A reply to a thread in the Raid Discussion section.

[Morgander]

I really wanted to write a reply to a given post in the aforementioned section that's off limits to everyone but a select few, thus I'll do it here.

This is the section of the post in question that I wish to reply to. It was posted by Hyjal.

To completely change the direction of how the raid scene plays out just because a few people have decided to hold hands and influence these discussions undermines the efforts that have been made to make this server a classic Everquest experience. Nilbog, Rogean and the many other developers have done a wonderful job here. The population keeps growing for a reason, and yes it has affected our raiding scene, but this is not World of Warcraft although I think some of you want it to be.

And I wanted to reply to this because this kind of thinking is in itself, poisonous.

There seems to be some misdirection as per the thinking of only a single group of like-minded individuals who feel that Everquest's raid experience--for one reason or another--was somehow designed to be handled similarly to the way that said scene is handled on this server.

Now stop right there. That kind of thinking is far too bold by any light. I was a guide on the Povar server, and I played on Veeshan, the Tribunal, Morell Thule, and Firiona Vie, and on all of those servers save for maybe Veeshan because I didn't play there long enough before switching, the raid scene was nothing like it has ever been on P1999.

This mentality that because zones weren't instanced, or because mobs didn't lock to their initial target, or any such lack of a self-policing system is in no way a signifier that the developers ever even considered any type of "who's the best gets it", or even, "who gets there first gets it". This kind of competitive, brutish thinking is STRICTLY a single viewpoint, and does NOT reflect the game, period, at all, in any way, ever.

The mere notion is ludicrous. To even think for a moment--to even IMPLY for a moment that this is the case is to further invite ideologies that the developers also never intended for any forms of player conduct within the guidelines of the game.

I can assure you, that is not the case.

For this mentality to hold even a single solitary truth, one MUST also begin to accept that there then should be NO RULES, and EVERYTHING should be acceptable. ALL forms of behavior.

Kill stealing, training, ninja looting--these are just some of the things that thus must have been perfectly permissible in all contexts, because the code never accounted for these actions.

Even in the same game but in a different context, the same rules to some people, no longer seem to hold the same value. To the majority of people, the idea of honoring a camp is just part of the unofficial rules. You just honor the camps of your fellow players because it's the proper thing to do. It's socially expected of you, and even for those few who have no such respect, they still know that it's socially expected. They're just self-centered.

But change that to raiding, and so many people seem so eager to flip a switch to turn the entire social ramifications of sharing completely off. They begin to quantify this shifting in moral application with sentiments such as hard work should equate to just reward, or competition is the lifeblood of the game.

Or even worse and extremely off base: That Everquest was intended to be all about competition.

For those of you who did not play EQ from its inauguration in 1999, let me enlighten you a tad: EQ originally was nearly impossible in its initial throws when it came to mustering up a cohesive singular guild who had the manpower, class power, and ability to raid at all. Almost every single server I played on had MAYBE two guilds who could even clear the planes. On Morell Thule for example, NO guild could clear all of Sky, and it took weeks of failed Trak attempts before he was finally defeated.

It was intended that raid content would be inaccessible for a myriad of reasons, but not wholly on the basis that any one or even two guilds would have the power to defeat everything SO thoroughly that nobody else even had a chance.

No, EQ was never intended to be about throwing the cards out the window so that only the "victors" go the spoils--at least not in that regard. The world was kept free and open, free and open to allow the players the opportunity to make their own choices, just as we're given here in the US and in many democratic nations across the world.

Firearms are not illegal in this nation mind, but using them in many instances very much is, and this I would argue, is very much a good similarity.

We have the POTENTIAL to train. We CAN, as per the game's mechanics, kill steal and ninja loot, and on every server with almost no exception, developers and game masters have set up rulesets to ensure that players do not abuse these freedoms, BUT THEY DO EXIST!

I could go into detail about the nature of the magic circle concept and some such other game and virtual world concepts, but I've already said quite enough. I'd recommend looking up Richard Bartle if you're interested in some good concepts behind online world design and game theory.

In summery: This mentality that EQ is all about competition is player-made. If you want to make declaration that YOU want competition, do so with all my respect, but do not begin to assume that because you CAN compete, that EQ was always intended for strict competition for content.

It wasn't, and as a guide on live, I can tell you first-hand examples of when I or a GM had to step in and even FORCE people to share, even if it didn't directly violate a rule.

You PLAY NICE. Period. You play nice so that everyone can have fun. If your idea of fun is a form of competition that misplaces 80% of the population, then you're fun is jeopardizing too much of the majority, and unfortunately, I would always lean in the opposite direction, regardless of my personal feelings.

Just a note as well for sake of argument: I never said I was for or against the idea of competition, nor am I disputing the concept as per how fun I may or may not find it. I'm simply disputing that while EQ can be competitive, it also cannot be completely competitive, because that WILL destroy the game. In the same nature that allowing open kill stealing, ninja looting, and training would also destroy the game.

There is a very good reason why we have rules. Some rules anyway.

[Pint]

I didnt read your whole post bc it is very long, however I dont think that doljon's stance is that outrageous. They came here to play a competitive mmo, all or most of the "tier 2" guilds refused to compete on this server bc they did not feel that the raid scene was worth the amount of effort it required. With the new PnP situation and a few additional tweaks that have been offered like reduced variance, no alt army camping/socking, and pre determined/random simulated respawns most of the activity they did not want to participate in has/will be curbed. However now we are seeing that these guilds are not actually that interested in competing on the leveled playing field that they have been wanting for years, they now want opportunities to raid mobs without having to compete with the established raiding guilds on the server at all. They feel that they have waited long enough to deserve attempts at raid targets that are not also contested by the guilds that previously made the effort to obtain the mobs they wanted. This in my opinion is a poisonous attitude to take toward the classic everquest raid scene.

