World War: Norrath

[Rjones61]

If all the races of Norrath were at war which race, based on current world influence and city power, would emerge the victor?

My vote is for the Erudites. They have an entire continent to themselves. So not only is their land defensible, so is their city. They could sustain themselves easily while under seige, by turning off their teleporters, hurling magic, and letting the magicians provide supplies.

As a close contender, I would choose the humans. They have two powerful cities, and a large population throughout Norrath.

EDIT: Try to avoid making arguments based on likely "alliances". This is an all vs all scenario. Although illogical, we cannot decide who would ally with who until we have a solid plot line for what has divided the Norrath races. Otherwise, we end up with another good guys vs bad guys scenario.

Imagine every race simultaneously loathes each other and all dream of world domination. Maybe all of Norrath's leaders played a game of Monopoly.

[Clark]

Erudin be cool with turning teleporters on and off. I'd also think Cabilis/Freeport because they're so large. Kelethin for range attacks from above too :D

[Rjones61]

Erudin be cool with turning teleporters on and off. I'd also think Cabilis/Freeport because they're so large. Kelethin for range attacks from above too :D


I thought of Kelethin, but they are in the middle of a cluster of races. High elves would have to compete with the Wood elves for resources and high elf casters have a deadly weapon against a tree house: endless magical fire. Even if the Wood Elves win, they would have suffered huge losses.

Iksar are definitely a top contender.

[Quineloe]

I thought of Kelethin, but they are in the middle of a cluster of races. High elves would have to compete with the Wood elves for resources and high elf casters have a deadly weapon against a tree house: endless magical fire. Even if the Wood Elves win, they would have suffered huge losses.

Iksar are definitely a top contender.

Iksar lost their capital to a bunch of frogloks...

[Rjones61]

I thought Trolls lost their capitol to frogloks and Iksar were wiped nearly to extinction by dragons?

[Brut]

Iksar empire was wiped out by ravenous halflings due to Cabilis having a secret vendor who sells 10 different flavors of pies and muffins. They just rewrote history into "aaand then the dragons and frogloks and giants and slaves and those flying mouth guys all got together and gods sent diseases and whatnot and that tore the empire down and totally not some hairfoot midgets!".

Inkys probably cuz there's tons of em, they're mean spirited, and they got ogres/trolls/orcs working for them.

[Cecily]

Wood Elves have the best zombie plan.

http://i.imgur.com/bM7ZeLEl.jpg

[Rjones61]

Wood Elves have the best zombie plan.

http://i.imgur.com/bM7ZeLEl.jpg



I think Paineel has the best zombie plan. They'll probably train them to be guards.

[Sarkhan]

As much as I hate to say it, I do not think that Iksars have the strength to dominate all the other races in their current state.

Long ago I believe they would most definitely have won with their massive navy and powerful military that worried even the mightiest of dragons. The iksars had ingenuity and powerful magics that they used to create sarnaks and their Sokokar flying mounts. Unfortunately as Brut said it seems that they were too powerful to leave alone to dominate Norrath.

The elves have the militaristic outpost of Firiona Vie which shows that they definitely have the strength to quickly mobilize and establish new settlements and defensive battlements.

Still, I think the Erudites would be a very powerful contender and I might even put my money on it. They are a race that split from the humans in search of power and knowledge and I've always imagined that they have spies and informants throughout norrath to help gather that knowledge and fill their libraries with the strongest of lost magics. Their civil war showed how truly terrifying their power is. War where soldiers were not slain by single combat or a barrage of arrows that take out dozens of men but rather hundreds of warriors lost by whispered words engulfing battlefields in flame and carnage.

[Meiva]

Erudin be cool with turning teleporters on and off. I'd also think Cabilis/Freeport because they're so large. Kelethin for range attacks from above too :D

Kelethin burns down quite simply. It has been done before :)

[Sarkhan]

Kelethin would burn, but you'd have to burn the whole of Greater Faydark to do it.

All those druids at the rings all across Norrath, most of which look elven to me. They would control the druid rings and I guarantee the Feir'Dal would have the Treants on their side. To burn down the city in the trees you'd first have to enter Greater Faydark and get to their city. Unless you plan on burning down the entire forest at once, it could be difficult to accomplish.

EDIT: Just wanted to add that yes it has been done before but I believe that is why it would be difficult for it to happen again. Not to mention in this scenario we're assuming it is all out war with all the other cities of Norrath so they would call in all their allies for defense. They could hold out for a while I believe (and eventually burn) but they'd never be able to capture other cities because they'd have so much work just defending themselves.

[Meiva]

Kelethin would burn, but you'd have to burn the whole of Greater Faydark to do it.

All those druids at the rings all across Norrath, most of which look elven to me. They would control the druid rings and I guarantee the Feir'Dal would have the Treants on their side. To burn down the city in the trees you'd first have to enter Greater Faydark and get to their city. Unless you plan on burning down the entire forest at once, it could be difficult to accomplish.

Yea except that it has been done before :P I believe it was the Orcs partnered with the Dark Elves. They burned down the majority of GFay, and they could do it again. Its somewhere in EQ lore and an official EQ book.

[Sarkhan]

Hah you were too quick to beat me to the edit of my post :-P

No doubt it would happen, but I think it'd be a bit more difficult this time around and with all other races also defending their cities from their neighbors it could take longer than people think... The first cities that would start conquering would be the cities that defend their territory first and mobilize to go on offensive.

[Rjones61]

Hah you were too quick to beat me to the edit of my post :-P

No doubt it would happen, but I think it'd be a bit more difficult this time around and with all other races also defending their cities from their neighbors it could take longer than people think... The first cities that would start conquering would be the cities that defend their territory first and mobilize to go on offensive.

