Raid Suspension: Bregan D`Aerth

[Rogean]

As clarified early today:

There have been some questions about the rule regarding the limit on representatives at raid spawn, and situations like groups clearing Tola/Prot, for example.

The staff has decided that the rule will be enforced such as, if there are more than 2 representatives present at a raid target when the target spawns, that guild may make no attempt to engage that mob.

This means guilds are okay to clear trash mobs around a raid spawn without the risk of a raid policy violation, however they take the chance that the raid mob would spawn and they must forfeit it. Engaging the mob with a raid force if more than two representatives were present at the time of it's spawn will be a raid policy violation.

Bregan D`Aerth had a raid force in the zone killing Juggernauts and Ilis Jail mobs at the time (More than 6 people).

Trakanon logs:

Encounter Details
Server: Live
Encounter ID: 178801089
Entity Count: 27
Spawned: Mon Jan 20, 2014; 19:26:50
Engaged: Mon Jan 20, 2014; 19:34:27
Death: Mon Jan 20, 2014; 19:35:44
Duration: 1 Minutes, 17 Seconds. (77 Seconds)
Merited To: Group 449

We found this log, 6 minutes before Trakanon spawned:

Encounter Details
Server: Live
Encounter ID: 178798572
Entity Count: 10
Spawned: Mon Jan 20, 2014; 19:07:20
Engaged: Mon Jan 20, 2014; 19:20:06
Death: Mon Jan 20, 2014; 19:21:29
Duration: 1 Minutes, 23 Seconds. (83 Seconds)
Merited To: Group 370

NPC Details
NPC Name: sebilite_juggernaut
NPC ID: 89002 [Search]
Zone: Old Sebilis (89, sebilis)
Entity ID: 1251
Spawn2 ID: 246801 [Search]
Spawn Location: -272.733002, -1555.764404, -178.060425 [Search]

The location of this mob is after the invisible wall prior to the tunnel that leads directly to Trakanon, as indicated on this map:

http://www.project1999.com/bdajugg.jpg

That is way too close, not to mention the spirit of this rule should indiciate that it is unacceptable to have a raid force anywhere in the zone when a raid mob spawned, as it is an unfair advantage over the other guilds following the rules.

Bregan D`Aerth is raid suspended until 12:01 AM, January 28th, and loot has been deleted.

[Sadad]

We screwed up here. Two of our raid leaders had not read the forums today (and missed the Clarification: Representative Limit thread). We were not intentionally socking Trak. Instead, we had brought about 20 people down to poop mountain to practice tactics a bit (hugging left wall, etc.) and were headed back toward the entrance - a lot of our members have never engaged Trak before.

Being unclear on the newly-posted rules, we blew it. I apologize to the GMs who were flooded with petitions, the other guilds that didn't get a fair shake at this mob, and to our members who are paying for it going forward. We won't make the same mistake twice and although it cost us, we’re glad for the new rules and clarifications of them.

Sadad
Guildleader, BDA

[Yaolin]

Cazic Thule/Dracoliche ~ Can not be in zone when mobs pop, what happens if guild is clearing Fear?

Innoruuk/Maestro ~ Can not be in zone when mobs pop, what happens if guild is clearing Hate?

Trakanon/VS/Naggy/Vox (Dungeons) ~ No raid forces in zone. All camped outside zone?

Severilous/Faydedar/Talendor/Gorenaire (Outside Zones) ~ No raid forces in zone. All camped outside zone?

[arsenalpow]

That is way too close, not to mention the spirit of this rule should indiciate that it is unacceptable to have a raid force anywhere in the zone when a raid mob spawned, as it is an unfair advantage over the other guilds following the rules.

So a raid force shouldn't even be in zone or is the entrance of the zone ok? Also, what about groups of people doing zone content, would they be excluded from being able to engage Trak? Would have zoning out anyone present when Trak popped have made a difference? We'll own our fuckup just like Sadad said but being the test case for all this is unfortunate when the rule was semi vague and clarification was asked for in advance.

Breaking the spirit of a rule isn't something we want to make a habit of but clearly defining the do's and don'ts will be necessary going forward.

[getsome]

GMs should not have to post a definitive list of particular nuances regarding every raid rule. The task of explaining every rule to the nth degree is taxing.

The rules are very simple. The GMs have extremely shortened the prior variance to make this as easy as can be.

If you want to engage a target, do not be in the vicinity when its in window. Do not camp out at targets. No more than two trackers / mobilization characters can be online at any time at a target.

I was informed that BDA was also in hate while maestro spawned and killed it (if I am incorrect please let me know). Poop socking zones with raid forces while bosses are in window with the guise of practicing or armor clearing and then engaging a raid target is clearly breaking the spirit of the rule set provided.

I imagine any guild with plans on raiding a boss mob will know when its in window. If you want to compete I would recommend staying out of the zones. Sometimes simplicity is the easiest solution.

If you find your particular guild in a situation where you may have had more people than the rules allow in a particular location when the mob spawns, you can always choose to not engage the target and thus you have not violated anything.

[Troubled]

I was informed that BDA was also in hate while maestro spawned and killed it (if I am incorrect please let me know).

You are incorrect. We had 1 tracker in zone until he popped.

[arsenalpow]

GMs should not have to post a definitive list of particular nuances regarding every raid rule. The task of explaining every rule to the nth degree is taxing.

The rules are very simple. The GMs have extremely shortened the prior variance to make this as easy as can be.

If you want to engage a target, do not be in the vicinity when its in window. Do not camp out at targets. No more than two trackers / mobilization characters can be online at any time at a target.

