Most Valuable Class

[bridgetroll]

In your experience, what class, when played masterfully, can bring out the best in a group?

I know some people are going say "It all depends on the person playing the class" as well as "every class has a specific role, so one isn't more valuable over another."

Well, my question has more to do with your own experience. What was the best group you were ever in? What made it the best group? Was there a particular player that seemed to be the MVP? And this is more of an overall approach, instead of breaking down classes by specific measures like dps, survivability, mobility, etc.

I know there are a ton of variations of this kind of thread. Just looking for more than just "Which class is the best?" More of a "Which class, when played by a master, can take a group to the next level?" I know that's vague, but I'm interested to see what some of the veterans on here have to say.

[Oogei]

shammy of course

[myriverse]

Dun care. What do RMTers say?

[SamwiseRed]

bard/druid duh

[Byrjun]

Enchanter.


Haste (by far the best melee buff).
Can slow nearly as well as a Shaman.
Tash.
Ultimate CC - mez/stun/root.
Can pull with the above and Pacify if needed.
Charm - best DPS in the game.
Rune.


At 60 it gets a bit closer because Shaman has pretty good healing power with Torpor but when it comes to 1 class making a huge difference in a group nothing comes close to an Enchanter.

Things are a lot different if we're talking about raiding, though.

[bridgetroll]

see if I had to guess, I'd say bard, just bc they can set the pace of the group with pulling as well as affect almost all other aspects of a group (mana, haste, healing, cc, resists, etc). nevermind the exp penalty and carpal tunnel.

[Destron]

Bard.

/thread

[Champion_Standing]

druid

[bridgetroll]

i'm surprised two people have already said druid (hopefully not as a joke/troll). there are a lot of people who feel druids are dead weight in groups, especially 50+ unless they are the only healer available.

/shrug

[Crawdad]

1) Bard. Only higher than Enchanter because of the 40% Exp Penalty-- a Great bard will make the Exp ship smooth sailing. Does everything (a bit worse/different) that a Enchanter does. Unfortunately, multiple Great bards don't stack in an Exp group very well.

2) Enchanter. Obvious OP class, but you get a mixed bag. A lazy Enchanter sits around and refreshes Clarity/Haste when asked, Mez's occasionally, and sucks up Exp better divided elsewhere. A Great one Pulls, keeps buffs on a timer, and puts out a significant % of the group's Dps via a charmed badass. Great enchanters stack really well in Exp groups.

3) Druids. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a mediocre Druid. Average druids waste mana DoT'ing, don't want to heal, or've collected too much moss on them from soloing. Great druids are excellent pullers (outdoors), Heal just fine (in the right level range/group), can handle playing the Crowd Control game, and can also add significant Dps to a group with a charmed animal badass... if there's any in the zone. ...but One is all you'd ever need in an Exp group.

[Brut]

Bard if 99% of em didnt hit low 50s solo then show up semi-naked at lcy looking confused when told to both manasong and CC adds.

[fishingme]

1) Bard. Only higher than Enchanter because of the 40% Exp Penalty-- a Great bard will make the Exp ship smooth sailing. Does everything (a bit worse/different) that a Enchanter does. Unfortunately, multiple Great bards don't stack in an Exp group very well.

2) Enchanter. Obvious OP class, but you get a mixed bag. A lazy Enchanter sits around and refreshes Clarity/Haste when asked, Mez's occasionally, and sucks up Exp better divided elsewhere. A Great one Pulls, keeps buffs on a timer, and puts out a significant % of the group's Dps via a charmed badass. Great enchanters stack really well in Exp groups.

3) Druids. Can't swing a dead cat without hitting a mediocre Druid. Average druids waste mana DoT'ing, don't want to heal, or've collected too much moss on them from soloing. Great druids are excellent pullers (outdoors), Heal just fine (in the right level range/group), can handle playing the Crowd Control game, and can also add significant Dps to a group with a charmed animal badass... if there's any in the zone. ...but One is all you'd ever need in an Exp group.

I very much so enjoy bards, I've played with some good ones that have performed excellent crowd control. However, that's pretty much what i have seen as their max potential for dungeon groups. I would definitely say enchanter is best, shaman is a close second but at least in my eyes shaman's ability is epic soloing which isn't particularly helpful in a group. Fantastic root CC/extra heals etc but without fungi or natural regen they're kind of lacking in a steady stream when duoing with a monk. Just more efficient to solo. I decided to re-roll an enchanter for lower level fun (previously have leveled/epiced an enchanter at 55 and I can tell you that there is nothing more fun than having charm last for 5-10 minutes in unrest at lvl 19 on a mummy that quad hits, two for 38dmg 2 for 15-25. Thinking about it makes me want to unbox my desktop to play.

[Dezik]

Epic rogue

[bridgetroll]

I very much so enjoy bards, I've played with some good ones that have performed excellent crowd control. However, that's pretty much what i have seen as their max potential for dungeon groups. I would definitely say enchanter is best, shaman is a close second but at least in my eyes shaman's ability is epic soloing which isn't particularly helpful in a group. Fantastic root CC/extra heals etc but without fungi or natural regen they're kind of lacking in a steady stream when duoing with a monk. Just more efficient to solo. I decided to re-roll an enchanter for lower level fun (previously have leveled/epiced an enchanter at 55 and I can tell you that there is nothing more fun than having charm last for 5-10 minutes in unrest at lvl 19 on a mummy that quad hits, two for 38dmg 2 for 15-25. Thinking about it makes me want to unbox my desktop to play.

that's a fair point. enchanters can really affect a group in all measurable ways, from killing power to crowd control to the healers mana pool. it's really starting to look like a three-horse race between bard, enchanter, and shaman.

Epic rogue

I will say the dps output of an epic rogue is a sight to behold. it really does affect the time mobs are alive and able to deal damage, which makes life easier on everybody. the thing is though, you really don't need a lot of skill to deal a tremendous amount of damage with a ragebringer. it would seem to me that there would probably be only a small gap in terms of production between a master and novice. also, dps is really all a rogue has going for it other than dungeon scouting/lock picking. valuable yes, most valuable? hmm.

[Hitpoint]

Bard, enchanter, monk. In that order.

[Sarajo]

As always, this research is full of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. I was thinking of a way to score THE BEST a little better:
At the most elemental level, a group is 2 players. So going to start by asking "Who is the best to duo with"
Back in the classic days, we had 3 things:
Tank
Healer
Crowd Control

No wait, not those 3 things... I meant:
Pure melee
Pure caster
hybrid bastard offspring

So if you're a pure melee, who do you want to group with? If you're a pure caster, who do you want to group with? If you're a hybrid bastard, who do you want to group with?

Melee: Shaman. Take, for instance, the ability to turn any monk into a tank, with buffs and debuffs. I don't know how good monks are at taking at 60, but I do remember how bad I was at tanking at 60 back in those days, unless there was a high-level shaman doing stuff to things.
Caster: Enchanter. Not just the buffs, but stuff like stun lock and root really matter, too. Oftentimes the biggest threat to a caster is another caster, and an enchanter does the best to mitigate that. Then there's the Rune line of spells, too.
Hybrid: I think bards do the best for hybrids, because they pretty much make the good parts better and help you stay out of trouble. If you're aggro kiting? Bards help with snare backup and dots. If you're root rotting? Bards help with Selos and emergency snares and manasong. If you're fighting a caster? Bards mez it every 3 seconds.

