AA Points

[drktmplr12]

I am interested to hear arguments for and against AA points being implemented. I understand the server is no where near even considering this. Lets put that aside for now.

Here is my take:

Pros
Allows a means to buff crappy classes
Incentive to have players choose a main character
Provides measurable progress post 60

Cons
AAs are another aspect that can potentially be exploited
Creates an additional barrier to entry for raid guilds
Client may not allow to add, remove, or alter AAs
Additional overhead for server staff

A short story with a TLDR:

See Shards of Dalaya for AAs gone wrong (IMO). That game is great. But it suffers from too much horizontal progression. It got to the point where you couldn't be considered for a raid guild until you got 200 AAs which is alot of work. Not to mention, when they ran out of AAs to program they added a feature called tomes which extended AAs further, only they each required like 100AAs to complete.

Next thing you know guilds were asking people to have 5 tomes to enter a raiding. It was ridiculous and why I quit the game. I earned level 65, 100 AAs, and still there was no market for me to tank any appropriate content (500-600 online prime time). There was such a great divide between: those with 500 AAs and 10 tomes, and those who would burn out trying to catch up in a race they started 1-2 years late. No one wants a tier 1 tank when they can just group with their t12 tank and crush everything. And how do you think those who have 500 AAs and 20-30 tomes feel about revamping the system? I wouldn't like it either.

TLDR; AAs are dangerous if not implemented with the long term in mind.

Having that experience, I am against anything that creates an unrealistic barrier to entry for the new guy that just hit level 60. But for anything that helps bring less played classes into their own role in a fun, meaningful way.

What are your thoughts?

[Durothil Skyreaver]

I always found AAs to be a barrier against playing alts. I felt compelled to XP for those AAs in order to stay competitive. I'm content not to have AAs, even though some of them are very awesome.

[Artaenc]

I always found AAs to be a barrier against playing alts. I felt compelled to XP for those AAs in order to stay competitive. I'm content not to have AAs, even though some of them are very awesome.

[Tewaz]

I love it. Bring on the AA's.

[loramin]

I actually just made a post saying about the same thing in another thread. Here's a bit of it:

Now don't get me wrong, I loved the AAs themselves (Cann V for the win), and I enjoy leveling, but the SOE developers specifically made AAs to be a giant timesink.

AAs changed [normal leveling pressure] to "never stop XPing, or you'll fall even farther behind then you already are." I guess they could be cool on P99, but it would really depend on how they were implemented.

[Swish]

I was a shammie on live, and loved the rather useless but fun AA of sending in an extra 4 pets to the macro "release the hounds" ;)

[nilbog]

I am interested to hear arguments for and against AA points being implemented.

Personally, I never liked the grind level 51 x times approach..

Don't take what I'm about to say as gospel, but if custom content is created post-Velious, I'd like to see the class-defining AAs introduced as epic quests.

[Clark]

Once Velious is expended I'd love to see Luclin and AA's. Would be classic.

[Frieza_Prexus]

if custom content is created post-Velious, I'd like to see the class-defining AAs introduced as epic quests.

http://i.imgur.com/utHRvKz.gif

[Tenlaar]

if custom content is created post-Velious, I'd like to see the class-defining AAs introduced as epic quests.

Wonder how much certain groups of cockblockers would charge for those MQs...

[YendorLootmonkey]

Every ranger pining away for AAs. Specifically two of them. You know the ones. :(

[Swish]

Every ranger pining away for AAs. Specifically two of them. You know the ones. :(

Taking a DT should be part of the epic quest for them ;)

[whitebandit]

http://i.imgur.com/utHRvKz.gif

lmao
<3

[nilbog]

Wonder how much certain groups of cockblockers would charge for those MQs...

Ahem.. excuse my non-specificness. These types of things in custom world should not be MQ-able imo, and should involve more participation than loot.

[Llodd]

Personally, I never liked the grind level 51 x times approach..

Don't take what I'm about to say as gospel, but if custom content is created post-Velious, I'd like to see the class-defining AAs introduced as epic quests.

Brilliant.

[Clark]

Taking a DT should be part of the epic quest for them ;)

lol

[jaybone]

Personally, I never liked the grind level 51 x times approach..

Don't take what I'm about to say as gospel, but if custom content is created post-Velious, I'd like to see the class-defining AAs introduced as epic quests.
Need Sol not custom content.

