut]

A potential outcome of this, and not necessarily due to nefarious reasons, is that large guilds see a lot of members exit. They may form a new smaller guild or they may join an existing smaller guild..
Good. 100+ player active rosters is not classic.

[Lazie]

more vp keys for FE/IB/BDA hurts no one but TMO and opens up more of the raid scene outside of VP by putting more of a raid scene inside of VP.

The guilds that aren't able to compete in VP will have little problem with more guilds moving into VP, considering even if they had trak to themselves it would take a single guild months to key into VP now.

I think me and you are close in the ball park of what we are trying to say actually. But what we both need to realize is no matter what system you implement unless it is a rotation on every single mob VP is going to remain keyed up by only the 3 entities listed. So the next concern goes to people having chances at engages on boss mobs and finishing their epics. This system will only reward the guilds sporadically with no real guarantee they will get a shot at the epic pieces they need. That is my sole thought process.

You need a Tier for it and while a point system is good in theory it will simply still give the mobs to the people who track the most past TMO/FE/IB/BDA. It won't distribute the wealth to the entire server. Taken will likely be the biggest benefactor of this system.

Then you have the same 4 guilds who were getting kills before getting kills again...Just spread out more evenly across those 4 guilds. I think most people want a change to the server that gives all guilds a shot to progress with work.

[Autotune]

I think me and you are close in the ball park of what we are trying to say actually. But what we both need to realize is no matter what system you implement unless it is a rotation on every single mob VP is going to remain keyed up by only the 3 entities listed. So the next concern goes to people having chances at engages on boss mobs and finishing their epics. This system will only reward the guilds sporadically with no real guarantee they will get a shot at the epic pieces they need. That is my sole thought process.

You need a Tier for it and while a point system is good in theory it will simply still give the mobs to the people who track the most past TMO/FE/IB/BDA. It won't distribute the wealth to the entire server. Taken will likely be the biggest benefactor of this system.

Then you have the same 4 guilds who were getting kills before getting kills again...Just spread out more evenly across those 4 guilds. I think most people want a change to the server that gives all guilds a shot to progress with work.

The difference is giving guilds opportunity and giving guilds raid targets. People have already started talking about not wanting hand outs, but wanting the time sink that is raiding due to variance adjusted to be more classic along with these new raiding rules/system (whichever system gets implemented).

In the end, if the huge casual slap in the face that is variance isn't adjusted heavily to be more in line with classic, nothing sort of giving guilds raid targets will help. It's already been stated several hundred times that it's a casual cockblock and only supports huge roster raid guilds in monopolizing the raid content.

[Yinikren]

Kills spread across 4 guilds or kills spread across 1 guild... Take your pick. I don't expect anyone to be HAPPY with the decision, because any system we come up with will have to limit mobs in one way or another. Any sort of rotation that hands mobs to guilds is a no go. My system fosters competition - guilds that put in the work are getting mobs. It may not be the mobs they want, but its a lot better than the monopoly we had the last two years.

It is simply not possible to cut guilds to the point where everyone on the server gets mob attempts. Guilds still have to work for their mobs. They just can't take the majority with this system. They have to choose what mobs to pursue each week.

[Tasslehofp99]

I'm half asleep right now so forgive me if you already addressed this.

What happens when one guild only wants to kill the same 3 targets every week?

Lets day guild A is only interested in trak, vs, and sev. Guild B wants sev too, would it just come down to which guild uses more points?

I don't see how setting point values would work unless its a bidding type system where each week guilds bid whatever they want for the raid targets they desire.

So lets say guild A bids 125 points on VS every week because theyre mainly concerned with wizard epics. Any guild can outbid them if its worth it to them, and points should roll over each week. So guild a starts with 200 and spends 125 on VS. They are left with 75 points to either save or bid on other targets. Each guild gets a weekly allowance of points to either spend or save as they desire. The way I've described it actually seems quite feasible, I would go more into depth but I'm too sleepy.


This way any guild can bid what they feel is fair on raid targets they need, and there really isn't a way to completely monopolize everything. The guild bidding high on VS one week likely won't have enough points to win the bid the following week. This also allows guilds to somewhat "plan" their targets and organize their forces to be able to kill it.


Could also add stipulations; for instance rules against bidding on the same mob every week. Or if you bid on a mob and wipe the next highest bidder gets a shot and you lose half of your points.

[Lazie]

The difference is giving guilds opportunity and giving guilds raid targets. People have already started talking about not wanting hand outs, but wanting the time sink that is raiding due to variance adjusted to be more classic along with these new raiding rules/system (whichever system gets implemented).

In the end, if the huge casual slap in the face that is variance isn't adjusted heavily to be more in line with classic, nothing sort of giving guilds raid targets will help. It's already been stated several hundred times that it's a casual cockblock and only supports huge roster raid guilds in monopolizing the raid content.

Can't argue there. It should be reduced. Not quite sold on it being entirely eliminated. We definitely don't want zones crashing from people sitting on spawn points. I think that a Variance adjustment will have to happen. It would mess up some raids in Velious.

[Yinikren]

Isn't a bidding system, tasslehoff. Guilds will still have to track and engage the mob like normal. FTE and all that jazz. The guild that kills the mob spends however many points it costs do so. The point cost for the mob is the limiting factor - a guild can only spend so many points a week. If they want to clear VP, they clear VP. If they want Trak and a few loot mobs, they do that. If they want an epic mob, they do that. The idea is to stop guilds from doing all 3 while everyone else gets left with nada.

[Tasslehofp99]

Isn't a bidding system, tasslehoff. Guilds will still have to track and engage the mob like normal. FTE and all that jazz. The guild that kills the mob spends however many points it costs do so.

Aye but the way I described lends more competition.

You have guilds bid points on raid mobs, winning bid gets first shot. If a guild bids high their point total goes way down, allowing other guilds to have their turn next.

This way also offers a bit of room for stratedgy, with guilds having to spend their points wisely to maximize the benefit to their guild. Guilds will atill HAVE to track the mob they bid on, because the 2nd highest bidder would get the mob should the first bidding guild wipe or fail to track.


A wipe/failure to track could then result in a loss of half (or more) of their bid, further fostering competition. This way, guilds can buy their shots at mobs while still having to put forth the effort to kill it in a timely manner. Can also add a time limit stipulation; for instance the winning bidder has 1 hour to engage after a pop or they lose their shot, and half the points they bid.

[Yinikren]

True, but the mobs simply aren't up long enough for a bid to take place, though it is an interesting idea I admit. Something like VS, for instance, lasts like 37 seconds after a pop. It would be much easier to track the kill if guilds went after him normally and whoever got the kill had the points deducted. Plus, with my weighted system, its possible there will be less competition for VS then normal, because other epic mobs are the same cost as him and other guilds may have already hit their point limit earlier in the week, or are waiting for a Trak pop, or any other reason.

[Tasslehofp99]

True, but the mobs simply aren't up long enough for a bid to take place, though it is an interesting idea I admit. Something like VS, for instance, lasts like 37 seconds after a pop. It would be much easier to track the kill if guilds went after him normally and whoever got the kill had the points deducted. Plus, with my weighted system, its possible there will be less competition for VS then normal, because other epic mobs are the same cost as him and other guilds may have already hit their point limit earlier in the week.