[phacemeltar]

Bard, enchanter, monk. In that order.

yea, shamans are kinda useless and overplayed

[Oogei]

oogei of course

fixed sry

[Lune]

Enchanter miles ahead of anything else.

[Byrjun]

Enchanter miles ahead of anything else.

Yeah, I don't get how this is even a discussion. Enchanters out-DPS epic Rogues and then do a dozen other things at the same time.

[rollin5k]

This is the great thing about classic eq. This question can't be answered

[Pheer]

I know some people are going say "It all depends on the person playing the class" as well as "every class has a specific role, so one isn't more valuable over another."

Nah everybody is just going to say enchanter

[Teppler]

Necromancer of course! Roots, CC, DPS, best mana regen and heals even though they are poverty heals!

[Sinestria]

Bard, shaman/enchanter

[phacemeltar]

This is the great thing about classic eq. This question can't be answered

not true, the correct answer is bard. or ranger.

[bled12345]

People's responses in this thread made me lol.

CC is nice, heals, debuffs are nice, but the above mentioned trio of most valuable in a group... Especially at high level

Enchanter - Had TONS of groups from low-mid-end game levels without enchanters, and we did just fine. It's nice to have them around, but crucial? Naw

Shaman - Once again, when building a group, is /who all LFG shaman the first thing I'd look up? Hells no

Bard - They are / were so far and few between when building groups, I never even considered them usually when inviting. If there was one nearby LFG or a friend who was a bard happened to be on I'd invite him.


Now, these 3, fun to have? Sure, helpful to have? of course, essential? Nope.

So if they aren't essential, then how can they be "MOST VALUABLE"

druid / shaman can serve as the group's healer until mid game... Then cleric's become a must.


Warrior / SK / Paladin = MUST have in functioning exp group, who is most valuable out of the 3 is up for debate.

Cleric = MUST have in functioning exp group 40+

Then there's everything else.

Who makes the flashy play's and sexy buffs? Not the cleric / tank.

Who keeps the essential cogs of the group machine running smoothly?
The tank and cleric.

Who is the only class in the game with cheal? Cleric.



Cleric is the most valuable class in groups. That's the original question, and that's the answer.

Now for soloing, duos, etc that's a whole nother story.

[Rec]

Someone is upset his class is not most valuable

[Daldaen]

Cleric is definitely required in high-end groups. Druid/Shamans (with Chanter or Bard mana regen) can heal in Karnor's-type content. When you get into higher Sebilis/Charasis/Chardok though Clerics become necessary.

Warrior/SK/Paladin... lolno. Ranger / Monk tank just fine in basically any group content.

[webrunner5]

bled is right. And when Velious comes out they will be even MORE desirable. All of my high level toons are healers. Cleric, Shaman, Druid. I can tell you no way my Shaman can do what the Cleric does with ease.

[Dezik]

Still gonna say Epic Rogue. When mobs die in 10 seconds who needs CC, heals or a tank?

[myriverse]

Agreed with bled, too. I don't think I've ever been in a situation where I went, "OMG! We really need a Chanter/Bard/Shammy!" I don't think I even need more than one hand to count the times I grouped with a Chanter or Bard. They're certainly cool to have around, but they were never missed.

[fishingme]

that's a fair point. enchanters can really affect a group in all measurable ways, from killing power to crowd control to the healers mana pool. it's really starting to look like a three-horse race between bard, enchanter, and shaman.



I will say the dps output of an epic rogue is a sight to behold. it really does affect the time mobs are alive and able to deal damage, which makes life easier on everybody. the thing is though, you really don't need a lot of skill to deal a tremendous amount of damage with a ragebringer. it would seem to me that there would probably be only a small gap in terms of production between a master and novice. also, dps is really all a rogue has going for it other than dungeon scouting/lock picking. valuable yes, most valuable? hmm.

a lot of people are bringing up valid points that cleric/tank is essential for a group, which I'm not really planning to dispute. But in all honesty you can work around it without much problems. Enchanters, sure you can take them or leave them if your group is 5-10 levels higher than just breaking into a dungeon. But pure fact of the matter is that enchanters help the entire group xp faster. For a quick thought because I really don't feel like typing out 1-3 pages to explain, enchanters work fantastic solo, duo, trio. I'd rank them as #1, probably tied with epic/fungi shaman for soloing prowess. The fantastic thing about the enchanter though is 20-30k investment into gear and upgrades for the most part don't matter much, with shaman it's between 170-200k investment. If you're a fantastic soloer like an enchanter which can do so much, you bring that and buffs to a group. Once you get into old sebilis and charm starts to become very reliable at 56/57 there, a cleric is great for chealing the 9k HP pet you'll have charmed which makes a tank nearly worthless. Set your group for shaman/cleric/enchanter/whatever other casters or another enchanter for a second charmed pet and you're golden. But again I stress that it's all up to the playstyle of the people that you're with to make sure that nobody does any dumb manuevers.

TLDR: enchanter =/= viagra

[pharmakos]

did anyone say ranger yet?

[bled12345]

a lot of people are bringing up valid points that cleric/tank is essential for a group, which I'm not really planning to dispute. But in all honesty you can work around it without much problems. Enchanters, sure you can take them or leave them if your group is 5-10 levels higher than just breaking into a dungeon. But pure fact of the matter is that enchanters help the entire group xp faster. For a quick thought because I really don't feel like typing out 1-3 pages to explain, enchanters work fantastic solo, duo, trio. I'd rank them as #1, probably tied with epic/fungi shaman for soloing prowess. The fantastic thing about the enchanter though is 20-30k investment into gear and upgrades for the most part don't matter much, with shaman it's between 170-200k investment. If you're a fantastic soloer like an enchanter which can do so much, you bring that and buffs to a group. Once you get into old sebilis and charm starts to become very reliable at 56/57 there, a cleric is great for chealing the 9k HP pet you'll have charmed which makes a tank nearly worthless. Set your group for shaman/cleric/enchanter/whatever other casters or another enchanter for a second charmed pet and you're golden. But again I stress that it's all up to the playstyle of the people that you're with to make sure that nobody does any dumb manuevers.

TLDR: enchanter =/= viagra


No need for a tank when you have a charmed pet in a group? Uhhh last I checked pet's don't hold aggro. Maybe if you are in a group of caster's that can root / don't have to go into melee range I suppose.


Point being, Enchanters and shaman's are awesome, but not essential. How can they be most valuable, if they are not essential?



And I never said SK / War / Pal are the most needed, just that the Tank role in general is very important, who is best at tanking is always up for debate, but the role of tank > Ench CC. With a good cleric lull, camp can be broken without ench. With a good monk, camp can be broken. With a good tank, healer, anyone with root, multi pull camp's can be broken.



Cleric's by far, are the most important, and thus valuable class in the game.



There were so many times, an enchanter, shaman, or monk, rogue, bard etc had to leave, did /who lfg and filled their role with the first available LFG and did fine.