[cyryllis]

i would love epic quests for AAs

(or even some sort of quest series for run 3....)

[drktmplr12]

http://i.imgur.com/rmmYHQi.png
I started a post with almost 3 pages on an elf simulator forum!

It would be excellent to see some alternative advancement that didn't involve grind level 51 a bunch of times.

Perhaps (don't freak out) some type of specialization quest. Want to be a monk specialized in pulling? how about dps instead? maybe a better pseudo tank?

Make it a choice that you can return from, but not too easily.

[Byrjun]

The quest idea is cool, but I really liked how AAs gave your character direct power over a period of time (like leveling, but specified). Doing something like an epic quest for Canni 5 sounds cool and all, but having to grind out several quests for each rank of Healing Affinity, Critical Healing, Improved Defense, etc. sound nearly as tedious as just sitting in an exp group. And I don't see much reason to implement AAs without implementing nearly the whole thing (some shit was just completely useless like Rabid Bear).

[Comapavik]

I liked the AA system in EQ2. You could only earn a certain amount of points, I think it was capped at like 30, and had to choose what you wanted to spend them on. You couldn't get every AA. You got 1 free respec and then it cost plat after that, with each time being more expensive. Let you kind of customize your character.

[Swish]

The quest idea is cool, but I really liked how AAs gave your character direct power over a period of time (like leveling, but specified). Doing something like an epic quest for Canni 5 sounds cool and all, but having to grind out several quests for each rank of Healing Affinity, Critical Healing, Improved Defense, etc. sound nearly as tedious as just sitting in an exp group. And I don't see much reason to implement AAs without implementing nearly the whole thing (some shit was just completely useless like Rabid Bear).

canni5 was 9 AAs wasn't it? I remember grinding that out for ages :p

[Daldaen]

Canni5 also required... some weird prereq. Maybe Mental Clarity 3 (FT). Which required you spend 6 points in general tab (Run3 / Regen3).

[heartbrand]

What I enjoyed about AA's was that they kept you playing the game. Right now when you're max gear / level, there's not much to do. This leaves behind newer players who then find trouble getting groups. It also creates more opportunities for pvp on a pvp server since people are playing more and grouping more. However, AA's are not balanced for velious and you would need to introduce them with more challenging content.

[Seltius]

I love this post thank you Nilbog for clarifying that im glad its being considered and I like the way you think. On that note why add bitterness to a thread that is pretty awesome? Let it go things have and are changing its not worth holding on to it and trying to reintroduce it.

[Protheus]

AA's ruined the game in several ways

[heartbrand]

AA's gave me a way to progress my character while helping others.

[Rhambuk]

Personally, I never liked the grind level 51 x times approach..

Don't take what I'm about to say as gospel, but if custom content is created post-Velious, I'd like to see the class-defining AAs introduced as epic quests.

Always good to hear the team talk about post velious content.

I like the idea of aa's i just didn't like some AA's, it just expands the gap between certain classes and skews the lines of class definition imo.

I remember rogues getting escape 72 minute agro wipe, and bards getting fading memories which is full agro wipe but (correct me if im wrong) near instant recast only a mana cost component. Seeing bards zone in with selos, train all the way to the bottom of a dungeon and then FM while I would have to sos sneak all the way down with only 1 chance to wipe agro while the bard would have several opportunities to wipe agro.

wizard manaburn groups...nough said.

in short, id like to see aa's but hope that they arent too overpowering or allows for classes to completely obliterate content over other class's

[Daldaen]

Bard Fading Memories was a PoP era AA, which cost 900 mana. With bards only having FT effects work on their mana (no clarity or PotG or bard mana etc.)... this meant fades were very rare.

I'd bet in Velious bards with full raid gear would have <3k Mana, meaning they would have at most 3 fades and regaining mana to fade another time would take 10min+ per fade.

Bard pulling during PoP was some of the most fun I had while raiding though. Cause you could burn through 4-5 fades but if you did that you had to wait 20min with a raid force twiddling their thumbs while you regenned.

AAs were one of the best additions to game easily. Always felt like your exp was working for something.

[Rhambuk]

thats still 3 fades per 10 minutes compared to a rogues #2 aa ability on a once per 72 minute reuse.

there was just no need to slap rogues in the face by giving bards this unnecessary ability and when things like that start to happen are when im probably going to quit p99.

