New Raid Rules question - how would "unguilded" pickup raids be handled?

[tristantio]

Will we be keeping track of engagement timers on a per character basis?

Will the timer be related to the guild you're in when the mob is engaged, or when your kill is in review?

For instance, say that some guild has 20 members leave the guild for a kill, then rejoin (or join an entirely new or rival guild after) - who is locked out?

[Erati]

Id assume if u dont belong to a guild then just THAT character is locked out

[Velerin]

What if someone leaves guild A then gets invited into a guild B midfight then deguilds then gets invited into guild C but then guild D kills the mob?

Maybe we should stop trying to find loopholes and just make it work?

How many unguilded pickup raids have killed any high level raid mob on this server ever?

[Aaron]

People trying to skirt rules like this should just be suspended for a a good length of time. Instead of making a rule for every single instance that can happen, players should just be punished when they try to pull bullshit.

You know if you're doing something against the spirit of the rules. Just don't do it.

[baalzy]

People trying to skirt rules like this should just be suspended for a a good length of time. Instead of making a rule for every single instance that can happen, players should just be punished when they try to pull bullshit.

You know if you're doing something against the spirit of the rules. Just don't do it.

[fadetree]

You know if you're doing something against the spirit of the rules. Just don't do it.

Okie dokie. Good suggestion! I'm sure this will work.

[YendorLootmonkey]

People trying to skirt rules like this should just be suspended for a a good length of time. Instead of making a rule for every single instance that can happen, players should just be punished when they try to pull bullshit.

You know if you're doing something against the spirit of the rules. Just don't do it.

This. No one ever seemed interested in pickup raids for anything other than planes clears and maybe Naggy/Vox until these raid rules got finalized. STOP. RULES. LAWYERING.

[Aaron]

Okie dokie. Good suggestion! I'm sure this will work.

After enough people eat a 6 week ban, or something similar, it will begin to work better.

[myxomatosii]

Ok but no, what if I'm in a raid and just before the mob dies I turn my head and cover my eyes. Then I'm not locked out right? I assume this is an Indiana Jones Arc of the Covenant type of thing.

As long as this is fine I have no qualms with the new system.

[JayN]

People trying to skirt rules like this should just be suspended for a a good length of time. Instead of making a rule for every single instance that can happen, players should just be punished when they try to pull bullshit.

You know if you're doing something against the spirit of the rules. Just don't do it.

And who'm will police everyone every raid? Good luck, unless GM's watch every raid or set up a dynamic to track things like these concerns

[Aaron]

And who'm will police everyone every raid? Good luck, unless GM's watch every raid or set up a dynamic to track things like these concerns

Every raid doesn't need to be policed. Why would you think that?

There are enough hall monitors on this server that people finding loopholes will be outed eventually without the need for some sort of task force.

[JayN]

so people are not guild hoping/droping for extra raids. who'm would even know, unless all raids are watched or recorded in some fashion

[Aaron]

I honestly have neither a clue what that says nor the point you're trying to make with it.

[fastboy21]

It does create a genuine grey area for folks who aren't trying to exploit the rules if they just like to "help" on other raid targets with alliance or friendly guilds.

[falkun]

Its hardly grey area. A pick-up can kill any FFA spawn without any repercussions (whether FFA by spawn or by 6-hr rule). Considering every mob will be FFA every 3 spawns, plus those that move FFA afte r6 hours, pick-ups can raid at least as often as C's and R's, if not more often.

[Yaolin]

If your guild can't kill a raid mob then...

Join up to kill it with another guild.
Recruit and grow.


If you're in a guild that has no interest in the raid scene and you do...

Leave your guild and join another one.


These seem to be pretty simple and straightforward ideas.

[JayN]

If your guild can't kill a raid mob then...

Join up to kill it with another guild.
Recruit and grow.


If you're in a guild that has no interest in the raid scene...

Leave your guild and join another one.


These seem to be pretty simple and straightforward ideas.

Lol that was the natural flow chart for people who'm wanted to raid; now not so much!

Any guild can go into restricted no, new or not?

