Bag Limit per Guild

[Geofizzle]

Little confused on the bag limit for mobs on repop...

IB/FE raid together on just about every target except for repops, when they split apart and then get double the bag slots as every other guild. Why is this allowed again? And if it's condoned, can other guilds such as TMO or Taken, BDA, etc. split into 2 to "co-raid" when its convenient but split apart on instances when it's not (i.e. repops)?

[Swish]

OP makes a good point. Potential to abuse the system is there.

[Anichek]

Little confused on the bag limit for mobs on repop...

IB/FE raid together on just about every target except for repops, when they split apart and then get double the bag slots as every other guild. Why is this allowed again? And if it's condoned, can other guilds such as TMO or Taken, BDA, etc. split into 2 to "co-raid" when its convenient but split apart on instances when it's not (i.e. repops)?

I would presume that the C class mobs and the raid stance that FE/IB is taking is held to one set of standards, while the FFA mobs is another. I don't think they should be pigeon-holed.

The complaint could be that TMO (as the other Class C guild) has issues with this the OTHER way - if FE and IB are raiding FFA repops separately and they have a problem with it, there'd be a legitimate concern about them raiding the Class C together.

But I've not seen TMO show concern over it, and it has little to no impact to me. If FE and IB split and bag out 2 kills FFA on a repop, they are likely losing out on Class C mobs (including VP) which is a sacrifice they make to do that. It's their operational call. (Just my thoughts)

[quido]

Most everyone in the C guilds has just been really cool lately and I don't think anyone wants to be the one to raise a stink. That said, I can see repeatedly shirking the bag limit by doing this pissing people off eventually. It's basically encouraging me to stick half my alts in another guild, which I think is kind of bunk.

[Erati]

It's basically encouraging me to stick half my alts in another guild, which I think is kind of bunk.

Can we get Beavis and Malcolm?

I'd also settle on Bruce.

www.takenguild.com

[quido]

I mean like <The Medulla Oblongata>

[Clark]

OP makes a good point. Potential to abuse the system is there.

No one is abusing the system. Not to mention there is no benefit to being in multiple guilds unless you're a psychopath. It actually hurts us a lot more being in an alliance as opposed to a merger (lack of authority being one big reason). For some reason an agreement can't seem to be met between the guilds on a merger because of a philosophical difference between DKP and Loot Council. I personally would never be in a guild with loot council because I've been screwed on too many times to count from unfair distribution. Can assure you FE and IB are upholding the rules just as always. Those that are around to deceive and pull bullshit can take a walk out the door.

[quido]

Whatever the troubles of such an alliance, it doesn't change the fact that you raid together pretty much always when it isn't a repop. You can't expect people to be perfectly fine with that. I know you didn't enter into such a situation with malice, but that is really beside the point. Would it be malice on my part to form an alt guild for the purpose of getting an equal shake at some mobs?

[Clark]

If you created an alt guild though you'd have guildmates in with you and legitimate authority over the members even though it's a frivolous venture. You also wouldn't have to increase roster by 150-200+ players to be responsible for.

[Geofizzle]

Whatever the troubles of such an alliance, it doesn't change the fact that you raid together pretty much always when it isn't a repop. You can't expect people to be perfectly fine with that. I know you didn't enter into such a situation with malice, but that is really beside the point. Would it be malice on my part to form an alt guild for the purpose of getting an equal shake at some mobs?

+1

[quido]

If you created an alt guild though you'd have guildmates in with you and legitimate authority over the members even though it's a frivolous venture. You also wouldn't have to increase roster by 150-200+ players to be responsible for.

I don't quite understand what you're saying, Armani. Perhaps you could better explain what you mean and how it relates to this issue please.

Also as an officer in FE you really should know better - never end a sentence with a preposition unless it's in RnF.

[Clark]

Keep things respectful man. How can you not understand what I'm saying lol it's clear as day.

[quido]

I don't want to create an alt guild - that's pretty cheesy. I think that if you raid together more than you don't (discounting repops) that you should be considered a single entity for the repops.

A lighthearted half-quote from Beavis and Butthead Do America regarding your crap grammar is hardly disrespectful!

[getsome]

IB/FE raid together on just about every target except for repops

it doesn't change the fact that you raid together pretty much always when it isn't a repop.

Two server repops have occurred. We raided apart on the first one, and joint on the second one (thus draco and vox went to Class R guilds). 50% so far. The claims made above are great exaggerations regarding us always raiding apart on server repops.

We play by the rules and do what we have to do to compete in the bracket we chose to play in. This is a compliment to TMO because they have a very capable and large guild that required us to join forces to compete. During most raids our combined raid force in numbers is about equal to TMO's during normal respawns.

[Barahir]

I've seen a number of newer guilds pop up recently and there has been growth in the guild that would attract the sort of people who would put their alt in another guild just for the sake of loot.

[Erati]

alts are welcome to join but

its gonna b hard for them to earn dkp/attend raids 24/7, constantly playing, gearing leveling characters for two dif factions and groups of people

i would say you would need practically no life to pull this off successfully as you would most likely keep it secret that ur also in a big C guild

its a good thing our server doesnt have too many no-lifers to pull off such feats!

[fastboy21]

Problem #1: Alts from Elite guilds infiltrate Casual guilds.

if casual guilds don't want alts from top guilds in their ranks then it is on the casual guilds to create/implement policies to prevent it. if they don't want alts from top guilds in their ranks to get much/any loot then it is up to them to create/implement policies to prevent it.

what people are hinting at is that the GMs should create a system that prevents you from guilding multiple chars in several guilds. this isn't up to the GMs.

Problem #2: Elite guilds create alt guilds solely for the purpose of skirting lock out timers

This is something that GMs need to monitor and make clear policies on what is appropriate.

[quido]

Two server repops have occurred. We raided apart on the first one, and joint on the second one (thus draco and vox went to Class R guilds). 50% so far. The claims made above are great exaggerations regarding us always raiding apart on server repops.

We play by the rules and do what we have to do to compete in the bracket we chose to play in. This is a compliment to TMO because they have a very capable and large guild that required us to join forces to compete. During most raids our combined raid force in numbers is about equal to TMO's during normal respawns.

You've got it backwards, Getsome. I haven't claimed you always raid independently for the repops, but if you do at all, the proportion is irrelevant. I did however claim that you usually raid together when it isn't a repop; this is what merits a possible change.

[quido]

I don't know why you people are even talking about people joining existing guilds on alts to get around this rule. This is not what was even suggested and that much should be abundantly clear by now considering how little sense it makes in this discussion. The issue here is people incorporating a guild and filling it with existing guildmates, raiding nearly always with a mix of the guilds, and then reserving the right to be considered two separate entities when it comes to full repops.

I think that if you raid together more than you don't that you should be considered a single entity for the full repops. It's only fair. And it avoids cheesiness.

[mattkwi]

Because FE and IB choose to raid together during normal spawns has zero impact on the community. There is not 'more' loot because of this. It's spread across more people. If other guilds want to leave the 'restrictions' of class R and raid together on C spawns go for it. Or if R guilds wanna build an 'alliance/agreement' for FFA spawns why not? If it increases your chances then go for it! Why do you think FE/IB raid together in the first place? To increase their chances of victory against TMO.

But if you are in either of these guilds, or even know people in them, you know they are two entirely separate guilds, that like Clark said, have different philosophy at the moment. Alts are not even in the equation here.

...Still so nit picky a week in. Just enjoy yourself and follow the rules. :)

[quido]

The rules are unjust and encourage being a doucher - this is why I/we are advocating change (because I don't want to have to be a doucher to feel like we're not getting screwed).

[Erati]

are IB and FE sharing their loot drops on the separate kills each guild gets on repop days?


am just curious

[BurgyK]

One guild gets two targets two guilds get 4. So what if two capable(edit: same tier) guilds choose to raid together instead of separate? I am missing the point here. Please explain simply with numbers (say imaginary week of raiding)how it is unfair.

[Bruman]

It depends on how you view it. Jeremy is viewing it one way (a single raid force abusing the rules get to double the mobs during repops), the other way of viewing it is "2 guilds get 4 mobs during a repop, the 2 guilds get half that during normal C or FFA spawns".

Note that I don't really have an opinion - this doesn't affect me, and I feel the guilds in C should work this out themselves.

[quido]

I wouldn't call it abusing, but I think it's unfair and encourages actual abuse. I will take this to the raid discussion forums after more discussion here in an attempt to work something out.

[Handull]

The very first repop we raided separately, then in vp all three guilds raided together so we would get along. Afaik we really weren't sure if fe and ib would continue to raid together. We also had no idea if tmo would be raid capable at first. Since then we've decided to raid together, and unless I'm wrong, we did the last repop together, so I don't see a problem.

I don't know why alts keep getting mentioned. Ib and fe are different guilds with different members. The only comparison would be if tmo split into two or three different guilds just to get more repop kills and then raid vp together

[JayN]

The very first repop we raided separately, then in vp all three guilds raided together so we would get along. Afaik we really weren't sure if fe and ib would continue to raid together. We also had no idea if tmo would be raid capable at first. Since then we've decided to raid together, and unless I'm wrong, we did the last repop together, so I don't see a problem.