The key to Kelethin continuing to be a contender is either killing the high elves quickly, or keeping them under seige. The high elves have the proximity and the power to burn Greater Faydark. Both sound like an impossible task, considering high elf wizards can teleport out of any barricade.

[Sarkhan]

Still think my money would be on the Erudites if they could ally their good + evil together, otherwise they might just wipe each other out.

Iksars might last a good long time though because of where they are. Unfortunately the iksars don't have their navy anymore or their ability for aerial combat and would be on the defensive to survive. In time even the iksars would fall due to their current miserable state.

[Rjones61]

Hah you were too quick to beat me to the edit of my post :-P

No doubt it would happen, but I think it'd be a bit more difficult this time around and with all other races also defending their cities from their neighbors it could take longer than people think... The first cities that would start conquering would be the cities that defend their territory first and mobilize to go on offensive.

Consider this scenario:

The Wood Elves are forced out of Kelethin, but manage to teleport to Rathe Mountains. They would be within a very defensible terrain. They would be very vulnerable, but tricky to defeat.

[Rjones61]

Still think my money would be on the Erudites if they could ally their good + evil together, otherwise they might just wipe each other out.

Iksars might last a good long time though because of where they are. Unfortunately the iksars don't have their navy anymore or their ability for aerial combat and would be on the defensive to survive. In time even the iksars would fall due to their current miserable state.

My money was on the Erudites too. However, I think we should think of humans as a serious contender. If you think of guild masters as the most powerful among races, humans have almost every class of guild master. They have three cities, defeating the gnolls and orcs of highpass would be a simple task if they put their minds to it. Their sheer numbers and versatility would be very difficult to deal with.

The MASSIVE flaw for humans is that their sewer systems in Qeynos and Freeport are an easy infiltration system.

[Swish]

Freeport is srs business... if Neriak/Rivervale/Grobb/Oggok don't take them out, Freeport humans would take them out :p (perhaps with a lil help from Highkeep)

[Rjones61]

Freeport is srs business... if Neriak/Rivervale/Grobb/Oggok don't take them out, Freeport humans would take them out :p (perhaps with a lil help from Highkeep)

I would rule out Grobb and Oggok. In all out warfare, they would use no strategy, meet in an open battlefield and fight each other to the last.

[JPMorgan]

I really don't see how Kelethin would have the forces necessary to wipe out Felwith. Felwith's troop selection is much more viable as far as classes go. They would have them beat in everything from sustainability to fire power.

I think with that mentality you could also disregard Trolls, Ogres, Iksars and Barbarians. They might be physically robust, but they lack logistical staying power in terms of troop support and mobility.

[Brut]

We were taking influence as part of this, and generally trolls/ogres are in alliance with Dark Elves ("out of fear" says the guidebooks and whatnot methinks). Crushbone Orcs are holding the elves back and they're also in cahoots with Dark Elves.

For what it's worth, those 4 races were teaming up during the retake Grobb war events that happened on live. Rest of the races didn't really team up as much, but they didn't really have the incentive to do so since who cares if some amphebians hold Grobb or not. Still point is, methinks Dark Elves would use the fatties and orcs as their frontline then turn on them once the goodies are dealt with. And following Innoruuk's guidance they'd probably follow that up with starting to kill one another.

[Rjones61]

We were taking influence as part of this, and generally trolls/ogres are in alliance with Dark Elves ("out of fear" says the guidebooks and whatnot methinks). Crushbone Orcs are holding the elves back and they're also in cahoots with Dark Elves.

For what it's worth, those 4 races were teaming up during the retake Grobb war events that happened on live. Rest of the races didn't really team up as much, but they didn't really have the incentive to do so since who cares if some amphebians hold Grobb or not. Still point is, methinks Dark Elves would use the fatties and orcs as their frontline then turn on them once the goodies are dealt with. And following Innoruuk's guidance they'd probably follow that up with starting to kill one another.


I think the stipulation is more that of an all vs all war. It's illogical, but necessary for the discussion at hand. Otherwise, this just turns into an all the good guys vs all of the bad guys scenario. If you want to pick teams, you have to come up with a plot as to how the war started, and why it is so controversial that there are so many sides.

So in this way, Dark Elves are unable to utilize the fatties.

Edit: My best go at a controversial war plotline is a battle of religions.

[Sarkhan]

I think the main contenders would be the Erudites, Humans, High elves and Dark elves.

The Dark elves are everywhere and have a lot of influence and allies with monsters. They have the outpost on Kunark as well making them one of only three races already established on Kunark.

[Sarkhan]

I think if the dark elves conquer the fatties first and then controlling them as their pawns after the fatties were completely dominated.

Certain races like the wood elves I don't think would be able to be controlled for the purpose of battle after their defeat but the ogres and trolls I think would definitely be willing to continue fighting for the dark elves if the Teir'Dal were to dominate them.

[Archestratie]

Halas: No one would care to run threw Everfrost lol

That's for damn sure.

[Rjones61]

I think if the dark elves conquer the fatties first and then controlling them as their pawns after the fatties were completely dominated.

Certain races like the wood elves I don't think would be able to be controlled for the purpose of battle after their defeat but the ogres and trolls I think would definitely be willing to continue fighting for the dark elves if the Teir'Dal were to dominate them.

This is a good point. I think dark elves are the only race I don't really know much about. You'd have to fill me in on how they would defend their city. Seems like humans would be their biggest adversaries?

No mention of gnomes. General agreement that they are toast?

[Brut]

This is a good point. I think dark elves are the only race I don't really know much about. You'd have to fill me in on how they would defend their city. Seems like humans would be their biggest adversaries?

No mention of gnomes. General agreement that they are toast?
They are placed between two pieces of toast. /nod

Methinks inkies would aim straight overseas for the elves since there's general beef between them. Iirc Inny tortured some high elf queen&king and corrupted them into becoming the first Dark Elves?