So you take your idea of giving 200 points to start, with each guild having a weekly point allowance. If a mob they want is in window, they bid what its worth to them. When it spawns they have 1 hour to execute their engage, otherwise the 2nd highest bidder goes.

I think predetermined point values for each mob just isn't appealing to someone who enjoys raiding competition. There has to be some kind of competition for each mob, each week. The bidding system combined with stipulations for engage time, wipes, etc seems like a very attractive system.

If people can stick to the rules and the bidding is out in the open I don't see how this idea can fail. If a guild wants a mob they bid what its worth to them, if they win they get 1 hour to engagr after the mob spawns. Furthermore a wipe, failure to track, or any foul play can be dealt with accordingly through point distribution/penalties.

This means each guild will be responsible for their own tracking, having a proper kill force present, and be forced to forgo certain mobs due to not having enough points to bid on everything they want every week. Would be fairly easy to track using a spreadsheet.

Think of it as a raid dkp bidding system, for guilds.

[Lazie]

Lazie wants his cake and wants to eat it too.

He wants to be included in the lower tier stuff like everyone else, AND he wants to try to monopolize more stuff that the others cant.

Wrong. I am ok with killing anything for fun with friends. I could enjoy a good camp with friends as much as I can killing bosses. I want what Rogean posted the Raid scene accessible for more people. You aren't changing the track a mob/kill a mob mechanic with a point system, so the same 4 guilds that got kills before most recently will just get them more spread out across those guilds. The people who don't or rarely see a raid mob will still rarely and not see a raid mob. I am not saying make it completely easy. I am saying keep the competition tough at the top end and make the rest accessible.

[Yinikren]

I slept on your idea all night, tassle, and I have to admit that the longer I thought about it the better it sounded. Guilds bidding while a mob is in window would eliminate us as a server needing to price out mobs, because mobs become worth whatever a guild is willing to pay to kill it.

The only issue I see is that a bidding war is not competition in the eyes of the majority of the server. They want to race to engage a mob that spawns, and my system allows for that.

Is there a way to combine bidding and the mob race? People won't like that the winner of the bid gets handed a mob attempt without having to track for it... Which many will be for and many against.

[Troubled]

I slept on your idea all night, tassle, and I have to admit that the longer I thought about it the better it sounded. Guilds bidding while a mob is in window would eliminate us as a server needing to price out mobs, because mobs become worth whatever a guild is willing to pay to kill it.

The only issue I see is that a bidding war is not competition in the eyes of the majority of the server. They want to race to engage a mob that spawns, and my system allows for that.

Is there a way to combine bidding and the mob race? People won't like that the winner of the bid gets handed a mob attempt without having to track for it... Which many will be for and many against.

There needs to be a minimum bid if that's the case, or guilds will start bid at 1 pt.

[Yinikren]

For sure, I could see it being 10 point increments. I still see the issue of bidder=winner=not 'racing' for mobs, though.

[JerSar]

10 points to gryffindor!

[baramur]

Lol funny that people still believe casual players should recieve same raiding powers/mobs/loots as hardcore, cause that is so classic. Stop shooting for the moon. Hey lets just make all raid items drop off random zone mobs, i mean why should we have to do any real work. Or better yet every guild gets 20 tokens a week to spawn raid mobs different mobs cost different amount of tokens. I mean thats what we comparing this to right. More sick of noone wanting to compete for raid mo s then i was fighting tmo over them.

[Yinikren]

some crap without forming any counter arguments or other ideas

Thank you for your valued input.

[YendorLootmonkey]

The bidding system, if I am understanding it correctly, eliminates competing for FTE for mobs. It turns competition into an allocation of resources (points) instead of the thrill of mobilization/logging in fully buffed toons and racing for FTE that many players do not want to give up. They will shoot this idea down because there is no fun in it for them. Yes, it does limit the amount of "raid target intake" any particular guild can get, but you've removed competition for mobilization/FTE.

The weighted value bag limit system keeps the competition in play while still preventing a monopoly, which I thought was the ultimate goal of everyone here except those who don't want to compete for mobs. At the beginning of the time period, you have full competition for FTE... the same as we have now. The difference is as you beat guilds to targets, killing those targets starts costing you the opportunity to engage other targets within that time period. That opportunity cost is an opportunity for other guilds to race for FTE that may not have necessarily had that chance before.

Yes, a guild can hypothetically monopolize the 2-3 targets of their choice every week if they want to compete with other guilds for FTE. But think of all the targets that opens up for everyone else when that guild is not actively pursuing them. So the #2 and #3 guilds battle it out. Maybe the #2 guild doesn't prioritize Vox or Naggy, and neither goes guild #3. So that leaves the competition for those mobs open for other guilds. Opportunity which may not exist now.

And what's more is, guilds like Taken who have demonstrated the willpower, resolve, and resources to poopsock Innoruuk for days in order to get earth staffs or ranger emeralds or eyes or whatever can STILL DO SO (more power to them).

This system still does not reward the guilds who do not want to put effort into tracking and mobilizing for a raid target. Nor should it -- that's what people are talking about when saying they want to "avoid a handout system." A target isn't going to be left up for people to kill at their leisure (i.e. a rotation system) because there are far too many players on the server that enjoy competition to let that happen, so lets be realistic about it. But what we can offer is a system that provides competition to those who want it, while still determining a fair way of saying "Okay bro, you got your share for the week/month... time to let others partake."

In my opinion, a week is too short of periodicity... I would prefer a month. The points should be set up so that the top 1-4 guilds will definitely run out of points by the 4th week if they go balls to the wall the first three weeks. If they space out their kills and let some of the lower tier guild get low priority targets, then they might have some points to spend in that 4th week before the points totals get replenished at the first of the month. Otherwise, the lower tier guild get their field day that last week of the month. It should force guilds to race for targets based on "need for the guild" vs. "would like to have" or "just don't want others to have". For those arguing about "a raid guild should not be limited to X targets a week" -- that is the problem with defining the periodicity as a week. Go with a month. And keep in mind there has to be a concept of "okay, we got our fair share... we don't need everything, we can take a break from tracking/poopsocking/whatever... there's always next month."

As far as progression, the opportunity for a lower tier guild to get a Trakanon kill under this system is a bit low, yes. But right now it's zero, along with any of the Kunark dragons, planar gods, etc (except on a full repop day). It is a given that the VP guilds will need to decide whether to continue to go for VP dragons or try to still kill Trak/VS. Do the pre-VP guilds fight for Trak/VS/CT or do they settle for Sev/Gore/Talendor/Inny? And when Velious pops (points totals are raised for all guilds at that point to compensate for additional targets available)... those guilds who have been in VP are going to be expending their points on Velious targets. The now VP-capable guilds have to decide whether to spend their points on VP or Velious. Suddenly the guilds that were stuck at just Kunark dragons can either go do Trak/VS with the goal of getting into VP, or go try competing in Velious. Some old world stuff may get left up for hours. The guilds naturally progress to other targets based on guild needs because their points allocations forces them to make those decisions, and punishes them for blowing their points on older content because they won't have the points at the end of the time period for kills on dragons that drop ST keys or whatever.