I don't know why alts keep getting mentioned. Ib and fe are different guilds with different members. The only comparison would be if tmo split into two or three different guilds just to get more repop kills and then raid vp together

At one point they were the same guild......... if you go far enough back, basically the same thing if TMO were to split into multiple guilds.

[quido]

If IB and FE were to agree to continue to raid together for the full repops and share a bag limit, I would have no further issue. You can't reasonably deny that anything short of this should they continue raiding together outside of repop days would be a violation of the spirit of the bag limit imposed.

[Tasslehofp99]

Any other guild can form an alliance with another guild, we just chose to do so first.

This alliance was made before any raid scene changes.


Are you guys mad that we thought of it first?



also, as previous posters have said...when we team up there are more players getting less loot.

How is this unfair?

[Tenlaar]

Are you guys mad that we thought of it first?

See, this makes it sound like you are purposefully gaming the system.

[Hitpoint]

I think we should be trying to remove or increase the bag limit. I have the biggest problem with a bag limit being set at 2 on repops. It does screw tmo more than anyone. And us also to a lesser extent.

On the topic of FE and IB raiding separately. Yea it gives us the chance at more loot, but it's a double edged sword too. We aren't as strong separately, and there's the potential to lose targets. For instance, FE alone wiped on gore during the first respawn and had to try again. Another guild could have had a shot. If it wasn't a class C mob, I don't remember. Also, half the people at VS or trak can mean a wipe for us. I'm just saying it's not like we're guaranteed to get double the kills. It's very risky. When FE went for Trak alone, what would have happened if we wiped? A wipe in trak lair would screw both guilds for the rest of the respawn. TMO would have a tremendous jump on us in VP or wherever.

Also, I really cannot understand why other guilds refuse to help each other for FFA spawns and stuff. Anyone can make a guild alliance. And to answer the guy who asked. When we split up, we do not share the loot from the kills. When IB kills VS it's all their loot.

Lastly, these were some of the conditions of the agreement. We were told we could choose to raid separately, and everyone agreed to that. I really don't think it's fair to go back on that, or punish us for it. If anything, bag limits should be re-examined.

[Tasslehofp99]

See, this makes it sound like you are purposefully gaming the system.

Are you retarded or do you purposely ignore lines of text to benefit your thought process?


I said before any "new raiding policy" or system was in place, IB and FE have been raiding jointly for months.

Explain to me how we're gaming any system if we're just continuing what we did prior to any new raidin policies being implemented.


Also I'd love for one to explain to me how its not fair in terms of us skirting the system, for arguments sake.

To me, its as if when we want to be...we raid as one and split the loot accordingly.

When both sides have the numbers to do so we split up and go after different targets, any of you guys could do this with another guild.

To me it's not gaming the system more so as working together to be more successful. Isn't the whole spirit of this agreement/new policy for us to play nice together?

[xexbis0]

Why wouldn't having 3+ people from the same guild garner a bag like it would a lockout timer?

Seems like an easy fix. You help another guild with 3+ people, your guild gets a bag.

[quido]

On the topic of FE and IB raiding separately. Yea it gives us the chance at more loot, but it's a double edged sword too. We aren't as strong separately, and there's the potential to lose targets. For instance, FE alone wiped on gore during the first respawn and had to try again. Another guild could have had a shot. If it wasn't a class C mob, I don't remember. Also, half the people at VS or trak can mean a wipe for us. I'm just saying it's not like we're guaranteed to get double the kills. It's very risky. When FE went for Trak alone, what would have happened if we wiped? A wipe in trak lair would screw both guilds for the rest of the respawn. TMO would have a tremendous jump on us in VP or wherever.

This is irrelevant. The fact remains that you are shirking the spirit of the rule by acting as a single raiding entity the vast majority of the time and then reserving the right to be treated as two entities at the time it benefits you most. Something needs to change.

I personally am happy for the de-escalation in the raid scene overall; this situation is working against it.


Don't bother responding to Tasslehof please.

[Tasslehofp99]

Why wouldn't having 3+ people from the same guild garner a bag like it would a lockout timer?

Seems like an easy fix. You help another guild with 3+ people, your guild gets a bag.

This is how it works.

[Tasslehofp99]

This is irrelevant. The fact remains that you are shirking the spirit of the rule by acting as a single raiding entity the vast majority of the time and then reserving the right to be treated as two entities at the time it benefits you most. Something needs to change.

I personally am happy for the de-escalation in the raid scene overall; this situation is working against it.


Don't bother responding to Tasslehof please.

If this is true, why did IB/FE only kill 2 mobs(combined) on the last repop when there were a lot more up?

You're stirring shit up for no reason, and making shit up about "shirking the spirit of the rule."

Just look at it this way, we've been friendly with IB and other guilds in the past. We have used those good relations to form an alliance which benefits both guilds. You can either do the same(the logical, smart option) or keep crying about it here.

Seems pretty simple to me, there are plenty of guilds on p99. Even more guilds who wont be able to kill a single velious raid target on their own as of now, might as well start working together to practice working together ahead of time.

[Geofizzle]

Are you guys mad that we thought of it first?

Sounds alot like an ex-TMOer to me. Right guys?

[Geofizzle]

So great, this means that if I'm in TMO for repops i can put an alt into another guild, raid with TMO for loot on my main, and then raid for loot in another alt guild or "allied" guild. Thanks FE/IB for clearing that up.

[Tasslehofp99]

Sounds alot like an ex-TMOer to me. Right guys?

More like you're a moronic anon troll trying to stir the pot because you're pissed off no one wants to team up with your guild. ;)

[Ella`Ella]

If OP is TMO, why was this issue taken to Server Chat, when Mazam and I discussed that we'd work towards a solution for this matter? Airing dirty laundry at a time like this is poor form on anyone's behalf.

And, Jeremy, Relborn will have consequences for ending his sentences with prepositions. I've taught, or so I though, him better.

[Tasslehofp99]

So great, this means that if I'm in TMO for repops i can put an alt into another guild, raid with TMO for loot on my main, and then raid for loot in another alt guild or "allied" guild. Thanks FE/IB for clearing that up.

No.

IB and FE are separately run guilds with different leadership and different rosters. We've been raiding together for months now, months PRIOR to the new agreement. Perhaps TMO should just make an alliance of their own, if they can find anyone willing to team with them. Are you seriously this dumb or are you just trolling?

[Geofizzle]

Cmon now Tass, this isn't about personal insults it's server chat and we're only trying to get some clarification on the rules since your guild is stretching them. Please be civil.

[Tasslehofp99]

Cmon now Tass, this isn't about personal insults it's server chat and we're only trying to get some clarification on the rules since your guild is stretching them. Please be civil.

It's not an insult if you're truly acting stupid and ignoring the things people are posting just to go and post an ignorant response meant to stir more shit up.

[Hitpoint]

This is irrelevant. The fact remains that you are shirking the spirit of the rule by acting as a single raiding entity the vast majority of the time and then reserving the right to be treated as two entities at the time it benefits you most. Something needs to change.

I don't think it's possible to shirk the spirit of the rule. Because we were told that we would be allowed to do this before the rules were even implemented. Plus, I think being limited to 4 max non-vp targets on a repop is pretty tame, it's not like anything egregious is happening here. The 2 mob bag limit is far more unfair, I think.

I agree that this hurts TMO more than anyone, for obvious reasons. Maybe bag limits should only apply to a raid force. So you can split in half, stay in the same guild, and both bag limits can be applied separately. This is just a stupid idea for the sake of argument. I think being a strong enough guild to kill more than one target at a time should be rewarded. I hope that you can find a solution without punishing us. And mostly, I hope that we can get the rules about bag limits amended.

[quido]

Tasslehof, this conversation was extremely civil until you showed up and called someone a retard. Why don't you sit this one out or have someone more intelligent and less inflammatory post on your behalf? This isn't RnF.

[Tenlaar]

Are you retarded or do you purposely ignore lines of text to benefit your thought process?

No to both. I have made one post with one line about how your attitude comes off, don't presume to know my thought process. The fact that you were raiding together when it benefited you and apart when it benefited you before the rules changed is irrelevant. Your statement came off to me as a verbose way of saying "Yeah, what we were doing before the new raid rules is kind of shady now, but we're gonna keep doing it until we're told we cant. Y u mad brew?"

[quido]

Maybe bag limits should only apply to a raid force. So you can split in half, stay in the same guild, and both bag limits can be applied separately.

I think this is a fair solution and I would be fine with this if the staff signed off. Otherwise we're stuck in a quandary of technicalities.

This issue merits resolution sooner rather than later.

[Tasslehofp99]

Tasslehof, this conversation was extremely civil until you showed up and called someone a retard. Why don't you sit this one out or have someone more intelligent and less inflammatory post on your behalf? This isn't RnF.

How about you stop trying to stir shit up?

[LizardNecro]

Why wouldn't having 3+ people from the same guild garner a bag like it would a lockout timer?

Seems like an easy fix. You help another guild with 3+ people, your guild gets a bag.

That seems like a simple and good idea to me.

[Tasslehofp99]

No to both. I have made one post with one line about how your attitude comes off, don't presume to know my thought process. The fact that you were raiding together when it benefited you and apart when it benefited you before the rules changed is irrelevant. Your statement came off to me as a verbose way of saying "Yeah, what we were doing before the new raid rules is kind of shady now, but we're gonna keep doing it until we're told we cant. Y u mad brew?"