[myriverse]

Erudin be cool with turning teleporters on and off. I'd also think Cabilis/Freeport because they're so large. Kelethin for range attacks from above too :D
Please. Kelethin is burning down in a few hours, max.

Ak'anon's Skynet robo horde will rule Faydwer, eventually.

[Stonecrush]

The Elves would strike a three way alliance.
The High elves and wood elves believe in Tunare. Their mother.

The third branch to this alliance would be the wood elves with the Halfings. The halfling druids pray to Karana, the rain maker. They'd 'bring the rain" to their Kelethin immune to fire attacks.

The Human race is highly divided. EFP and WFP would try to do the work without NFP (healers). Unless the city was laid siege too and all of the major players involved were hit equally this city will fall. Qeynos is in the same situation. Although, I'd say Erudin would be more likey to strike an alliance with Qeynos than Paineel. Qeynos is to far for FP to grant aide. They are on their own. All ports into these areas lead to contested grounds (Nro) being the only exception. They are also vulnerable at sea. Attacks can come around their waters through their catacombs. They will have a lot of difficulties deal with on stopping infultration.

The Eurdites. They have more defenses and their own lands but they have similar vulnerabilities as man. Divided between Erudin and Paineel. Erudin can be attacked from the sea.

The Dark Elves would run Antonica like a raging torrent.

The Iksars would hold Kunark pretty well. The OT and FV being outposts and starting points for attack.

More later.

[Kellek]

The dwarves would just collapse their entrance and live underground.

[Vlak]

I think Dark Elves would more likely take Freeport and block access to Antontica for Faydwer-dwelling good races rather than risk a direct attack on hostile, foreign soil. And if it's all vs all, then better to let the goodies (dwarves, elves, and gnomes) kill eachother with no way out then mop up afterwards than to give them any reason to band together.

For defense, Dark elves have their backs to the wall in a one-way-in-one-way-out cave. Defensible, but siege-vulnerable. That said: Mages can summon food/drink.

My bet: Kerrans. Isolated from the mainland, only adversaries are erudites (who would likely kill eachother off anyway) once Odus is taken, it's just a waiting game for them XD

[Rjones61]

The Elves would strike a three way alliance.
The High elves and wood elves believe in Tunare. Their mother.

The third branch to this alliance would be the wood elves with the Halfings. The halfling druids pray to Karana, the rain maker. They'd 'bring the rain" to their Kelethin immune to fire attacks.

The Human race is highly divided. EFP and WFP would try to do the work without NFP (healers). Unless the city was laid siege too and all of the major players involved were hit equally this city will fall. Qeynos is in the same situation. Although, I'd say Erudin would be more likey to strike an alliance with Qeynos than Paineel. Qeynos is to far for FP to grant aide. They are on their own. All ports into these areas lead to contested grounds (Nro) being the only exception. They are also vulnerable at sea. Attacks can come around their waters through their catacombs. They will have a lot of difficulties deal with on stopping infultration.

The Eurdites. They have more defenses and their own lands but they have similar vulnerabilities as man. Divided between Erudin and Paineel. Erudin can be attacked from the sea.

The Dark Elves would run Antonica like a raging torrent.

The Iksars would hold Kunark pretty well. The OT and FV being outposts and starting points for attack.

More later.

As I mentioned earlier, we should avoid "making alliances" without a solid plotline that divides a majority of Norrath's races

"I think the stipulation is more that of an all vs all war. It's illogical, but necessary for the discussion at hand. Otherwise, this just turns into an all the good guys vs all of the bad guys scenario. If you want to pick teams, you have to come up with a plot as to how the war started, and why it is so controversial that there are so many sides.

So in this way, Dark Elves are unable to utilize the fatties.

Edit: My best go at a controversial war plotline is a battle of religions."

[Rjones61]

Erudite's capability for dominance all depends on whether they are able to become united. My answer is yes, Erudite's are the smartest and most rational creatures on Norrath. They will realize that if Paineel and Erudin are united as Erudites, they will avoid certain doom.

I disagree with Erudites being in the same situation as man. Their city is far more defensible, they should logically be able to turn off their teleporters, and shut themselves in. Anyone stupid enough to port into Tox will find themselves sandwiched between powerful Erudite forces. Defense from sea is a lot more simple than from land. You have time to mobilize and corner your opponent. Also, Erudites have no important structure exposed to being bombarded from sea.

[Stonecrush]

Please. Kelethin is burning down in a few hours, max.

Ak'anon's Skynet robo horde will rule Faydwer, eventually.

Gnomes the closest race to splitting the atom. Their small city entrance gives them the time they need to develop atomic weapons. Then their wizards go from spire to spire bombing area's away from themselves.

End game all other races are glowing mutants.

[Vindor]

It all depends on witch side got the more epiced cleric :D

[thieros]

In the current EQ timeline, Frogloks came to power creating the Great city of Gukta. The same would hold true in the current state of affairs as Froglok factions hold down positions on multiple continents.

The froglok's hold a highly defensible stronghold of Guk (with a bit of inner warring with the undead). And over in Kunark, they have another highly defensible fort in Old Sebilis with fragments of troops scattered throughout Kunark. They are all powerful Warriors, Shamans, Clerics & Wizards. They have leaders and elders. They have powerful weapons, armor & accessories. They wield great spells such as Ice Comet & Envenomed Bolt.

My money's on Froglok's through the following maneuvers:

Kunark dominance through:

1) Call to arms to Swamp of No Hope & Old Sebilis armies (pull the goalie so to speak)

2) launch assault on West and East Cabilis War on two fronts and squeeze em out. Cabilis with it's multiple entrances (including Veksar port) would be a cinch.

3) With Iksar's erradicated, the knock out Firiona Vie and the Overthere Outpost with ease (I mean look at how defensible and well armed these are?!)