No, there's not going to be instant gratification on a Tier 3 or 4 guild getting Trak kills until Velious. But if you don't create these limits and allow the competitive guilds the opportunity to cockblock, you won't have an opportunity for a Tier 3 or 4 guild to get Trak kills in Velious because the Tier 2 guilds will still be playing catch up themselves.

[baramur]

I have posted my ideas 10 times in 10 other threads. You want no monopoly then simplify it.

1st week of the month top 2 guilds will not engage in any raiding outside vp. I believe the remaining guilds can compete with each other fine.

I would even go as far as saying Guilds can only kill Fay, Sev, Gore, Tal 1 time per month.

Try this for a few months then adjust if its not working. The other 3 weeks could be normal raiding with a 2 hour engage if you were last guild to kill or whatever.

[Yinikren]

I've seen ideas like this, but I don't think its fair telling the rest of the server that after their week of raiding is done they should go on vacation for 3 weeks until the first of next month.

Much easier IMO to limit mob intake on a weekly schedule so other guilds can start competing for pieces of the mob pie.

[quido]

No thanks.

[Yinikren]

Thanks for your input, knew you of all people wouldn't like it Jeremy. :) Any option where your guild isn't getting 80% of the mobs simply isn't an option to you, is it?

[baramur]

I've seen ideas like this, but I don't think its fair telling the rest of the server that after their week of raiding is done they should go on vacation for 3 weeks until the first of next month.

Much easier IMO to limit mob intake on a weekly schedule so other guilds can start competing for pieces of the mob pie.

You mean the rest of the server can stop trying for 3 weeks. You act like its a sin for guilds to try to compete for loot. This is taking 25 percent of the loot right off the bat out of the hands of the top 2 guilds on the server who are atm controlling 97 percent of the loot. Why can't guild compete for 3 weeks with the big guilds??? Why do you keep saying vacation???

[Yinikren]

If guilds have had success competing for the last two years with the top guilds... we wouldn't be having this conversation because there wouldn't have been a raid monopoly.

Hence the vacation statement, because fixing one week of raiding a month doesn't fix the server.

I am 100% for competition of mobs across the server. I am 100% against a server fatass eating too much of the mob pie.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Why can't guild compete for 3 weeks with the big guilds??

You know why. Because the extremes at which competition exists for mobs against the big guilds currently requires Taken to maintain a non-stop poopsock of Innoruuk over his entire spawn window if they want him. I know my guild doesn't find that appealing at all. Can a representative of Taken please describe the toll that is taking on the people in the guild that are doing that?

[Yinikren]

Can a representative of Taken please describe the toll that is taking on the people in the guild that are doing that?

Speaking from Taken, the simple fact that anyone has to poopsock a mob for 4 straight days just to have a chance at engaging it before TMO or IB/FE is absolute garbage and not conducive to friendly raiding on the server.

This idea fixes that because it limits what the big guilds can kill on a weekly bases and lets more guilds into the raiding scene.

It doesn;t stop a guild from socking Inny if they really want it. It DOES stop a guild from claiming its 12th kill that week while everyone else gets left with wasted time.

They pick: epic mobs, loot mobs, or key mobs.

[khanable]

Point system. Cap a guild at 25% of the non-vp raid mobs per month.

TMO can whine and complain about effort all they want; they've put in their 'effort' and profited from it immensely over 2 years now.

We're starting new. You won't need to put in as much effort. So that point is moot and I'm sick of hearing it.

Take your competition to VP.

[baramur]

Ok i concede i like the point system, check out my idea and see what you think yin

[Yinikren]

I looked, I like it a lot. Some of the points costs are off on both our ideas, but the server can agree on a fair price I am sure to keep several guilds in the running. Both ideas foster competition and I like that. Neither idea hands mobs to guilds.

[-Catherin-]

You know why. Because the extremes at which competition exists for mobs against the big guilds currently requires Taken to maintain a non-stop poopsock of Innoruuk over his entire spawn window if they want him. I know my guild doesn't find that appealing at all. Can a representative of Taken please describe the toll that is taking on the people in the guild that are doing that?

If you try to engage Innoruuk on equal footing with the top dogs, (aka port up at the same time or even before them), they simply train up to Inny, then train Inny and everything else back down to the ZI to kill him there. (complete and utter BS tactic btw and should not be allowed)

It doesn't matter that they may wipe in the process, because the resulting train will wipe all other competition too. While said competition is trying to recover corpses, they continue to pull Inny with everything in his path down to ZI. Once again if they wipe it doesn't matter, because it wipes those now trying to recover their corpses. The train is the insurance policy so that if they screw up on the engage, nobody else can kill him either.

Spent close to 4 hours one Saturday morning just trying to recover our corpses at the ZI because said top dogs could not risk anyone else getting a shot and kept training Innoruuk to the ZI. The multiple wipes made it pretty obvious that they couldn't kill Inny this way with their current force, but they kept at it until we gave up on even our own corpse recovery. We can't win Game of Trains. We were not even a threat anymore. We just wanted to loot our bodies and leave. But they would not stop

That led to the current environment of how we get Inny. There is no way that we can compete otherwise. I personally do a lot of the tracking up there and a server environment that has made these kind of measures necessary is BS. Im glad things are hopefully changing.

[jaybone]

so what happens when 5 more raiding guilds come along? Were going on a 3 year delay for an expansion that was out 8 months after Kunark. This server needs wiped and started over.

[justin2090]

so what happens when 5 more raiding guilds come along? Were going on a 3 year delay for an expansion that was out 8 months after Kunark. This server needs wiped and started over.

This would help if everyone wanted to level up again. I been here for a year and highest lvl is 58. I don't think I could start all over.

[Yinikren]

The system accounts for that - guilds that are serious about raiding can wait a predetermined (by the server) amount of time to be eligible for points per week. This prevents splinters from big guilds or the bob guild from showing up out of nowhere to fuck with raids. They wanna raid, they join a guild or they earn it.

[justin2090]

I think epic related mobs need to be rotated and shared. That would pretty much nix the animosity between casual and hardcore. New people to the sever usually ask about epics and how easy/hard they are to attain. Get money or live epicless is usually the answer.

If you want to sock, camp alts/mains at targets, or fill guild bank with fat loots then your not really a casual guild anymore. After all this whole thing is about how casuals can't commit the time to be competitive but still want to experience classic eq (motto on p99 home page)


I was thinking to myself the other day and I came to ask myself.. Are we providing this server to give people the arena to compete to such bitter extremes that it has resorted to taking every absolute measure to be victorious, or are we here to provide a classic Everquest experience for everyone to enjoy?


This also applies to hardcore guilds as well. Hardcore guilds wouldn't enjoy a casual approach to the game. The epic mobs would give the casuals roughly 50% and the remainder would be the hardcore guilds 50%. Also, I'd be willing to bet 95% of the mains in TMO have their epic which leads to..