I'd suggest reading things a bit more thoroughly then.

How is two guilds jointly raiding considered shady? If anything that's the "spirit" of what EQ is all about. People working together to help eachother get shit done, why is this shady?

It was brought up during raid discussions, so the GM's are well aware that we're raiding together. You're just trying to throw wood on the fire that Geofizzle (anon troll) started by making comments like that.


Any other two guilds can raid together, its not against the rules. Make friends and form alliances. Stop crying about it here for the love of god we had enough stupidity on these forums for the last month. Do you guys seriously think the raid scene needs more changes already?

[quido]

Stir shit up? I have a legitimate grievance that I am seeking to discuss civilly and hopefully resolve diplomatically. If you don't want to be a part of that process, why don't you take a hike?

[Tasslehofp99]

That seems like a simple and good idea to me.

That is already how it works.

[Tasslehofp99]

My issue comes from the fact that you're basically accusing FE/IB of cheating.

We are two separate guilds who work together, or apart when possible.

You compared this in the first page to you creating an alt guild to get more loot, something that we don't do and something the GM's said would be against the rules.

Stop trying to make it seem as if we're breaking rules when in fact we've made every effort possible to follow the rules set out for us.

[Erati]

Why wouldn't having 3+ people from the same guild garner a bag like it would a lockout timer?

Seems like an easy fix. You help another guild with 3+ people, your guild gets a bag.

they are separating when the bags are in play, and raid together when they are not.

so when they have 3+ people from the same guild, its on targets that don't then involve bag limits.

I agree with Tass here, if we shackle IB/FE together as one .. it sets a bad precedent for when other guilds want to help each other on FFA targets.

Gore yesterday for example. Taken wiped, TMO wiped, IB/FE wiped, TMO wiped

had BDA not been suspended, or more Divinity and Europa on, Taken would have been communicating with the other R guilds to 'take away' the FFA Gore from the Cs

that is part of the fun of this system, figuring out how to down the FFA targets with so many guilds gunning for them in a much smaller variance

[quido]

Tasslehof, your reading comprehension is atrocious - do you even read all the posts in a thread before you comment yourself, or do you just skim the thread looking for people who piss you off and respond to them? I clearly stated that I knew there was no malice involved, and I'm fairly certain that everyone would agree with this. Nonetheless, the situation as it stands isn't fair and it deserves to be discussed. I'm sorry you don't like it.

[Frieza_Prexus]

There's a valid point here. Allowing guilds to co-raid to reap the benefits of separate identities is potentially problematic. It's not that this IS being abused, but that it present a very real hole. How do you stop one guild from splintering while honoring guilds that are still separate yet occasionally co-raid?

There's no perfect way to do it, but I think this might be fair:

Any guilds that raid jointly will be treated as one for a period of 7 days as measured from the death of the last mob they killed.

[Tasslehofp99]

Do you guys realize on the last ffa repop IB/FE only killed 2 mobs collectively outside of VP? That would be as if they raided as one guild, anyway.


where is this coming from?

[mattkwi]

TMO asking to make class C restrictive. Why not just go join class R?

If a guild wants to increase its chances on FFA spawns by raiding with another why is that such a problem?

[quido]

If a crew of 60 raiders wants to split into two forces for only the simulated repops and then raid together the rest of the time, why is that such a problem? It's the same effect as what people are free to do now.

It's ok to shirk the bag limit with sometimes-one-sometimes-two forces as long as your forces existed before our new rules? How is that fair?

[Hitpoint]

If a crew of 60 raiders wants to split into two forces for only the simulated repops and then raid together the rest of the time, why is that such a problem? It's the same effect as what people are free to do now.

I think that should be allowed.

I wish this was a discussion in the raid chat section though. Every time I click here I'm expecting to see this turn into an rnf thread.

[quido]

I think that should be allowed.

I wish this was a discussion in the raid chat section though. Every time I click here I'm expecting to see this turn into an rnf thread.

I think it is allowed. I also think it's stupid and that nobody really wants to see it happen. A solution such as Xasten's is a more reasonable way of handling this issue.

We were doing pretty good for a while on the no-RnF here *glares at Tasslehof*

[Tasslehofp99]

I think that should be allowed.

I wish this was a discussion in the raid chat section though. Every time I click here I'm expecting to see this turn into an rnf thread.

That was the goal of the OP from the start.

[mattkwi]

If BDA/Taken want to combine forces on FFA mobs, then split on repops, and still be in their R rotation, why should that not be allowed? Just another possible example.

[mattkwi]

FE/IB exist in class C. Competitive class. Their alliance is for competitive reasons.

[Hitpoint]

I think it is allowed. I also think it's stupid and that nobody really wants to see it happen. A solution such as Xasten's is a more reasonable way of handling this issue.

I think it makes things more entertaining. I see people always want there to be low numbers engages. This gives a reason for those to exist. You don't like zerging a dragon with 60 people? Well try with 30, maybe your other 30 can kill another mob in that time and it becomes tremendously rewarding. Or maybe both groups wipe and it totally backfires. Maybe you split 3 ways and send 20 people to 3 different targets. Two of those wipe and other guilds get a chance at the mobs. Sounds fun to me, like a way of making mobs more challenging and strategic, while also giving some reward for being more skilled and organized.

[quido]

If BDA and Taken were Class C and raided together 90+% of the time it wasn't a full repop, this would be bunk too.

[JayN]

IB/FE seem to be above the rules and the bag limits this is unacceptable

[Handull]

So great, this means that if I'm in TMO for repops i can put an alt into another guild, raid with TMO for loot on my main, and then raid for loot in another alt guild or "allied" guild. Thanks FE/IB for clearing that up.

No one in fe has alts in in and no one in in has alts in fe

[mattkwi]

If you want lockouts and restrictions, join class R. If you want competition stay in class C. It's really not FE or IBs fault TMO has no buddies to raid with. TMO created FE/IB by locking down the content.

[drktmplr12]

Little confused on the bag limit for mobs on repop...

IB/FE raid together on just about every target except for repops, when they split apart and then get double the bag slots as every other guild. Why is this allowed again?

And if it's condoned, can other guilds such as TMO or Taken, BDA, etc. split into 2 to "co-raid" when its convenient but split apart on instances when it's not (i.e. repops)?

The problem with the argument behind this post lies in considering them as a single entity. The fact remains that they are not separate and everyone knows it. When they join forces..they reap the benefits of alliance (more capable) but also suffer the disadvantage of alliance (splitting loot, harder to manage) The converse is true if they choose to raid separately.

I'm pretty sure all guilds are free to enter alliances if they see a mutual benefit. That's the point. They are teaming up to compete with a much larger force, and that is healthy. They aren't skirting any rules in my opinion.

I can't speak for the GMs, because they will interpret rules how they see fit. However, if it was me, this type of thing does not happen often and can easily be handled on a case by case basis.

When it comes to bag limits, there is merit to reviewing the limit if enough players agree it is unfair and provide logical reasoning as opposed to straw-man arguments. This forum is full of straw-man arguments.

[quido]

The real issue here is it's in some people's interest to create the same circumstances and thus benefits for themselves artificially. This comes with the rules as they are.

[Handull]

Do you guys realize on the last ffa repop IB/FE only killed 2 mobs collectively outside of VP? That would be as if they raided as one guild, anyway.


where is this coming from?

For once Tass is right on target

[NextGenesis88]

I don't think the GMs would want to penalize people for teaming up or making alliances. It's possible that one of the guilds that team up may get nothing for the kill besides the satisfaction of helping and seeing another raid mob. That's all up to the guilds on what type of agreements they set up. By teaming up it's not the same reward and situation as fighting themselves and if this is pure jealousy of the fact that they are simply seeing a couple extra raid mobs then by all means any other guilds can do the same. I am not seeing the issue here, but I do see where you're coming from. They aren't automatically getting loot and all that just being invited to team up and help. I don't see anything game breaking or anything that's giving them much of an advantage over anyone else aside from seeing 1 or 2 more raid mobs. I don't think they want to control the guilds to that extent... there needs to be room for guilds to work together, make alliances and dictate agreements. I can't imagine they would ever say they can't raid themselves because they helped another guild get the kill. If they had a problem with this then surely they would have had a rule against it and surely they talked about it as I couldn't see how the alliance of FE/IB would slip their minds. Just my thoughts. Not saying the discussion should end or anything and maybe they can chime in on what I am saying and if that's their position. I don't raid yet and don't talk much about it so it would feel pretty good if I got it right. If I am wrong then okay, bring on the flames I guess, but looking in from the outside, this is just what came to my mind, but just trying to add at least something to the discussion. (Maybe they do get to loot with the same chances, I don't know, but still that should be up to them on making an agreement right?)

Sorry for the WoT and thank you if you made it to the end!

[Tasslehofp99]

For once Tass is right on target

I'm always on target, usually just shooting from a different perspective!


But seriously this post is low grade RNF troll material.

Make friends, form alliances...or don't and get better.


If you compared TMO's numbers to FE/IB's numbers combined, they're almost always equal or in the same neighborhood. If we're able to team up when we're both low on numbers or work separately when we're flush with numbers, why should that be against the rules?