Antonica Domination Plan:

1) Squash inner turmoil with undead Frogloks (unless an alliance can be reached. basically surrender or die by fire)

2) Grobb would be easily overran by sheer numbers

3) Oggok would face the same fate as Grobb.

4) With these difficult armies squashed, you have now carved a foothold in Antonica. Time to import some army. Through carrier, establish communication with Kunark outposts. Have the Overtehere Outpost send reinforcements (remember, Frogloks procreate quickly!)

5) Combine forces at Oasis and begin the march on East Freeport (Objective #1 to lock down port to Butcherblock, an important part of launching the Faydwer assault)

6) Leave behind a small squadron to lock down EC tunnel to prevent being blindsided.

7) After tactically smashing the Humans of Freeport, they would storm westward decimating all opponents in its path. The biggest challenge being the Men of the North. Frogloks are not fans of cold and can weaken them! This would be a tough portion of the journey.

8) Once Antonica and Kunark are held down, the would take a med break and have some R&R before that launch the assault on Odus & Faydwer. But that's a story for another day...

[Nytch]

Kaladim and Ak'anon both have one small entrance and are underground making them easier to defend against Magic. It would be like trying to break the spartan 300 if you were trying to invade either of these cities. Imagine the tinkered booby traps the gnomes would lay within their city if anyone was ever able to penetrate the outer entrance... That being said I don't think either of them would be able to mount much of an offence.

Gnomes would have an easier time as they would have spell casters

Erudites would be a lot easier to conquer if you think about it from a lore perspective. Sure they could turn off their port pads and live off of loaves of black bread and water flasks their magicians summoned, but they would never do that because they feel they are a superior race to all others in the world and deserve more. It would only be a matter of time before they turned those pads back on and came out for some higher quality foods/wine and get steamrolled by anyone occupying their outer city.

I'm going with Gnomes, easy to defend home city and all the knowledge and classes (warriors, healers and caster) they would need to mount an attack on opposing cities.

[HethGnome]

Gnomes have one of the most defensible cities on the planet. You could say the same for Kaladim but they don't have the intelligence to get anything done offensively. Neriak is underground as well, but the dark elves wouldn't stand a chance once the Trolls and Ogres in their city revolted.

Top Gnome scientists would tinker up some WMDs and a clockwork army and commence laying waste to the tall infidels.

[lecompte]

There are a couple of key questions that need to be asked:

Do dwarves get the Key Master? Do halfings get Sirran? Do human's get all the Monk and Bard GMs? How about Ran Flamespinner? If it is race vs race, disregarding all other factors, and you considered barbarians and erudites not to be humans, humans would dominate. They control Highhold, Freeport, Qeynos (Not that Freeport and Qeynos would ever align in the game lore) and have the most level 61 GMs to their name. Sure, infiltrate through the sewer system... There are like 7-12 GMs in the freeport underground who I would NOT want to run in to.

Not sure what lives in the Qeynos sewers but... Stick a couple of monk GMs down there.

[Rjones61]

In the current EQ timeline, Frogloks came to power creating the Great city of Gukta. The same would hold true in the current state of affairs as Froglok factions hold down positions on multiple continents.

The froglok's hold a highly defensible stronghold of Guk (with a bit of inner warring with the undead). And over in Kunark, they have another highly defensible fort in Old Sebilis with fragments of troops scattered throughout Kunark. They are all powerful Warriors, Shamans, Clerics & Wizards. They have leaders and elders. They have powerful weapons, armor & accessories. They wield great spells such as Ice Comet & Envenomed Bolt.

My money's on Froglok's through the following maneuvers:

Kunark dominance through:

1) Call to arms to Swamp of No Hope & Old Sebilis armies (pull the goalie so to speak)

2) launch assault on West and East Cabilis War on two fronts and squeeze em out. Cabilis with it's multiple entrances (including Veksar port) would be a cinch.

3) With Iksar's erradicated, the knock out Firiona Vie and the Overthere Outpost with ease (I mean look at how defensible and well armed these are?!)

Antonica Domination Plan:

1) Squash inner turmoil with undead Frogloks (unless an alliance can be reached. basically surrender or die by fire)

2) Grobb would be easily overran by sheer numbers

3) Oggok would face the same fate as Grobb.

4) With these difficult armies squashed, you have now carved a foothold in Antonica. Time to import some army. Through carrier, establish communication with Kunark outposts. Have the Overtehere Outpost send reinforcements (remember, Frogloks procreate quickly!)

5) Combine forces at Oasis and begin the march on East Freeport (Objective #1 to lock down port to Butcherblock, an important part of launching the Faydwer assault)

6) Leave behind a small squadron to lock down EC tunnel to prevent being blindsided.

7) After tactically smashing the Humans of Freeport, they would storm westward decimating all opponents in its path. The biggest challenge being the Men of the North. Frogloks are not fans of cold and can weaken them! This would be a tough portion of the journey.

8) Once Antonica and Kunark are held down, the would take a med break and have some R&R before that launch the assault on Odus & Faydwer. But that's a story for another day...

This was very interesting. I especially liked the point of frogloks having a higher reproductive rate. You make a very good case for frogloks to be in the running. However, I think you are overestimating their influence on Kunark. The frogloks of Kunark are scattered and weak. The only formidable froglok would be Ulump Pujluk, but the multiple iksar guild masters would wipe the floor with him

[Rjones61]

There are a couple of key questions that need to be asked:

Do dwarves get the Key Master? Do halfings get Sirran? Do human's get all the Monk and Bard GMs? How about Ran Flamespinner? If it is race vs race, disregarding all other factors, and you considered barbarians and erudites not to be humans, humans would dominate. They control Highhold, Freeport, Qeynos (Not that Freeport and Qeynos would ever align in the game lore) and have the most level 61 GMs to their name. Sure, infiltrate through the sewer system... There are like 7-12 GMs in the freeport underground who I would NOT want to run in to.