[Tann]

I didn't read either post but this should be in the raid discussion forum if its about raid related things and since both posts so far have been walls of text I will add my own.

USS Daiquiri (SP-1285) was a motorboat – one of a series of identical boats – planned and built by the U.S. Navy in the event they would be needed during World War I. Daiquiri was armed as a patrol craft and assigned to New England waterways under the cognizance of the 1st Naval District based at Kittery, Maine. She was sold when the war ended. Daiquiri, 62'4" motor boat, was constructed in 1917 at Bristol, Rhode Island, as Herreshoff Hull # 317. She was one of a group of identical craft built in the expectation that they would be needed by the Navy should the United States enter World War I. Purchased by the Navy in mid-September 1917, she was commissioned in early October as USS Daiquiri (SP-1285) and performed patrol service for the 1st Naval District in New England waters for the rest of the conflict. Inactivated in April 1919, the boat was sold in March 1920.

[Swish]

The OP needs to utilize "economy of expression" to get his point across. Forums are at the point where raiding discussion is becoming like communication between 2 lawyer offices...and isn't the easiest to read. Can someone sum it up in a sentence or two for me? :D

[The Situation]

Doljon wants competition.

Doljon wiped to an uncontested Faydedar.

Let's think about that....

[Pint]

Doljon wants competition.

Doljon wiped to an uncontested Faydedar.

Let's think about that....

guild wipes to first attempt at real dragon, please tell us more.

[Pan]

In before the NEXT "I don't have the attention span to read" post.

Have a read. You'll be better for it.

[hynch]

I'm a casual scum and this is my 2 cents:

I think rotations are lame/boring/carebear. FFA raiding is classic. Alt armies are not classic. Take the old system, cut out the alt army crap, add in some simulated patch days and/or downtime, and that's how classic raiding was on Bristlebane.

[Tyym]

I was actually impressed despite the hard reading for my simple mind. But it made a lot of sense. So did Hynch's. I am sure FE and TMO could get rid of the alt armies and camping out near encounter locations, but our guilds still track and have experience mobilizing quickly. So if we agree to do nothing and keep everything as it has been with the aforementioned changes; how long will it take the T2 guilds to come up in arms because we are still killing more mobs than them? What will the next excuse be?

Morphius
Officer of Forceful Entry

[Ciroco]

Take the old system, cut out the alt army crap, add in some simulated patch days and/or downtime, and that's how classic raiding was on Bristlebane.

Except that there are several times as many raid capable players here.

I really hope the word "classic" goes the way of YOLO in these discussions. It's not a useful comparison.

[hynch]

Bristlebane was a pretty popular server. Just because you were level 60 did not mean you should get pixels. On BB you had to join a decent guild to raid. We had three or four real raiding guilds going during Kunark and Velious, and a handful of guilds that would team up for left overs. I will concede that Kunark was not old news quite like it is on P99, but that is beyond our control.

[Splorf22]

I didnt read your whole post bc it is very long, however I dont think that doljon's stance is that outrageous. They came here to play a competitive mmo, all or most of the "tier 2" guilds refused to compete on this server bc they did not feel that the raid scene was worth the amount of effort it required.

I think you misread the OP. The point said OP is trying to make is that EQ during the classic era was not necessarily the vicious competition seen here. Yes, the mechanics do create limits in ways that instances do not. However, during classic there were far fewer high level players. And of course we all know that variance is a pure P1999 thing.

TL;DR: P1999's endgame scene is not remotely classic, contrary to what some would have you believe.

[Pint]

i didnt miss read it i just skimmed it and assumed it was another post in defense of dividing up mobs and restricting who could engage what and when. i dont honestly care how everyone raided on their own respective servers in classic, i just want this game to still require coordination and effort beyond the idea of 'today is x guild's turn to engage trakanon for 6 hours then y guild can have a shot'. all of these proposals are silly, remove the game mechanics and situations that make competing so unbearable then compete. if a guild still doesnt want to compete, then dont raid. tldr; death to rotations.

[Jarnauga]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3HAEq1F0kX8

This is the only and true classic way to kill dragons.

Also BDA knocked down the towerz.

[Morgander]

I'm beginning to rather strongly believe in fact, that there are only two things that can be done to help create an actually authentic sense of competition on this server, and that's partially because this server is an emulation based on what information the development has at their disposal, and because we've too many people with too much knowledge about the current content.

The first thing we can do, is just beef up the hit points of all raid mobs. This is one of the reasons as to why Velious is a game changer. Many of the raid mobs in Velious have hundreds of thousands of hit points, versus the current 32 thousand cap we had during classic through Kunark.

I can imagine that many of the guilds on this server would not have the staying power to take out opponents such as Trakenon if he had 300,000 hit points. Even if you know what you're doing, you're going to have to have better resists and equipment, coupled with more healing power just to keep the raid force's dps up long enough before the healers are all completely drained of their mana.

Barring that this never happens (and at this point I'd love to see it tried for even a few weeks, because I believe the experiment would change the game entirely), then we simply need Velious.

Nothing short of that is going to do anything else but become a half-assed fix.

[Shiftin]

The first thing we can do, is just beef up the hit points of all raid mobs.

Server not classic enough? CHANGE BASIC MECHANICS!

[Sadre Spinegnawer]

I really wanted to write a reply to a given post in the aforementioned section that's off limits to everyone but a select few, thus I'll do it here.

This is the section of the post in question that I wish to reply to. It was posted by Hyjal.