[falkun]

If you are Class C (no one has a designation for this first spawn), you cannot drop to Class R without CSR approval.
Any guild that kills a class R target becomes an "R" guild if they were not already. They will not be allowed to kill the target again for two spawns.

What are you trying to rules lawyer? The outcomes are all covered there.

[fastboy21]

Its hardly grey area. A pick-up can kill any FFA spawn without any repercussions (whether FFA by spawn or by 6-hr rule). Considering every mob will be FFA every 3 spawns, plus those that move FFA afte r6 hours, pick-ups can raid at least as often as C's and R's, if not more often.

You're assuming that no person in a raid guild would ever tag along with a casual guild or vice-versa. That is where the grey area comes in.

[Yaolin]

Lol that was the natural flow chart for people who'm wanted to raid; now not so much!

It's still the flowchart :D and raiding is now a billion times more accessible and will not make people want to play Russian Roulette with a full chamber.

[Aaron]

Rogean already answered conundrum anyway:

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/44828163.jpg

[falkun]

You're assuming that no person in a raid guild would ever tag along with a casual guild or vice-versa. That is where the grey area comes in.

Still no grey area:
Not to get into specifics about how our system works but it was designed with a small amount of leniency for a player or two getting aggro and not locking their guild out, provided it was a failed FTE attempt or accidental aggro.

Guilds are still strongly advised to follow the rules of FTE. Let a mob reset before engaging. If you don't have the FTE shout, don't engage it.
Don't tag along. Let the little guys "earn" their way up. You can assist without getting on the aggro list. If one guy messes up, looks like you might be OK. But a group of TMO helping out a guild on Faydedar might get TMO in trouble. Just don't do it.

[JayN]

If you are Class C (no one has a designation for this first spawn), you cannot drop to Class R without CSR approval.
How does one go about doing that just /petition or does Rogean need to be consulted is there any kind of time limit or can you/guild be left in lingo forever

Any guild that kills a class R target becomes an "R" guild if they were not already. They will not be allowed to kill the target again for two spawns.

I missed the two spawn thing could you give me a link please

What are you trying to rules lawyer? The outcomes are all covered there.

Trying to clarify things not lawyer, people do not want to get banned and need to know their options.

Since EVERYTHING is changing

[fastboy21]

Still no grey area:

Don't tag along. Let the little guys "earn" their way up. You can assist without getting on the aggro list. If one guy messes up, looks like you might be OK. But a group of TMO helping out a guild on Faydedar might get TMO in trouble. Just don't do it.

I don't understand how you can keep saying that there is no grey area and then say something "might" get them in trouble. The word "might" IS the grey area...

[falkun]

Link: www.project1999.org/raid.php
Its the same link Sirken's posted in Raid discussion.
Guilds moving to R from C will likely go through the raid discussion forum, that board dedicated to raid discussion (which is what a status change is, a raid discussion). If you are not a guild leader, I wouldn't worry about it. If you are, PM CSR staff (Rogean, Sirken, Deruberael) if you want to move from C to R.
If you are worried about the clarity, stop trying to rules lawyer. If you think you can't do it, don't do it. "Better safe than sorry."

[falkun]

I don't understand how you can keep saying that there is no grey area and then say something "might" get them in trouble. The word "might" IS the grey area...

I say "might" because CSR never posted punishments, only that you "may not" do it. If you get caught, punishment is TBD. I'm not CSR, so I'm not attempting to answer what the punishment will be. However, the rule is the rule, enforcement gets into rules lawyering. Asking about "might" is asking about the enforcement, not the rule.

[JayN]

yea this making a lot of sense..... so dont raid if you dont know is my default.

So right now can you or not have alts in different guild that are raiding and raid on all your characters? ?

Or must you be in only one raiding guild with all your toons if you want to raid?

[fastboy21]

It isn't rules lawyering...when you say that it connotes to me someone is trying to find a loop hole in the wording of the rules that goes against the purpose/spirit of them.

There are folks who will be accused of breaking the rules when they sincerely did not mean to do so...they aren't rules lawyering, they are just playing to have fun and "might" get into trouble. Asking for clarification on undefined areas isn't malicious or exploitative necessarily.