Not sure what lives in the Qeynos sewers but... Stick a couple of monk GMs down there.

I think the character roles are more figurative than specific to the game. I would still consider the GMs to be the most powerful leaders under each race. But they probably aren't wipe out an entire army powerful. You should think of each race having their own armies, strategies, weaknesses, etc. It's not exactly the head to head slasher that is envisioned in videogames.

However, I am inclined to agree with you. Humans would by far have the largest and most versatile armies. It's just that their cities just aren't very defensible.

[grenravenlock]

Without some kind of limited alliances an all vs all situation would be impossible to actually predict. I will list a few reasons why. Not a single race have a large presence out of their cities that is truely an outpost for and by them. The most populated race is Man but it is broken up into four flavors which have lead them down different development paths. The only two that bare the label of Human are not exactly in the best of situations. Being largely neutral but being the most adaptable has lead to both qeynos and freeport to have a dark underbelly to match its bright surface.

In a direct war with no alliances the faydark would be in a constant state of war, Wood elves would be gone fast. Sucks to live in a tree fort when your enemy can just burn you out. Half Elves have even less of a chance. They have no sizable population and in an all v all situation numbers are power. Dwarves/high elves/gnomes would be more hard fought due to having easily defended cities but none have any direct advantage.

Kunark is sorta meh. The Iksars are exhausted from their own unending warfare and in this all v all situation there situation is likely to not change much till they decide to invade elsewhere. Which is not likely to happen.

Odus..... Sure from a player race perspective the erudites have it great. Till you realise it is broken into two cities that are literally good vs evil not to mention two different tribes of Kerans, a swarm of kobolds, and the broken skull pirates that frequent the area. The Erudites may live there but they do not control Odus by any measure.

Antonica.............. pure chaos.

Strongest group would have to be Qeynos based humans. Since they have probably the biggest population city plus villages in the plains of karana. But those are farm from being defensible. I am not sure where highkeep falls in this category. Is it an independent city or fall under freeport/qeynos. Considering its strategic value it literally would be the heart of all the conflicts on that continent and majorly effect invaders from other continents spreading their influence.

[pasi]

Iksar, and it's not even a contest.

The war is going to be mostly on Antonica and Faydwer. No one is going to give a fuck about Cabilis since the iksars aren't an immediate threat. Furthermore, what are the other races going to do? Take a giant army on a tiny raft to Kunark? Then have that army still have to travel through tons of zones where mob population is out of control due to the fact that no one goes there (Firionia, Swamp of No Hope, Warslik Woods, Lake of Ill Omen).

How about get a port? Oh wait, your army is going to have to run to Karnors or Howling Stones to get an evac to EJ. Better hope your inbred porters who never left the city know which way they want the wind to take em, otherwise you're gonna end up in the Ring of Scale's turf. If they do get it right, hope you enjoy undead gorillas and 50-foot bloodsucking mosquitos, motherfuckers.

You could try making port potions, but Grobb and Oggok are too poor for that and all the Barbarians are lost in the tunnels unable to see.

Seriously, fuck invading Kunark. Those assholes can have Norrath's Africa.

[Rjones61]

Without some kind of limited alliances an all vs all situation would be impossible to actually predict. I will list a few reasons why. Not a single race have a large presence out of their cities that is truely an outpost for and by them. The most populated race is Man but it is broken up into four flavors which have lead them down different development paths. The only two that bare the label of Human are not exactly in the best of situations. Being largely neutral but being the most adaptable has lead to both qeynos and freeport to have a dark underbelly to match its bright surface.

In a direct war with no alliances the faydark would be in a constant state of war, Wood elves would be gone fast. Sucks to live in a tree fort when your enemy can just burn you out. Half Elves have even less of a chance. They have no sizable population and in an all v all situation numbers are power. Dwarves/high elves/gnomes would be more hard fought due to having easily defended cities but none have any direct advantage.

Kunark is sorta meh. The Iksars are exhausted from their own unending warfare and in this all v all situation there situation is likely to not change much till they decide to invade elsewhere. Which is not likely to happen.

Odus..... Sure from a player race perspective the erudites have it great. Till you realise it is broken into two cities that are literally good vs evil not to mention two different tribes of Kerans, a swarm of kobolds, and the broken skull pirates that frequent the area. The Erudites may live there but they do not control Odus by any measure.

Antonica.............. pure chaos.

Strongest group would have to be Qeynos based humans. Since they have probably the biggest population city plus villages in the plains of karana. But those are farm from being defensible. I am not sure where highkeep falls in this category. Is it an independent city or fall under freeport/qeynos. Considering its strategic value it literally would be the heart of all the conflicts on that continent and majorly effect invaders from other continents spreading their influence.

What is the fun in debating something with a definitive answer? Of course it is impossible, but that is the delight in discussion. Make a choice and a case for your choice. Hell, anyone could choose their favorite race and make a case about them. This is just for fun.

[pasi]

The froglok's hold a highly defensible stronghold of Guk (with a bit of inner warring with the undead). And over in Kunark, they have another highly defensible fort in Old Sebilis with fragments of troops scattered throughout Kunark. They are all powerful Warriors, Shamans, Clerics & Wizards. They have leaders and elders. They have powerful weapons, armor & accessories. They wield great spells such as Ice Comet & Envenomed Bolt.


Guk frogloks and Sebilis frogloks are at war.

[justin2090]

Dwarves would own all.

They would send 300 dwarves into the hot gates (bb/gfay zoneline) where the elves numbers would count for nothing. Hold down the docks allowing none to enter by sea and eventually take over FV.