To completely change the direction of how the raid scene plays out just because a few people have decided to hold hands and influence these discussions undermines the efforts that have been made to make this server a classic Everquest experience. Nilbog, Rogean and the many other developers have done a wonderful job here. The population keeps growing for a reason, and yes it has affected our raiding scene, but this is not World of Warcraft although I think some of you want it to be.

And I wanted to reply to this because this kind of thinking is in itself, poisonous.

There seems to be some misdirection as per the thinking of only a single group of like-minded individuals who feel that Everquest's raid experience--for one reason or another--was somehow designed to be handled similarly to the way that said scene is handled on this server.

Now stop right there. That kind of thinking is far too bold by any light. I was a guide on the Povar server, and I played on Veeshan, the Tribunal, Morell Thule, and Firiona Vie, and on all of those servers save for maybe Veeshan because I didn't play there long enough before switching, the raid scene was nothing like it has ever been on P1999.

This mentality that because zones weren't instanced, or because mobs didn't lock to their initial target, or any such lack of a self-policing system is in no way a signifier that the developers ever even considered any type of "who's the best gets it", or even, "who gets there first gets it". This kind of competitive, brutish thinking is STRICTLY a single viewpoint, and does NOT reflect the game, period, at all, in any way, ever.

The mere notion is ludicrous. To even think for a moment--to even IMPLY for a moment that this is the case is to further invite ideologies that the developers also never intended for any forms of player conduct within the guidelines of the game.

I can assure you, that is not the case.

For this mentality to hold even a single solitary truth, one MUST also begin to accept that there then should be NO RULES, and EVERYTHING should be acceptable. ALL forms of behavior.

Kill stealing, training, ninja looting--these are just some of the things that thus must have been perfectly permissible in all contexts, because the code never accounted for these actions.

Even in the same game but in a different context, the same rules to some people, no longer seem to hold the same value. To the majority of people, the idea of honoring a camp is just part of the unofficial rules. You just honor the camps of your fellow players because it's the proper thing to do. It's socially expected of you, and even for those few who have no such respect, they still know that it's socially expected. They're just self-centered.

But change that to raiding, and so many people seem so eager to flip a switch to turn the entire social ramifications of sharing completely off. They begin to quantify this shifting in moral application with sentiments such as hard work should equate to just reward, or competition is the lifeblood of the game.

Or even worse and extremely off base: That Everquest was intended to be all about competition.

For those of you who did not play EQ from its inauguration in 1999, let me enlighten you a tad: EQ originally was nearly impossible in its initial throws when it came to mustering up a cohesive singular guild who had the manpower, class power, and ability to raid at all. Almost every single server I played on had MAYBE two guilds who could even clear the planes. On Morell Thule for example, NO guild could clear all of Sky, and it took weeks of failed Trak attempts before he was finally defeated.

It was intended that raid content would be inaccessible for a myriad of reasons, but not wholly on the basis that any one or even two guilds would have the power to defeat everything SO thoroughly that nobody else even had a chance.

No, EQ was never intended to be about throwing the cards out the window so that only the "victors" go the spoils--at least not in that regard. The world was kept free and open, free and open to allow the players the opportunity to make their own choices, just as we're given here in the US and in many democratic nations across the world.

Firearms are not illegal in this nation mind, but using them in many instances very much is, and this I would argue, is very much a good similarity.

We have the POTENTIAL to train. We CAN, as per the game's mechanics, kill steal and ninja loot, and on every server with almost no exception, developers and game masters have set up rulesets to ensure that players do not abuse these freedoms, BUT THEY DO EXIST!

I could go into detail about the nature of the magic circle concept and some such other game and virtual world concepts, but I've already said quite enough. I'd recommend looking up Richard Bartle if you're interested in some good concepts behind online world design and game theory.

In summery: This mentality that EQ is all about competition is player-made. If you want to make declaration that YOU want competition, do so with all my respect, but do not begin to assume that because you CAN compete, that EQ was always intended for strict competition for content.

It wasn't, and as a guide on live, I can tell you first-hand examples of when I or a GM had to step in and even FORCE people to share, even if it didn't directly violate a rule.

You PLAY NICE. Period. You play nice so that everyone can have fun. If your idea of fun is a form of competition that misplaces 80% of the population, then you're fun is jeopardizing too much of the majority, and unfortunately, I would always lean in the opposite direction, regardless of my personal feelings.

Just a note as well for sake of argument: I never said I was for or against the idea of competition, nor am I disputing the concept as per how fun I may or may not find it. I'm simply disputing that while EQ can be competitive, it also cannot be completely competitive, because that WILL destroy the game. In the same nature that allowing open kill stealing, ninja looting, and training would also destroy the game.

There is a very good reason why we have rules. Some rules anyway.

That's right bitches, I quoted the whole thing.

But the OP is allowing two different things to get conflated.

"Logistically" speaking, 2000 or 2001 is not 2013. True. Cut-throat competition was therefore never the norm in classic eq. False. It was as cut-throat as it could be, given the limits of postulate 1.

We just live in an age where we have to artificially -- whether rotations or instances or what the fuck ever -- impede access to contested pixels, because, we have attained the singularity or something.

[Aeaolena]

I talked to my guilds old 'The Tribunal' guild leader last night and asked him about the raiding scene during Kunark.

He said he remembers The Tribunal did have rotations for some things back in Kunark. Sure on other mobs the top two guilds butted heads from time to time, but he had good, gentlemanly relations with all the guild leaders, even the top guild at the time.

Also, he said normally when a guild was at a mob, in force... it was an unstated rule that the other guild showing up would let the first guild buff up and try with their numbers. While they were fighting, the second guild would amass numbers. If the first guild wiped, the second guild would then try. In other words - No guilds got trampled or trained the way they do here on P1999.