On the other hand, there have been groups where the cleric had to leave, and without being able to find an available cleric, the group had to either disband, move to an easier, but shitty exp spot, or we all just died / couldn't hold the camp lol.

Same with tank, regardless of which class is playing the role (even ranger) if the tank dies, or shits the bed, or doesn't hold aggro, or doesn't pay attention to adds / aggro on squishies, the group can wipe awfully fast.


ench / shaman buffs are nice, and make things go faster for sure (things are still on spawn timer and past a certain point it doesn't matter if things aren't popping)

the CC is more of a clutch "Oh fuck" play, which is awesome, but usually it means something went wrong with the group and somebody fucked up... Technically, it shouldn't ever be required in the first place if things are pulled properly, lulled properly, broken properly.


Aaaanyways lol.

[webrunner5]

I have to admit now in Kunark a WELL equipped Shaman can do the job. But in the planes it is well so so, and when Velious comes out it will be so so a hell of a lot. :eek:

It is just crazy how much less plat I have tied up in my Cleric than my Shaman. I found out on my Druid when I leveled it up having a shit pot full of mana was really not a advantage. OK, I can heal or root longer. But then I have to sit for 5 minutes or longer to get it back mana wise. So either way you have down time. You are out of mana quicker or sitting longer to med. Not much fun either way.

On the other hand the Cleric heal spells are just so damn more efficient that it is scary compared to the other healer classes. It is so much easier to play. Too the point of almost being boring compared to constantly doing something on a Shaman. But a Cleric can get boring.

You sit on your ass more but you REALLY don't need Clarity like a Druid or Shaman does. I know Canni is the shits but it is a pain to do it for hours at a time compared to just sitting on a Cleric. You can be the Leader for finding new replacements and actually talk in Tells on a Cleric.

[quido]

Depends on where the group is and what you're fighting, but overall I'd say enchanter followed by shaman.

[constelllations]

Bard.

/thread

.

[Tenlaar]

A well played bard can be the most valuable in a group, unfortunately most do not bring the full package with them. The most fun for me is when I am puller, tank, CC, charm DPS, and regen/mana battery for a group. Bard + cleric + shaman (I won't lie, having both sets of buffs makes it smoother) + 3 heavy DPS makes an absolutely killer group that will just disintegrate teh merbs.

[Lune]

so much noobishness / poor analytical skills up in here

[fishingme]

No need for a tank when you have a charmed pet in a group? Uhhh last I checked pet's don't hold aggro. Maybe if you are in a group of caster's that can root / don't have to go into melee range I suppose.


Point being, Enchanters and shaman's are awesome, but not essential. How can they be most valuable, if they are not essential?



And I never said SK / War / Pal are the most needed, just that the Tank role in general is very important, who is best at tanking is always up for debate, but the role of tank > Ench CC. With a good cleric lull, camp can be broken without ench. With a good monk, camp can be broken. With a good tank, healer, anyone with root, multi pull camp's can be broken.



Cleric's by far, are the most important, and thus valuable class in the game.



There were so many times, an enchanter, shaman, or monk, rogue, bard etc had to leave, did /who lfg and filled their role with the first available LFG and did fine.


On the other hand, there have been groups where the cleric had to leave, and without being able to find an available cleric, the group had to either disband, move to an easier, but shitty exp spot, or we all just died / couldn't hold the camp lol.

Same with tank, regardless of which class is playing the role (even ranger) if the tank dies, or shits the bed, or doesn't hold aggro, or doesn't pay attention to adds / aggro on squishies, the group can wipe awfully fast.


ench / shaman buffs are nice, and make things go faster for sure (things are still on spawn timer and past a certain point it doesn't matter if things aren't popping)

the CC is more of a clutch "Oh fuck" play, which is awesome, but usually it means something went wrong with the group and somebody fucked up... Technically, it shouldn't ever be required in the first place if things are pulled properly, lulled properly, broken properly.


Aaaanyways lol.

I believe i explained group play style/class selection in my earlier post, I'd suggest re-reading it, I will gladly explain it more thoroughly if you need. Enchanters practically bring dps/tank into a group with a charmed pet, take for old seb for example a hasted frog will hit for upwards of 100 damage very quickly, and with a pet that has 9k hp there is your tank, sure it can't "hold" aggro, but that's easily fixed with a root. With the group that I have in mind specifically for an enchanter, there would be no melee. Enchanter is a very universal class. Look at all the (forgot what it was called exactly) but that one dude's solo challenge, you bring a class as powerful as an enchanter into a group then you're golden. I was soloing all of LCY on my shaman at 52, and most of it on my enchanter at the same level. But in reality it does depend on the classes/levels in your group. Karnor's in a certain way is a "low" level dungeon. Of course you won't need an enchanter if you have people in your group for say, LCY if you have a few people over 55. But try to hold LCY with a group of low level 50's(no one above 53 or 54) then add an enchanter into the mix and you will notice a significant bump in xp and ease of playing because you're not having to calculate mana/heals as much.

Clerics, ya know it's really last resort that you want them to be out pulling when their time is better spent meditating. Yes, traditional groups tend to die/disband without a healer it is sad but it happens. I suppose you're right if you want to get down to the knitty gritty of a pure group where you have a bunch of melee and what not, but nearly every offhealing class can fill the roll of a cleric in a group. Heh, I've been in groups where I've had druids healing on p99 and paladins healing back on live.


Same with tank, regardless of which class is playing the role (even ranger) if the tank dies, or shits the bed, or doesn't hold aggro, or doesn't pay attention to adds / aggro on squishies, the group can wipe awfully fast.

easily fixed with either a shaman for slow (very OP) or enchanter for slow/aoe mez.

[hatelore]

You are all smoking, Troll shadowknight is by far the most uselful class. Followed by a human monk or human ranger. These are all facts that can be found at facts.com.

[Tenlaar]

With the group that I have in mind specifically for an enchanter, there would be no melee.

You're talking about groups specifically built around a single class and just excluding anybody from the group who can't work with it. Nobody else is.

[webrunner5]

Yeah but as he said you don't NEED a Chanter in a group to XP. You NEED a healer if you have a tank etc.

[Daldolma]

Anyone not saying an enchanter doesn't know what they're talking about. An enchanter is a group.

Distant second is shaman. Third is monk.

Hybrids are more trouble than they're worth. The exp penalty kills their utility. Warriors are unnecessary for groups. Rogues and wizards are too one-dimensional. Druids provide nothing that can't be done better by enchanters and shamans. Mages and necros are nice but never indispensable.

[webrunner5]

When Velious comes out a Enchanter will be pretty gimped on a lot of mobs. More Resists, more mobs that can't be mezzed, more mobs that summon. They will die a lot more also. More reasons for the Cleric. :D

[fishingme]

You're talking about groups specifically built around a single class and just excluding anybody from the group who can't work with it. Nobody else is.

What's your point? A group built around a single class is still a group.

[Lojik]

The answer to this question depends entirely on how much you weight the different scenarios a class will be in, whether it be solo/duo/trio/full group/plane clears/high end boss mobs/whatever else.