Once the elves resolve had been weakened they would take over gfay/lfay and form an alliance with the gnomes. Together the dwarves and gnomes would march toward OT and turn the evil outpost into the largest brewery ever made.

They would be able to control the market on any and all booze thus causing economic hardship for the lizards. With cabalis unable to pay its power bill they would pillage the lizard city turning its inhabitants into slaves. With slave labor they would build enough ships and forge enough weapons/armor to set foot upon human lands.

Then Velious came out and they went and got epic loots. The end.

[Sylexis]

Not sure what lives in the Qeynos sewers but... Stick a couple of monk GMs down there.

Necromancers. The necromancers are in the sewers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everyone is going to leave Halas be since it's in the middle of nowhere and blocked by a hostile band of gnolls; at least until the impatient and hot headed barbarians come out looking for a fight. They're going to get stopped up with the gnolls for a few weeks to exterminate them completely and move on to the next closest inhabitants, the half elves of Surefal Glade. The half elves have no specific deity backing them, they aren't great in numbers and are mostly castoffs from the other races. The Barbarians will obliterate them and the remnants of what is left will evacuate into the wilderness of Jaggedpine forest.

The Barbarians, itching for a better fight than chasing stragglers into a forest would turn their attention to Qeynos. The siege will be ineffective in infiltrating the city due to the lack of siege weapons and planning ahead, however it will be enough to create a blockade and keep the humans from leaving the city. Impasse One.

At some point all communication coming from Odus would cease.

Like the Barbarians, the Dwarves, if they haven't decided to bury themselves under ground, will come out looking for a fight. They'll very likely skip Felwithe and Kelethin and hop straight on the boats to engage in a ship to shore battle with Freeport. They succeed in taking East Freeport but are pinned down by the narrow passages to West Freeport. Impasse Two.

Itsy Popkins, high tinkerer of the ankle-biters coalition and grandmaster explorer of the league of fashionable gnomes begins work on the Pagnamatic Ultra-Systasis Device. What it does yet, even she isn't sure.

Kelethin meanwhile is completely pinned down between the crushbone orcs and the high elves of Felwithe. Both the wood elves and high elves are too compassionate to obliterate eachother by nature, and the orcs aren't enough of a threat to risk loss of the city. Impasse Three.

Burnt Kerran remains are found washed up near the docks of south Qeynos.



(More to come... Need to get back to doing that thing called work).

[thieros]

Guk frogloks and Sebilis frogloks are at war.

was sticking to racial (not factional) war games. sticking to the all vs all format.

[Rjones61]

Necromancers. The necromancers are in the sewers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everyone is going to leave Halas be since it's in the middle of nowhere and blocked by a hostile band of gnolls; at least until the impatient and hot headed barbarians come out looking for a fight. They're going to get stopped up with the gnolls for a few weeks to exterminate them completely and move on to the next closest inhabitants, the half elves of Surefal Glade. The half elves have no specific deity backing them, they aren't great in numbers and are mostly castoffs from the other races. The Barbarians will obliterate them and the remnants of what is left will evacuate into the wilderness of Jaggedpine forest.

The Barbarians, itching for a better fight than chasing stragglers into a forest would turn their attention to Qeynos. The siege will be ineffective in infiltrating the city due to the lack of siege weapons and planning ahead, however it will be enough to create a blockade and keep the humans from leaving the city. Impasse One.

At some point all communication coming from Odus would cease.

Similar to the Barbarians the Dwarves, if they haven't decided to bury themselves under ground, will come out looking for a fight. They'll very likely skip Felwithe and Kelethin and hop straight on the boats to engage in a ship to shore battle with Freeport. They succeed in taking East Freeport but are pinned down by the narrow passages to West Freeport. Impasse Two.

Itsy Popkins, high tinkerer of the ankle-biters coalition and grandmaster explorer of the league of fashionable gnomes begins work on the Pagnamatic Ultra-Systasis Device. What it does yet, even she isn't sure.

Kelethin meanwhile is completely pinned down between the crushbone orcs and the high elves of Felwithe. Both the wood elves and high elves are too compassionate to obliterate eachother by nature, and the orcs aren't enough of a threat to risk loss of the city. Impasse Three.

Burnt Kerran remains are found washed up near the docks of south Qeynos.



(More to come... Need to get back to doing that thing called work).

Brilliant!

[HethGnome]

was sticking to racial (not factional) war games. sticking to the all vs all format.

Even if it's all vs all, that doesn't mean their isn't going to be internal conflict between factions.

[Sarkhan]

Which ever race discovers the existence of the Firepots. . . Imagine the possibilities.

[Rjones61]

Even if it's all vs all, that doesn't mean their isn't going to be internal conflict between factions.

This is very hypothetical. I think in order to optimize race abilities and simplify battles to say "human vs erudite" we are eliminating or minimizing internal conflicts. Like I have said before, an all out race war is already far fetched. There is no reason to try and reason different alliances unless we have a solid plot line to base it from.

[Lyrith]

This thread is very.... Interesting.

[lecompte]

I think the character roles are more figurative than specific to the game. I would still consider the GMs to be the most powerful leaders under each race. But they probably aren't wipe out an entire army powerful. You should think of each race having their own armies, strategies, weaknesses, etc. It's not exactly the head to head slasher that is envisioned in videogames.

However, I am inclined to agree with you. Humans would by far have the largest and most versatile armies. It's just that their cities just aren't very defensible.

If we consider the GMs as Generals or Heroes (in a classical sense, our proverbial Achilles, Odysseus, Alexander, Orpheus (bards capable of charming all within hearing), Rattenfänger von Hameln, etc... That is still a number far beyond anyone elses. The defensibility of your city is important if your city is under seige but I don't think the other races would have the opportunity.