I also remember our RnF board in those days.. and it was usually about taunting guilds who didn't have the skill to kill such and such yet. They taunted over the actual competitive nature of the game, as far as I can remember.. not how good they were at cockblocking..

[sabinrf24]

I also remember our RnF board in those days.. and it was usually about taunting guilds who didn't have the skill to kill such and such yet. They taunted over the actual competitive nature of the game, as far as I can remember.. not how good they were at cockblocking..

This is how I remember things as well. This game is about the challenge of overcoming content, for me. I realize that content has become easy for some groups of people, and that the only challenge remaining for them is to compete for FTE. It's a shame that this FTE competition means that another portion of the population can't challenge themselves and try boss fights without the added overhead of jumping through the hoops of also competing for FTE.

[Aeaolena]

This is how I remember things as well. This game is about the challenge of overcoming content, for me. I realize that content has become easy for some groups of people, and that the only challenge remaining for them is to compete for FTE. It's a shame that this FTE competition means that another portion of the population can't challenge themselves and try boss fights without the added overhead of jumping through the hoops of also competing for FTE.

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.

[Uteunayr]

Applying a "rotation" mindset to "World of Warcraft" is stupid, and Hyjal should feel ashamed for making such a terrible reference. It was done for absolutely nothing other than to get a knee-jerk reaction out of readers. World of Warcraft guilds do not need to rotate or compete for limited resources, instead they compete over who can kill the most number within their instanced bubble.

Now, on to the more fundamental issue.

The big problem I am seeing now is that the FFA guilds are saying that swapping mobs back and forth between them and more casual guilds (who may still decide upon competition, but with limitations such as re-engage timers on successive spawns, etc., it is up to them), that is a rotation.

This is the terrible perspective. This is why there is an incompatibility between the two ways of thinking, and if there is ever going to be an even balance, compromise needs to be made.

No one is telling the FFA guilds, the Class C guilds, to share their mobs amongst themselves. No one is saying they need to rotate among themselves. The 1/1/1 plan says that you look at website or program Rogean is working on to say which class got the last kill, and you compete over the ones that are coming your direction. If this isn't enough competition, then it isn't competition you're seeking.

Further, with the repops Rogean has proposed, there would be a plentiful number of mobs across the server as even Nilbog went along with making simulated repops not effect the normal spawn time, meaning you get the same number of spawns, split 33%/33%/33%, with the FFA ones falling more easily into the competitive tier, so 66%/33%. Then, you add in the fact that there are 2-4 respawns a month that do not effect timers, and you inflate the values further. Rogean I believe said that (before Nilbog agreed to making the repops not effect respawn timers) that with the respawn timers resetting, Class C (hardcore) guilds would see only a 7% drop in mobs to compete over.

Competition is classic. Rotations are classic. Cooperation is classic. Being a douchebag is classic. Rogean's plan permits each side to play their type of classic with their split of the toys, to compete over, or to rotate, or to compete in a more friendly way.

The only change I'd make to Rogean's plan is to say that if a guild wants to be Class C, they can just become Class C. Let Dolj fight with the other Class C guilds and get the type of competition they want.

[Elements]

Applying a "rotation" mindset to "World of Warcraft" is stupid, and Hyjal should feel ashamed for making such a terrible reference. It was done for absolutely nothing other than to get a knee-jerk reaction out of readers. World of Warcraft guilds do not need to rotate or compete for limited resources, instead they compete over who can kill the most number within their instanced bubble.

Now, on to the more fundamental issue.

The big problem I am seeing now is that the FFA guilds are saying that swapping mobs back and forth between them and more casual guilds (who may still decide upon competition, but with limitations such as re-engage timers on successive spawns, etc., it is up to them), that is a rotation.

This is the terrible perspective. This is why there is an incompatibility between the two ways of thinking, and if there is ever going to be an even balance, compromise needs to be made.

No one is telling the FFA guilds, the Class C guilds, to share their mobs amongst themselves. No one is saying they need to rotate among themselves. The 1/1/1 plan says that you look at website or program Rogean is working on to say which class got the last kill, and you compete over the ones that are coming your direction. If this isn't enough competition, then it isn't competition you're seeking.

Further, with the repops Rogean has proposed, there would be a plentiful number of mobs across the server as even Nilbog went along with making simulated repops not effect the normal spawn time, meaning you get the same number of spawns, split 33%/33%/33%, with the FFA ones falling more easily into the competitive tier, so 66%/33%. Then, you add in the fact that there are 2-4 respawns a month that do not effect timers, and you inflate the values further. Rogean I believe said that (before Nilbog agreed to making the repops not effect respawn timers) that with the respawn timers resetting, Class C (hardcore) guilds would see only a 7% drop in mobs to compete over.

Competition is classic. Rotations are classic. Cooperation is classic. Being a douchebag is classic. Rogean's plan permits each side to play their type of classic with their split of the toys, to compete over, or to rotate, or to compete in a more friendly way.

The only change I'd make to Rogean's plan is to say that if a guild wants to be Class C, they can just become Class C. Let Dolj fight with the other Class C guilds and get the type of competition they want.

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Doljon wants competition.

Doljon wiped to an uncontested Faydedar.

Let's think about that....

If DJ is the only tier 2 guild that competes during t2 time of the month, guess where everyone's alt goes.

[Uteunayr]

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

If you wish to offer your own, do so. It is the job of the critic to offer alternative evidence. Put up alternative evidence or accept the conclusion drawn. Don't attack the person, attack the claim. It's a fallacy.

I will elaborate only one thing, in that the math was Splorf's, not Rogean's (and I wrote above "I believe...", in that I was not completely sure), but it was done on Rogean's plan before Nilbog's agreement to the repops.