[falkun]

CSR has stated they do not condone creating alt guilds for raiding additional targets. They have not stated the punishments once discovered. They have not stated how they will know (trust me, they can find out). Just don't do it and hopefully we'll never need to find out.

[Erati]

yea this making a lot of sense..... so dont raid if you dont know is my default.

So right now can you or not have alts in different guild that are raiding and raid on all your characters? ?

Or must you be in only one raiding guild with all your toons if you want to raid?

if your alt is well geared with magic resist gear and levels, willing to attend raids/earn DKP and go through the recruit period to successfully get voted in then if you are really sneaky and good at covering your tracks you are welcome to app :P

[JayN]

if your alt is well geared with magic resist gear and levels, willing to attend raids/earn DKP and go through the recruit period to successfully voted in then if you are really sneaky and good at covering your tracks you are welcome to app :P

is this a personal opinion or official stance? :p

thinking their are people already doing this and about to do this (if it is ok); it would be nice to know if theyll be punished for doing so.

[fastboy21]

I say "might" because CSR never posted punishments, only that you "may not" do it. If you get caught, punishment is TBD. I'm not CSR, so I'm not attempting to answer what the punishment will be. However, the rule is the rule, enforcement gets into rules lawyering. Asking about "might" is asking about the enforcement, not the rule.

I see what you are saying here, and it makes sense.

The reason I think it will come up is that I recall often on live, especially in velious, that small teams from top guilds would frequently help less capable/smaller guilds out for fun on many targets. The issue is going to come up.

[falkun]

Then help them after the 6-hr period. Or help them on an FFA spawn. FFA is FFA. But the rules already spell out what can and cannot be done during C and R spawns. That's what FFA is, free for ALL. All is everyone, everyone can attempt them (within the PNP).

[Erati]

is this a personal opinion or official stance? :p

thinking their are people already doing this and about to do this (if it is ok); it would be nice to know if theyll be punished for doing so.



well kind of like the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

As long as you are not blabbing on and on about your other characters and can lead successful 'double' lives without either life crossing paths then I don't see this as a major problem. However as soon as people find you out, I am sure there would be problems as joining a guild should be about joining a community/family, not about finding a place to gear up your alt because of the raid rules.

[fadetree]

After enough people eat a 6 week ban, or something similar, it will begin to work better.

Well, really I was commenting more on the difficulty of monitoring this kind of activity, not really whether people would 'do the right thing' or not, because we know that answer.

How are the devs supposed to monitor all this?

[JayN]

well kind of like the military's "Don't Ask, Don't Tell"

As long as you are not blabbing on and on about your other characters and can lead successful 'double' lives without either life crossing paths then I don't see this as a major problem. However as soon as people find you out, I am sure there would be problems as joining a guild should be about joining a community/family, not about finding a place to gear up your alt because of the raid rules.

So it is officially ok then?

Well, really I was commenting more on the difficulty of monitoring this kind of activity, not really whether people would 'do the right thing' or not, because we know that answer.

How are the devs supposed to monitor all this?

That really is the fundamental question isnt it; especially if they are to remain hands off

[YendorLootmonkey]

Well, really I was commenting more on the difficulty of monitoring this kind of activity, not really whether people would 'do the right thing' or not, because we know that answer.

How are the devs supposed to monitor all this?

They only have to monitor it once, then slap the offending guild with a 8-week ban. Will never happen again.

[YendorLootmonkey]

is this a personal opinion or official stance? :p

thinking their are people already doing this and about to do this (if it is ok); it would be nice to know if theyll be punished for doing so.

This is one great example of why there's not enough pixels to go around in the first place. Get all your toons in one guild, play them as main/alts accordingly. Stop the pixel greed trying to have a main in each raid guild, stop the subterfuge.

[Sarius]

They only have to monitor it once, then slap the offending guild with a 8-week ban. Will never happen again.

Eight weeks without pixels would completely annihilate a lot a guilds

[JayN]

This is one great example of why there's not enough pixels to go around in the first place. Get all your toons in one guild, play them as main/alts accordingly. Stop the pixel greed trying to have a main in each raid guild, stop the subterfuge.