That just means we're taking more time to organize/plan for things, and making concessions with one another in order to make the alliance work for both parties.

Just seems to me that anyone having an issue with this is either against guilds working together, or has no one to work with them.

Not really sure where this post is coming from out of the blue anyway, kind of odd.

[Buriedpast]

Stop talking about fight club.

[Ella`Ella]

Stop talking about fight club.

The one fucking rule and you're breaking it.

[Bazia]

This thread is like a twilight zone episode where only Jeremy is making sense and no one else seems to be able to comprehend what he is pointing out.

Being able to decide when or when not the bag limit applies to you by splitting or jointing is not really fair, you shouldn't have control of how it's applied.

[quido]

They know it's bullshit yet defend it nonetheless because it is in their interest to do so. The only person here from the other side that has acknowledged it needs to be addressed is Unbrella. Props to him for looking towards doing the right thing instead of being an obstinate moran and provoking a stupid escalation.

[Tanthallas]

IB and FE are different guilds. If they want to join forces to compete they can. If they dont want to join forces to compete, they dont have to. If any guild in any bracket wants to join forces to kill a mob, they can. If they dont want to, they dont have to. The only restriction that is relevant is in the case of joining forces each guild would be restricted by the bag limit. If one guild merely helps another guild pull a mob, and that mob is then killed, then both guilds add one to their kill list.

Stop being idiots.

[kotton05]

Most jelly we can raid together and part ways like nothing happened, almost like fuck buddies..:rolleyes:

[Tanthallas]

Most jelly we can raid together and part ways like nothing happened, almost like fuck buddies..:rolleyes:

Getsome and I only call eachother once a month.

[quido]

I know it's not in your interest to see this issue objectively. You really think it's ok to raid together nearly always and then reserve the right to split up for repops? If it was just an occasional thing, you wouldn't hear me complain. The ways things are right now is cheesy as fuck. If it's not going to change, we can be cheesy as fuck too. I'd prefer we didn't have to.

[kotton05]

See "open relationship"

[Tanthallas]

I know it's not in your interest to see this issue objectively. You really think it's ok to raid together nearly always and then reserve the right to split up for repops? If it was just an occasional thing, you wouldn't hear me complain. The ways things are right now is cheesy as fuck. If it's not going to change, we can be cheesy as fuck too. I'd prefer we didn't have to.

If by be cheesy you mean joint kill mobs on repops with another guild then go for it - as long as any mob you jointly kill on repops counts towards both your bag limits. Have a great time splitting loot and everything between two guilds because of pride.

There is really nothing cheesy or shady about this. Your notion of fairness is being mingled with your bias toward your guilds ability to win mobs at this point. If we tried to claim that we did not need to count joint kills towards both guilds' bag limits, I could see the claim to shadyness - but merely working with another guild when the opportunity is present is not in any way, shape, or form shady.

It seems your real issue is the fact that we sometimes joint raid and sometimes dont depending on the environment we are raiding in - i.e., in the instance that we do raid together on non-repops you have a much stronger force to fight. For that I apologize, however two guilds getting together to gain a competitive advantage with the result that you lose mobs is not breaking any rules.

[Gnomersy]

How can the parties in question be so daft?? You are one unit when it benefits you, and separate units when it benefits you to be separate. It's as vanilla as that.

Is TMO ok Jeremy?? You guys wouldn't have hesitated to make a second guild to game this system in the past. Not flaming just acknowledging you guys "win by almost any means" mantra.

[Tanthallas]

How can the parties in question be so daft?? You are one unit when it benefits you, and separate units when it benefits you to be separate. It's as vanilla as that.

Pretty much...

Making and breaking alliances between guilds is and always has been based on necessity or at the very least gaining an advantage of some sort by doing so. FE and IB have split up on repops before these new raid rules existed because it was the sensible thing to do for two different guilds when multiple targets appear simultaneously. When all three are going head on for a single target, it is not the sensible thing to do. There is nothing cheesy or shady about it; trying to make it seem that way is the only shady thing going on in this thread.

If TMO wanted to avoid being gang-banged they could have taken steps to do so in the past. They were instead confident in their ability to take it from every angle.

<3

[Origin]

Sloan basically acting as my spokesperson. Thanks, pal.

If TMO wanted to do the same thing with another class C guild, they could do so. If TMO wanted to split into two genuinely separate guilds, with two completely different systems, and then joint raid in the same fashion as IB and FE do now, no one would have anything against that.

IB and FE are two completely separate guilds. Old members and same roots? Can you name all of the people currently in FE who were once IB? Saying that either guild is the alt guild of the other is actually insulting.

And since we're already borderline RNFing, here's a question for you: Would Big J be trying to rule lawyer this hard if FE/IB wouldn't have gotten the last PD?

[Tanthallas]

Origin go on vent and help me make this DAOC account ffs.

[quido]

This has nothing to do with PD as the bag limits only apply to non-VP mobs. Almost anyone else would get called a moran for such a dense statement.

[Tanthallas]

I would like to say that I do not think anyone involved here is a moran. Thanks.

[Frogie305]

And since we're already borderline RNFing, here's a question for you: Would Big J be trying to rule lawyer this hard if FE/IB wouldn't have gotten the last PD?

It has nothing to do with PD. Jeremy was pointing out abuse of the bag limit, which i agree. If you plan to Share the bag limit on repops then i see no problem with you all joint raiding on other targets. We have pretty much gotten over the e-peen on how many mobs you killed and how many we killed. This is a new raiding system that we are all adapting to, and trying not to get raid suspended for things that usto be in the normal. I saw the last Repop FE/IB joint raided and i /clap for you all. If thats what you all plan to do from now on i have no issue with it. Good day.

[Origin]

This has nothing to do with PD as the bag limits only apply to non-VP mobs. Almost anyone else would get called a moran for such a dense statement.

I'll take that as a compliment. Or maybe not, considering you know that i wasn't serious about it.

It has nothing to do with PD. Jeremy was pointing out abuse of the bag limit, which i agree. If you plan to Share the bag limit on repops then i see no problem with you all joint raiding on other targets. We have pretty much gotten over the e-peen on how many mobs you killed and how many we killed. This is a new raiding system that we are all adapting to, and trying not to get raid suspended for things that usto be in the normal. I saw the last Repop FE/IB joint raided and i /clap for you all. If thats what you all plan to do from now on i have no issue with it. Good day.

Oh, the abuse!

I'll stop posting now and wish you gentlemen a great day.

Sloan needs help setting DAOC up! TO THE BATCAVE!!!

[Tanthallas]

One more time.

FE and IB are distinct guilds. They have always been distinct guilds. The only restriction either is under currently is the bag limit - i.e., when FE and IB joint raid on a repop and kill a target, that target is considered to be a +1 toward their bag limit for each guild. This applies to each and every guild that joint raids on repops, in whatever raiding class they exist.

Other than that, if FE and IB choose not to joint raid on a repop or at any other time it is their concern - not yours.

[quido]

I don't see it that way and neither do a number of uninvolved parties. We'll see.

[Frogie305]

One more time.

FE and IB are distinct guilds. They have always been distinct guilds. The only restriction either is under currently is the bag limit - i.e., when FE and IB joint raid on a repop and kill a target, that target is considered to be a +1 toward their bag limit for each guild. This applies to each and every guild that joint raids on repops, in whatever raiding class they exist.

Other than that, if FE and IB choose not to joint raid on a repop or at any other time it is their concern - not yours.

You should stop trying to lawyer this, So when you guys want you joint Raid use up that bag limit. And others times you can choose to get 4 mobs since you are two distinct guilds? this is essentially what you are saying here?... I don't Care about FFA mobs, or VP mobs Joint raid it up<<<<<. I'm talking about Repops, you can't have it both ways.

[quido]

http://cdn.straightfromthea.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/deion-sanders-2.jpg

Both

[Geofizzle]

Yes, go on some more about how you guys are distinct guilds. I believe you that it's 99% accurate...but you do know that the chance for this double-dip bag limit to be abused both with loot sharing and alts between guilds is very high right? Especially because of the time you guys spend with each other and the mutual interest in getting numbers for raids. I'm sure IB and FE share accounts. Who else can really tell that your whistle is clean besides FE/IB leadership?

Also, this has nothing to do with VP. This has to do with getting 2x the loot outside VP because of 2 tags then taking that DISTINCT GEAR ADVANTAGE to VP and other targets with you and dominating more because of it.

I think its in TMO's interest to gear up a secondary guild at this point if this is allowed because alliances just became way more beneficial.

[Frogie305]

Yes, go on some more about how you guys are distinct guilds. I believe you that it's 99% accurate...but you do know that the chance for this double-dip bag limit to be abused both with loot sharing and alts between guilds is very high right? Especially because of the time you guys spend with each other and the mutual interest in getting numbers for raids. I'm sure IB and FE share accounts. Who else can really tell that your whistle is clean besides FE/IB leadership?

Also, this has nothing to do with VP. This has to do with getting 2x the loot outside VP because of 2 tags then taking that DISTINCT GEAR ADVANTAGE to VP and other targets with you and dominating more because of it.

I think its in TMO's interest to gear up a secondary guild at this point if this is allowed because alliances just became way more beneficial.