If DJ is the only tier 2 guild that competes during t2 time of the month, guess where everyone's alt goes.

Just clarifying what you responded to, it was "uncontested" in that AG did not interfere with their mob or mess with their pull. AG was there to engage and claim the mob, as it was theirs by the rotation that most of the "tier 2" guilds accepted. Upon wiping, AG engaged with the assistance of a BDA puller (teaching a puller of theirs), and then they killed the boss with less players and with no other guild's help on the fight itself.

[knix]

With the 1 1 1 rotation plan there is times where on a repop there will be an R mob that spawns. For example the R mob would be gorenaire. The R -guild who was assigned that spawn would have to go after that gorenaire first before competing for other FFA mobs. You will not be able to go after FFA mobs if your R mobs spawns. There might be 2 or 3 R mobs that spawn on a repop day.

Who is going to police this, are you going to expect Sirken and Derubael to monitor this to make sure R's are doing it right? And what happens to the R guild if they go after an FFA mob while they have a R spawned, or what happens to a C guild if they kill a mob on a repop day honestly thinking its an FFA or a C mob.

[Splorf22]

If DJ is the only tier 2 guild that competes during t2 time of the month, guess where everyone's alt goes.

this better result in a ban of all toons, or there is no point at all to the concept of tiers

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

Your post contains no substantiative content, which makes it the essence of propaganda, not to mention incorrect. Under Rogean's plan, 66% of mobs will be FFA, but the total number of mobs will increase by at least 50%. 2/3 of 150% is . . . wait for it . . 100%. Precisely the same number of mobs will be FFA as before, and there will be 50% more VP mobs as well. If you can't get those, that is not Rogean's fault.

The OP's point is that classic EverQuest was not, on most servers, a game dominated by FTE and racing, and that the people who are constantly posting carebear gifs and making comparisons to World of Warcraft are either trolling or dumb.

[Uteunayr]

With the 1 1 1 rotation plan there is times where on a repop there will be an R mob that spawns. For example the R mob would be gorenaire. The R -guild who was assigned that spawn would have to go after that gorenaire first before competing for other FFA mobs. You will not be able to go after FFA mobs if your R mobs spawns. There might be 2 or 3 R mobs that spawn on a repop day.

Who is going to police this, are you going to expect Sirken and Derubael to monitor this to make sure R's are doing it right? And what happens to the R guild if they go after an FFA mob while they have a R spawned, or what happens to a C guild if they kill a mob on a repop day honestly thinking its an FFA or a C mob.

I believe it was brought up in the Raid Discussion that Rogean was able to create something that would collect who killed what, and then upload that to a site (similar to whokilledit), which would let everyone know which class was the last to kill the mob. It would give a reliable way to know which mobs are locked to which tier.

Further, the 1/1/1 split doesn't necessarily mean that the Class R guilds have to rotate. Rogean's plan only says that Class R guilds cannot monopolize a single mob, by needing to wait 2 respawns until their next claim. Any agreement between the Class R guilds, and the challenges (such as getting your assigned Class R mob before a FFA spawned mob) fall entirely on Class R and the way they decide to manage their system. That isn't the responsibility of Rogean's Plan to institute such a rotation, only to make it so each side can create their own environment that is beneficial to themselves, without degrading the other.

So, as for who is going to police this, it will be rather simple to police in truth. You look at the schedule, it was a Class C mob, a Class R guild did it, swap the loot, done. There's no question as to who is in the wrong in this case, because we know the Class R guild was the aggressor. No need to delve through endless crap to discover the truth. Class R guild takes out a Class C mob, they are in trouble, end.

As for enforcing whatever Class R sets up among themselves, that's on themselves to create a system to manage it. Rogean's Plan doesn't force a rotation on either side, so if Class R creates a rotation, it's on them to live up to it, and to find a way to enforce it, because that was created by them. Without a rotation, the 2 kill lockout for Class R is more than enough to help diffuse a single guild from being insanely too powerful and monopolizing.

[YendorLootmonkey]

More bull shit numbers based on faulty premises. Just stop the propaganda.

Let's look at the numbers then, and measure solely the number of spawns where a Class C (hardcore) guild has the opportunity to compete for. Because that's what this is all about, right?

Based on a 30-day cycle, we know that the mobs that spawn at 7 days +/- 48 hours spawn, on average, 4.2857 times during the 30-day cycle. This is mathematical fact. I confirmed it by running trials in Excel over 5000 iterations with a random time from spawn-to-kill between 0-60 minutes, just to make sure I hadn't forgotten basic math... It comes out to 4.28-4.29 every damn time. Lets go ahead and round to 4.3 for simplicity's sake.

Reducing variance as Rogean proposed does not change that number... it only reduces the tracking window needed. That is good for all of us. Again, I ran trials with 72-hour, 48-hour, 24-hour, and 12-hour variance just to make sure the math wasn't eluding me. Still, 4.3 spawns of a particular mob per 30 days.

So prior to the raid suspension, hardcore guilds had 4.3 opportunities a month to kill a given mob a the 7 day +/- 48 hour cycle. Bear with me...

Rogean stated the 1/1/1 plan would include between 2-4 simulated patch day respawns per month. So lets say an average of 3. At first this doesn't mean very much, because a full re-pop would under normal mechanics reset the spawn timers of normal spawn cycles. Until Rogean added that nilbog supported the continuation of normal spawn timers during a simulated respawn. (http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1268343&postcount=86) Unless I am misunderstanding, now we can add an average of 3 extra spawns per month due to full repops to that 4.3 we're already seeing.

