Bard or Ranger for a 4 man group?

[MikeXG]

Man, it is great to be back on the p99 servers. My friends and I took a break for about a year and a half and are just coming back this week. We decided to make a 4 person group. So far we have a druid healer, an enchanter, and either a pally tank or maybe a monk tank (my friend is looking into the logistics of how viable a monk tank is) and then my character. I am torn between, you guessed it, a Bard or a Ranger. I already have a 19 bard and 10 ranger so I would use one of them. I just cant decide which compliments the group more. We will need DPS so I am leaning towards ranger, however we already have a druid so some spell overlap there (not the end of the world though) BUT if the tank decides to go Monk (again not sure how viable that is) that would bring the group DPS up a decent amount, and maybe bard would be more beneficial at that point? Some other deciding factors for me are, I dont have a lot of time to play and whatever character I pick for this 4 man group I would only play within this 4 man group. Most likely 1 session a week for several hours. In my spare time I still would like to hop on and play here and there, part of me wants the bard for that solo time 1, because they can solo kite really well and 2, they can get groups fairly easily. If I play the bard in the 4 man group, I would not want to solo with the ranger so I would most likely keep playing my rogue, although they suck at soloing also....

I guess I am just super overwhelmed with the good memories of everquest. I played live since launch all the way up to POP and whatever Xpac came after that.

Anyway, any advice, insight, suggestions are appreciated (and any info on my friend monk tanking?)

Thanks

-MXG

[SamwiseRed]

tldr

bard

[Zubek]

Everyone will get on here and say bard bard bard blah blah blah.
I played a bard on live from '00 til just a couple of years ago. Bard is a lot of fun, can solo, makes groups better, etc....
But saying all of that, for the 4 man group you are wanting to run, go Ranger.
Rangers can solo, and will be able to fear kite animals come velious, and they do a lot more DPS than a bard.
You're going for druid healer instead of cleric or shaman, this means weaker heals and regen. The monk can tank sure, but that Pally is going to give much better threat generation and let you the Ranger go balls to the wall without pulling threat. You've got slows with the Chanter so that will help if you go Monk tank, but will drain more mana if the chanter is doing debuffs, hastes, slows, and charming...... probably not as much of a big deal at higher levels, but still.

Pally, Druid, Enchanter, Ranger sounds pretty good to me.

Unless of course you go Monk and let your friend tank with Pally......... that sounds even better :)

[MikeXG]

Hmm, Never realized rangers could solo, totally forgot about fear animal.

Can Rogues solo at all with the fear they get if they use a snare proc weapon(or any other method)?

@Samewisered, Forgive my ignorance, what does "tldr" stand for?

@Zubek, I agree, monk pally chanter druid would be awesome, however I've played monk (or the equivalent) in every game I've ever played, and was itching to do something different this go around.

Thanks for the replies.

[Tenlaar]

tldr

bard

I'm also highly offended that you didn't even consider using the bard for the group's tank.

[Gustoo]

Hmm, Never realized rangers could solo, totally forgot about fear animal.



Remember this spell only gets added in velious. Panic Animal.

[Mandalore93]

Bard will add more utility and power to the group at pretty much every level.

[SamwiseRed]

still didnt read but for whatever you are doing, a bard will be 10x more helpful than a ranger. bards amplify everyone in the group and most importantly lessen downtime.

[Tecmos Deception]

I'd go with bard, personally. But it's a pretty close call.

The trio you're starting with covers so many "required" things for a group and is even redundant with some of them already, so a lot of the bard's versatility will be unused a lot of the time. But that aside, even though the bard doesn't bring as much damage as the ranger, he will make a better puller in dungeons + his hp regen, mana regen, and resists songs are all awesome assets in a group without cleric heals.

Style points and +dps for the ranger though. The group will work fine with either class, I just think it'd be "stronger" overall with the bard.

[Nytch]

Also remember a Ranger can step in and off tank if the enchanter runs oom and cant CC (bards can mez i suppose) Ranger can snare so no runners (this way the druid doesn't have to) Rangers can do very minor spot healing if they need to. Ranger can also use Snare Kiting and root to CC if you need to...

Bards will be better pullers and when shit hits the fan you can always AOE MEZ (until lvl 35 anyway).

As a Ranger you wont have to destroy your wrist and finger twisting songs.....

both have 40% XP penalty so that doesn't matter.

If you are started from zero a ranger will be easier to buy gear for, everyone has a bard alt to swarm kite so gear prices are a tad higher.