Who are you ?, So i can tell you to STFU? This fool in no way represents TMO's thoughts/feelings. so please procceed to the stfu corner. Gear Advantage? what are you even talking about FE/IB have proven that they are more than capable on killing VP raid targets. Stop trying to turn this into an RnF thread when this is a legitimate concern. And no TMO will not be making ANY type of alt guilds. The day they do you will see my application on FE forum boards.

[Tanthallas]

You should stop trying to lawyer this, So when you guys want you joint Raid use up that bag limit. And others times you can choose to get 4 mobs since you are two distinct guilds? this is essentially what you are saying here?... I don't Care about FFA mobs, or VP mobs Joint raid it up<<<<<. I'm talking about Repops, you can't have it both ways.

There is nothing to lawyer here. The only change to repops has been the addition of a bag limit - and we adhere to the bag limit rules in the case that we raid together and in the case that we do not.

The only lawyering is on your side because, as Jeremy said, he doesnt 'see it that way'. That is great and all, but you have yet to explain why putting in a bag limit forces us to either always raid together or never raid together.

http://i39.tinypic.com/20pg83.jpg

[Erati]

I think its in TMO's interest to gear up a secondary guild at this point if this is allowed because alliances just became way more beneficial.

An alliance is a pact, coalition or friendship between two or more parties, made in order to advance common goals and to secure common interests.

pssssst.... alliances have always been beneficial, and have always been a big part of Everquest. TMO wouldn't know, bc you guys slap every hand that has been reached out to you.

can this get moved to RnF soon?

[Geofizzle]

Who are you ?, So i can tell you to STFU? This fool in no way represents TMO's thoughts/feelings. so please procceed to the stfu corner. Gear Advantage? what are you even talking about FE/IB have proven that they are more than capable on killing VP raid targets. Stop trying to turn this into an RnF thread when this is a legitimate concern. And no TMO will not be making ANY type of alt guilds. The day they do you will see my application on FE forum boards.

Redgar, I've always liked you, but you sir are the one turning this into an RNF thread. Calm your roll.

[Geofizzle]

At this point, I consider this thread over. I think FE/IB and Sloan made some really good points and hopefully the rest of this debate can be hashed out in the game between the leadership. Thanks.

[sedrie.bellamie]

ITT: FE/IB rule lawyer their way into as many dragons as they want to kill

FE/IB should either merge or get the divorce over with. If IB is the same IB that TMO ran off the server; well, welcome back. And if FE is the remians of VD; well congradulations; you didn't get ran off the server. Both guilds have reached their goal; stop TMO from getting 99% of the raid mobs. Now that that goal has been accomplished; it is time for FE/IB to go their seperate ways. If you do not want TMO to try and skirt the rules; then you should be expected to do the same. If IB/FE are really so different; then it won't be hard to stop raiding together.

[quido]

You're violating the spirit of the bag limit by nearly only raiding separately when it allows you to shirk the rule. Yes I know it's not against the rules, but the rules should be different then.

Instead of lawyering and basically telling us to do something equally cheesy, why don't we find a solution? This is absurd and you know it.

I will admit it's kind of funny to see the parallel between this and the IB/VD Trak rotation, except this time IB is the little sister =)

[Tanthallas]

No spirit of anything is being violated. FE and IB have split on repops before this bag limit was introduced, and have no intention of changing our behavior because you dont like the fact that you have to compete against a strong combined force on non-repops. There is really nothing to talk about. If you want to ally with a guild on non-repops to boost your attendance, feel free to do so...

FE has nothing to do with VD - most VD people stayed in BDA. The people who formed FE had fleeting connections with both VD and IB. Any Ex-VD and Ex-IB people came to FE because they didnt want to go to TMO, and that is the extent of the relationship. FE wasnt old money regardless of who wants to paint it that way now.

As far as the current relationship between FE and IB goes - that is not for people like you to determine. TMO hasnt got 99% of the raid mobs for a very long time now - if that was our goal it was over months after FE was formed. Our goal is to compete with TMO and win, and if we need to combine forces to achieve that then we will do so. Worry about your own guilds and stop crying.

[quido]

On the repop you didn't jointly raid, which targets did each of your guilds get?

[Tanthallas]

I think FE got Trak and Gore, and IB got Inny and Sev

[Pheer]

ITT: FE/IB rule lawyer their way into as many dragons as they want to kill

Please show me the rule that says two guilds that have raided together on non repop mobs are forced to share a bag limit. Theres no lawyering going on here because the rules are very clear.

Also all this talk about alt guilds and such is dumb because FE and IB have been doing this since long before the new raid system, and are two entirely different guilds.

[quido]

So it's ok to be cheesy as fuck and only raid separately to evade a bag limit as long as you were doing so before the new rules?

Hardly acceptable criteria.

[Tanthallas]

I take back my former statement in regards to not thinking anyone on this thread was a moran.

[Lammy]

pssssst.... alliances have always been beneficial, and have always been a big part of Everquest.


The number of Raid targets allowed per guild was never enforced by the staff before, which is the main reason this becomes an issue.

There are so many raid limitations by the staff that are non classic now, so I think it's fair to say that guild alliances should be monitored and tweaked by staff as well to account for this.

[Pheer]

So it's ok to be cheesy as fuck and only raid separately to evade a bag limit as long as you were doing so before the new rules?

Hardly acceptable criteria.

The point I'm making is that FE and IB raiding together clearly had nothing to do with this current raid policy because it predates it, however you guys keep talking about making alt guilds and such which would clearly be in response to the bag limit and breaking the spirit of the rule. Also unless I'm mistaken I believe the GMs stated that situation would be flat out illegal anyway.

Its pretty clear the differences between an extended relationship between two guilds and "lol hey guys tag your alts in this random guild we just made"

Just because you don't like it doesn't mean its problematic or abusive.

[Tanthallas]

The number of Raid targets allowed per guild was never enforced by the staff before, which is themain reason this is an issue.

There are so many raid limitations by the staff that are non classic now, so I think it's fair to say that guild alliances should be monitored and tweaked by staff as well to account for this.

Guild alliances and multi-guild kills are subject to the bag limit rule. In the case that two or more guilds tag team to kill a mob on a repop and proceed to ignore the bag limit rule, then it is a staff issue. In the case that you want two separate guilds to not joint raid on non-repops because it is difficult for you, it is not a staff issue.

[Erati]

# of Raid targets allowed per guild was never enforced by the staff before, which is main reason this is an issue.

Well lets start hearing some tangible, realistic approaches to solving what you guys wanna see with IB/FE.

They are not going to simply stop raiding together as it allows them to compete with TMO in VP etc.

Xasten's suggestion that a guild that raids together for a normal spawn is then tied to each other's bag for the following 7 days is somewhat logical, however I feel a rule like that is basically targeting 2 guilds while killing any sort of "for fun" quickie tag team alliance that all guilds may divulge themselves in with any future spawn situation.

This really screams of sour grapes, and if TMO was not losing any targets I doubt a peep would be made of how IB/FE raid.

I think the proper way to approach this situation is the bag limit, not the fact that two separate guilds raid together for normal spawns, then raid separate for repops. We can't control how two separate entities co-operate with each other, especially when they share a common goal (defeat TMO).

With the bag limit at 2, TMO cannot simply 'contest' those C mobs with their force split, it serves no purpose. If they defend IB/FE off for each guild's initial two targets ( on a repop) they are then locked out for the rest of the non VP mobs, thus there is not much point in trying to contest both guilds. However, if the bag limit was increased to even 3, it would give TMO more flexibility to split their force for normal spawns, contest both the priority spawn for IB and FE separately and then still have 1 left in the bag.

what do you guys think?

[quido]

I'm pretty tempted to form my own crew-guild that raids with TMO always except on repop days! It wouldn't be difficult. We'd have our own members, our own process, and eventually we'd have our own history. It's hard to say no to this when you have the chance to double the amount of mobs your pals can get on a repop! Shit, I should do it with just people who are already basically geared and we can sell the DHBs or give them to alts or whatever we decide as a guild is best.

[Lammy]

. In the case that you want two separate guilds to not joint raid on non-repops because it is difficult for you, it is not a staff issue.

I believe the argument is geared towards IB/FE raiding repops together and absorbing the same bag limit that our raid force is required to abide by during repops, not asking IB/FE to not raid together outside of repops.

[quido]

Yeah if the bag limit was increased or eliminated, this probably wouldn't be an issue. Given how motivated these previously lazy guilds have proven to be, I don't think the limit is really going to matter that much half the time anyways. But it will sometimes.

[Tanthallas]

I believe the argument is geared towards IB/FE raiding repops together and absorbing the same bag limit that our raid force is required to abide by during repops, not asking IB/FE to not raid together outside of repops.

The implication here is obvious. You want FE and IB to either fully joint raid on repop and non repop or fully not joint raid on repop and non repop. You are stacking the deck for a fucked it you do, fucked if you dont scenario and guising it in the name of fairness.

There is no reason FE and IB, or any guild for that matter, cannot interact in any way that they see fit insofar as they adhere to the bag limit rules when they do joint kill a mob on repops. What you do on repops has zero weight on what you do on non repops, and to try to smuggle this in here is extremely pathetic.

[quido]

The rules as they stand are bullshit. That's what we're trying to change here in the name of fairness. Stop saying "we're following the rules." We know. They're bullshit.