[constelllations]

Anyone not saying an enchanter doesn't know what they're talking about. An enchanter is a group.

Distant second is shaman. Third is monk.

a bard can mez, regen, mana regen, selo's, haste, charm... they are the most versatile and underutilized class in the game and, when played right, an incredibly powerful addition to any group

[Daldolma]

Yeah but as he said you don't NEED a Chanter in a group to XP. You NEED a healer if you have a tank etc.

Healer =\= cleric. In plenty of situations, and particularly in most high end camps, a shaman is at least as effective at healing as a cleric.

With an enchanter in your group, you don't need anything else. If you lack a tank, you can pet tank. If you lack DPS, the charm will do the work. If you lack a healer, the enchanter can calm heal his own tanking pet. If you lack a puller, the enchanter can calm split. If you have everything, the enchanter will increase the value of your melees with haste and increase the value of your casters with clarity. They will CC, to ensure against bad pulls. They will charm to add elite DPS. And they won't suck hybrid exp while doing it.

[Daldolma]

a bard can mez, regen, mana regen, selo's, haste, charm... they are the most versatile and underutilized class in the game and, when played right, an incredibly powerful addition to any group

A bard sucks more exp than they add, and they're less effective against high end mobs. They're a nice class, but there's no situation when a bard is preferable to an enchanter. If you're exping, they're usually a net negative.

[constelllations]

A bard sucks more exp than they add, and they're less effective against high end mobs. They're a nice class, but there's no situation when a bard is preferable to an enchanter. If you're exping, they're usually a net negative.

the question was "what class, when played masterfully, can bring out the best in a group?"

[Daldolma]

the question was "what class, when played masterfully, can bring out the best in a group?"

I'd assume "the best in a group" involves gaining experience.

[Jimjam]

Yeah but as he said you don't NEED a Chanter in a group to XP. You NEED a healer if you have a tank etc.

That's a criticism on the tank and spank strategy, not a criticism on enchanters.

[Cecily]

What's the most valuable class in a game based on class synergy? None of them.

[Byrjun]

Cleric is definitely required in high-end groups. Druid/Shamans (with Chanter or Bard mana regen) can heal in Karnor's-type content. When you get into higher Sebilis/Charasis/Chardok though Clerics become necessary.

Everyone saying any class is necessary is automatically wrong. You don't need a warrior/sk/paladin, and you don't need a cleric. I've main healed every single mob in Sebilis except for Trakanon as a shaman.

[webrunner5]

Everyone saying any class is necessary is automatically wrong. You don't need a warrior/sk/paladin, and you don't need a cleric. I've main healed every single mob in Sebilis except for Trakanon as a shaman.

Yeah, but not everyone is as big as a Twink as you!! :p:p Check his Magelo. He has done well. And I thought my Shaman was a Twink.

[Byrjun]

Yeah, but not everyone is as big as a Twink as you!! :p:p

Twink? I worked up from 0 plat and raw hide and banded armor on my shaman, brodawg.

[webrunner5]

Twink? I worked up from 0 plat and raw hide and banded armor on my shaman, brodawg.

Well I think most people on here started with the same.

[Xelris]

The tank is the core of the group and the hardest slot to fill for both gear and class capability, and represents the backbone of the group.

Think about it. A shitty healer can keep a great tank alive, but a great healer may not be able to keep a shitty tank alive. Enchanters are great and all but aren't as necessary as people are making out (and I'm saying that as someone who mained one on live and here as well as a tank and support melee).

EQ is surprisingly nuanced with simple tasks, and tanking is usually the biggest "gear check" for what encounters you can handle. Back in the day, noone on my server would touch King in seb unless you had at least a decent 60 war or an even better SK/Pal. In this particular case you really wanted that, along with an enc of at least level 58 (rapture) and a cleric of at least 56. See where the level check was?

Finally, for the skill check, the tank controls positioning, which is arguably 90% of the raid game and a significant part of the group game. A great tank is keenly aware of what the crowd control is doing and reacts to assist it, as well as having the gear necessary to survive things going wrong. Yes, good CC and good healing make things go smoother, but the machine doesn't move at all without someone to take the hits.

Anyhow they seemed underrepresented in this thread and I was surprised, and granted some unconventional groups / soloers don't use tanks, but that doesn't take away from my point.

[Duckwalk]

Most of the worst laziest players I've ever seen have been tanks who afk auto attack.

Enchanters by far bring the most to a group. With traditional groups try bring haste mezz clarity, charm dps, etc.

Outside of traditional groups chanters have great synergy also with fear, charm, lull, CC.

They fit anywhere. Not really much discussion.

[Kender]

Anyone not saying an enchanter doesn't know what they're talking about. An enchanter is a group.

Distant second is shaman. Third is monk.

Hybrids are more trouble than they're worth. The exp penalty kills their utility. Warriors are unnecessary for groups. Rogues and wizards are too one-dimensional. Druids provide nothing that can't be done better by enchanters and shamans. Mages and necros are nice but never indispensable.

xp penalty doesnt kill utility, just the xp gained from using them

warriors can auto attack, taunt, bash or kick occasionally and pray for procs until raid tim when they actually get utility with evasive and defensive

sk's get snare fear fd pulling lifetap healing etc
pallies get healing stuns root (which is huge) lull etc

both have more utility outside a raid. of course in a raid both are meh.

and noone can dispute the utility a bard brings

back on topic. great bards and chanters are awesome. crap versions of each need to be removed from grp

[Danth]

Third is monk.

Hybrids are more trouble than they're worth. The exp penalty kills their utility.

P1999 thinking in a nutshell: 40% hybrid penalty, too much. 44% Iksar monk penalty (most monks being Iksar) escapes notice, though. C'est la vie. As with so many things, perception becomes more important than actuality.

----------------------------

As for the most valuable class: I'd rate it as Enchanter in a skilled group, or Cleric in an otherwise incompetent group.

Danth

[Splorf22]

The interesting thing about EQ is that the defensive classes are much more interesting/harder to play than the offensive ones. It doesn't take much to hit auto attack, cast ice comet, or ask your pet to go beat on something; its substantially harder to split camps and CC adds. So the strongest group classes are the defensive classes, the ones that keep you alive, and the ones with the best group buffs.

So I think Enchanter and Bard are the best group classes, followed at some distance by Shaman and Monk. This is why I actually think Enchanter/Monk is a fabulous duo. Sure you need a healer, but you can get by with any scrub there.

[Daldaen]

Everyone saying any class is necessary is automatically wrong. You don't need a warrior/sk/paladin, and you don't need a cleric. I've main healed every single mob in Sebilis except for Trakanon as a shaman.
Torpor is so stupidly OP. It makes me sad sometimes.

[sox7d]

wizards are responsible for ~%15 of raid content.

you're welcome
-the wizards

[Tenlaar]

P1999 thinking in a nutshell: 40% hybrid penalty, too much. 44% Iksar monk penalty (most monks being Iksar) escapes notice, though.

This annoys me to no end. And all a monk does is punch stuff!

[Cecily]

Puller, tank, dps. Worth every bit of the penalty.

[bigsykedaddy]

Rogue

[Rec]

Being a required role/class does not equal being the most valuable class.