[Daldaen]

thats still 3 fades per 10 minutes compared to a rogues #2 aa ability on a once per 72 minute reuse.

there was just no need to slap rogues in the face by giving bards this unnecessary ability and when things like that start to happen are when im probably going to quit p99.

No thats 1 fade per 10 minutes and 3 fades with a full mana pool.

Rogues aren't really pullers, bards are and Fade suited them to fill that role more often.

[M.J.]

AA's gave me a way to progress my character while helping others.

AAs allowed raid geared players to back farm trivial content solo. For every awesome 60 warrior with raid gear and a bunch of AA bringing along a lowbie snarer / healer and boosting a group you'll have 8 more hybrid melees doing old cash camps solo and competing with legit lowbie groups over experience and not just loot. Lower Guk is a good example of this type of content bottleneck.

You'll also have power farmers which aren't going to do anything except make the gap between casual and hardcore even more massive.

A middle ground to the AA / quest idea would be some sort of mentor system that allows people to temporarily lower their level and require them to be grouped with people around that actual level to gain AA experience. Each level range of experience would unlock one rank of an ability. So AA gained while mentoring 8-20 would get you rank 1, 21-30 rank 2, etc. Now add in solo / duo quests to gain access to the ability and you have a personally satisfying quest that increased interaction with other players, or just helped level your friends alts.

LUCLIN RANT BELOW

The reason Luclin was such an awful expansion was because the raid scene was impenetrable to casuals, and it had massive zones with content no one besides bards and people with mounts would ever see. However beastlords were the shit, and AA allowed you to focus on a character you loved but had otherwise become an aimless auction bot and cash farmer once you had BiS. Stat inflation, stratifying the player base, and reducing player interactions are all things that happened because of Luclin.

[DrKvothe]

Can anybody direct me to a list of the sort of class-defining AAs nilbog might have been referring to? I didn't play past early velious.

[heartbrand]

I think luclin would be far different here. On live maybe only 5% of your server pop was max level end gamers. Here it's far higher.

[Coridan]

When Luclin went live the mid level zones from classic went completely vacant. Everyone was in Echo, Netherbian, Dawnshroud. The Karanas are too quiet as it is. New zones should be added in one at a time after Velious. Warrens, Stonebrunt, Jaggedpine, Unkempt, and then reuse Luclin zones for places in the EQRPg book and the map that aren't in game (Rujarkian, Loping Plains)

[Laok]

thats still 3 fades per 10 minutes compared to a rogues #2 aa ability on a once per 72 minute reuse.

there was just no need to slap rogues in the face by giving bards this unnecessary ability and when things like that start to happen are when im probably going to quit p99.

It wasn't useless to bards. It helped define us as a pulling class. Saved many a raid, Fade did.

Rogues are pure DPS, the purest. Bards are hybrids that can fill any role (well, most roles, and in classic, no one role was really defined by bards, they were just OK at everything), but Fade actually gave them a singular role in a group. Pulling.

It was VERY mana intensive as bards only regen one mana per tick standing and 2 sitting EVER (until FT items anyway, so chanters save your mana, don't C bards :) )

[justin2090]

If velious is the stopping point I wouldn't see any problem with AA's. They would give something else to strive for after everything has went stale. I really can't speculate much because I don't know what custom content will be released.

On the topic of custom content, I think would be unique to gain an AA token instead dinging. You could use the token for 1 AA point or trade it to other players. It would be something that would never depreciate in value, and it could be an alternate route to gaining an epic (or other expensive item) for those solo'rs out there.

[Unidus]

Epics won't be a problem to get in Velious. If AA's were to be implemented then having multiple methods of getting them would be the best way. Exp based AA gain, quest based AA gain, and a random rare drop token from any 50+ mob.

[Waedawen]

What are your thoughts?
NOPE.

NEVER.

THAT IS NOT. GOING TO HAPPEN!

8 more hybrid melees doing old cash camps solo and competing with legit lowbie groups over experience and not just loot. You'll also have power farmers which aren't going to do anything except make the gap between casual and hardcore even more massive. Stat inflation, stratifying the player base, and reducing player interactions are all things that happened because of Luclin.

And that is why. We don't need AA's. We don't need Luclin. We just need to let Nilbog and Rogean make really fucking cool sand castles for us to play with because it's their sand box and we're just playing in it.