I think it's pretty reasonable to say that if you raid together half the time or more that you should be considered a single entity for the repops.

[Lammy]

The implication here is obvious. You want FE and IB to either fully joint raid on repop and non repop or fully not joint raid on repop and non repop. You are stacking the deck for a fucked it you do, fucked if you dont scenario and guising it in the name of fairness.

There is no reason FE and IB, or any guild for that matter, cannot interact in any way that they see fit insofar as they adhere to the bag limit rules when they do joint kill a mob on repops. What you do on repops has zero weight on what you do on non repops, and to try to smuggle this in here is extremely pathetic.

I'd rather there just be no bag limit and FE/ IB can raid how they please.

[drktmplr12]

On any full server respawn, all guilds are limited to two raid mob kills for 12 hours. This limitation does not apply to mobs that are exclusive to a Class.

Anyone who is wrongfully accusing (my opinion) that FE/IB is taking advantage of a loophole needs to get their brain checked or repeat elementary school. It is very clear. Let's read it again.

On any full server respawn, all guilds are limited to two raid mob kills for 12 hours. This limitation does not apply to mobs that are exclusive to a Class.

Still clear.

It tells us exactly who, what, when, how many and for how long. If you don't like the rule, why not bring it to your guild leadership to discuss in the raid discussion forum? It would be far more productive than trying to form a PAC among the community (who largely doesn't care) to garner support for your cause.

This thread started as please clarify why something is allowed. It's perfectly clear based on the rules. It took too many posts for this to be said.

[Erati]

The bag limit is the issue here however I feel that with there being only what 3 (?) sim repops so far, it is too small of sample size to determine if anything needs to be overhauled.

Maybe after another week or two of the current ruleset, the bag limit can be looked at if it still feels 'unfair'

[Pheer]

I don't get why you guys keep approaching this with the attitude that its a problem that needs solving or some kind of issue for the server to discuss. Nothing IB and FE are doing is outside the rules. The only "problem" here is that you guys are upset about the end result of a situation you had a very large part of creating in the first place.

The rules as they stand are bullshit. That's what we're trying to change here in the name of fairness. Stop saying "we're following the rules." We know. They're bullshit.

So essentially you want leftover C class spawns during a full repop to automatically go FFA to the class R guilds because "Hey at least IB or FE wont get it then"

This has nothing to do with fairness and a lot to do with you guys still wanting to control the pixel flow on the server in any way you can.

Also if you're so concerned about the rules why is this in server chat instead of the forum they set up specifically for guilds to discuss things like this? You guys could easily have gone in there and tried to get a calm and respectful dialogue going between guilds and the staff, but instead you decided to post it here hoping there would be some kind of community outcry of support and the raising of pitchforks to demand change.

[Lammy]

I see it being unfair when it plays out like this.

Server repop happens

1. IB/FE team up to go after the two highest priority targets (they fail because TMO is faster)
2. Now they get to split up and take 4 open world targets.

1. Say IB/FE teams up on the two highest priority targets and beats TMO
2. TMO is still limited to only 2 open world targets

Just remove the bag limit. Several other guild have proven to be capable of getting targets when they try.

[Erati]

I see it being unfair when it plays out like this.

Server repop happens

1. IB/FE team up to go after the two highest priority targets (they fail because TMO is faster)
2. Now they get to split up and take 4 open world targets.

1. Say IB/FE teams up on the two highest priority targets and beats TMO
2. TMO is still limited to only 2 open world targets

Just remove the bag limit. Several other guild have proven to be capable of getting targets when they try.


They (IB/FE) get 4 targets. 4/2= 2 per guild

yet when you talk about your guild you used words "still limited to only" but it is still the same number that each IB and FE get.

They are not getting more targets than you guys because they are separate guilds.

They want to stack the deck to beat you guys on the normal/VP spawns because that works in both guilds best interest.

I agree though, the bag limit if any is the problem. Figure out how to fix this via the bag limit rules, not break up guild alliances.

[Pheer]

I see it being unfair when it plays out like this.

Server repop happens

1. IB/FE team up to go after the two highest priority targets (they fail because TMO is faster)
2. Now they get to split up and take 4 open world targets.

1. Say IB/FE teams up on the two highest priority targets and beats TMO
2. TMO is still limited to only 2 open world targets

Just remove the bag limit. Several other guild have proven to be capable of getting targets when they try.

So you're mad that two individual guilds would each be able to take two targets, and your guild would only be allowed to take two targets?

wat

Also in your example IB/FE teaming up to try to ensure they get the two high priority targets would mean they share the bag limit on those mobs. Theyd end up trading an additional target each to be part of the kills on the priority mobs. What exactly about that situation is unfair?

[Lammy]

So you're mad that two individual guilds would each be able to take two targets, and your guild would only be allowed to take two targets?

wat

Also in your example IB/FE teaming up to try to ensure they get the two high priority targets would mean they share the bag limit on those mobs. Theyd end up trading an additional target each to be part of the kills on the priority mobs. What exactly about that situation is unfair?

I'm not mad about anything. I'm just discussing viewpoints. And I'm certainly not mad that FE/IB raid together, If anything it's just advocating for the bag limit to be removed.

[drktmplr12]

Also if you're so concerned about the rules why is this in server chat instead of the forum they set up specifically for guilds to discuss things like this? You guys could easily have gone in there and tried to get a calm and respectful dialogue going between guilds and the staff, but instead you decided to post it here hoping there would be some kind of community outcry of support and the raising of pitchforks to demand change.

qft

Stop saying "we're following the rules."

They probably feel the need to remind everyone because everyone is intent on pointing out that this is somehow against the rules.

You clearly hate the rule. We get it.

[drktmplr12]

Also in your example IB/FE teaming up to try to ensure they get the two high priority targets would mean they share the bag limit on those mobs. Theyd end up trading an additional target each to be part of the kills on the priority mobs. What exactly about that situation is unfair?

Nothing.

[Tanthallas]

Im going to drive to EL and cockpunch you Jeremy. Per Paladins request.

[quido]

dag yo

[Gnomersy]

FE/IB is gaming the system to their advantage. How can you not see that? You admit to being similar numbers together, as TMO. Yet you get twice as many mobs on repop. As I said you are a unit when it benefits you and separate when that benefits you. AKA gaming the system. I hate you guys for making me side with Jeremy. It's clear as day that this is a loophole that should be addressed. Obviously you didn't separate to take advantage of these new rules, but intention has 0 regard for the new rules, per TMO bard suspension. To make it an even aging field why shouldn't TMO split I half to claim more mobs on repop days. In essence you get 8 more raid targets per month staying separate.

[Tanthallas]

Let me try to make this clear to you once more.

FE =/= IB

If there is any more confusion in this regard, I suggest you go to Walmart, buy a ball, throw it into traffic and chase after it.

[Gnomersy]

Let me try to make this clear to you once more.

FE =/= IB

If there is any more confusion in this regard, I suggest you go to Walmart, buy a ball, throw it into traffic and chase after it.

Chill out there alarti. The adults are talking. Go play in your room until dinner.
FE =/= IB in name only

[kotton05]

we are two guilds. sadface for joo

[drktmplr12]

As I said you are a unit when it benefits you and separate when that benefits you. AKA gaming the system.

http://i.imgur.com/vry5Ifb.jpg

[Tanthallas]

Chill out there alarti. The adults are talking. Go play in your room until dinner.
FE =/= IB in name only

This guy is cute. Can we get him his own raid discussion thread to discuss things between FE and IB with himself Rogean?

[Gnomersy]

What's sad about it for me?? I don't have a dog in this fight. Outside observer

[Gnomersy]

Awe you think im cute? Gonna go write it in my diary.

[Fountree]

You guys are 2 guilds but 1 raid force. You should be judged by that if were talking about raid rules. The fact remains that you guys raid as 1 force almost always, so the 2 guilds thing doesnt really make sense to me. This is an attempt to gain an unfair advantage and the GMs should step in to clarify if this is ok so other guilds can make adjustments in that case.

[Sarius]

One of you TMOers should make a thread in the Raid Guild Discussion forum to actually discuss this with people that have a shake in it. Unfortunately Sloan will still be there =(

[Tanthallas]

You really need the GMs to step in and tell you if its ok for guilds to sometimes raid together and sometimes not? Really?

[Erati]

GMs should step in to clarify if this is ok so other guilds can make adjustments in that case.

splitting TMO into TMO-A and TMO-B is not making an 'adjustment' lol

why won't you guys just rationally discuss the real issue that is bag limits

[Fountree]

If you guys were really 2 guilds also you wouldnt be co-fighting on ffa mobs continuously for year+

[Tanthallas]

splitting TMO into TMO-A and TMO-B is not making an 'adjustment' lol

why won't you guys just rationally discuss the real issue that is bag limits

They dont want to - what they clearly want here is to force FE and IB into either raiding together always or not raiding together ever because their ability to compete with their joint forces is not looking too hot. It doesnt take a genius to see this.

[Tanthallas]

If you guys were really 2 guilds also you wouldnt be co-fighting on ffa mobs.

TMO is the larger threat to each individually; hence we ally to fight the bigger power. Keep going on like you recently have though, and maybe that assessment will change.

[Hitpoint]

I think we should channel this effort into lobbying for removing (or raising) bag limits on repops. That's the real injustice.