At this point, the hardcore guilds have no more argument that they are being negatively impacted. Here is why:

Now there are 7.3 respawns of a 7 day +/- 48 hour cycle mob in a 30 day period. Of these, they would rotate between Class C, Class R, and FFA per the 1/1/1 plan. Rogean has stated that full repops would not change what status a particular mob would fall under... it simply rotates across those categories each time it spawns, however it spawns (normal vs. forced). Over 219 spawns (thirty 30-day periods), it follows that 73 of them would be Class C, 73 would be Class R, and 73 of them would be FFA.

The opportunity for hardcore guilds to compete on these spawns is obviously the sum of Class C and FFA mobs, since they can't touch Class R. The difference is of course that they have fewer guilds to compete against in Class C than in FFA, but the point remains the same: they have the opportunity to compete for them and that's supposedly what competition is all about. That is 146 spawns over thirty 30-day periods they have the opportunity to compete for.

Divide that by 30 to get the number of spawns they have an opportunity to compete for in a 30-day period.... surprise, it's 4.86 spawns of a particular mob on the 7 day +/- 48 hour spawn cycle.

So there you have it. The hardcore's reluctance to accept the 1/1/1 plan in which they get the opportunity to compete for more mobs than they already do is all about denying pixels to others. We have mathematical proof that under Rogean's plan they would get the opportunity to compete against 4.86 spawns a month compared to the 4.3 they have had the opportunity to compete for in the past.

[Bones]

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.
well said but wise words fall not on deaf ears

[Aeaolena]

Exactly. I would use the analogy that this game is like a game of vintage ring toss. The true skill of it is in the eye coordination of the toss, and getting it around the stake.

However, some players have put an overhead (ie. covering the rings in feces)... This is disturbing to anyone else who would choose to play for skill, who remembers how this vintage game is supposed to be played.. And doesn't wish to get arm-deep in defecation. So here in this scenario.. 7/9 raid forces are choosing to sit out and not play at all.

That is not loving competition.. That is simply the art of preventing competition. And I would venture to say this aspect is not classic at all for the majority of players here.

well said but wise words fall not on deaf ears

Then I just have to have faith that Rogean and Nilbog aren't deaf. :/

Especially since they are the ones who, as an analogy, again.. posted the "Do not shit on rings" signs.. only to have certain guilds lawyer-argue against the spirit of said rule - arguing that "Shit is defined as a solid substance, that is clearly diarrhea.."

Thus the whole reason why the Raid talks are taking place, to curb some of the nonsense.

[Nune]

Yendor just owned this thread hard

[Uteunayr]

Yendor just owned this thread hard

^

[knix]

Further, the 1/1/1 split doesn't necessarily mean that the Class R guilds have to rotate. Rogean's plan only says that Class R guilds cannot monopolize a single mob, by needing to wait 2 respawns until their next claim. Any agreement between the Class R guilds, and the challenges (such as getting your assigned Class R mob before a FFA spawned mob) fall entirely on Class R and the way they decide to manage their system. That isn't the responsibility of Rogean's Plan to institute such a rotation, only to make it so each side can create their own environment that is beneficial to themselves, without degrading the other.


So on repop day when Gore is an R mob, theoretically all the R class could play hot potato, and say, We are doing Inny, we don't want to do gore right now. So there should be a rule in place that all of the R mobs need to be taken down before any R guilds compete for FFA spawns.


So, as for who is going to police this, it will be rather simple to police in truth. You look at the schedule, it was a Class C mob, a Class R guild did it, swap the loot, done. There's no question as to who is in the wrong in this case, because we know the Class R guild was the aggressor. No need to delve through endless crap to discover the truth. Class R guild takes out a Class C mob, they are in trouble, end.


Oh do tell who would determine which Class C guild (cause there is at least 2) would get the loots, (ie who is going to police this). Would the R guild get suspended from raiding for taking a mob that wasn't on their list?,. I mean, if its just a matter of handing over the loot, that might be good cause I know we have killed many dragons and they had crappy loot, Might as well kill all the dragons as competitive, and just hand over loot, I think I could get behind that plan. Cause its the rush, its the balls to the wall, can you get there and have your force in place with a pull first and winning that is the fun of competition, so many times its a no weight bag and a pally item that the dragons drop. I think that many people who have not killed a plethora of dragons think that they drop good loot every time, but just like crypt, How many times do you kill Hiero room and get a Hiero cloak?
You Claim this plan wouldn't take away from the competitive environment, but, being handed loot from dragons, you don't kill isn't competitive, the only way to fix a R killing a C dragon is to respawn dragon, and suspend the R guild for 4 weeks. (same punishment for training) because the guild would be responsible for raid interference.

As for enforcing whatever Class R sets up among themselves, that's on themselves to create a system to manage it. Rogean's Plan doesn't force a rotation on either side, so if Class R creates a rotation, it's on them to live up to it, and to find a way to enforce it, because that was created by them. Without a rotation, the 2 kill lockout for Class R is more than enough to help diffuse a single guild from being insanely too powerful and monopolizing.

If the R's aren't going to have to go after their R mobs before going after FFA on repop day , it it will block and affect the C's. That is why Sirkens plan B- easy to police, easy to track easy for the Volunteer CSR staff. Do the people that were crying over this plan realize what they are doing to the CSR staff. Rogean isnt always around to monitor his grand plan, Sirken, Derubael, Eunomia, Zade, and Ambrotos are the one that are going to have to deal with the day to day aspects of monitoring (policing) this plan. the 1 1 1 plan has many aspects that are not classic, all to give the "casual" guilds a unique , instance like attempt at a dragon.


edit AND If a R dragon is left up when a repop happens, causing a FFA or a C dragon to not spawn, does the R dragon BECOME the C or the FFA dragon?