The custom content long after Velious is going to be 10x better than any shitty AA or Luclin bullshit.

[drktmplr12]

I wouldn't contend that we need AAs or Luclin.

I think there should be a form of character advancement for the new content that goes beyond kill harder targets for better gear. People are going to want new abilities that define their role.

As I stated eariler, new abilities that allow you to specialize your role would be very interesting. However only allowing one specialization at a time that can't be changed immediately.

Perhaps a druid wants to be better at nuking and lose some utility in healing to gain that? Or a warrior wants to focus on damage instead of tanking. A ranger on archery instead of dying.

I vote for rangers getting an ability that absorbs 1 death touch.

[Xelris]

Shroud of Stealth would be a nice band-aid fix to rogue issues. Escape would be nice but it's not really critical to the class.

I always felt Dire Charm was unnecessary for the classes that got it but it's not a bad flavor ability.

Endless Quiver and improved archery gave people a reason to play ranger, and this really should make a return in some way, shape or form.

Fading Memories I'm kinda torn on. At the time, I felt it encroached on monk territory by a class that was more reactive-CC territory (like an enchanter), but it did have some interesting game effects.

I do miss Gather Mana and AA Harvest. Great recovery and "nuke more" abilities that didn't overpower the classes.

Mass Group Buff should be a thing again too. Nice little boost to "racing" guilds and removes some degree of frustration from buffers... or if clerics are again given a group celestial, a raid-saving ability.

[Rhambuk]

Shroud of Stealth would be a nice band-aid fix to rogue issues. Escape would be nice but it's not really critical to the class.

I always felt Dire Charm was unnecessary for the classes that got it but it's not a bad flavor ability.

Endless Quiver and improved archery gave people a reason to play ranger, and this really should make a return in some way, shape or form.

Fading Memories I'm kinda torn on. At the time, I felt it encroached on monk territory by a class that was more reactive-CC territory (like an enchanter), but it did have some interesting game effects.

I do miss Gather Mana and AA Harvest. Great recovery and "nuke more" abilities that didn't overpower the classes.

Mass Group Buff should be a thing again too. Nice little boost to "racing" guilds and removes some degree of frustration from buffers... or if clerics are again given a group celestial, a raid-saving ability.

there are a great many aa that would benefit the game, but like you, i feel that there are certain aa that should not be added because they would "encroach" on another classes role.

[Unidus]

Shroud of Stealth would be a nice band-aid fix to rogue issues. Escape would be nice but it's not really critical to the class.

I always felt Dire Charm was unnecessary for the classes that got it but it's not a bad flavor ability.

Endless Quiver and improved archery gave people a reason to play ranger, and this really should make a return in some way, shape or form.

Fading Memories I'm kinda torn on. At the time, I felt it encroached on monk territory by a class that was more reactive-CC territory (like an enchanter), but it did have some interesting game effects.

I do miss Gather Mana and AA Harvest. Great recovery and "nuke more" abilities that didn't overpower the classes.

Mass Group Buff should be a thing again too. Nice little boost to "racing" guilds and removes some degree of frustration from buffers... or if clerics are again given a group celestial, a raid-saving ability.

Fading memories is just an oh shit button for bards that you can do a few times an hour. It's a minor ability just there to prevent me from losing Exp when the monk pulls to much shit.

[Psionide]

Didn't Rogean say the code for AAs was all ripped out and thus we would never see them implemented?

[Xelris]

AAs as they were are gone but that doesn't mean you can't add buttons with abilities on them, as one of the devs posted, a quest reward. This really can go in a lot of directions depending on what they're aiming for.

[Darksinga]

Realistically, this is the only server that could handle Luclin. Every other server wouldn't have the numbers to even contend the weaker mobs in this xpac. Raiding, this expansion was by far the hardest and most time consuming.

[Gustoo]

Realistically, the only thing I could see post Velious, is custom content.

Custom AA's for fun

Some custom zones

Custom items

Stuff that doesn't crap all over the rest of the entire game like luclin did.

[Xelris]

Realistically, the only thing I could see post Velious, is custom content.

Custom AA's for fun

Some custom zones

Custom items

Stuff that doesn't crap all over the rest of the entire game like luclin did.