[Fountree]

We've been competing with joint forces awhile with success....this is about keeping repops bag limits fair imo and the fact your raid force is getting double the loot and double the camp out chars as tmo in many cases. You cant deny this.

[Tanthallas]

Yes, two guilds are getting double the loot as one when a bag limit is enforced on rotations. Four guilds are also getting four times the loot as one. I dont think anyone denied this and the point is moot.

It comes down to an attempt to claim FE and IB are one 'raidforce' even though they are two separate 'guilds' which amounts to an arbitrary reshuffling of existing categories to suit your argument. You cannot redefine these things at will - FE and IB are distinct guilds that choose to work together when it benefits them, and choose to work individually when it benefits them. Sometimes FE and IB will work together on repops; sometimes they wont. The only thing that matters is that they adhere to the bag limit rules in the instance that they do combine forces.

[Fountree]

Again with the 2 guilds thing. You guys raid as 1 force 90% of the time and were talking about raid rules. Youre 1 force as far as im concerned. You cant have it both ways. If you can, tmo can.

[Fountree]

However this resolves im impressed with your guys success lately on ffa targs well deserved trak today lots of numbers :) Difficult to compete with that mid-day est!

[Tanthallas]

Again with the 2 guilds thing. You guys raid as 1 force 90% of the time and were talking about raid rules. Youre 1 force as far as im concerned. You cant have it both ways. If you can, tmo can.

Do it.

[Fountree]

Do it.

Heh...im a little rattled here tbh Sloan :-/ . Leavin thread for now

[quido]

sounds pretty dum

last resort only

[Tanthallas]

Heh...im a little rattled here tbh Sloan :-/ . Leavin thread for now

I mean you know I dont mean any offense, we have been friends for longer than either of us have been a part of our respective guilds. All I am saying is that I dont see the reason for all the fuss over two guilds joint raiding when it suits them and not when it doesnt. The discussion should be about bag limits if anything, not the extent to which guilds are 'allowed' to make or break alliances.

[reborn649]

Guilds need to be separate or together imho. With the new raid rules, "alliances" just have an unfair advantage. If it doesnt change, other guilds are going to split to have the same "alliance" advantage causing less mobs for everyone. Eventually someone else will get the bright idea to split each of those guilds as an "alliance"... Now we have 1 guild split 4 ways. Everyone who plays on p99 knows this to be idiotic, but also knows it's not inconceivable by any means. Either 1 guild under the same tag or 2 separate guilds with no alliance...no reason GM's should have to intervene on this. I respect FE/IB and have a lot of friends in both, but you have to clearly see the advantage of a situation like trakanon where u have an "alliance" with 4 coth mages and every other guild who is competing only has 2. This isnt the only example, but probably the most obvious.

[Tanthallas]

The problem with your argument is that as far as repops are concerned, wherein the 'raid rule' here is relevant, FE and IB have gone separate in most cases. However, if we do go together on repops we share in the bag limit penalty and it does not mean less mobs for everyone at all. Last repop FE and IB joint killed VS - this counted as one mob in each of their bag limits, not just in one guilds bag limit. FE and IB penalized themselves by joining forces in this case.

As far as having an army of coth mages - how would merging the guilds change the fact that between us we have an army of coth mages? If you are claiming that we have 2 representatives from each guild tracking on targets we joint raid, you are severely misinformed. We make sure to have two trackers present between BOTH guilds if we are joint raiding a target. We have zero intention of trying to game the system, and fully understand that if we are joint killing then we are joint tracking. Sorry, but I really dont see the rationale behind this post.

[Sarius]

Good point with the CoH mages

[Spitty]

Why not deduct a point (or whatever fuck you people are using now) from each guild's bag limit if they raid jointly?

This does three things -

1. Encourages single-guild and low-headcount attempts
2. Appropriately counts a raid against each guild if they choose to jointly raid a target
3. Prevents any unfair advantage or loophole where splitting guild forces or combining multiple guilds would result in extra bag points (or, again, whatever the fuck you people are using now)

From a purely outside perspective, it's unfair to prevent guilds from co-operating to take down large targets and it's unfair to give those guilds extra "solo" raid opportunities on the side just because they like to team up now and then.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that two guilds combining as one wouldn't result in a deduction from both guilds' bag. I mean, what's happening now? Are you deducting a half-point from each guild so that it forces those guilds to jointly raid another target to satisfy their limit? It wouldn't make sense that a guild with 1.5 points remaining would be able to engage two raid targets on their own, right?

It makes sense to either dock both guilds a point, or a half-point and force another joint raid. If Guild A and B team up and "use" guild B's point for a raid, Guild A shouldn't be able to go do whatever the hell they want after getting loot from that raid - there should be a deduction.

[reborn649]

The problem with your argument is that as far as repops are concerned, wherein the 'raid rule' here is relevant, FE and IB have gone separate in most cases. However, if we do go together on repops we share in the bag limit penalty and it does not mean less mobs for everyone at all.

Fair enough, but if you joint raid on something like Trakanon, will you not have 4 coth mages there and have an unfair advantage over other guilds? If you want to joint raid something like trak, use 1 mage from each guild to even the odds.

[Tanthallas]

Fair enough, but if you joint raid on something like Trakanon, will you not have 4 coth mages there and have an unfair advantage over other guilds? If you want to joint raid something like trak, use 1 mage from each guild to even the odds.

Thats exactly what I said, and that is exactly what we have been doing. We only have 2 people between both guilds logged on at the ledge or being camped at the ledge. Everyone else is waiting to get CoTHed.

[kotton05]

Fair enough, but if you joint raid on something like Trakanon, will you not have 4 coth mages there and have an unfair advantage over other guilds? If you want to joint raid something like trak, use 1 mage from each guild to even the odds.

hmm

[doraf]

Guilds need to be separate or together imho. With the new raid rules, "alliances" just have an unfair advantage. If it doesnt change, other guilds are going to split to have the same "alliance" advantage causing less mobs for everyone. Eventually someone else will get the bright idea to split each of those guilds as an "alliance"... Now we have 1 guild split 4 ways. Everyone who plays on p99 knows this to be idiotic, but also knows it's not inconceivable by any means. Either 1 guild under the same tag or 2 separate guilds with no alliance...no reason GM's should have to intervene on this. I respect FE/IB and have a lot of friends in both, but you have to clearly see the advantage of a situation like trakanon where u have an "alliance" with 4 coth mages and every other guild who is competing only has 2. This isnt the only example, but probably the most obvious.

When we joint raid, we only bring the allowed number of CoH mage/Trackers as a single guild is allowed. There may be 1 IB mage and 1 FE necro, but there will never be more than two combined on the ledge tracking. Where as you're thinking we could have 4. I doubt that we could and it's prolly best to be cautious than to press the rules. IB goes on their own during server repops. That's their decision and I can't blame them, but we raid VP together which is actually beneficial to TMO. TMO is only worried about splitting dragons with the alliance as opposed to racing or splitting VP with three guilds.

Guilds could split off into smaller guilds and try to get more repop kills, but they would still have to be competitive. IB is a pretty small guild, but they've been around the block a few times and feel confident enough to handle repops on their own.

[Tanthallas]

Why not deduct a point (or whatever fuck you people are using now) from each guild's bag limit if they raid jointly?

This does three things -

1. Encourages single-guild and low-headcount attempts
2. Appropriately counts a raid against each guild if they choose to jointly raid a target
3. Prevents any unfair advantage or loophole where splitting guild forces or combining multiple guilds would result in extra bag points (or, again, whatever the fuck you people are using now)

From a purely outside perspective, it's unfair to prevent guilds from co-operating to take down large targets and it's unfair to give those guilds extra "solo" raid opportunities on the side just because they like to team up now and then.

Personally, I think it's ridiculous that two guilds combining as one wouldn't result in a deduction from both guilds' bag. I mean, what's happening now? Are you deducting a half-point from each guild so that it forces those guilds to jointly raid another target to satisfy their limit? It wouldn't make sense that a guild with 1.5 points remaining would be able to engage two raid targets on their own, right?

It makes sense to either dock both guilds a point, or a half-point and force another joint raid. If Guild A and B team up and "use" guild B's point for a raid, Guild A shouldn't be able to go do whatever the hell they want after getting loot from that raid - there should be a deduction.

This is exactly what is already happening. This is exactly what I have been saying. When FE and IB, or any other guild joint kill a mob on a repop, that mob counts toward both of their bag limits. This is precisely how FE and IB have handled every repop since the bag limit rule was put in place.

[Buriedpast]

What unfair advantage?

TMO needed a 135 man roster to compete with TR and a turnout of up to 80 people commonly before they were competitive.
TMO now doesnt, and fields 35-50 people depending on target and time of day. Great improvement. Historically TM-A were doing the exact same as we are forced to now, and TR welcomed the competition and eventually a lack of VP and killing the same shit week in week out burned so many out you win by attrition. Bravo.

TR back then did 30-35. we now do 12-20 people. 30 on a repop
FE does 15-25 people, 35 on a repop.

Thus, we can only compete if we share the duties of tracking, #'s on spawn, dps and heals, despite our differences, and we let any and all of those differences slide in the face of our more important desire to be competitive and at times beat, at times lose to, our competition. Now, should we because of much smaller rosters of active people than TMO independently instead spend the next 6 months recruiting and getting to TMO numbers, or for the time being enjoy our small, efficient group of folks and slow high quality applicant stream.