This means working together to figure out a compromise when racing for mobs, and working with smaller guilds to let them have a chance at mobs you don't absolutely need for gearing main characters.


Ultimately your going to have to share mobs. The question is which mobs do you share?

[Tyym]

I think epic related mobs need to be rotated and shared. That would pretty much nix the animosity between casual and hardcore. New people to the sever usually ask about epics and how easy/hard they are to attain. Get money or live epicless is usually the answer.

If you want to sock, camp alts/mains at targets, or fill guild bank with fat loots then your not really a casual guild anymore. After all this whole thing is about how casuals can't commit the time to be competitive but still want to experience classic eq (motto on p99 home page)

This also applies to hardcore guilds as well. Hardcore guilds wouldn't enjoy a casual approach to the game. The epic mobs would give the casuals roughly 50% and the remainder would be the hardcore guilds 50%. Also, I'd be willing to bet 95% of the mains in TMO have their epic which leads to..

I have an idea. Why don't we all also sign up for Obama care and go on welfare because 10% of the people who work their asses off make enough to foot the bill for everyone else who doesn't want to work for what they get.

Morphius

[justin2090]

I have an idea. Why don't we all also sign up for Obama care and go on welfare because 10% of the people who work their asses off make enough to foot the bill for everyone else who doesn't want to work for what they get.

Morphius

Clearly a basement dweller here. No one with an actual life can commit to raid mobs. We're not 14 years old and in high school anymore. You need to reread Rogeans post or did you fail reading comprehension thanks to classic EQ. Just in case let me explain it differently for you..

The admins... are tired... of your bullshit.

[Yinikren]

Morphius is always going to be a bit angry about these sort of agreements because they don't benefit his guild. I wouldn't pay much attention.

The idea behind my point system is that epic mobs would cost enough that a guild couldn't down all of them in a week. I think its the best option for getting multiple guilds to engage epic mobs that doesn't involve a rotation/hand me out, which no one really wants. We still want to compete for mobs, just limit what the biggest guilds can take each week.

[Tyym]

Your right Justin, what was I thinking. Ill just go kill myself.

[Amirite]

this is not a bad idea..

the points (as stated) would need to be looked at and agreed upon.

but i do not see why this would not work..

clean up this thread of all these repetitive replys from people who did not read it..
or repost it with a poll imo.

[Yinikren]

<3 I would but people will just fuck it again I am sure. It doesn't suit TMO's "80% mob rule or we quit" so of course they are against it, but a lot of us casual scum like this idea of regulating mobs.

[Yinikren]

It's because we call TMO out for what it is and we don't fall for your spin-doctoring, and you hate that. It's okay, we understand. :) Here's some more calling out for you:

We get it. The only thing wrong with the points system is it limits TMO after their points are spent for the week/month. Because so long as everyone has points to spend, it is full competition for FTE on the mobs just the way you guys want it to be. You know, the "competition" you all say you want. It's there so long as you don't blow through all your points trying to dominate everything, which is the exact issue Rogean wants us to solve. This solves it.

The problem you have is when your cup runneth dry and other guilds still have points to spend. You are too afraid that some guild you deem not "worthy" might get something you would rather go to either yourselves or another guild. And that, my friend, is just pure greed speaking. Admit it. Otherwise, what exactly is the problem with TMO sitting out a few mobs after they have gone after what mobs they wanted, killed them, and spent all of their points for the period? Are you THAT seriously afraid of losing pixels after 2 years of getting 80% of the non-VP content and mostly having VP to yourselves? Unbelievable.

I am putting this is my thread as well simply because Yendor is the voice of fucking reason. This system doesn't spoon feed mobs retards. You get to compete for what you want just like you always do. This entire system just makes sure you can't KEEP GOING.

I would also like to point out that, while I like Loraens idea, it doesn't bode as well with me because it still gives you fuckheads 3 weeks of uncontested raiding which is what got us in this shithole. This system favors no guild and that's why you don't like it. You think this is a numbers fucking game where #of kills equals your Epeen size? Then kill cheaper targets so you get more of them.

[Clark]

No to point system

[Ravager]

No to point system

Elaborate.

[radditsu]

Elaborate.

I am guessing not enough raids

[Ravager]

This is probably the fairest proposal, though in my opinion the points should be distributed monthly or bi-weekly, instead of weekly to account for extended windows in the event they're left in.

[Ravager]

I am guessing not enough raids

90% of the server has this problem, that's why we're here.

[radditsu]

This is probably the fairest proposal, though in my opinion the points should be distributed monthly or bi-weekly, instead of weekly to account for extended windows in the event they're left in.

Monthly evens out the spawn rates. Weekly could have a ton of variance issues that would even out over time.


Still not a fan of weighted points. All raids should count the same...as they all have loot and epics. Making vs epic drops cost more than a pally or war or bard epic is meh.

[Yinikren]

All epic mobs cost the same except for scale mobs and maestro in my system. Mobs are different value to encourage choice - you give up something to take something. If point costs were all the same guilds would kill the same 4 mobs each week.

[radditsu]

All epic mobs cost the same except for scale mobs and maestro in my system. Mobs are different value to encourage choice - you give up something to take something. If point costs were all the same guilds would kill the same 4 mobs each week.

Yes the more important ones for progression. That is my point. Guilds would have shots at end of month for trak teeth. It promotes racing and competition.

[Shinko]

why cant you guys just bat phone and log in quicker? we need **Raid Discussion** Sub Fourms For Officer/Leaders of Raiding Guilds

[Autotune]

why cant you guys just bat phone and log in quicker? we need **Raid Discussion** Sub Fourms For Officer/Leaders of Raiding Guilds

lol, need a discussion forum to block everyone's voice.

[Yinikren]

Can't log in and assemble when there's alts at the mob spawn point, lol

Also grats us on VS.

[sanforce]

A point system is overly complex, just instill a rotation if we collectively decide to go full retard as a raiding community.

[radditsu]

Its math. Sorry if math is hard

[radditsu]

why cant you guys just bat phone and log in quicker? we need **Raid Discussion** Sub Fourms For Officer/Leaders of Raiding Guilds

Because batphones are stupid and dumb and it is lowest common denominator neckbeard.

[jpetrick]

It's not a bidding system. Why does everyone think it is? This is the best proposal i've seen so far.

[Yinikren]

I'd like to think its the most fair proposal because it doesn't favor any guild. Guilds still have to work for mobs and compete like they want to, there's just a hard cap to limit the rampage. Elite guilds will still probably get first pick of the most valuable targets, so all they lose are mobs they shouldn't be killing anyway. Middle guilds like Taken and BDA can get more than one mob attempt in a week without having to focus their entire guild resources to block out one of the elite guilds. Guilds that don't want to track, like A team, can go after targets that spawn but no one wants to immediately spend the points on, if they are holding out for another target. Not every mob is downed the second it spawns.