[Rararboker]

Yendor just owned this thread hard

[YendorLootmonkey]

Yendor just owned this thread hard

Feel free to link to the post in the official 1/1/1 Proposal Discussion, along with this:

That's even without Ute pointing out to me via PMs a little bit ago the special case of VP mobs, which, if included on the re-pop plan (Rogean/nilbog never specified they wouldn't), Class C guilds not only go from 4.3 to 4.86 spawns of a particular 7-day +/- 48hr non-VP mob, as an added benefit they go from 4.3 to 7.3 spawns of each VP mob in a 30-day cycle because they have the opportunity to compete for those every time they spawn. That's 18 extra VP dragons they are getting every 30 days from the 1/1/1 plan, plus more non-VP opportunities. Yet they are focused on limiting the Class R guilds on what is essentially an entirely new set of mobs being added to the mix. Class C wants in on those too? Unbelieveable.

Based on the above numbers, any hardcore that rejects this 1/1/1 plan as a concept is just trying to deny pixels to Class R with no detriment to the amount of opportunities that Class C is being provided.

[radditsu]

Boom mathshot.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Here's the Excel spreadsheet I was using to simulate 25000 spawns if anyone wants to pick it apart or mess with it. You can change that "Max hours Class R has to kill a mob" value from 8 to whatever. Class C and FFA mobs are assumed to die within an hour, based on P99 raiding history. ;) This does not include the extra 3 re-pops per month on average, I just wanted to get a feel for how a delay in killing every third spawn might impact the spawns per month on the non-"forced full re-pop" spawns. The answer was: Not much.

http://www.filedropper.com/spawns

[Uteunayr]

So on repop day when Gore is an R mob, theoretically all the R class could play hot potato, and say, We are doing Inny, we don't want to do gore right now. So there should be a rule in place that all of the R mobs need to be taken down before any R guilds compete for FFA spawns.

Tier C can do the same thing with their assigned mobs, aiming for the FFA between tiers before their tier assigned ones.

So there should be a rule in place that all of the C mobs need to be taken down before any C guilds compete for FFA spawns, in conjunction with the same restrictions placed on Tier R. That is fair, but it is also fair to say that you can just let all FFA mobs be FFA, and let each tier ignore theirs until the FFA are off the table.

Oh do tell who would determine which Class C guild (cause there is at least 2) would get the loots, (ie who is going to police this).

This is up to GM prerogative. This system makes it immediately clear that the transgressor is, and that is the important thing. This means it is easy to assign blame for the disruption to the system, and dish out disciplinary action. It is up to the GMs how they want to handle this, but if I was in control, I'd levy significant damages against the guild that violated the arrangement to act as a significant deterrent. If there is no way to know who gets what loot, then the loot gets poofed, and the system was violated and one of the classes lost loot that they should have received. But in return, that guild is raid banned, dismantled, raid suspended, however they want to interpret heavy deterrence. Sure, the one class lost a mob to the other, but the transgressor is going to pay dearly for it. And again, this cuts down on the work load because the only thing that is important is identifying the violator of the rules.

It seems to me Class C guilds are going to have a far easier time with this system, as it is far more likely a Class C guild could grief the other side, than Class R could to Class C, just given raid capabilities.

Would the R guild get suspended from raiding for taking a mob that wasn't on their list?

I certainly would if I was a GM. You have a clear transgressor, you have a clear violation of the system. Suspend them for a month or two. There's no grey area in "Oh, was it training? Was it not?". Suspend them, and make it harsh enough that guilds will not seek to violate the system. Very low workload to maintain this.

You Claim this plan wouldn't take away from the competitive environment, but, being handed loot from dragons, you don't kill isn't competitive, the only way to fix a R killing a C dragon is to respawn dragon, and suspend the R guild for 4 weeks. (same punishment for training) because the guild would be responsible for raid interference.

How is it handled now if a guild kills a mob that was engaged by, and then kited by, another guild? So, Guild A pulls Mob A. Mob A is brought down to 70%, and then Guild A is dying. Before Mob A is back up to 100%, while Guild A still has some people up, Guild B comes in and kills Mob A.

As far as I am aware, Guild B killing Mob A still results in Mob A's loot going to Guild A. It may not be nice, and that's why the punishments for violating this system need to be significant. It encourages guilds not to violate the rules of the server, and so it doesn't need to be policed often, lowering the GM workload. Further, it is clear who violated, so dishing out discipline is far simpler than dredging through logs.

Lastly here, I'll point out that if a Class R guild runs to and gets a Class C mob before Class C does, didn't they beat you in competition? Sure, they will lose the loot and get punished, but you talk about the fun of competition, but if they beat you to it, that's still competition, just one that you lost. And then they get punished.

If the R's aren't going to have to go after their R mobs before going after FFA on repop day , it it will block and affect the C's.

Just restating what I said above, the same thing is true if Class C goes after the FFA mobs before going after their mobs, which they engage in through a FFA style.

That is why Sirkens plan B- easy to police, easy to track easy for the Volunteer CSR staff.

This plan is equally elegant, if not more so, in that it also keeps ideologically polarized individuals from interaction as much as possible, and lets each side experience their side of classic if they stay within their own bubble. I've brought this guy up in other places, but one of my favorite political scientists, a personal hero of mine named Mark Haas wrote a rather fascinating book called Ideological Origins of Great Power Politics, which shows that pretty much every war that has broken out between states since the french revolution has come about due to vastly ideological differences.