[Destron]

The way I took the question was what class has the most upside when played to it's fullest.

To me that is bard hands down. The problem is there are so few on this server that as a whole we have a very bad reputation of kiting to 60 and not knowing how to group. Stereotypes are there for a reason but I still think a bard that is properly played is a great addition to a group.

I'm a bard and if I can get in a group with a chanter, its gg. Double CC and Double charm is unstoppable. Pull two, charm one, chanter has a charmed pet. My pet charmed until the first mob dies. Mez pet, go pull another two, charm one. Continue that for quite a while until we start to run into mana issues. Most groups split up before I ever run into mana issues.

Bards can impact a group more than any class hands down when played properly.

[webrunner5]

Yeah, but like it has been said, if the Tank or the healer leaves the group is pretty much over with. I know people will say well hell the Enchanter can charm and the group goes on is full of shit. I have been playing this game non stop since early 2000. It rarely works that way. The group is finished plain and simple. :(

[Mehrk]

In your experience, what class, when played masterfully, can bring out the best in a group?

More of a "Which class, when played by a master, can take a group to the next level?" I know that's vague, but I'm interested to see what some of the veterans on here have to say.

This is the real question. Not "which class is the most valuable." The question is which class makes the group as a whole operate more efficiently. This question automatically reduces the options greatly as many classes don't generally do jack shit.

Enchanters are the only caster that does anything relevantly intelligent in a group.

Shamans and occasionally a good druid are the only priests, but shamans do way more. Sorry druids, my main on live was one until late SoL and was on p99 till kunark. Clerics sit on their ass and drink cheetoh flavored mountain dew. Their value is equal to a wooden sipping bird placed over a CH hotkey.

Melee dps are mostly afk with their cat sitting on autoattack. Monks can pull, but so can bards.

Tanks aren't even necessary in a good group for group content.

Bards are really a class of their own as their melee is too piss-poor to be considered melee dps.

Basically the question comes down to "Is enchanter, shaman or bard the best class in a typical group?"

Overall, a knowledgeable bard should bring more to your typical party than any other class. When I say typical I mean not a static group but with random makeups every time. Part of what they bring to a group is the fact that you no longer need certain other classes to function at a higher level, as they can cover many roles in absence of another.

[Splorf22]

The way I took the question was what class has the most upside when played to it's fullest.

To me that is bard hands down. The problem is there are so few on this server that as a whole we have a very bad reputation of kiting to 60 and not knowing how to group. Stereotypes are there for a reason but I still think a bard that is properly played is a great addition to a group.

I'm a bard and if I can get in a group with a chanter, its gg. Double CC and Double charm is unstoppable. Pull two, charm one, chanter has a charmed pet. My pet charmed until the first mob dies. Mez pet, go pull another two, charm one. Continue that for quite a while until we start to run into mana issues. Most groups split up before I ever run into mana issues.

Bards can impact a group more than any class hands down when played properly.

I have played a bard (and yes, I was good at it and constantly got comments about 'god bards are op' etc). Enchanters are just better.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Monks and other pullers. They determine whether you get raid targets 90% of the time.

As far as what class is in shortest supply, bard supply is ludicrously lower than demand.

[Dweed]

Enchanter is by far the best dps, and also makes every other class perform at max capacity via buffs. Not to mention the best CCs that enable the most efficient groups.

[Proven Guilty]

Necromancer

Heal pumps, mana dumps, FD split, "oh shit" rezzing, very good dps and pet offtanking, fear kiting if necessary, can often mez or charm if fighting near undead. Self healing. They really are my favorite addition in a group when played masterfully.

[Daldolma]

Bards are getting way too much love. They can do a lot of things, but they're really unnecessary for a group's optimal performance. An enchanter is the best class in the game for DPS, CC, and tanking (pet). A shaman is the best class in the game for slowing. A cleric is the best class in the game for healing. A monk is the best melee class in the game.

That's everything you need. There's almost never a scenario where you're going to be better off with a bard than one of the above classes. Most of the arguments people are making in favor of bards apply to enchanters, but enchanters are better at it.

The only scenarios where a bard is going to be more useful than one of the above classes is if you need Selo's (basically just for pulling raid mobs) or resist songs (basically just for raid mobs, also).

[hatelore]

Puller, tank, dps. Worth every bit of the penalty.

Very glad to see cec agrees with me on troll shadowknights! <3

[Destron]

My argument is that bards can CC just as well as chanters for 95% of camps on p99.

Bards can charm and bring dps the same way a chanter can. The bard can chain pull more efficiently than a monk at most camps. When the bard leaves the camp to go pull the group does not lose much dps.

Bards bring more to a group than any single class. When that class is played to it's full potential I don't see how you can make an argument for any other class.

Chanter a close 2nd for sure, but I think Bards have to be at the top of the list here due to the number of tools available.

[Daldolma]

Most of your premises are false. Bards can't CC as well as a good enchanter, particularly at the higher end. But even at the lower end, a good enchanter is a more effective CC'er than an equally good bard.

Bards can't charm nearly as effectively as enchanters can, either. Not even close. Their charm breaks every 3 ticks, and they can't load their pets with huge haste. They have much less control over their charms and that severely limits their charm options. Bard charm is more of a CC tool than anything else.

And your whole argument for bard chain pulling revolves around the fact that bards aren't as useful as their counterparts. You're right, the group loses far less with a bard out pulling than with a monk out pulling. Think about that.

You say bards bring more than anyone else, but that's not really a virtue unless they're the best at the things they bring. An enchanter is better at tanking, DPS, CC, and haste. The things that set a bard apart are Selo's and resist songs, but those aren't terribly useful in a group setting. Hell, a ranger can tank, heal, snare, CC (root), buff, slow (with epic), and DPS. But they suck at all of it.

[Daldolma]

I don't mean to dismiss bards. They're very useful and a great class. In the absence of an enchanter, they would be the best class for many different camps.

But if we're talking about a vacuum where you can have whatever class you want and whatever group set-up you want, bards are usually not going to be a part of an optimal group. Enchanters are going to be more valuable in almost all settings.

[Tenlaar]

You keep saying enchanters can tank, but that's only true for a group with zero melee DPS in it. And that's just no good. A bard can be tank, puller, and CC in a group with 3-4 melee DPS, which is going to kill way faster than any caster only group.

[Sorrow*qc]

BEAST LORDS

[Destron]

I said that bards can CC just as well as chanters for 95% of camps. And I'll stand by that, it sounds like you haven't grouped with a good bard.

Yeah bard charm breaks, so does chanter, the thing is you can time it pretty well and know when it's going to break. So, for a bard playing at maximum ability the charm is very controllable.

People are not reading the original question very well.

[Lazie]

I don't mean to dismiss bards. They're very useful and a great class. In the absence of an enchanter, they would be the best class for many different camps.

But if we're talking about a vacuum where you can have whatever class you want and whatever group set-up you want, bards are usually not going to be a part of an optimal group. Enchanters are going to be more valuable in almost all settings.

Depends who is playing the bard and who is playing the enchanter. It is always the player behind the keyboard.