The elite guilds think they are entitled to more mobs because they compete harder or some shit. For some reason its a numbers game. It doesn't matter that the targets they've been monopolizing are more valuable than stuff the rest of the server has been managing to kill - they simply feel like they should be able to kill MORE. Its evident in a few of the replies I've gotten from TMO stating they would 'simply quit' if they got limited to 4-5 mobs a week. I find this humorous - holy shit, get a hobby. Most of the other guilds are averaging a mob a week, if that. My guild can put in several days of combined tracking time and not have anything to show for it.

Any hardcores that we would actually lose to an idea like this would be replaced threefold by 'casual scum' who've already quit because of the raid scene here. Hell, this idea even helps the server population.
This system favors nobody, which is why TMO and FE will hate it. Its also why the rest of the server is more ambivalent towards it.

[Ravager]

This system favors nobody, which is why TMO and FE will hate it. Its also why the rest of the server is more ambivalent towards it.

It does favor the people who can mobilize faster for the more desired mobs. It just stops TMO from leap-frogging and training at Vox while another guild is clearing ice giants (yes, they do this -- it's funny when they wipe). And it will pit pretty even competition against each other for mobs on all levels.

This is the fairest proposal while keeping things competative. The only people going full retard are TMO because dey terk der merbs! They'll never agree to anything that doesn't give them the majority or they can't manipulate until they get the majority. Good thing Rogean gave them a minority vote.

[Retti_]

idea?

sig.

[Buriedpast]

This OP, I love it. 100% back it personally.

With 175 points per guild, works out best for fairness and reward for those of is already in a dominant position through hard work and dedication (TMO IB FE).

And variance taken down to just +- 12 hrs on all mobs except sky

And at least 1 monthly simulated repop at a random time (including VP) with no contribution to the bag limit

And VP capable guilds (TMO, FeIB) having to pay less for trak (say 25) to compensate for the fact we are keyed, and give incentive to remain VP as "exclusive" whilst not making us uncompetitive for other mobs.

And I think it is the most solid, reliable, EASY TO POLICE, and only one small coding change.

It's easy to understand.

It's easy to modify into velious.

And any other guilds want to be part, they have to be a guild for 30 days, and attain 100 points of kills in a simulated repop situation, for instance.

One single rule exists, you don't Poopsock with a named capable raid force except in planes of fear, and hate where one is acceptable only of the zone is being actively pulled with a minimum of 15 rmobs per hour kill rate, and then the raid force must log to just a tracker. For example.

Pooping anything else = a punishment. Definition of a Poopsock to be vague and grey and never up for argument. Just don't be fucks and lawyers.

[SwordNboard]

Keep variance, decrease timers drastically, whatever guild gets whatever target cannot get that target for 1 week. Repeat.

[Buriedpast]

I'm IB, for reference.

Not that it should matter.

But this is, I'll say again, just excellent. The numbers need attention, but the basic principle and execution are so simple and easy to police.

For others, this is the kind of thing Rogean wants.
He doesn't want a rotation.
He doesn't want two guilds alternating 12 of 15 raid mobs.
He doesn't want petitions about convoluted shit.
He doesn't want poopsocking
He doesn't want huge tracking and extended variance windows
He doesn't want to have to code in policing for stupid raid rules.
He doesn't want to have his staffs time wasted by endgame guild crap. The 10/90 rule.

This is by far the most stable and fair I can see to meet his requests and requirements, to limit Gm interaction, and to make things absolutely white and black... Except poopsocking: just don't.

[Buriedpast]

Keep variance, decrease timers drastically, whatever guild gets whatever target cannot get that target for 1 week. Repeat.

So you want two guilds to alternate almost every mob in the game? Because if I kill trak, and can't for 7 days, you can bet I'll be camping that toon out elsewhere to secure yet another mob.

Bag limit FTW. 10 traks in a row, who cares, as everyone else knows I can only go for like 3 mobs now tops per week.

And this means VP guilds allow far more mobs for non VP guilds.

[Yinikren]

Thanks for your input motec. I am glad you like the system. As mentioned, point costs, etc do need work, but every other point you have mentioned is spot on with what I tried to make this plan to be.

Only thing I am worried about is Trak pricing for VP keys. If is price is dropped, he is easier to fit into a guilds point limit for the purpose of keeping other people out of VP. Trak, on top of dropping keys, also drops some of the best BPs in the game and, on top of that, has a quicker respawn timer than many mobs. IMO, he should be a bit more expensive so guilds would have to give up something to keep him permanently down. This gives more points for you guys to spend in VP and allows more guilds to start keying as we near the end of Velious.

[Reguiy]

I've gone back and forth on this whole subject. At first I was against a system like this, as I thought it would be too complicated. After reading most the brainstorming posts, I've come to the conclusion that the point system such as this is the only system that will work.

A rotation is just unfeasible. There would be faar too many guilds in the rotation already. Then new guilds would need to get a spot in the rotation as well, and who would decide which mobs they take, how they get in, how to plug them into the rotation, etc? Also, it leaves no room for competition. Essentially it would be free handouts and each guild would only get to kill about 2 mobs a week regardless of any competition edge they had.

The system we're currently using in the raid scene also wont work. It's far better than what we had before, but it's going to just end up with 2 guilds way on top, and maybe a 3rd getting the scraps. It was a good idea to get the ball rolling on a revamp of the raid scene, and it has worked while tmo hasn't been in the picture, but it's just not ideal in the long term.

There's more, but a couple of the last ideas would be a tier'd system where some weeks guilds could get a shot, and other weeks the lower end guilds could compete and practice. This wont work as most the time it is just going to the be exactly same shitshow, which is what the staff is trying to prevent.

And finally some of the last ideas are things that involve agreeing to no poopsocking or code which makes for racing to mobs instead of logging out, or just changing the game mechanics in general for when mobs spawn. There might be some brilliant coding solution to all our problems, but so far it seems like there'd be so many loop holes in those systems it would almost be impossible to implement.

So back to the weighted point system of the OP. It's very simple. Which I think is key for any raid system revamp. This system also allows for competition and racing to mobs that are high on your priority list, which I think is also key. And if the point system is adjusted well, then it wouldn't be one or two guilds completely monopolizing content. It would create a classic atmosphere where the top top guilds would get prime mobs, and the lower end guilds would compete for the mobs on the lower end of the spectrum.

Someone let me know if I've missed any raiding systems that have been brought up. But I feel this system is by far the best idea (once fine tuned, of course).

[falkun]

I like the concept!

As for adjusting the points-per-guild or wondering what would happen when a new guild enters, use a formula:
(c*M)/G=P

c: some constant percentage, which controls the amount of farming a guild can do over "their fair share."
M: total number of raid mob points per time period (700 is the number floating around this thread)
G: number of raid guilds receiving points.
P: The number of raid points each guild receives.

I would also simplify the points. Currently you have two tiers, 50 and 25 points. Simplify and set one tier to "2" and the other tier to "1". This makes the rest of the equation simpler and you'll have fewer remainder points in P. For instance you'd get 7.63 raid points (P) allowing you to kill 7 one-point mobs instead of 146 raid points which really only allows you to kill 125 raid points worth of mobs. Or you could account for this by adjusting the constant, c, depending on the number of raid guilds.

