Agility on a tank

[Estu]

I just yesterday decided to remake my level 7 ogre warrior as a dwarven paladin (this is once I realized that all I'd ever be able to actively do would be essentially to taunt, bash, and kick). I've been contemplating what starting stats to go for and what stats to eventually get gear for, and one thing I never hear much of is Agility on a tank. Yet, it seems like the logical base stat to go for other than Stamina. Obviously taking hits is more important than DPSing, and I can aggro with spells as a paladin, so it seems like Strength and Dexterity are relatively low priorities. My question is, then, shouldn't Agility be the logical next stat to max out after Stamina (assuming, of course, that I'm also working on the actual AC on my gear, not just going for AGI at any cost)? At the low levels I've been playing, Agility seems to make a much bigger difference in AC than Stamina does in HP; two points of Stamina on my warrior only increased his HP by one point. What's the situation at higher levels?

[mgellan]

I realized that all I'd ever be able to actively do would be essentially to taunt, bash, and kick)

Jeez, dunno what kind of warrior you play but my warrior pulls, positions mobs, manages aggro (as best I can with limited tools,) moves mobs around so chanters can target them easier, watches the entire group health to make sure no one is being beaten on, and otherwise runs the whole encounter for the group cooperatively with other classes as might be in the group. Whether I do this successfully is something I'm skilling up on, but saying all a tank does is taunt bash and kick means a pretty crappy tank... you don't have to be a caster to have stuff to do!!! Level up to the point where you can get into a close dungeon like UGuk and you'll find a whole new dimension of tanking...

Regards,
Mg

[Estu]

Dude, I'm aware that tanking includes all those factors. My point was that I only had something like four active skills to work with. A paladin would do all those things you listed while having a lot more to work spell-wise. Let's not derail the thread into what tanks do or don't do.

[Harmonicdeth]

See I am curious on the returns of agility as well...With my ranger I have feet like Cat, when I cast it on myself it gives me something like 5 ac total... So I am unsure of the actual calculation, maybe MMiles will enlighten us.

[Seeatee]

Jeez, dunno what kind of warrior you play but my warrior pulls, positions mobs, manages aggro (as best I can with limited tools,) moves mobs around so chanters can target them easier, watches the entire group health to make sure no one is being beaten on, and otherwise runs the whole encounter for the group cooperatively with other classes as might be in the group. Whether I do this successfully is something I'm skilling up on, but saying all a tank does is taunt bash and kick means a pretty crappy tank... you don't have to be a caster to have stuff to do!!! Level up to the point where you can get into a close dungeon like UGuk and you'll find a whole new dimension of tanking...

Regards,
Mg

a SK and a pally does all the same stuff as well when tanking, so that doesn't really enter the equation, any good tank does those things, on top of that , a war only has 2 or 3 buttons to press where as a knight has more options to make things slightly more interesting with spells on top of taunt / bash .

;)

[Itchybottom]

If the hate code hasn't been thoroughly gutted from KimLS's version on this server, strength would be the next logical stat to invest points into if your gear does not cap you (which I guess, it might depending on race) because hate is generated based on calculated damage, and not actual. So a miss for 65 damage, is still 65 damage worth of hate. Stuns are the great (even resisted) at keeping aggro on EQEMU, so I'm not sure it would really matter that much either way. Maybe think ahead for a Jeldorin and go dex?

[Estu]

Interesting weapon, Itchybottom, but I hesitate to base my entire stat development on getting a single weapon. I'll keep in mind that procs can be useful defensively as well as offensively, though.

[Braveguard]

Mitigation versus avoidance makes my head hurt.

[Molitoth]

Keep in mind AGI is one of the hardest stats to find on items for a paladin... so putting some into base stats may be a wise thing to do.

STR/STA/WIS are really easy to get on items.

[Estu]

I know I'm at least putting in 5 points to get it from 70 to 75, since apparently there's a big penalty for having agi < 75.

[fugazi]

Yeah, and you also get a penalty when you're at low hp no? Might want to take that into consideration too. Or just screw that and go halfling and dump all your points into str and sta ;)

[Dantes]

AGI vs STA was always the source of many arguments on my server during live. I created a Wood Elf Warrior back then, maxed AGI with my starting points and equipped AGI gear wherever I didn't have to sacrifice AC. AC/AGI was my focus. If a piece of gear had higher AC but no stat bonuses, I would opt for the higher AC. Since I wasn't going for an Ogre like a min/maxer, I decided I may as well take advantage of my innately high AGI and try to achieve the highest AC possible.

At end-game I was an effective tank, but that great AC only helped me against mobs that hit hard, not against hard hitting magic. A DD or a DOT still does the same damage, and in that case only HPs can keep you alive. I was at more risk to die in those cases, but I could rock the shit out of other melees in duels and tank giants all day. I had magic resist gear for raids anyway.