[SamwiseRed]

Also remember a Ranger can step in and off tank if the enchanter runs oom and cant CC (bards can mez i suppose) Ranger can snare so no runners (this way the druid doesn't have to) Rangers can do very minor spot healing if they need to. Ranger can also use Snare Kiting and root to CC if you need to...

Bards will be better pullers and when shit hits the fan you can always AOE MEZ (until lvl 35 anyway).

As a Ranger you wont have to destroy your wrist and finger twisting songs.....

both have 40% XP penalty so that doesn't matter.

If you are started from zero a ranger will be easier to buy gear for, everyone has a bard alt to swarm kite so gear prices are a tad higher.

id argue that bards can hold agro just as well with their slow/snare song. mobs dont like that. also bard snare is superior to ranger snare speed wise and like i said above one of the snares has a slow component. although rangers can spot heal, in between pulls equipping a lute and playing your 2-3 regen songs will heal everyone up very quickly.

[Nytch]

But rangers can tank better than a bard in a situation where an off tank is needed. Especially with a druid healing....

[Tecmos Deception]

Imo basically none of the stuff Nytch said is right. I mean, sure, rangers can offtank and snare and root and heal and pull. But bards can do all of that stuff except root (and who cares, since all three of the other classes in the group can root too), and they do it better overall, and they bring more to the table also, and they aren't reliant on gear to the extent a ranger is.

[MikeXG]

Appreciate all the replies, I forgot how great the p99 community is.

I am leaning towards bard, I was on him last night and just the utility alone is great. I never "enjoyed" swarm kiting so a static group is a good alternative.

I think my tank friend decided to be ballsy and go Monk tank.... we will see how that pans out.

Only issue I have now is gearing my bard. When I played a year or so ago he died and out of classic eq frustration I never got his corpse >_< any suggestions on how to gear one out on the cheap?

[Mandalore93]

Bard will basically make sure there is no downtime. My main reason for bard is that the druid will have difficulties healing during certain stretches and the bard Regen for both health and mana. Not to mention the back up cc that the bard provides. Plus I doubt that the group will always have four members on everyone and bard utility will really shine through.

[Tenlaar]

Imo basically none of the stuff Nytch said is right.

Please, listen to Tecmos and not Nytch.

A bard can main tank, so of course a bard can offtank as well. A bard can CC both melee AND caster mobs. A bard can bring better DPS than a ranger or monk when you're fighting more than one mob at a time. A bard can pre-slow on pulls. A bard can put your resists through the roof. A bard gives your group better than C2 mana regen and better than chloro (better than chloro + fungi, with a lute) HP regen. And if he's good, a bard can do all of those at the same time.

A ranger can...root and do weak offheals.

[Tecmos Deception]

A bard can bring better DPS than a ranger or monk when you're fighting more than one mob at a time.

This is a good point actually. I always forget bards can charm for a mix of CC and DPS because I was never a good enough bard to do it. I blame AE kiting (and low-hp kiting too) for me being relatively mediocre as a bard!

Bard = highest skillcap on p99, for sure. It is easier to be a terrible bard than a terribly anything else, but if you give a godly player a bard he can do ridiculous things.


Monk instead of pally doesn't change my opinions really.

[Laok]

id argue that bards can hold agro just as well with their slow/snare song. mobs dont like that. also bard snare is superior to ranger snare speed wise and like i said above one of the snares has a slow component. although rangers can spot heal, in between pulls equipping a lute and playing your 2-3 regen songs will heal everyone up very quickly.

I unintentionally rip agro from SKs all the time. Selo's consonant chain and 1 chant, and someone would REALLY have to try hard to take agro from me. Bards can be a bit squishey, but really, the biggest part of tanking is holding agro and correctly positioning mobs so that the dps and pets are at its back (positioning is a huge pet peeve of mine lol). Bards aren't great dps on their own, so putting the bard in front of the mob isn't a big deal and putting the monk in back will improve his dps, and you'll out agro him all day long.

[Malone88]

Imo basically none of the stuff Nytch said is right.
Disagree.
Bards and Rangers don't have XP penalties?
Bards are way easier to play than Rangers?
Bards aren't better pullers?

Not really sure what Nytch said that was incorrect...

[Daldaen]

Druid/Ranger utility overlaps too much.

Go Bard.

[Malone88]

If you play sober and don't mind key crunching
Play Bard
Else
Play Ranger

:D

[MikeXG]

SOLD
Going bard, more my style anyway.
Can't promise I'll always play sober, but hey that is half the fun.


Would it be easier/more efficient for me as the bard to tank instead of the monk?


Thanks again for all the replies!

[Malone88]

SOLD
Would it be easier/more efficient for me as the bard to tank instead of the monk?