Also, this formula would deter guilds from fracturing into micro-guilds.

Finally, this does little to address PetitionQuesting. It will reduce petitions in those less desirable races, but when TMO, FE, IB, and BDA decide they all want to spend points on that one PD, VS, or Trak, Rogean & Co. are gonna have a bad day. Or if too many points remain (because too many extra have been handed out), then some guilds might decide to go after that last Sev before midnight on the last of the month because, "otherwise the points are wasted." I don't have much to offer on that point, but I'll continue to think about it.

[Yinikren]

Thank you for your input Falkun. My thinking (Not sure if it is correct) is that there *may* be less in the way of player confrontations because there *may* be mobs that are less contested. Guilds get pissed when TMO or IBFE kills Trak, VP, Gore, Sev, Talendor, the list goes on, never ending. I think guilds would be more willing to mitigate and agree on things if they know each guild is capped on mob intake, so they don't keep losing the next mobs to the same guilds.

Two problems I still see are variance needs to be reduced or eliminated for this to work. No variance then = poopsocking by default, even if the competition for each mob is lessened.

[falkun]

If there's no variance, then everyone will be at every spawn, the dragon will either wipe the raids (lol @ 4 guild Trak, lag FTW) or one guild will roll the lucky dice. Then guilds will slowly stop showing up as the week progresses and their bag limit is reached. I can't believe I'm saying this, but you'd still need at least a little bit of variance to prevent all the guilds keeping raid forces on spawn at the time of the spawn. This is mostly applicable to highly contested spawns like Inny, Trak, and VS (CT's mechanics make this a bit more difficult).

[radditsu]

If there's no variance, then everyone will be at every spawn, the dragon will either wipe the raids (lol @ 4 guild Trak, lag FTW) or one guild will roll the lucky dice. Then guilds will slowly stop showing up as the week progresses and their bag limit is reached. I can't believe I'm saying this, but you'd still need at least a little bit of variance to prevent all the guilds keeping raid forces on spawn at all times. This is mostly applicable to highly contested spawns like Inny, Trak, and VS (CT's mechanics make this a bit more difficult).

The whole point system is predicated on still having variance. No variance = no racing. It is the only solution i have seen that says " WE GOTTA HAVE REPOPS" or "LETS DO A ROTATION THAT NOBODY WILL AGREE TOO"

It's the only solution that can be used with the server "as it is" and requires nothing but a n excel document

[falkun]

I think the point system will work with smaller variance (+/- 4-12 hours instead of 48), but zero variance will not benefit this system. But then I don't see variance ever being completely removed, as it also benefits P99's worldwide population to have pops at all times of day.

[DrKvothe]

I'm IB, for reference.

Not that it should matter.

But this is, I'll say again, just excellent. The numbers need attention, but the basic principle and execution are so simple and easy to police.

For others, this is the kind of thing Rogean wants.
He doesn't want a rotation.
He doesn't want two guilds alternating 12 of 15 raid mobs.
He doesn't want petitions about convoluted shit.
He doesn't want poopsocking
He doesn't want huge tracking and extended variance windows
He doesn't want to have to code in policing for stupid raid rules.
He doesn't want to have his staffs time wasted by endgame guild crap. The 10/90 rule.

This is by far the most stable and fair I can see to meet his requests and requirements, to limit Gm interaction, and to make things absolutely white and black... Except poopsocking: just don't.

Well said.

Keep in mind that Velious is coming, and that a drastically changed server will require redefined raid rules. When velious gets here, there will be content that FEIB and TMO can handle but nobody else can. Should they be penalized for not letting the raid mobs sit around unengaged? Of course not.

I think that in the relatively (compared to the age of this server) short time until Velious, the point system is simple and effective enough. It also should be fairly simple for guild leaders to hash out the details before Rogean wtfpwns everyone for being asshats.

[falkun]

Winga, that's the point of the system: if you are doing more rewarding content, you are leaving less rewarding content for others. But if people wanted to address your comment, a simple rule stating "no bag points are spent if the mob is killed after X hours" would cover that base.

[Yinikren]

I agree with the variance issues - there needs to be some, but a 4 day window is probably unnecessary and would fuck up a weekly schedule. Removing extended windows would help, and give all the 7 day mobs a 5-7 day spawn time for people to watch for. This way nothing can extend past a week and fuck up the system. If anything, the occasional week where VS or another highly contested spawn would end up popping twice a week would help out the guilds who haven't capped their points by tuesday by killing mobs as they spawn.

I like Falkun's idea of remodelling the points. I am thinking each guild gets something like 5 points a week. If PD, Trak, and Nodrop epic mobs are 2 points each, and everything else is 1, then that gives a guild the ability to kill 5 loot mobs, 3 loot mobs and a key/epic, or two keys/epics and a loot mob each week.

I am glad for all of the positive discussion towards this idea. If there is a disadvantage to it, I don't see it.

[Scoresby]

I like the idea and think it does settle a lot of the concern from the staff, however in the interest of keeping it simple why not make all kills worth the same. So each guild gets 5 kills a week, does it matter that easy targets are equal to Trak/VS/PD? I think not. This simply means the top tier guild on the server gets the lion's share of loot (i.e. prime targets) and you can bet your 4th through 6th guilds won't fill out their limit and might be lucky to get a kill or two from the least significant targets.

This change at least keeps the system very simple so you don't need to debate what should be worth specific points and let the desirability of the target dictate whether a guild spends their points on it or not. The only thing left open is how many kills you get a week (4-6 seem like arguable values for the current content) to create a spread amongst raiding guilds.

All-in-all, the main concept here is a big step in the right direction in my opinion.

-Stinkie

[Garguren]

I don't think the variance is a absolute terrible thing, i would just like to see it something more manageable. Say a 1 day +/-. This still makes it a bit random so you cant just be sitting in place when you know its gonna spawn (say exactly 96 hours after last death).

[Utmost]

Through all this I just don't understand that if another guild wants to kill a mob that some guild has on lock down, why don't they, if need be, level alts, camp them at the mobs, buffed, have a tracker watch for the spawn, text guildies when it spawns, log on and kill it? I'm pretty sure that sentence is grammatically correct.

[Yinikren]

The entire point of the scoring system being weighted is so that guilds have to pick what targets are most useful to them that week. Making all mobs one point each not only ensures that the 10 most valuable mobs are on TMO/IBFE rotation, but only allows 3 1/2 guilds to raid (19 targets).

Having some mobs cost more than others makes the cost a factor in deciding what mobs each guild is going to contest.

[Scoresby]

I get that, just think it happens anyway and doesn't really add much except some added complexity to the system.

[DrKvothe]

Winga, that's the point of the system: if you are doing more rewarding content, you are leaving less rewarding content for others. But if people wanted to address your comment, a simple rule stating "no bag points are spent if the mob is killed after X hours" would cover that base.

Probably require a lot of policing and enforcement by the GMs. Another option is to just adjust the point values for the most difficult content. Rather than chewing through, say, half of a guild's points for content nobody else can complete, it could just cost them a quarter of their points or whatever. And that brings me back to the point of my previous post, which is that the point system is remarkably simple to manipulate to rebalance any issues seen as unfair by the community.