I was informed that BDA was also in hate while maestro spawned and killed it (if I am incorrect please let me know). Poop socking zones with raid forces while bosses are in window with the guise of practicing or armor clearing and then engaging a raid target is clearly breaking the spirit of the rule set provided.

I imagine any guild with plans on raiding a boss mob will know when its in window. If you want to compete I would recommend staying out of the zones. Sometimes simplicity is the easiest solution.

If you find your particular guild in a situation where you may have had more people than the rules allow in a particular location when the mob spawns, you can always choose to not engage the target and thus you have not violated anything.

The rules are simple to a degree which is why we are asking for clarification. What constitutes "in the vicinity" ? Illis jail is too close, what about the zone in? Rogean said out of zone entirely.

We weren't in hate when maestro spawned.

[Striiker]

We are all VERY interested in ensuring that we adhere to the rules and also wish to stick with the spirit of the rules so some clarification would help us all. The spirit of competition on the FFA mobs is a great one and we made efforts to participate appropriately through proper mobilization with our recent kills on the re-pop.

Some additional examples or clarifications would be greatly appreciated, not so we can rule-lawyer but so that we all can confirm that our overall approach to staging for the targets is correct or in need of adjustments.

For example, when VS is in R-Class window and Taken is up, we will not be permitting members in KC except for our trackers (same for FFA if we were interested in VS). This may be correct or it may be overkill but we'd prefer to err on the side of safety until we have a better understanding of how the staff would like to see these things work out.

[Troubled]

We are all VERY interested in ensuring that we adhere to the rules and also wish to stick with the spirit of the rules so some clarification would help us all. The spirit of competition on the FFA mobs is a great one and we made efforts to participate appropriately through proper mobilization with our recent kills on the re-pop.

Some additional examples or clarifications would be greatly appreciated, not so we can rule-lawyer but so that we all can confirm that our overall approach to staging for the targets is correct or in need of adjustments.

For example, when VS is in R-Class window and Taken is up, we will not be permitting members in KC except for our trackers (same for FFA if we were interested in VS). This may be correct or it may be overkill but we'd prefer to err on the side of safety until we have a better understanding of how the staff would like to see these things work out.

My outlook is anything to give any advantage on moving toward a target is not allowed. Grouping in KC with VS in window gives certain advantages. Grouping in seb(besides king or juggs) does not give advantages. I don't think the hammer would fall down on a guild for having a couple people scattered through disco or chef, where you need to abscond anyway. Could be wrong.

[Yaolin]

GMs should not have to post a definitive list of particular nuances regarding every raid rule. The task of explaining every rule to the nth degree is taxing.

The rules are very simple. The GMs have extremely shortened the prior variance to make this as easy as can be.

If you want to engage a target, do not be in the vicinity when its in window. Do not camp out at targets. No more than two trackers / mobilization characters can be online at any time at a target.

I was informed that BDA was also in hate while maestro spawned and killed it (if I am incorrect please let me know). Poop socking zones with raid forces while bosses are in window with the guise of practicing or armor clearing and then engaging a raid target is clearly breaking the spirit of the rule set provided.

I imagine any guild with plans on raiding a boss mob will know when its in window. If you want to compete I would recommend staying out of the zones. Sometimes simplicity is the easiest solution.

If you find your particular guild in a situation where you may have had more people than the rules allow in a particular location when the mob spawns, you can always choose to not engage the target and thus you have not violated anything.

Trolling Trolling Trolling..... Trolling Trolling Trolling....

GM's please respond, I don't think anyone cares what the answers are even if its just "Stay the fuck out of the zone if a mob is in window." (Simplicity)

[Komodon]

GM's please respond, I don't think anyone cares what the answers are even if its just "Stay the fuck out of the zone if a mob is in window." (Simplicity)

This.

[Powtle]

Simulated patches can occur at any time.
So, when Innoruuk or Maestro are in FFA state, it means we can't raid Hate the whole week in case there is a simulated repop and we want to compete?

What if we evac/gate out when the repop is occuring? We'd have 2 minutes after the serverwide message to move out before the mobs actually pops.

Like, a group is camping Protector, they see the serverwide message, they evac within 2 mins and race back to Sebilis.

I understand that a guild evacing from Hate and porting back to Hate would still have an advantage over the other guilds tho.

[Ambrotos]

Just sounds like to me if there is the simrepop, you have time to get out. If you don't get out you can mobilize for another mob that isn't in the zone of your raid force when it does pop. That eliminates any risk of being punished.

The spirit of the rule is no poopsocking or rule lawyering around it. Having 10+ people killing shrooms/Jugs in a zone that has the number 1 mob people want to kill is pushing it. Having them in the lair doing trial runs on how to do an engagement is just going fully retarded. You had the numbers advantage over anyone else, even if you were moving back towards the zone out area. I sure as hell would bet any other guild would have petitionquest just as hard if they saw FE or TMO doing it. (there already had been petitions about this from BDA/other guilds)

There is a big difference between having 15ish+ people already past the tube --->Invs wall and 20 people at zone in who just logged in because the tracker sent out the batphone. That's why the map was included to show how close you all were.
Mob spawns and you have a raid force, thats your risk of being there and losing the chance. Don't need to read into it 20 different ways.

I was the only one who voted for two weeks since this entire situation was beyond stupid. Emperor Rogean is getting soft in his now old age !

[Ella`Ella]

I don't think Getsome is trolling, he's right. Playing in the gray isn't really flying these days.

To be fair, both TMO and FE requested that BDA leadership send us a tell so we could work out a solution among ourselves without involving staff. I never received a response from BDA and I am unsure if TMO did.