If you (bard) are slowing, then you will probably be pulling aggro anyway.
Test it out. If your monk can hold the mobs attention while you are playing
your songs, druid is healing, chanter is slowing/mezzing, then you're good.
If not, then might want to have bard hold the aggro. You'll prob want bard
to slow mobs anyway to take the load off chanters plate (and save them
a ton of mana).

[SamwiseRed]

druid should have been a sham (finally read this bullshit) but itll work. ive seen alot worse groups.

war/bard/sham/monk would have been my choice tho.

rogue instead of monk if warrior was a pal/sk and actually able to hold agro.

[Mandalore93]

Hell, if you needed to you could just snare kite mobs and let the rest of the group kill it as it chases you if for whatever reason you need a med break.plus as you get higher levels bard snare can actually let you fear kite in dungeons depending on how your group dps is doing. Ain't no leveling like not getting hit leveling.

[Lartanin63]

I will throw out play what class you like the most. I am a huge fan of rangers and i have played a druid as well. Druids are no where as good a healer as a cleric even with clarity. The whole skill overlap doesnt seem like a big issue to me since druid will be meding alot being the main healer. Rangers are pretty good tanks depending on the gear you are wearing. Gears usually cheaper as said above. Can tank classic stuff no problem with slows. I feel much of the bard utitly is overlaped with a chanter. Their haste is better, they have slows. Bard dps would not match a ranger with haste. Gotta throw in my backing for the ranger :)

[Calibix]

I will throw out play what class you like the most. I am a huge fan of rangers and i have played a druid as well. Druids are no where as good a healer as a cleric even with clarity. The whole skill overlap doesnt seem like a big issue to me since druid will be meding alot being the main healer. Rangers are pretty good tanks depending on the gear you are wearing. Gears usually cheaper as said above. Can tank classic stuff no problem with slows. I feel much of the bard utitly is overlaped with a chanter. Their haste is better, they have slows. Bard dps would not match a ranger with haste. Gotta throw in my backing for the ranger :)

They meant charmed pets dps + bard dps > ranger dps.

[MikeXG]

I can't thank you all enough for the info and replies.

This thread has been a resource for my whole group now lol.

looks like the group has changed to bard, monk, chanter, shaman. the no "official" tank and druid heals felt like to big a margin for error. With shaman I think we will be much better.

All that said, I know clerics are the best healers as they get heals a few spell levels before druid and shaman, but shaman and druid seem to get all the heals at the same levels. What makes shamans such better healers? Only thing I can think of is regen a bit earlier and cannibalize (not sure how great that is with chanter and bard mana regen?)

[Lartanin63]

Don't think they were refencing a shaman being a better healer than a druid. Was just a suggestion on what they would of done for a group. Shaman should be able to keep up with cann and clarity the whole time. Shamans and druids heal about the same.

[Tenlaar]

Bard/monk/chanter/shaman is absolutely the right group. What makes the shaman a better healer than the druid is the combo of his slightly better than enchanter slows and his ability to canni to have higher mana regen. Shaman also saves the enchanter mana and time by handling slows. With a bard to add his hp regen for canni, mana song, and clarity, a shaman can heal circles around a druid.

[Mandalore93]

Now that's a kick ass group, especially once you reach the thirties and get solid equipment plus a lot of those classes will reach more of their potential.

[Tecmos Deception]

Bard/monk/chanter/shaman

Powerhouse group, for sure. Although all of those classes take quite a bit of practice to master!

[Cropec]

I play often with a 4 man that works quite well.

Bard (me), cleric, rogues, and shadow knight.

The only time things get ugly are when we get multiple mobs (4+) that all aggro the bard. This usually only happens with badluck repops, multiple resists, or a failed lull. Its just not easy to mez as a bard when you are getting the crap kicked out of you. Enchanters are definitely the better mezzer espe
ially when it cones to AoE.

Giveb that your friends chse druid, monk, and enchanter I would recommend you go one of two ways. Either mage for offtank + burst dps or paladin for spot heals, tanking, and res.

Without having a cleric nor a high hp tank your biggest challenge will be single target boss mobs - named mobs in camps. Youll find that your group has sustained dps but no burst dps and weak healing. That combo makes it more difficult to kill loot mobs (named). Hence, my proposal for the mag was primarily focused on giving you the burst dps necessary to burn them down before the druid goes oom. Or alternatively the Paladin route would give you added healing to potentially survive long enough to kill the named mob.

Sorry for spelling.. I wrote this on mobile.

[MikeXG]

Group has finally been finalized. Bard (me), Monk, Chanter, Shaman.

we are a 4 man group, but that doesn't mean we are against picking up one or two other for a group, the 4 of us just plan on playing these 4 together all the time, if a pally or cleric or whatever is LFG where we are hunting, the more the merrier.