[Yinikren]

It isn't overly complex I think. Mobs are worth 1 point or 2. It's easy to rebalance based on what works.

[Yinikren]

Bump for a non-retarded raid proposal. Mobs for all 2014.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Yinikren, is Taken generally on board with this sort of system (maybe not exactly, but in spirit)? Just curious.

[Buriedpast]

Absolutely NO other raiding system proposed by anyone on this server so far, is comparable to this for simplicity.

[Buriedpast]

Finally, this does little to address PetitionQuesting. It will reduce petitions in those less desirable races, but when TMO, FE, IB, and BDA decide they all want to spend points on that one PD, VS, or Trak, Rogean & Co. are gonna have a bad day. .

What drugs are you on?

Why does 2 or 3 guilds going after a mob make it a shitfight? We are trying to change an entire servers behaviour to rules and rule lawyering and sense of entitlement. Stop thinking like people cant change.

VP is CSR/PNP, and as such PD would simply be FTE.

And if there is a few petitions, then rogean can suspend us for a month until we learn to play nice. Simply, TMO, FE, IB must learn to play nice. If we dont play nice, by using /random, or anything else, then disband and ban people.

I am sick of raiding bullshit, FRAPS, petitions. There should be none, and if we cant handle disputes with /random and just walk away, then whats the point of trying to play nice. In the meantime, if disputes happen between FE and TMO, or Taken and BDA, etc etc, then I think everyone should be suspended for not being a fucking adult.

[Autotune]

Absolutely NO other raiding system proposed by anyone on this server so far, is comparable to this for simplicity.

Give every guild a weekly allowance (certain amount) let's say 100.

Give every raid target a value based on demand, let's say PD is valued at 50.

Any guild that takes out PD is now left with only 50 raid allowance.

Then just go from there. CT/Inny/VS/ could all be set at 30. VP dragons (except PD) could be 10s along with Kunark world dragons. Draco could be a 15. Vox/Naggy/maestro 10s.

DKP yo!

IDK, something like that could easily be tracked and gives some weekly planning by each guild.


I kinda proposed it awhile back lol.

[Yinikren]

Yendor, I wish I had a better answer for you. But I am not a taken spokesperson unfortunately.

I've posted in my forums and I've gotten reasonable support both here and on the forums from my own guild members, but I have not received endorsement from leadership as to if they have seriously considered this idea, if that makes sense.

Without sounding over the top, I would say that the majority of the guild is on board with a proposal like mine.

Hell, at this point I can comfortably say that the majority of the server not in TMO/FE is on board with a proposal like mine. There's no bias and no drawbacks and the only people who don't like it are those who are having mobs removed from them regardless.

Motec, coming from IB, endorses this as the fairest proposal. Coming from the other side of the fence, that is huge to me.

[YendorLootmonkey]

No problem... I understand :) Keep fighting the good fight!

[Yinikren]

Last I heard, the idea was being used but not completely, I.e a convoluted mess like FE's proposal. We need a weekly system like this to have a decent chance at a clean raid scene on P99.

Is BDA on board with my idea, or a version of it?

Are any other guilds for this kind of idea? Europa, Divinity, A team, Azure Guard?

Edit: I can't reply to my guild boards on my phone at work, but I am seeing more and more support from my guild as time goes on. It is also ubiquitous amongst the guild that we do not agree with FEs proposal at all. I am sure you guys don't either.

[DrKvothe]

I'm not here to speak on behalf of BDA, but I think this system makes a lot of sense. IMO, weekly system is way too restrictive with variance. Need a monthly system. Still, same basic backbone.

Need guild council too that determines which guilds are ineligible for raiding. This would handle splinter guilds attempting to bypass the rules.

[Frieza_Prexus]

I'm not here to speak on behalf of BDA, but I think this system makes a lot of sense. IMO, weekly system is way too restrictive with variance. Need a monthly system. Still, same basic backbone.

The variance will even out over the long run. Because the average spawn is just over 7 days, any hands off periods can be adjusted to make up for the lengthened average spawn times.

Need guild council too that determines which guilds are ineligible for raiding. This would handle splinter guilds attempting to bypass the rules.

Rules should be enforced by neutral parties. Guild councils that wield authority are a bad idea. People are chafing at TMO and FE's proposal. How will they react when TMO and FE are making decisions on their behalf?

It's a disaster in the making.

[Yinikren]

Weekly system evens out mob intake better than a monthly system would. Much better to make guilds pick their priority targets during each week then to immediately blow their points in the first two weeks and then have to go on vacation the rest of the month.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Weekly system evens out mob intake better than a monthly system would. Much better to make guilds pick their priority targets during each week then to immediately blow their points in the first two weeks and then have to go on vacation the rest of the month.

That's actually the benefit of measuring on a monthly basis. There should be some scarcity in points during that last week so guilds that might not otherwise have a shot can then spend their points because other guilds reached their "bag limit" because they went balls to the wall.

You want guilds to choose between slow and steady all month and just grabbing what they need (leaving targets up for other guilds), or choosing to grab whatever they can whenever they can and then risk not being able to spend points later in the month, or gamble and conserve their points until the end of the month when there would presumably be less competition.

You can't have a mix of strategies like that over just a week's time, in my opinion.

[Yinikren]

That's actually the benefit of measuring on a monthly basis. There should be some scarcity in points during that last week so guilds that might not otherwise have a shot can then spend their points because other guilds reached their "bag limit" because they went balls to the wall.

You want guilds to choose between slow and steady all month and just grabbing what they need (leaving targets up for other guilds), or choosing to grab whatever they can whenever they can and then risk not being able to spend points later in the month, or gamble and conserve their points until the end of the month when there would presumably be less competition.

You can't have a mix of strategies like that over just a week's time, in my opinion.

True, its not a bad idea. I just wouldn't like to be in A teams boat and have to wait until the end of the month to raid. If guilds spend their points early in the week, then guilds like A team can step up and claim more mobs near the end, though I guess they could do that anyway if mobs are less contested.

I'd be fine with 20 points a week, PD/Trak/ Nodrop epics 2 points each, everything else 1 point. Can easily be adjusted too for Velious, can make ST key mobs 5 points or something and the cap could jump to 50.

[Tayy]

How about introducing some sort of decrease of the mobs agreed upon point total if the mob has been up for over X number of hours. I'll provide an example but I'll just use numbers I pull out of my ass until something is defined.

For instance TMO has used 125 of their 150 points for the week. VS is worth 50 points thus they are unable to kill him. VS is still sitting in his lair 2 hours after he has spawned (confirmed). Once the 2 hour mark is reached he is now worth 25 points total as he has not been contested by other guilds with the remaining 50 points it would cost to kill him.

Braemen/Raevin - Taken

[Yinikren]

How about introducing some sort of decrease of the mobs agreed upon point total if the mob has been up for over X number of hours. I'll provide an example but I'll just use numbers I pull out of my ass until something is defined.