If we work on the premise that Humans in an All v All war has (easily) more significant individuals armies in EITHER of their major concentrations of Qeynos and Freeport than any other individual city located in the area. I.E Qeynos may have trouble with Neriak cause of the number of Heroic Individuals + army size in defensible locations but Freeport would destroy them.

Can large armies be moved with teleports? or are they a finite resource? If large armies can be moved with teleports, priority targets are races with ports who are NOT under direct land pressure: Erudin, Rivervale, Neriak. In which case, the logical course is to immediately clense Erudin. The Faydader is all embroiled with gnomes, dwarves, woodies, High Elves going at it. They don't have time to port their armies out for risk of losing it all.
Here is how it begins, in an all out race v race genocidal war.

Year 1 of the Great War:
Qeynos cleanses Surefall Glade, and teleports En Masse to Toxx and begins the assault.
Highhold fortifies against the Halflings as that is the only (human) location they have any hope of taking with their relatively low numbers. Even with teleporting, they are very little threat. They could tip the Troll/Ogre war if they were inclined.
Freeport vs Neriak
Iksars are going to take a year to get to north.
Trolls vs Ogres
Halas marches on Qeynos.

[Rjones61]

If we consider the GMs as Generals or Heroes (in a classical sense, our proverbial Achilles, Odysseus, Alexander, Orpheus (bards capable of charming all within hearing), Rattenfänger von Hameln, etc... That is still a number far beyond anyone elses. The defensibility of your city is important if your city is under seige but I don't think the other races would have the opportunity.

If we work on the premise that Humans in an All v All war has (easily) more significant individuals armies in EITHER of their major concentrations of Qeynos and Freeport than any other individual city located in the area. I.E Qeynos may have trouble with Neriak cause of the number of Heroic Individuals + army size in defensible locations but Freeport would destroy them.

Can large armies be moved with teleports? or are they a finite resource? If large armies can be moved with teleports, priority targets are races with ports who are NOT under direct land pressure: Erudin, Rivervale, Neriak. In which case, the logical course is to immediately clense Erudin. The Faydader is all embroiled with gnomes, dwarves, woodies, High Elves going at it. They don't have time to port their armies out for risk of losing it all.
Here is how it begins, in an all out race v race genocidal war.

Year 1 of the Geart War:
Qeynos cleanses Surefall Glade, and teleports En Masse to Toxx and begins the assault.
Highhold fortifies against the Halflings as that is the only (human) location they have any hope of taking with their relatively low numbers. Even with teleporting, they are very little threat. They could tip the Troll/Ogre war if they were inclined.
Freeport vs Neriak
Iksars are going to take a year to get to north.
Trolls vs Ogres
Halas marches on Qeynos.

That's the spirit!

[deezy]

Someone should simulate this in Civ or something.

[Voland]

Not sure what lives in the Qeynos sewers but... Stick a couple of monk GMs down there.

Bloodsabers are there! Human SKs/Necros/etc. If Bloodsabers are on the same side as Qeynosians above ground, you are not inflitrating thru the sewers.

[Voland]

I noticed that many posts are focused on defense. I would normally say that
offense is more important if we are talking about world domination:
presence in multiple zones, advanced fortresses etc.

However, if it's "any race for itself", I guess we have to think
both offense and defense - no point in taking over enemies cities
if your own is burned to the ground.

Suppose someone destroys all the portals/druid rings?
This would take teleports out of the question and it would
be more about geography: how far can you get on foot?
Which areas are hard to pass thru due to terrain/natural predators?
Who has the best fleet?

Even if portals/ring remain, they could be occupied, so any druid/wizard
porting in is killed on sight.

[Voland]

Necromancers. The necromancers are in the sewers.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Everyone is going to leave Halas be since it's in the middle of nowhere...


Awesome story, please write more!
I especially liked the gnome part :)

[Ganjar]

Gno,es no question, they went to the freaking moon. who owns the world now?the people who own the technology. how is this even a question, of course its norms. Don't you guys have anything better to post with your time besides questions with obvious answers?technology is God

[Voland]

What about classes that are some specific to some races?
I think Rangers would be indispensable since they can
see enemy coming from afar by Tracking.

This would be a point for humans since they can be any class
(although you can argue that they are not as good at some
of them - for example their warriors are weaker than ogres
and their int casters are less smart than high/dark elves).

[Voland]

Gno,es no question, they went to the freaking moon. who owns the world now?the people who own the technology. how is this even a question, of course its norms. Don't you guys have anything better to post with your time besides questions with obvious answers?technology is God

I know we are supposed to work with existing timeline, but if you believe that EQ2 story is continuation of EQ1, you will see that tech backfired on gnomes when clockworks took over Ak'Anon.

[Ganjar]

well s*** , if it's good enough to go Skynet, then its good enough to win the war

[Loke]

Humans, easily. FP + Qeynos + outposts such as HHK throughout the world gives them a huge logistical advantage. Just those three make them the only race with an establish supply route that spans all 3 islands on the old world. Major ports on east and west coasts. Every class but shaman. Both cities are designed as defensive positions with large walls and gates to control entrance. Sewers are really the only weak point for humans, but I think their logistical and numerical advantages outweigh the sewer disadvantage.

Erudin's major flaw would be that their inner city would be the only safe spot. Main Erudin would be overrun because the initial teleporter only takes you to the top of that ledge - something a rope or ladder could replace. And their docks are exposed to the sea. So while they could turn off teleporters, they'd be cut off from 2/3 of their city to do it.

[Rjones61]

Humans, easily. FP + Qeynos + outposts such as HHK throughout the world gives them a huge logistical advantage. Just those three make them the only race with an establish supply route that spans all 3 islands on the old world. Major ports on east and west coasts. Every class but shaman. Both cities are designed as defensive positions with large walls and gates to control entrance. Sewers are really the only weak point for humans, but I think their logistical and numerical advantages outweigh the sewer disadvantage.