We are torn between the Monk and Bard tanking. Both seem viable so I guess we could trade off or pick based off the situation. I am just curious which would be safer/easier/more efficient as a tank for that group, provided pick up any other players.

[Cropec]

If you're slowing / snaring on the bard the bard will always end up tanking. When I twist largos on my bard the SK has to work in order to hold aggro.

The monk will tank better than the bard. Given your group i would have the bard focus only on mana, health, haste, and DS. If you avoid offensive songs the monk should be able to hold aggro.

[Tecmos Deception]

Group has finally been finalized. Bard (me), Monk, Chanter, Shaman.

we are a 4 man group, but that doesn't mean we are against picking up one or two other for a group, the 4 of us just plan on playing these 4 together all the time, if a pally or cleric or whatever is LFG where we are hunting, the more the merrier.

We are torn between the Monk and Bard tanking. Both seem viable so I guess we could trade off or pick based off the situation. I am just curious which would be safer/easier/more efficient as a tank for that group, provided pick up any other players.

I'm going to comment on what I think the weaknesses of your foursome are, incase it helps you deal with those weaknesses!

Basically your only weaknesses relate to healing. First off, you'll never have complete heal. That's saying something, even when you do have tons of passive regen going on plus shaman normal heals (and at 60, torpor).

While you will have almost no downtime because of low hp thanks to bard songs, clarity, regen spells, and shaman heals, again you still ONLY have a shaman healer. If the tank is getting spanked and the enchanter has a mez resist, the shaman needs to decide who gets a heal. Fortunately the redundancy of CC and slows in the group (and the chanter having plenty of mana usually to rune himself also) helps mitigate this problem. Just be mindful of it. A charm break while a big pull is inc and then the chanter gets a stun resist and bashed could be very ugly.

Finally, no cleric (or paladin, or druid, or even ranger) means no (good) hp buffs. Not a big deal for the tank cause he isn't getting CHs anyway, but it IS a pretty big deal for the other players because, when coupled with the points above, it means they are all the more squishy and all the harder for the shaman to keep up when things are going wrong.


Still, it's a VERY powerful group of four. It's just all about learning what each class can do (probably more importantly what each player realistically does with each class) and knowing what to expect based on that.

[Tecmos Deception]

We are torn between the Monk and Bard tanking.

Imo you actually should have BOTH tank. When you don't have CH, and you do have a ton of passive regen going on, you're being more efficient if you put that regen to use all the time. You'd basically be wasting a ton of free HPs if your bard was always full hp while the monk took all the hits.

Also, sometimes you will want the monk to be pulling and sometimes you will want the bard to be pulling (and sometimes you might even want both, or even the chanter to get in on the action). That could affect who is tanking too if you want chain pulls, etc.

[Cropec]

Tecmos speaks the truth. In most cases you won't have a problem getting the bard to take a few hits so that you can max the value of passive regen.

I have thought of forming a very odd group on this principle.

5 monks with fungi and one bard. I believe the group would have enough passive regen to sustain just fine without a healer. Look at the math...

A 3k hp tank getting CH is 7.5hp/mana. A cleric regens 21 mana/tick. That means cleric healing maxes at a sustained 157.5 hp/tick.

Iksar monk + Fungi + Bard will easily hit 50hp a tick. If you can spread the damage amongst 5 monks via FD that's up to 250hp/tick.

I think it would work :)

[Tecmos Deception]

It'd work, but omfg xp penalties :p

[Asap]

It'd work, but omfg xp penalties :p

I think you may lose experience per kill

[Cropec]

The exp penalty would be somewhat offset by how fast you could pull / kill. 5 monks is insane DPS.

[Tuljin]

except for tough bosses, the only reason for CH is the OHSHITOHSHITOHSHIT pulls. Between a bard and a chanter you shouldn't have a problem with this. Shaman can keep a regen on the monk which will be a great help. Have the bard dps and enc keep a pet and you will be $ on dps and with slows the lack of a real tank won't really be an issue.

[Philipangoo]

Only downside to the new group is no ports, but at least you still have sow / bard run speed!

[Calabee]

Have the bard dps

And exactly how? by twisting in every dot they can with instruments?

lawl

[Malone88]

Only downside to the new group is no ports, but at least you still have sow / bard run speed!That and no rez, which is kind of a big one.

[Mandalore93]

As for your question of what equipment you should be looking for here's what my 43 bard wears. http://wiki.project1999.com/Magelo_Blue:Muzikal2
Granted lots and lots of room for improvement especially in the chest, wrist, greaves and wep slots but all that would cost right under 2-3k I'd bet.