So everyone from here on out must be a casual and in one guild if they want to raid?


need some official rulings here

[Aaron]

So everyone from here on out must be a casual and in one guild if they want to raid?


need some official rulings here

What hardcore guild allows you to raid in another guild?

[JayN]

a lot of hard-cores dont spend as much time online as most casuals for the sake of their sanity and efficiency of allotted playtime.

Many dont want to sit online with spamming nublets or tardlings spinning their wheels in place.

Many just want to raid, since that is what EQ is about for us/them..

not spamming and trolling one another or grieving

[JayN]

What hardcore guild allows you to raid in another guild?

at this point it wont matter, cause they killed there two whole mobs for the day/week.

So why not allow anyone to raid with their alts in any other guild ?

I know several guild that dont mind before all the changes

[YendorLootmonkey]

It's quicker to get loots for RMT if you have a main in each of 5 raiding guilds, I would suspect.

[Snackies]

People shouldn't be donks thinking they can "unguild" and circumvent the rules. All I'd see them getting is a banhammer.

As for folks that want to play alts in established (big keyword here - not phoney loot scoop guilds) guilds for a chance at more loots my opinion is that if they are contributing to the guild success/enjoyment of others I don't see anything wrong.

For some reason I have a hard time keeping my alts anonymous and people still figure out who I am......

[Frieza_Prexus]

This is one great example of why there's not enough pixels to go around in the first place. Get all your toons in one guild, play them as main/alts accordingly. Stop the pixel greed trying to have a main in each raid guild, stop the subterfuge.

But some of the the people asking are not trying any sort of subterfuge. In the other thread, Artaxerxius has 9% lifetime raid attendance in TMO, has two items in total on his dkp (both from 2012), and plays far more frequently with lower end guilds such as Asgard than he does TMO. Yet, he is still a member of TMO that makes about 1/10 raids while spending the majority of his time with other non-raiding guilds.

His question is extremely legitimate.

EDIT: Response is partly intended for this thread: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135176

[JayN]

It's quicker to get loots for RMT if you have a main in each of 5 raiding guilds, I would suspect.

Probably.

It also would give you a lot more raiding experience a lot quicker also.

and many other things

[JayN]

But the person asking is not trying any sort of subterfuge. Artaxerxius has 9% lifetime raid attendance in TMO, has two items in total on his dkp (both from 2012), and plays far more frequently with lower end guilds such as Asgard than he does TMO. Yet, he is still a member of TMO that makes about 1/10 raids while spending the majority of his time with other non-raiding guilds.

His question is extremely legitimate.

it is, yet staff ignore and and just let flamming pvp douches flame on

[Tasslehofp99]

Ok...so what if like someone wants to form a pickup raid and invite anyone from any guild to participare/random on drops?

Would those people that were in guilds locked out of whatever mob the pickup raid is going after be punished for joining said pickup raid?

Pickup raids are classic as fuck, would be retarded as hell if they were outlawed under this new raid agreement.

[Vandy]

Guess they could go for FFA mobs, I think in the class R cycle anything done will be autolocked out.

[Daldaen]

Ok...so what if like someone wants to form a pickup raid and invite anyone from any guild to participare/random on drops?

Would those people that were in guilds locked out of whatever mob the pickup raid is going after be punished for joining said pickup raid?

Pickup raids are classic as fuck, would be retarded as hell if they were outlawed under this new raid agreement.

Yet no pick up raids ever happened on this server with any sort of reasonable frequency before these restrictions were put in place...

Not (P99) classic.

But seriously. If your guild is locked out from it and a pickup raid goes, you should be able to attend just not win any loot.

[falkun]

Tassle, PUGs were never an issue before this agreement, why are they now? Also, there's a whole third of the spawns (excluding VP) dedicated to PUGs, that third "1" that is designated FFA, not to mention the mobs that go FFA after being left up for 6hrs. If FFA did not preclude PUGs before, why would it preclude them now?

You are intentionally being dense.