[Splorf22]

You keep saying enchanters can tank, but that's only true for a group with zero melee DPS in it. And that's just no good. A bard can be tank, puller, and CC in a group with 3-4 melee DPS, which is going to kill way faster than any caster only group.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=73876

Sadly postimage deleted my screenshots, but the short version is that we aggroed the guy that roams above the dropdown to hs west. This was before the assist aggro changes turned HS into a zone for pussies, so we got about 15. And we killed them all.

Enc/Enc/Clr is basically equivalent to a full group of melee, and I say this as someone with a monk and warrior.

[Splorf22]

Bards can charm and bring dps the same way a chanter can.

When the puller brings two, a bard will charm one for 30s while the group kills the first one.

Meanwhile the enchanter has a permanently charmed hasted dual-wielding pet that fights both mobs.

2x for time, 2x for dual wielding, 1.5x for haste = 6x as much charmed pet damage.

And this is really the rub: if it wasn't for charm being WTF op, Enchanters, Shamans, and Bards would all be about equal in groups, with a slight edge to the bard.

[Tenlaar]

Yeah, and five enchanters and a cleric is awesome too. But the OP was obviously asking about normal grouping situations. Not pre-planned groups, not gimick groups, not "let's do everything to take advantage of a semi-broken mechanic" groups. Just plain old groups.

[Fael]

Most of your premises are false. Bards can't CC as well as a good enchanter, particularly at the higher end. But even at the lower end, a good enchanter is a more effective CC'er than an equally good bard.

Bards can't charm nearly as effectively as enchanters can, either. Not even close.

Of course bards are not as good as enchanters. But was that the question? Certainly I would think enchanters and shamen are the best class for all types of situations. But if its a normal kunark exp group, I'd personally rather have a bard for pulling/tanking/charm,etc and an enchanter in the group for charm dps, mez, mana. I don't think you would need or want a shamen in that sort of situation. Why would you, they can just duo or trio?

Bards may not be the best, but a well played bard stands a great chance to make any given exp group go efficiently. The same can prob be said of enchanters and monks.
Or any really good puller with knowledge of how the zone pathing works, regardless of class.

Dolic

[Fael]

most importantly, i have a lot more fun playing a bard in a group setting than an enchanter or shamen, regardless of the fact that they are not as powerful.


Dolic

[Splorf22]

most importantly, i have a lot more fun playing a bard in a group setting than an enchanter or shamen, regardless of the fact that they are not as powerful.


Dolic

My bard was super fun to play, except I couldn't chat at all.

Tenlaar, what we are trying to tell you is that 95% of groups will do better if you flip the bard for an enchanter. The idea that enchanter is some sort of a gimmick class is ridiculous. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is the truth.

[cs616]

I agree it is hard to argue for a bard over a chanter, but bards are definitely way more than Selos / resists. In fact, in most exp groups bards will rarely use either of those songs. Most groups bards are either going to be pulling, CC, buffing, or some combination of those three. In terms of buffing, you're going to be using haste, atk, regen (mana & HP), and dmg shield songs way more than resists or selos in a group setting (different on raids).

I'd personally think a good bard is more valuable than a good enchanter simply because the difference between a decent enchanter and a great enchanter isn't as big as the difference between a decent bard and a good bard. Group settings just aren't where enchanters really shine imo, they're more impressive solo or in small groups (duos/trios). Trios are about the smallest group where bards really start to show their effectiveness and they really shine in full groups that are melee dps heavy.

For practical use though, really enchanter is probably the answer. Good bards are just too few and far between. I can honestly only think of 1 or 2 bards on the server aside from myself I know are good in groups - I'm sure there are others that I haven't grouped with, but either way they're no where near as abundant as mediocre enchanters who will bring way more to a group than a mediocre bard. Also, the bard epic is so game changing that it really needs to be factored in too. I think it is almost impossible to argue that a pre-epic bard can bring more to a group than an enchanter.

[bled12345]

So much enchanter love in this thread lol.


thread title "most valuable class"

way back in 1999, I didn't even really know what enchanters did exactly asides from the opening CGI sequence, so had no care if they were in the group or not. All I knew was that their pet looked cool, but was super shitty haha.


So back to thread title "most valuable class"

Playing for hundreds and hundreds of hours (sigh) on p99, on multiple characters, enchanters were always nice to have, not need to have when I was building groups.

So back to the thread title "most valuable class"

How can a class be the MVP in a group, if they are nice to have and not a need to have? :P

[bled12345]

And once again, I'm not debating the OP nature of charm, or how badass enchanter haste it, nor how good they are at CC, just that... well.... All of the content in EQ can be done with groups, or raids, without them.

The same can't be said for warriors / tanks, nor can the same be said for clerics.

Point to just even 1 mob or area of the game where something can't be done without an enchanter please! Sure they can solo things most other classes can't, or do things with just a duo, or trio, that other classes can't, but in a full, rounded 6 man group the need for them is often moot. Playing as a caster, and as a melee, in exp grinding groups in dungeons it was always cool when they were in the group (mostly just serving as clarity bots, and haste bots) , but when they left it was just business as usual lol.

And as for enchanters being awesome with charm, I have seem some pretty epic fuck ups with charm breaks in groups that either killed the enchanter, or another person in the group, or even resulted in wipes.



If I was able to pick a perfect 6 man group for exping it would be

1. Warrior
2. Rogue
3. Cleric
4. Shaman
5. Monk
6. Bard / Ench / Wiz / Nec / Mag, any of those 5 works equally fine.

Based on this list, I'd have to lean more towards picking someone from 1-5 for most valuable class instead of one of the interchangeable 6's.

[Cecily]

I want this group more often.

Monk
Rogue
Rogue
Epic Bard
Shaman
Cleric

[Rec]

mvp or in this case mvc is about your impact. You can take the best EQ player in the world let him play a warrior and he will never have the impact that he could have had if he played an enchanter.

[Confit]

I've had all sorts of experiences with people that turned a good group into a great group.

My best friend on P99, a Druid named Kaeleth, is literally the best puller I've ever had in a group. He made my job as an Enchanter super easy. He always had a steady stream of snared mobs coming into camp and would CC for me when I had to do things like re-buff or re-charm. I think Druids are very underrated in a group situation but they have a lot to bring to the table especially by someone who plays the class well.

And of course, me being totally biased, a great Enchanter can set the pace very well for a group. You don't need the perfect group set up when there's a well played Enchanter on your side. I always had a lot of fun in a trio of myself as an Ench and my two friends playing Druid and Monk. Keeping everything rooted and slowed turned the Monk into a great tank and the Druid into a great healer. Add in the DPS of a charmed pet and we would plow through mobs.

[koros]

Enchanter/Bard/Druid/Ranger/Necro

In the hands of a capable player can keep mobs nonstop in camp and being killed. Add to that tanking(ranger), ccing (all), charming (enc/bard/druid), or healing (druid/nec). If you're slowing anything ever, you're xping wrong.

[Fael]

6 man exp group I am with cecily, although I'd switch the shaman and enchanter.


Bard, Rogue, Rogue, Enchanter, Monk, Cleric

Both bard and monk split pulling and tanking duties. 2 rogue and enchanter is sick dps. Mana regene very high, dps way high.