What I see TMO guys here asking is that both FE and IB step down from competitive class until they are able to compete individually, and for TMO to have all C class spawns to themselves to feed their many mouths and many alts. Normally, I'd be fine with that. Part of being competitive is there has to be a second place. But we have an opportunity to usher in a new raid culture. Why not let people work together to make it a fun an prosperous environnment through not only the loot, but in the sense of accomplishment and worthy adversary that TMO present. You guys have stepped your game up big time since we left for Mac. Us? We have only 3 remaining clerics of what was once arguably the best 9-10 ever in the one guild in eq's history.

So theres clearly a few options here:

TMO gives IB unconstested VP for 4-6 months, like IB earnt and wasnt given as VP was released so late.
TMO settles down, sees how it plays out and we review it all in a month or two.
TMO demands we raid as one all the time, which neither of IB or FE want to do (or we would of merged), and this would just see a bunch from both guilds quit, as it isnt what we want, and I'd rather not kill mobs than be forced to kill them with TMO/A style numbers.

I think the 2nd option is the best obviously, it does very little to affect anyone else, forces TMO to flex its (large) muscle and advantageous 1.5 years of farming VP uncontested for alts, and it allows us a fair medium to help our many many new members in each guild.

I just cant see why after two repops, and one of them jointly raided, there is a 16 page thread on the topic. If there are legitimate grievences after the dice settle down then sure, open the lines of communication (which should admittedly never close with your new leadership and the excellent reputation we all hope to build as a community now), and talk about it with the leadership of both guilds and work out a compromise.

But jumping the gun after week 1 is a show of cards I thought the server did no longer need to deal with. I thought this forumtrolling and white knighting shit was over and we could all get back to the business of having fun.

So what is it that you really want, to make noise, or to express a legitimate grievance over an extremely small sample size, based on an action that has taken place 50% of the given chances.

Sorry, I cant see the logic. Speak to me in about mid/late feb and see how things are and let's hope some other guilds do the same to share in the spoils, as with our tracking and mobilisation power, that of TMO, and BDA, and Taken, there is not much left without alliances being made for the same reasons they exist today for us.

[Phatso]

TMO mad because their zerg recruiting is no longer beneficial to the new raid scene.

[Lammy]

This thread began as bag limit issues but now it extends even beyond that. The difference between "when it suits you and when it doesn't" is only a concern because of the limit the new raid rules restricting TMO. They tie our hands from competing evenly because fe/ib essentially get to bend the rules at certain times when it is benificial. Al la excessive people camped at trakanon ledge because you're "two guilds" killing as one. I can't even fathom how you cannot acknowledge the unfair advantage in that.

And I believe this to be an issue not because I care that fe/ib raid together, but only because the new, unclassic raid rules restrict TMO from even having a fair chance to compete with the advantage that they provide for your raiding alliance.

[Tanthallas]

This thread began as bag limit issues but now it extends even beyond that. The difference between "when it suits you and when it doesn't" is only a concern because of the limit the new raid rules restricting TMO. They tie our hands from competing evenly because fe/ib essentially get to bend the rules at certain times when it is benificial. Al la excessive people camped at trakanon ledge because you're "two guilds" killing as one. I can't even fathom how you cannot acknowledge the unfair advantage in that.

And I believe this to be an issue not because I care that fe/ib raid together, but only because the new, unclassic raid rules restrict TMO from even having a fair chance to compete with the advantage that they provide for your raiding alliance.

What is this excessive people camped at the ledge bullshit; why are you making completely false accusations? FE and IB have never done this, and have no intention to do this. IF we ever do this, I expect some form of punishment. Today at Trak you lost a legitimate race - we had one mage at the ledge, and one at the zone.

These new raid rules dont restrict TMO in any way that they were not restricted before insofar as FE and IB joint raiding is concerned. Noone has yet to show me how the implementation of a bag limit on repops, repops that DID NOT exist before, somehow implies that FE and IB joint raiding is problematic in a way that it wasnt before. As long as the bag limit rules are adhered to, there is nothing to even be discussed here. If FE and IB break the raid rules, then there will be. Everyone has more mobs than they did before, with vastly reduced variance, and they still find something completely off the wall to bitch about.

[Buriedpast]

And to reiterate about the Coth mages and tracking.

We deliberately and with threat of severe punishment/deguilding act within the rules. I logged on and gated several toons off the ledge before and during the trak window that were left there by ignorance or forgetfulness. We ensured to have any and all coths at zone line or in TT. The race for trak was won on organisation, coth order strategy, and a balanced force engage with specific instructions on who to coth. Not one second of todays trakanon was left to chance between us. The chance of a raid suspension, the chance of losing the mob, and the chance of breaking a rule was eliminated through (a not too common) shared direction from both leaderships.

So to be clear. Two trackers were on ledge, as per rule. TMO had coth anchor set up a full 94 minutes prior to Trakanon being in window (saragirl) and remained uncontested in having an active anchor at zone in for about 25 minutes of traks window while we sorted out shit out, camped our trackers in order to gate people off etc. Ensuring at all times we never broke that rule. It was a shiftight, but again, there is no grey areas. I don't want to be part of kills where grey areas are concerned personally, I've been advocating for a pnp raid scene for over a year now (project2000 wru). Much to the disgust of some bloodthirsty colleagues of mine. Call it excellent timing and great work by a team with a distinct plan in order to secure us the best chance of engaging first.

Maybe next time we wont pull it off as jointly raiding means communication, direction and cohesion are second priorities to bickering, and a game of too many cowboys and not enough indians. Its very disadvantageous to act on the fly with the fluidity that IB core guys play with when we are helping to develop that mentality in apps and newer members, whilst at the same time work at the pace of; and in some sort of structure with FE (which is either faster or slower, for better or worse depending on the day or lunar cycle, not sure, but I like them for always surprising me good or bad!). We could of totally fucked trak up and looked like morons today, like any given sunday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myyWXKeBsNk

[Buriedpast]

If this goes to rnf, im out.

Absolutely no need. I wont partake in mud slinging, but I will in showing the truth, sharing an opinion, and an open discourse with respected competitors and friends within that guild.

[Lammy]

What is this excessive people camped. Today at Trak you lost a legitimate race - we had one mage at the ledge, and one at the zone.
.

Respsctfully, I disagree. There were several ib/fe mages on ledge in an unrealistic amount of time for a 12 second cast time. However I made my point and leadership from my guild can address it diplomatically with your guilds and see where it gets us from there.

[Buriedpast]

We had one on ledge. within 15 seconds of trak spawning another was there (me), i had my coth started on a third the moment it landed. a fouth was brought up within 40sec and a 5th in under 1:30 or so with a 2nd anchor made from a previous coth'd person gating to set that up. It was orchestrated.

[Tanthallas]

The third was Vazdeline, whom I personally gated out and ran back right before Trak came into window because he was not the FE person specified to be at the ledge. Lazy bums even made me run from VP entrance to KC for the port too.

[Hitpoint]

I was playing a vaz and I was at zone in and got cothed. Along with others. I obviously didn't see who was at ledge at the start, but I know that we went to great lengths to make sure we didn't have extra people logged at the ledge. We gate/coth extra people off the ledge while we're parking. Even our guild motd says nothing right now except to make sure that we're following the rules at Trak ledge.

I really don't think we had too many people at ledge. Our batphone was instant, the tracker said TRAK POP in vent about 1 second before I got the batphone. And I think we were even using a mage to track? I was very happy with the smoothness of the coth chains and how quick the mobilization was. The first I've heard of us having extra mages at the ledge has come from TMO. I can tell you that we wouldn't be so happy about the kill if there was any question about it being legitimate (in our eyes).

And yes it was very, very fast. A significant improvement over the past few times. Thank you for that.

[Buriedpast]

I was the first person cothed. Was no one else but Benjy at that moment, maybe kimchi? Xeden was grouped, I cothed him up, he cothed a cleric up, I got a necro up, he got another 2 mages, I got an enc up who then went to anchor as a 2nd chain. Then we kept going until critical Mage mass and the lack of earth staffs all in one place caused an implosion of space and Trakanon died while Tiggles Mage sat there meddling for his 7th coth, possibly with a high pitched voice saying gaiz a lot.

[Fazlazen]

wtf, I'm not even mentioned once in this thread...

[Sarkhan]

One more time.

FE and IB are distinct guilds. They have always been distinct guilds. The only restriction either is under currently is the bag limit - i.e., when FE and IB joint raid on a repop and kill a target, that target is considered to be a +1 toward their bag limit for each guild. This applies to each and every guild that joint raids on repops, in whatever raiding class they exist.

Other than that, if FE and IB choose not to joint raid on a repop or at any other time it is their concern - not yours.

Seems pretty straight forward. Two separate guilds allying is very different from one guild splitting into two forces. Two guilds are splitting loot of one mob, effectively only getting half the mob's loot in exchange for the added help.

Bag limits, imo, should stay as it stops an entire Tier from deciding to screw over another entire Tier. If Class C had no bag limits or increased limits they could kill ALL of the FFA mobs before tackling their C-mobs.