As for Xasten's Artaxerxius example, that case is covered. Before under FFA/FTE only, he'd raid 32khp mobs with TMO and do planes with Asgard. Now, he can raid 32khp mobs with TMO and do planes with Asgard, or he can raid 32khp mobs with Asgard and do planes with Asgard. I suspect he only raided with TMO in the first place to see the content because he would not see it with Asgard. Now that he has an opportunity to see the content with Asgard, he might be more inclined to leave TMO. The difference between before and now: that is a viable option!

[drktmplr12]

With the # of level 50s I would not be surprised to see a pickup for vox/nagafen.

Idk about the other stuff. Maybe draco or maestro during a plane clear if the group is organized.

Free Roll pickup raid should not count against a guild if they host it. It should switch classification of the next spawn though. Just my opinion.

Perhaps this conversation is already dead though.

[Tasslehofp99]

Tassle, PUGs were never an issue before this agreement, why are they now? Also, there's a whole third of the spawns (excluding VP) dedicated to PUGs, that third "1" that is designated FFA, not to mention the mobs that go FFA after being left up for 6hrs. If FFA did not preclude PUGs before, why would it preclude them now?

You are intentionally being dense.

As for Xasten's Artaxerxius example, that case is covered. Before under FFA/FTE only, he'd raid 32khp mobs with TMO and do planes with Asgard. Now, he can raid 32khp mobs with TMO and do planes with Asgard, or he can raid 32khp mobs with Asgard and do planes with Asgard. I suspect he only raided with TMO in the first place to see the content because he would not see it with Asgard. Now that he has an opportunity to see the content with Asgard, he might be more inclined to leave TMO. The difference between before and now: that is a viable option!



Am I being dense? I've always wanted to run pickup raids, and now the raid scene agreement actually makes it somewhat feasible. Don't believe me?

Here is a post(made last august) I made discussing an idea of mine regarding PUG type raids open to the server: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118919

I'm not being purposely dense, but you're intentionally being an asshole know-it-all. I genuinely have always wanted to run pickup raids, and I don't see why they should be outlawed as now the raid scene is perfectly set up for them.

[Daldaen]

Am I being dense? I've always wanted to run pickup raids, and now the raid scene agreement actually makes it somewhat feasible. Don't believe me?

Here is a post(made last august) I made discussing an idea of mine regarding PUG type raids open to the server: http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118919

I'm not being purposely dense, but you're intentionally being an asshole know-it-all. I genuinely have always wanted to run pickup raids, and I don't see why they should be outlawed as now the raid scene is perfectly set up for them.

Sure run em and restrict pixel awarding to those in guilds not locked out from said mobs IMO.

[Frieza_Prexus]

The idea that people in multiple guilds should be locked out is, in my opinion, absurd. The only guilds that people are worried about are FE and TMO. Almost all of the active members of those guilds have no desire to do this on any level. Even those that do will likely not be seeing loot. Even if they did, they just spent a LOT of time working up DKP in both guilds, it's utterly inefficient.

Yes, if a guild splits in half just to get around the bag limit or whatever certainly action should be taken. That's not likely to happen. The argument that multi-guild raiders will be doing so for RMT purposes is equally absurd. Most RMT'd gear comes from EC trading and farmable camps. Not dragon raids.

Guilds are locked out of raids because it prevents other guilds from seeing that content. However, if a lower tier guild manages to kill a mob who they give the loot to is their prerogative. The only issue that makes any sense to me is if a higher-end guild props up a lower end guilds with a massive donation of players and resources to enable their kills in exchange for loot. This kind of quid pro quo can be dealt with easily. Don't penalize the guy that just wants to make as many raids as he can.

[uygi]

Pickup raids have happened when there was an environment that allowed for it. The first outdoor VP kills were pickup raids, BDA organized some for TMO's last suspension of 2012, and around a year ago there was a Naggy pop in the early morning that ended up being a BDA/FE/TMO pickup raid cus there was no other way to get enough people.

I'd probably define pickup raid as a raid where anyone is invited and loot is all random.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I think the concerns are the massive Class C alt armies dropping tags and conveniently showing up for "pickup raids" as a loophole.