It is not difficult to apply similar logic or findings to EverQuest, in which states act as guilds, and wars are conflicts that the GMs need to resolve. Let the ideologically competitive stay with the ideologically competitive, and compete with one another to enjoy their system, and let the casuals do the same among themselves. This is what Sirken's plan did not provide for, and it is why Sirken's plan would not resolve any long term conflicts, the casual guilds still were forced to play the hardcore game for the vast majority of the month. With the 1/1/1 plan, the casuals can be casuals all month long, and the hardcores can be hardcore all month long. Making either side play the other's game for the vast majority of the month is unacceptable, and simply will not work for long term stabilization of the conflicts and the shitshow that is endgame raiding on this server.

Do the people that were crying over this plan realize what they are doing to the CSR staff. Rogean isnt always around to monitor his grand plan, Sirken, Derubael, Eunomia, Zade, and Ambrotos are the one that are going to have to deal with the day to day aspects of monitoring (policing) this plan.

And I will state once more. "This was a Class R mob. Class C killed it. One month suspension." Done. Be brutal, be harsh. The rules are clear, the process is clear, the punishment is clear. Make the punishment harsh enough that the benefit of violating the rules (and with the loot being removed from their possession, there is very little) is significantly less than the cost. Make the punishment severe, and it wont be a day to day occurrence, and when it does spring up, it is easy to dish out punishment and move on, relieving the GM staff of the hard and great work they do on our behalf.

the 1 1 1 plan has many aspects that are not classic, all to give the "casual" guilds a unique , instance like attempt at a dragon.

Much of this server is not all that classic. This type of competition on the server is not that classic. It is the type of thing you get when you sit on content for years longer than happened in classic, have a heavy population of 60s that is not classic. So, this server is far from classic, and it makes the competition on this server not classic. However, it is pseudo-classic. It is more classic than anything else you're going to find, and that is awesome.

But hardcore competition is not the sole classic. There are many people who remember their servers having agreements between the high end guilds, having cooperation, having friendly competition, rather than the cutthroat behavior on this server. These people have an equal right to relive their classic as you do to relive your hardcore classic. That's fine. Both sides deserve that. Sirken's plan does not permit it, the 1/1/1 does. It allows each side to play their way with their share of the toys, all month long. Compete against each other if you like, be friendly with each other if you like, rotate if you like.

The hardcores are getting more than enough to compete over. They are getting more mobs out of this than they had before. The only cost is that they are being asked to do it with themselves, rather than shoving their epeen all across the server and ruining other player's attempts to build their classic experience.

TL;DR:
1) 1/1/1 lets each side play with their split of the mobs. (Yendor 2014)
2) Class C has significantly more, to motivate Class R to become Class C. (Yendor 2014)
3) Ideologically opposite people are kept at an arms length so they don't fight. (Haas 2007)
4) Harsh punishments to deter violations of the system.
5) Policing the system itself would not take long, to relieve the work of the GM staff.

[Kadron]

So there you have it. The hardcore's reluctance to accept the 1/1/1 plan in which they get the opportunity to compete for more mobs than they already do is all about denying pixels to others. We have mathematical proof that under Rogean's plan they would get the opportunity to compete against 4.86 spawns a month compared to the 4.3 they have had the opportunity to compete for in the past.

http://i.imgur.com/TOxZYt4.gif

[JayN]

This is retarded; staff want a solution with rules that only they can only enforce, but they dont want to have to enforce it?

Shut this server down imo...


How goes Velious?

[Crosswind]

GG WP.

[knix]

This is retarded; staff want a solution with rules that only they can only enforce, but they dont want to have to enforce it?

Shut this server down imo...

easy to enforce Sirken -b plan, VS hard to enforce 1 1 1 rotation plan proposed by Rogean.

[Uteunayr]

Can't count to three, plan is hard bros.

^

[JayN]

1 2 3 plan is bawls GG

[knix]

I wondered if all these posts would poof too

[myxomatosii]

In before the NEXT "I don't have the attention span to read" post.

Have a read. You'll be better for it.

The ignorance-spawning lack of attention span on these forums is surprising to me. The OP was at most.. a .. single .. page .. of a book? Seriously, people can't read a page dedicated to something they care enough about to sign up to the related forums and take the time to pen a response.

Jeez, how do they get anywhere in real life?

[Hawala]

I'm a casual scum and this is my 2 cents:

I think rotations are lame/boring/carebear. FFA raiding is classic. Alt armies are not classic. Take the old system, cut out the alt army crap, add in some simulated patch days and/or downtime, and that's how classic raiding was on Bristlebane.

I totally agree. Not only that, but I've heard of more than one person who's account was taken over by a "friend" to just wind up in their alt army. Including my own.

[drktmplr12]

The ignorance-spawning lack of attention span on these forums is surprising to me. The OP was at most.. a .. single .. page .. of a book? Seriously, people can't read a page dedicated to something they care enough about to sign up to the related forums and take the time to pen a response.

Jeez, how do they get anywhere in real life?

I can stare at pixels resembling merbs for hours, but i can't be expected to stare at pixels that resemble words for minutes.

[Droog007]

So there you have it. The hardcore's reluctance to accept the 1/1/1 plan in which they get the opportunity to compete for more mobs than they already do is all about denying pixels to others. We have mathematical proof that under Rogean's plan they would get the opportunity to compete against 4.86 spawns a month compared to the 4.3 they have had the opportunity to compete for in the past.

It is a little sad/ironic that after all this work to hammer out a way for both schools of EQ raiding to coexist, the problem is going to just go away when the "hardcores" find themselves inexplicably losing the will to "compete" so hard when they see casual scum running around with previously unattainable epics and the like...

I don't mean that the "problem" going away will make me sad... just that it was so painful getting here. Maybe Rogean should've just gone with his gut and dissolved TMO.