Dolic

[myriverse]

How can a class be the MVP in a group, if they are nice to have and not a need to have? :P
Look at it this way:

Saffron, the spice, sure as fuck isn't necessary to anything in the world, but pound for pound it's the most valuable substance there is.

It all depends upon what a person is willing to value.

[koros]

If we're maxing DPS, a rogue is always going to lose to an enchanter, might as well add another of those and drop the rogue.

[Fael]

I dunno, 1 enchanter w/ pet is enough for me. I like the control of 2 rogues, 1 ench. Takes away the risk of big pull plus double pet break, etc. Yeah, 2 ench should be able to control that, but some can't.


Dolic

[Fael]

My bard was super fun to play, except I couldn't chat at all.

Tenlaar, what we are trying to tell you is that 95% of groups will do better if you flip the bard for an enchanter. The idea that enchanter is some sort of a gimmick class is ridiculous. I'm sorry if this offends you, but it is the truth.

Naga Twelve button mouse bro!


Dolic

[koros]

If anything adding more enchanters should make big pulls easier. Rogues can't do much except stab things for sub charmed pet dps.

[cs616]

If anything adding more enchanters should make big pulls easier. Rogues can't do much except stab things for sub charmed pet dps.

I'd need to parse it, but I would think that a fully buffed rogue with a bard could stack up to a charmed pet in terms of DPS. VoG + Bard Epic + Atk song is going to boost the rogue DPS a lot.

Bards are even better if you switch out rogues for monks imo. With monks ability to tank, plus mend, plus bard regen, you can be ridiculously efficient with heals. Torpor Shaman + Bard + Enchanter + 3 Monks using T-staff would be an absolutely silly group in terms of efficiency. Sure you lose hero/symbol/CH from a cleric, but with that group it would be able sharing the dmg taken between the monks and relying mostly on regen to cover heals, so it shouldn't really matter what the maximum HP of the tanking classes is. Also, a shaman over a cleric for stat buffs and regen. Regrowth and Dex on 3 t-staff wielding monks would make a bigger difference in the group dynamic than the extra HP from a cleric imo.

[heartbrand]

cleric

[Clark]

Enchanter

[Issues]

This question is very situation dependent.

Obviously a cleric is the most valuable class in a group - CH nuf said. If you have a cleric next would be Enchanter. Mana regen, CC, haste, slows, best dps in game with charm. Once you have Clr/enc you can do w/e.

[Cecily]

If we're maxing DPS, a rogue is always going to lose to an enchanter, might as well add another of those and drop the rogue.

I'd have to dig through a mountain of backup logs, but I've definitely outparsed horse pets on sky raids.Think those things are tad meaner than what you'd find in a Seb group. Anyways, I agree. 3 enchanters would be amazing. Good luck finding them vs a couple of rogues. Comparable DPS anyways.

[Splorf22]

1. Warrior
2. Rogue
3. Cleric
4. Shaman
5. Monk
6. Bard / Ench / Wiz / Nec / Mag, any of those 5 works equally fine.

You have no idea what you are talking about if you think a Mage and an Enchanter would be equally effective as the 6th man in those groups. None. Edit: my god, you even suggested a wizard could replace an enchanter. Its hard to imagine you have ever even played this game before.


Bard, Rogue, Rogue, Enchanter, Monk, Cleric


See, my thing is all 6-man groups are boring and bad xp because there just aren't enough mobs. If those guys are all 60, you're looking at Bard(25) Rogue (85) Rogue (85) Monk (70) Enchanter (100) = 365 dps. That's enough to kill a Krup knight in 20 seconds.

My favorite group is [monk or warrior depending on the situation]/sham/enc. I bet I could hold down most of the chef/bar area with that trio.

[bled12345]

Well are we talking about end game groups, or all the way from level 5-60.

Enchanters at level 30 play a whole lot differently than an enchanter in a level 60 group, but then again in a level 60 group are you exping or just going for fat lewts?

How bout this then, in a groups, all the way from the start of groups around level 5 up to level 60, who is the most valuable class?

Clerics don't really start to shine until cheal, druids and shamans can fill the cleric spot up till then no problem.

Monks don't really have much on warriors / sk / pal in the 5-50 range imo.

Warriors are always a solid pick from 5-60 in any group.

Enchanters kind of feel like dead weight until the mid 20's and 30+

Bard's can start being really awesome in their 20's.

Rogues are ok melee but don't start to shine DPS wise until they get decked out with gear, and hit the higher levels....


groups from 5-50 are totally different than 55-60 groups, in terms of their individual class abilities.

[Splorf22]

I'd have to dig through a mountain of backup logs, but I've definitely outparsed horse pets on sky raids.Think those things are tad meaner than what you'd find in a Seb group. Anyways, I agree. 3 enchanters would be amazing. Good luck finding them vs a couple of rogues. Comparable DPS anyways.

Nowadays it isn't that hard because they don't dual wield. Back in the day it would be extremely hard to imagine unless it was a 20s fight and you got lucky with duellist and avatar or whatnot.

GOD I NEED TO GET BACK TO WORK

[Splorf22]

nonsense

A L25 enchanter can go to mistmoore, charm a backstabbing rogue pet, and watch mobs HP bar drop by 25% on incoming. On my twink monk I grouped with one and we were clearing the pond, tunnel, GY, and part of a pit as a trio.

And 1-25 takes like 2 weeks if that, so who cares anyway.

GOING BACK TO WORK FOR REAL

[Cecily]

Nowadays it isn't that hard because they don't dual wield. Back in the day it would be extremely hard to imagine unless it was a 20s fight and you got lucky with duellist and avatar or whatnot.

GOD I NEED TO GET BACK TO WORK

Was way before that nerf.

Omg I'm a fire giant.

[koros]

I'd have to dig through a mountain of backup logs, but I've definitely outparsed horse pets on sky raids.Think those things are tad meaner than what you'd find in a Seb group. Anyways, I agree. 3 enchanters would be amazing. Good luck finding them vs a couple of rogues. Comparable DPS anyways.

Can those quad?

NM: Splorf answered

[Gaffin 7.0]

I want this group more often.

Monk
Rogue
Rogue
Epic Bard
Shaman
Cleric

p much my fav grp

[bled12345]

You have no idea what you are talking about if you think a Mage and an Enchanter would be equally effective as the 6th man in those groups. None. Edit: my god, you even suggested a wizard could replace an enchanter. Its hard to imagine you have ever even played this game before.



See, my thing is all 6-man groups are boring and bad xp because there just aren't enough mobs. If those guys are all 60, you're looking at Bard(25) Rogue (85) Rogue (85) Monk (70) Enchanter (100) = 365 dps. That's enough to kill a Krup knight in 20 seconds.

My favorite group is [monk or warrior depending on the situation]/sham/enc. I bet I could hold down most of the chef/bar area with that trio.


Pre 40+ sure a wizard / mage can replace an enchanter. Mage has sustained DPS, a backstabbing pet for groups, and even in high levels can pump clerics with mod rods.

And as for wizard's, sure why not? They have their place in groups for sure. On big pulls, the burst DPS is pretty cool for putting mobs down fast. The point I was trying to make, is that the 6th position really doesn't matter, and its all just a bonus rounding out the core of the group.