[Geofizzle]

I think the concerns are the massive Class C alt armies dropping tags and conveniently showing up for "pickup raids" as a loophole.

Controlling people's behavior is the only way. We need total 100% control over how and when people play EQ so we can control their motives and pixel lust. This is the only way we can retain "FUN" in this "VIDEO GAME". I have several PDFs on how this can be done if GMs or BDA leadership wants to PM me I'll gladly share.

[Erati]

Ok...so what if like someone wants to form a pickup raid and invite anyone from any guild to participare/random on drops?

Would those people that were in guilds locked out of whatever mob the pickup raid is going after be punished for joining said pickup raid?

Pickup raids are classic as fuck, would be retarded as hell if they were outlawed under this new raid agreement.

why didn't you try to do this kind of stuff before these rules is my only question

acting like this new agreement ( which allows many more formal opportunities for pick up raiding) is hindering something that never made it to fruition under the old system is kind of silly.

Note: I read that you said somewhere that you 'tried' to set up some pick up raids, so I might have missed if one of these actually happened, in which case my apology.

And a 'pick up' dungeon crawl raid doesn't count.

[Tasslehofp99]

why didn't you try to do this kind of stuff before these rules is my only question

acting like this new agreement ( which allows many more formal opportunities for pick up raiding) is hindering something that never made it to fruition under the old system is kind of silly.

Note: I read that you said somewhere that you 'tried' to set up some pick up raids, so I might have missed if one of these actually happened, in which case my apology.


And a 'pick up' dungeon crawl raid doesn't count.

I've done some minor pickup raids but prior to this agreement the amount of coordination/organization required to go after any mobs of substance was a little bit out of hand. Now that some mobs are more open/available, I see no reason why pickup raids should be excluded from going after them.

In particular, some of the easier mobs like Maestro/Faydedar/VS/Draco are all easily killed by any 15-20 people. Why can't people who aren't interested in joining any of the current guilds for whatever reason help form pickup raids (inviting anyone who wants to come) and go after these easier targets? :confused:

[Erati]

I've done some minor pickup raids but prior to this agreement the amount of coordination/organization required to go after any mobs of substance was a little bit out of hand. Now that some mobs are more open/available, I see no reason why pickup raids should be excluded from going after them.

In particular, some of the easier mobs like Maestro/Faydedar/VS/Draco are all easily killed by any 15-20 people. Why can't people who aren't interested in joining any of the current guilds for whatever reason help form pickup raids (inviting anyone who wants to come) and go after these easier targets? :confused:

they can, but the more sought after targets you listed there ( Fay and VS) will more than likely have a Class R guild that is preparing for them so the pick up raid will have to deal with a little competition

If you are talking about the 'classic' pick up raid scenario where a mob spawns and the organizer sends tells /shouts etc to many zones, gathers his force and crawls through the dungeon to slay the mob.....then this is already achievable very easily with this new raiding system. I have already stated that Naggy and Vox will both have Class R spawns deemed for 'pick up' raiding. When this happens those dragons will be left up for 4 hours and anyone can organize and kill them.

Heck it can be worked out for them to be left up EVEN longer if the Tier C guilds let them live that long.

The more contested/sought after mobs however will be very hard to do a pick-up raid and will most likely have to join guilds to kill. The Tier R guilds have rarely seen these mobs themselves and are chomping at the bit just to experience them.

Theres nothing stopping the Tier C guilds also letting their mobs go to be 'pick up' designated. No Tier R guilds will touch the Class C mobs in fear of turning into a C guild so if you work it out between the other C's then you can have your Pick Up raid slots just as easy as the R's can.

This system allows for it very easy. What it doesn't allow is for many random guilded people to join in on this fun without getting their guilds locked out. Thats where I agree with you and your sentiments.

[Bruman]

There are currently NINE guilds who consider themselves Tier R (even though many have not yet gotten a kill to officially tag them as such on the raid tracker).

There's not really room for pickup groups, but PLENTY of guilds to chose from.

[Clark]

They only have to monitor it once, then slap the offending guild with a 8-week ban. Will never happen again.