[billw134]

Halfling warrior
Halfling cleric
Halfling rogue
Enchanter illusion: halfling

[Buriedpast]

Reroll the entire idea into cleric warrior enchanter bard.
Use charm for dps.
Add random epic rogue twinks for dps.

[MikeXG]

Hey all, I just wanted to thank you all again for your helpful and/or funny replies to this posting. The group is well under way we are all level 21 right now, and have been targeting areas that yield good money even at the sacrifice of good exp. I was looking ahead at what utility and songs my bard would get and I realized I get charm in addition to the enchanters charm. We have been loving the massive DPS output of this group so far between me (I bought some solid weapons) the monk and the charmed pet of our chanter. How does bard charm work? do you have to twist it in with your other songs (that sounds like a pain in the arse)

If someone could explain bard charm, pros and cons, and how functional it is I would really appreciate it, also any tips when regarding bard charm.

Thanks.

[Tecmos Deception]

Mastering charming with a bard while not neglecting your other duties is pretty much the mark of a godly bard. I'm sure there's a bard around here somewhere you can teach you about the duration of bard charms and server v. client ticks and shit. It's not me though!

[Mandalore93]

The real problem begins once you start hitting level 37 which is where the first mana free charm stops. After that indefinite charming doesn't really become an option since bards don't regen mana like the other classes since we only have a single point in meditate. I'm also pretty sure that our own mana song doesn't affect us but that could be wrong.

After you hit the 40s, I just use charm to further split pulls and add in temporary DPS. The charm isn't by ticks as far as I know, but on a straight 18 sec duration. Generally speaking when I'm twisting while charming to hold a camp I'll do 5 songs then re-charm. If it's a tough camp that has been giving me solid damage then the last song before recharm will be to mes the thing I'm fighting to give myself a little breathing room.

As for server vs client ticks, never really played with it as for the most part you won't be able to set up a perfect twist with the timing, especially if you're taking hits.

[MikeXG]

So charm, before and after the level 37 charm both are songs like any other? Not something you can cast and have last a while like normal charm?

While twisting you would need to switch back to the target you want charmed when you got to charm song in your twist rotation? Is there a macro to help with this? is it ever viable to just sit with an instrument out playing group buffs and keeping your charm target targeted twisting through rotation to avoid having to switch targets? This would increase the potency of your group buffs (provided it was the right instrument) and replace your DPS with a charmed mob DPS?

[Mandalore93]

Yes you have to re target your pet in order to charm.once you get the timing down though it's not so bad.

[Calabee]

bard charm is roughly 24 seconds, you have time to twist in 6 songs (3 sec cast time + 1sec delay to move fingers :P) and you need to recharm

[MikeXG]

What is the expected amount of songs to be twisting in average combat as a bard. I can do 4 no problem even if I am tanking. 5, sometimes 1 will drop off for a second as I am casting it again, 6 seems a bit much but doable if its okay to have 1 dropped off for a tick or two.

[Lartanin63]

I use to just do 3 at a time. No reason to cramp the hand :P

[Tenlaar]

Four songs (not including charm, 5 songs with it) or you're a slacker.

[Mirana]

What is the expected amount of songs to be twisting in average combat as a bard. I can do 4 no problem even if I am tanking. 5, sometimes 1 will drop off for a second as I am casting it again, 6 seems a bit much but doable if its okay to have 1 dropped off for a tick or two.
Just play 4 songs. Between latency, getting bashed, pulling... not to mention song duration is anywhere between 12 and 18 seconds depending on where the "tick" hits. 4 is the right number for groups.


You may be familiar with this already, but just in case you aren't.

Making /stopcast macros for all of your songs will make twisting much easier for you, and requires only one keypress instead of two.

/stopcast
/cast 1

/stopcast
/cast 2

etc.

[MikeXG]

I am aware of the /stopcast macros, I have not made any yet. I dont find the double press to be that difficult but maybe next time I am on I will try em out :-)


I normally twist 4 songs. our group is so high dps that 5 songs is over kill really...

[dethbringre]

still didnt read but for whatever you are doing, a bard will be 10x more helpful than a ranger. bards amplify everyone in the group and most importantly lessen downtime.


I agree with this, bards in a group setting dont do much dps on their own, but amplify everyone around them. Haste for melee, health and mana regen for down time, back up CC, and of course the best part moving from point A to point B quickly.

[Calibix]

Four songs (not including charm, 5 songs with it) or you're a slacker.

Why stop at 4 when you have time for 5?

charm, snare, dot, dot, dot, snare, charm... profit.