And I couldn't agree more on the 6 man groups, even when I was leveling up my warrior, I usually preferred to just roll with a druid buddy, or a cleric friend, or a shaman friend, and just duo it up.

Duo > 3-6 man groups... Every time, 6 man group exp is so very very painful lol.

and if we are going to talk about ridiculous group builds, like 3 enchanters and a cleric, well fuck, why not just 6 mages in a group? I wonder if 6 level 60 mages could take down vox / naggy if there weren't guilds pressuring to get the kill lol... I think they'd give the dragons a good run for their money.


Yep, that's my preferred 6 man group, 6 mages.



Side note, when dark ascension was pushing hard in plane of sky prior to kunark release, we were all level 50, and the key to our success in downing server firsts and EQ all time vanilla firsts, was spamming mage pets lol.... The rest of the raid on efreeti (I think that's his name) was pretty much irrelevant, we tried chain cheal's but tanks died too fast, it all ended up boiling down to people hopping on their mages and spamming the fuck out of their OP pets hahaha.


Mages ftw!!

[Tecmos Deception]

You heard it here, folks. Mod rods > c/c2. Wizard DPS > charmed pet DPS.

Even wizard burst, the one thing they almost have going for them, is overrated, because you can't burst mobs without pulling aggro off the tank (or probably breaking root and also pulling aggro). I guess if you want to limit the situation to snared, sub-51 mobs where the wizard is already at max casting range so that he doesn't lose 1/2 of his theoretical burn DPS trying to kite... then sure. Wizards can burst 1 thing down then need to med up for 7 minutes.

[Jimjam]

In a mistmoore pool group I'd rather have the bard. it seems they can pull the whole pool/corridor area in one go and lock it down ready for killing with aoe mez!

[Confit]

See, my thing is all 6-man groups are boring and bad xp because there just aren't enough mobs. If those guys are all 60, you're looking at Bard(25) Rogue (85) Rogue (85) Monk (70) Enchanter (100) = 365 dps. That's enough to kill a Krup knight in 20 seconds.

My favorite group is [monk or warrior depending on the situation]/sham/enc. I bet I could hold down most of the chef/bar area with that trio.

I agree 100% with Loraen here. 6 man groups are boring and are bad exp. You can definitely hold down chef/bar with that trio. I've done it grouped with a monk and a druid, all sub level 60 with a mix of planar gear and BIS tradeables.

[Mandalore93]

Assuming you're doing this as a tier list sort of discussion then anything but the best player at their class at maximum power is irrelevant.

In Kunark Enchanters reign king it seems. Once you get to Velious and a lot of mobs are straight up 100% stun and mes resistant bard takes over since they still have their ridiculous snares to kite for CC. At level 60, Bard snare is 80%+ if I recall correctly.

Luclin and PoP reboosted the Enchanter nicely since they could dire charm and a lot of mobs went back to normal and weren't the dragon/giant/wyvern races.

[Jimjam]

It was GoD where enchanters were GoDs. Iirc they had to nerf the mobs as they were way, way, way too powerful when charmed compared to players.

[bled12345]

You heard it here, folks. Mod rods > c/c2. Wizard DPS > charmed pet DPS.

Even wizard burst, the one thing they almost have going for them, is overrated, because you can't burst mobs without pulling aggro off the tank (or probably breaking root and also pulling aggro). I guess if you want to limit the situation to snared, sub-51 mobs where the wizard is already at max casting range so that he doesn't lose 1/2 of his theoretical burn DPS trying to kite... then sure. Wizards can burst 1 thing down then need to med up for 7 minutes.


lol your self righteous arrogance is good for some lulz, a tecmos post is always funny to read so at least you have that going for you I guess.

I never said mod rods > clarity, or wizard dps > charmed pet DPS. I just said that they get the job done in the 6th position of my ideal group, and that they still bring things to the table. L2read and L2forum brotato.

Sorry though, I shouldn't doubt your god mode grasp of all things EQ, it won't happen again sir!

[Daldolma]

Yeah, and five enchanters and a cleric is awesome too. But the OP was obviously asking about normal grouping situations. Not pre-planned groups, not gimick groups, not "let's do everything to take advantage of a semi-broken mechanic" groups. Just plain old groups.

What makes a group "normal" or not?

For the most part, a bard is going to need a tank, a healer, and at least one DPS class to be a part of an effective group. That means you're dedicating four group slots to making a bard a meaningful part of your group. If you can't find a tank, or a healer, or a DPS, your group is going to underperform badly, bard or no bard.

Enchanters eliminate that requirement. With an enchanter, your group doesn't need a tank. The charm can tank. It doesn't need DPS. The charm is elite DPS. It barely needs a healer. You can fill and go.

And if we're talking about an optimal group, you really just want to stack enchanters. Put a bunch of enchanters with a cleric, and you're basically raid-ready.

[Fael]

My favorite group is [monk or warrior depending on the situation]/sham/enc. I bet I could hold down most of the chef/bar area with that trio.

Fair enough. But the elite of the elite classes like shamen/ench/cleric aren't really needed unless your doing something that requires serious tanking or slow (ixi, prot, king, etc.).

I've done a lot of 3 man HS South. A Bard Cleric Enchanter/rogue group can lock down all 5 mobs with relative ease (particularly once a shitty name pops in the cave.) Perhaps you don't need a bard to do it, but I think it certainly is a lot more of a pain in the ass to move around to each camp as a shaman/ench combo.

Also, epic bard should be a lot more than 25 dps. Damage shield alone is 46 per hit when stacked properly.

I'm not saying a bard is as powerful as any of those classes. I'm just saying adding a bard into the mix as the tank / puller in small 3 man groups is a very efficient experience due to their broad utility.

Obviously 2 enchanters and a cleric/shaman is a pretty OP trio.

Dolic

[Gaffin 7.0]

screw all these enchanters blah blah more rogues the better

[JayN]

Shaman are kings of EQ atm, but its really fucking lame raiding as one

[webrunner5]

Well the big problem now with any class in a group is the mobs die so fast that it hardly really matters who is in the group. I know when I pull at times in say LCY hell all I seem to do is pull lol. By the time you bring a mob back and the Chanter pet, Tank, Rogue jumps on it the mob is down to 30% and time to go get another one. Even the Healers are beating on it at times.

So I guess what I am saying is the PULLER is the game changer in a group now. How good he is getting them, and not getting half the zone at once. :eek:

[webrunner5]

Double post.

[HeallunRumblebelly]

Well the big problem now with any class in a group is the mobs die so fast that it hardly really matters who is in the group. I know when I pull at times in say LCY hell all I seem to do is pull lol. By the time you bring a mob back and the Chanter pet, Tank, Rogue jumps on it the mob is down to 30% and time to go get another one. Even the Healers are beating on it at times.

So I guess what I am saying is the PULLER is the game changer in a group now. How good he is getting them, and not getting half the zone at once. :eek:

Pullers won't be the end all be all they are now in velious. Mobs just don't fall over at the sight of 30 people in velious like they do in kunark :p

[kotton05]

monk

/thread