For instance TMO has used 125 of their 150 points for the week. VS is worth 50 points thus they are unable to kill him. VS is still sitting in his lair 2 hours after he has spawned (confirmed). Once the 2 hour mark is reached he is now worth 25 points total as he has not been contested by other guilds with the remaining 50 points it would cost to kill him.

Braemen/Raevin - Taken

I wouldn't have an issue with something like this.

[radditsu]

How about introducing some sort of decrease of the mobs agreed upon point total if the mob has been up for over X number of hours. I'll provide an example but I'll just use numbers I pull out of my ass until something is defined.

For instance TMO has used 125 of their 150 points for the week. VS is worth 50 points thus they are unable to kill him. VS is still sitting in his lair 2 hours after he has spawned (confirmed). Once the 2 hour mark is reached he is now worth 25 points total as he has not been contested by other guilds with the remaining 50 points it would cost to kill him.

Braemen/Raevin - Taken

Overcomplication is not what you need. You need to reward big guilds to do big things. For instance..hosting a vs open raid for extra points...use those two hours to get it together and have an open roll...I am going to do some work after this madden game

[sanforce]

I'm for this proposal if alt guilds are allowed and given an equal share of the points.

[Yinikren]

I'm sure you are. Good thing we have already accounted for that.

[Buriedpast]

Probably require a lot of policing and enforcement by the GMs. Another option is to just adjust the point values for the most difficult content. Rather than chewing through, say, half of a guild's points for content nobody else can complete, it could just cost them a quarter of their points or whatever. And that brings me back to the point of my previous post, which is that the point system is remarkably simple to manipulate to rebalance any issues seen as unfair by the community.

It is. Community managed with zero gm involvement.

Love it


How about introducing some sort of decrease of the mobs agreed upon point total if the mob has been up for over X number of hours. I'll provide an example but I'll just use numbers I pull out of my ass until something is defined.

For instance TMO has used 125 of their 150 points for the week. VS is worth 50 points thus they are unable to kill him. VS is still sitting in his lair 2 hours after he has spawned (confirmed). Once the 2 hour mark is reached he is now worth 25 points total as he has not been contested by other guilds with the remaining 50 points it would cost to kill him.

Braemen/Raevin - Taken

Yep. Simple

Perhaps not with VP, or we would leave VP mobs up for 6 days.

[Yinikren]

Super simple to enforce. That's the best part about it.

[Erati]

how does the point system change the atmosphere of the raid scene any?

to me still looks like when 3-5 guilds wanna spend their points on the same target there will be problems and we are back using the toxic behaviors that Rogean and Co specifically said they want to see gone.

something like this would have been great to use before 1 guild monopolized the content for 2 years...

[Yinikren]

No raid system ever is going to fix toxic behavior on the server as far as things like petitionquest goes. That's something the guilds will have to do on their own, lest Sirken's banhammer comes down.

This proposal spreads mobs around to the point that there won't be a one or two guild monopoly, which is the main issue Rogean is after. Guilds will still have to play nice on their own.

[Erati]

nothing gets spread out when the same guilds spend their points the same way each time

leaving the dracos, maestros, gore, tal up for the casual scum lol

[radditsu]

They are not buying on the front end. They have a chance to lose the race and then use points elsewhere.

[radditsu]

nothing gets spread out when the same guilds spend their points the same way each time

leaving the dracos, maestros, gore, tal up for the casual scum lol

Top end guilds love bcgs. They will use points on draco.

Warriors need epics. Maestros will be bought. Tal has great red dragon haste. Good for building forces. Gore is a challenge. Raiders like challenge. Points wouldn't be spent the same. I should be promoting my own stuff!

[Yinikren]

Those mobs are expensive enough in my system that no two guilds can take them all.

If each guild gets 5 points a week to spend, and Trak, PD, and Nodrop epic mobs are all two points each, no guild can kill more than two a week. Loot mobs, VP dragons are one point.

With this system, a guild can farm two Key/Epic mobs and a loot mob, a single epic/key mob and three loot mobs, or 5 loot mobs per week.

Lets say that guild A kills PD(2), Trak (2), and Hoshkar(1). Guild B kills everything else in VP (4 points) and farms Naggy for alts (1). This leaves CT, Inny, Maestro, Fay, Gore, Sev, Talendor, And everything else up I am forgetting for the rest of the server to kill, because guild A and B already spent their points that week.

[Yinikren]

Lol, I love you Raditsu. Lets at least bump each others threads with wisdom!

[Erati]

Those mobs are expensive enough in my system that no two guilds can take them all.

If each guild gets 5 points a week to spend, and Trak, PD, and Nodrop epic mobs are all two points each, no guild can kill more than two a week. Loot mobs, VP dragons are one point.

With this system, a guild can farm two Key/Epic mobs and a loot mob, a single epic/key mob and three loot mobs, or 5 loot mobs per week.

Lets say that guild A kills PD(2), Trak (2), and Hoshkar(1). Guild B kills everything else in VP (4 points) and farms Naggy for alts (1). This leaves CT, Inny, Maestro, Fay, Gore, Sev, Talendor, And everything else up I am forgetting for the rest of the server to kill, because guild A and B already spent their points that week.

so when the only guilds that can kill the VP dragons DONT kill em and leave em up, while spending their points on the rest of the content

they can then claim that the VP dragons are FFA and cost no points bc they were left up for X period of time

or was this explained somewhere in the OP ( if it was i apologize just trying to further understand)

[Sinestria]

so when the only guilds that can kill the VP dragons DONT kill em and leave em up, while spending their points on the rest of the content

they can then claim that the VP dragons are FFA and cost no points bc they were left up for X period of time

or was this explained somewhere in the OP ( if it was i apologize just trying to further understand)

You really think TMO, FE, IB and BDA(?) would come to that kind of arrangement?

[quido]

hopeless proposal

[Snackies]

hopeless proposal

[Yinikren]

Wouldn't expect you two to like it.

Everyone else, on the other hand....

[Yinikren]

You really think TMO, FE, IB and BDA(?) would come to that kind of arrangement?

Exactly what I thought. BDA would LOVE attempting VP mobs that are left up so the higher guilds could try to, as usual, game the system.

[Yinikren]

Daily bump for justice towards all raid guilds.

[Godefroi]

horrible proposal is the word.

[Yinikren]

Thought the bird was the word?

[burkemi5]

Fairest proposal by far. Big guilds are butthurt that they won't get 90% of the raid mobs any more and take it out in this thread. Keep fighting the good fight Yini.

[Arteker]

Exactly what I thought. BDA would LOVE attempting VP mobs that are left up so the higher guilds could try to, as usual, game the system.

the word is Left, there is no train anymore in vp why u just dont try it.what stop you from even trying to kill anything in the server, sure tmo fe have gear but bda have numbers so why.....


because u want a handout .u want 0 effort . last time i cheked there is not rule saying tmo fe ib players time is less valuable than yours.

[whitebandit]

Definitely my favorite Proposal thus far...

+1

[drmccollum]

Definitely my favorite Proposal thus far...

+1

I proposed a rotation plan, but I like this one just as well.