One thing to consider, as a Paladin, your use of the AC beyond the softcap is not as effective as that of a Warrior. Although as a knight class, you are second in line for how much of your AC beyond the softcap counts.

I think it really comes down to which stat is going to harder to raise later in the game, having an extra 20 points in that could come in handy.

[Bubbles]

At end-game I was an effective tank, but that great AC only helped me against mobs that hit hard, not against hard hitting magic. A DD or a DOT still does the same damage, and in that case only HPs can keep you alive. I was at more risk to die in those cases, but I could rock the shit out of other melees in duels and tank giants all day. I had magic resist gear for raids anyway.


This. 1000x this.

[Estu]

What softcap are you talking about, Dantes? I like your point about magic, but doesn't the question then become "do I go for AC/Agi and resists or STA/HP"?

[mmiles8]

See I am curious on the returns of agility as well...With my ranger I have feet like Cat, when I cast it on myself it gives me something like 5 ac total... So I am unsure of the actual calculation, maybe MMiles will enlighten us.

Ask and ye shall receive.

For your displayed AC, your agility is added to 16/9 of your defense skill, and added to other things that influence overall melee damage prevention. The server handles the individual avoidance and mitigation components individually. Enchanter AC buffs will cause you to avoid more attacks. Cleric and Shaman AC buffs will grant you more mitigation from those attacks. Not all AC is created equal, but equal AC should result in equal damage prevention. There are soft caps on worn AC returns.

http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=104134&postcount=8
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=107224&postcount=68
http://www.project1999.org/forums/showpost.php?p=107230&postcount=70


If you stand around taking damage for an hour, you'll avoid some of it, and you'll mitigate some of it. Think of your displayed AC as the average of all of those things, after law of large numbers is applied.

Your agility is also combined with your dodge skill to affect how often you dodge. So you do get to double dip agility beyond your displayed AC in this sense.

To get to the deeper question, you can't break it all down into one nutshell stat that you should max beyond all else. In Kunark, the mantra was AC is king. In Velious, two opposing camps sprung up over AC vs resists. Resists in theory are great, but in the verant era, resistances were futile.

Here, I've observed clear benefits from small changes in resists. Resists also offer utility beyond damage prevention. It's hard to calculate and measure the value of not getting rooted or feared.

Dex could be argued to be equally important because all the mitigation in the world isn't doing anyone any good if you aren't getting the PPM to keep sufficient, sustained aggro.

I'd advocate well rounded stat choices over bottlenecking yourself into one stat.

[Estu]

Thanks, Miles - though, is maintaining aggro that hard on a pally who can cast things like flash of light or stun? It seems like the top priority should really be damage mitigation over dps - am I wrong? Anyway, given all the talk in this thread, I think I'm gonna be going mainly for HP, Sta, AC, Agi, and resists.

[Tseng]

Thanks, Miles - though, is maintaining aggro that hard on a pally who can cast things like flash of light or stun? It seems like the top priority should really be damage mitigation over dps - am I wrong? Anyway, given all the talk in this thread, I think I'm gonna be going mainly for HP, Sta, AC, Agi, and resists.

Your aggro is going to come from spells

[mmiles8]

Dex comment applies to warriors. I skimmed the thread and missed that you were a hybrid.

[Lagaidh]

I know I'm at least putting in 5 points to get it from 70 to 75, since apparently there's a big penalty for having agi < 75.

This. I always made sure my dwarves had at least the 75 base agi. Well, after my first one anyway.

Live Lagaidh Smif still has the base 63 charisma to prove he misspent his starting points. I regretted not having 75 base agi until the gear became so retarded that all stats were over 300.

[Noleafclover]

You don't have to put the base 5 in, I'll sell you a Djarn's amethyst ring for 8.5k, that's my newbie deal =p

Devs have said several times agility and avoidance ac are not working correctly on this server (in a negative way). Exactly how they don't seem too sure, or else they'd fix it, but it's something to be aware of.

Also worth mentioning, you won't be mitigating much in sky pre-kunark, and you will be getting smacked pretty hard, so agility will be king for tanks up there.

[Evilmog]

I played a warrior on live from Velious to The Buried Sea, but didn't hit the raiding scene until PoP.

And yes, it was always an AC vs. HP battle among tank classes (Usually the AC battle fought by SKs, mostly cause it was useless for them to use shields come OoW with the 2.0s)

But it's really all a personal preference. I played the HP game. But with disc timers and stuff, depending on the fights, when my Def. was going to drop I was always ready to switch up my weapons and toss in a shield for the extra AC (Go go bandiler lol), Tallon Zek in time is a good example of such an occasion.

And honestly, if your worry about threat (Which is a huge issue with warriors currently) max out stam, toss the rest in Dex to up your proc chance and twink your toon up with 2 shards :D

[Estu]

I'm a paladin, though, Evilmog (but thanks for the info)