This discussion has already been hashed out, but from what I gathered most people liked Luclin minus the bazaar, horses, Beastlords, kitty city, overly-good lowbie zones, new models and AA debate.

Rip all that shit out and the meat of the expansion was quite good on its own... LOTS of high-end group and raid content in a good progression path following Velious. And nothing slows down an over-competitive raid scene than 100 million hp mobs with 10k AC, not to mention a grueling key quest, standing in your way to candy land... I think the raids we did on live during this expansion realistically took 10-12 hours, if memory serves. Good times.

Anyhow, that's moot. Custom content can include something similar to AAs being added just as easily, and with our extended hindsight can be tweaked to near-balance compared to the initial release of those abilities.

[Telin]

In the future, I also wouldn't be opposed to custom content. It would need to be Something in the spirit of classic. Perhaps certain AA abilities could be quest rewards rather than grinding. Maybe custom trade-skills or quests that could upgrade existing items and gear. Planes of Power zones are okay if they can be integrated without the stones. Perhaps custom Druid and wizard portals or connect them to Norrath in other ways like a boat to plane of tranquility lol. I would skip pok. Custom world bosses and events would keep players occupied as well.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

This discussion has already been hashed out, but from what I gathered most people liked Luclin minus the bazaar, horses, Beastlords, kitty city, overly-good lowbie zones, new models and AA debate.

Rip all that shit out and the meat of the expansion was quite good on its own... LOTS of high-end group and raid content in a good progression path following Velious. And nothing slows down an over-competitive raid scene than 100 million hp mobs with 10k AC, not to mention a grueling key quest, standing in your way to candy land... I think the raids we did on live during this expansion realistically took 10-12 hours, if memory serves. Good times.

Anyhow, that's moot. Custom content can include something similar to AAs being added just as easily, and with our extended hindsight can be tweaked to near-balance compared to the initial release of those abilities.

Ornate White Bridle was one of my high points in Luclin. Really shouldn't take that one away :P

[Buellen]

On the subject of custom content i believe their was another thread while back that discussed possibly bypassing luclin and straight to pop minus plane of knowledge ?

i remember reading that thread had some excellent ideas.

just some thoughts.

[Giovanni]

Luclin made no sense (Cats on the moon?)

[Bazia]

AA although impossible to implement according to Rogean would be a fantastic alternative to endless alt grinding.

[myriverse]

Luclin made no sense (Cats on the moon?)
Makes as much sense as anything else.

[Coridan]

Who cares if they were on the moon, they had no unique flavor about them. Agnostics who welcomed and were welcomed by everyone, there was no culture or anything interesting about the Vah shir.

Compare with the Kerra, a beaten down, primitive race trying to eeke out a happy life despite being a mere remnant of their former selves. It drew strong comparisons to native americans and polynesians, a role rarely explored Tolkien based fantasy. I was very vocal in demanding playable Kerra way beck, not because of furry, bit because they were interesting. I rolled a Vah Shir, never got him past 20ish. One of the reasons I left for CoH.

[phacemeltar]

Luclin made no sense (Cats on the moon?)

what doesnt make sense about that?

[dalaimoc]

on AA:
AAs were a great way to progress characters without skyrocketing character max.levels.
Personally i would love to see them implemented.

However it would be more useful if you could start to get AAs from Lv 10 on. The quest idea is good, but considering the "abuse" of MQable Epics, these quests should be well thought through.

on bazaar:
I love the EC tunnel, but i still love the comfort of the baazar. So why not combine both ?
have the EC tunnel be the baazar (as a zone), make the vendoring zones pathable/spawnable by aggroing mobs, however dont let mobs from outside being pulled there (not sure if this can be coded at all). Put in a /bodyguard option for players to setup a watch for traders who in return can pay the bodyguards.
Keep in a low level zone. This would offer newer players a nice option to make some plat.

on Luclin:

since Nilbog mentioned it - when is ETA ? :D


Slothbynature Lazybutt - Certified Porter and Item Transferer

[phacemeltar]

make AA's from level 10.. then maybe we can get a tank in unrest and i dont have to do it.

[Twainz]

As a bard on red, Fading memories makes me hard. I remember playing a bard on live during Underfoot. I was in charge of pulling the whole Badger Badger Mushroom Mushroom event :D. I pulled for all my exp groups. It really made bards stand out a lot more which made the class 10x more fun.