Erudin's major flaw would be that their inner city would be the only safe spot. Main Erudin would be overrun because the initial teleporter only takes you to the top of that ledge - something a rope or ladder could replace. And their docks are exposed to the sea. So while they could turn off teleporters, they'd be cut off from 2/3 of their city to do it.

The problem with humans is that they are likely to start with many foes. I agree they are the more powerful player, but they have some serious proximity issues.

Who are the Barbarians going to attack? Humans. Who will Erudites attack? Humans. Who will Dark Elves attack? Humans. What about halflings? Humans. And the gnolls? Humans.

Throw in the dwarves possibly hopping ship and attacking the humans, they are about to receive a huge bag of whoop ass.

[QuasiGnome]

Best thread EVER

Gnomes and their Clockwork army would hold down Faydwer, but Humans would eventually win. We'd zerg Norrath just like we did here on Earth lol

[Loke]

The problem with humans is that they are likely to start with many foes. I agree they are the more powerful player, but they have some serious proximity issues.

Who are the Barbarians going to attack? Humans. Who will Erudites attack? Humans. Who will Dark Elves attack? Humans. What about halflings? Humans. And the gnolls? Humans.

Throw in the dwarves possibly hopping ship and attacking the humans, they are about to receive a huge bag of whoop ass.

That is making some big assumptions I think, mainly that races will all attack humans and/or their nearest enemy, which I don't think are fair assumptions. Even if they abide by those assumptions, you'd have RV up against HHK. I think HHK is a much more defensible position. You'd have Neriak vs. FP, with the potential of dwarves coming from the sea, assuming humans didn't take the dwarvish port in BB, which I think strategically would be one of the first things they should do. Even if they don't, you've got OOT in between the two, which could play out like a WW2 pacific island campaign, which I think would favor humans over dwarves. Then you've got Halas and Erudin attacking Qeynos.

Even if all that were to happen, unless it were ridiculously coordinated, which would imply some sort of alliance between those races, I think the human control of logistical factors and potential for reinforcements from the other human cities (a la Rohan showing up to save Gondor, because humans are bosses like that) is still the driving force in a WW-norrath.

"Logistics win wars" -Every General Ever.

[Rjones61]

That is making some big assumptions I think, mainly that races will all attack humans and/or their nearest enemy, which I don't think are fair assumptions. Even if they abide by those assumptions, you'd have RV up against HHK. I think HHK is a much more defensible position. You'd have Neriak vs. FP, with the potential of dwarves coming from the sea, assuming humans didn't take the dwarvish port in BB, which I think strategically would be one of the first things they should do. Even if they don't, you've got OOT in between the two, which could play out like a WW2 pacific island campaign, which I think would favor humans over dwarves. Then you've got Halas and Erudin attacking Qeynos.

Even if all that were to happen, unless it were ridiculously coordinated, which would imply some sort of alliance between those races, I think the human control of logistical factors and potential for reinforcements from the other human cities (a la Rohan showing up to save Gondor, because humans are bosses like that) is still the driving force in a WW-norrath.

"Logistics win wars" -Every General Ever.

I am inclined to agree with you. I point out proximity attacks, because it is likely that humans will be seen as a huge threat near borders. Thus everyone striking humans is just a way to defend themselves. Except for the Barbarians. They are just attacking the closest thing race out of bloodlust.

The only race I think is iffy in this situation is halflings. They may just turn around and attack Neriak. However, if halflings attack highkeep, then the halflings will win in this situation. Sure, highkeep is more defensible. However, highkeep has a low population, has to deal with the gnoll/orc problem, AND has no guild masters to help them.

I am working on a draft as to how humans would win, even in this scenario, but I won't get to submit it for a while.

[myriverse]

The problem with humans is that they are likely to start with many foes. I agree they are the more powerful player, but they have some serious proximity issues.

Who are the Barbarians going to attack? Humans. Who will Erudites attack? Humans. Who will Dark Elves attack? Humans. What about halflings? Humans. And the gnolls? Humans.

Throw in the dwarves possibly hopping ship and attacking the humans, they are about to receive a huge bag of whoop ass.
Just because the game doesn't have zone lines to and from certain zones doesn't mean a thing. Halflings are bigger enemies with the Dark Elves and are in constant battle, even now, with them from the Thicket to Nektulos. It's just as likely (or more) that Neriak will fall to the combined forces of Halflings and Humans (not talking about alliances, just a war on two fronts).

[Sylexis]

Awesome story, please write more!
I especially liked the gnome part :)

I started to and then realized we'd need to understand why and how this war started, and where the races were at the time the proverbial ball dropped and how they got back into communication with their races... who's pinned down where, what leader got assassinated by a dark elf rogue from the overthere by way of using the firepots... yea so moving on.

I eventually settled on Captain Nalot in iceclad ocean being set on by an unusual squall out at sea and running aground mysteriously in the void where Zebuxoruk is captured of course. Had a fun little dialogue going between a salty sea dog and a time warped deity. Zeb offers immortality to one race and just one race alone, Nalot leaves and runs off to the gnomes, they kick him out and label him insane. He starts running amok telling everyone, something happens to give merit to his story and suddenly the world just kind of does this paradigm "Oh shit this is real, if we don't kill everyone else we're going to stay mortal, no before that, everyone else is trying to kill US because it will make THEM immortal. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, there can be only one! *queue highlander music*

Etc. etc. Damn you and your plot ideas, now I'm not getting any work done.

[Sarkhan]

Just tossing this back in there, but does anyone suspect that the High elves or dark elves possibly know about the Firepots? We thinking about Firepots at all?

High elves definitely have naval superiority in Timorous deep as well as being an old race with a large library and strong sense of superiority (high elves always were snobbish) might lead one to think they have some knowledge of Norrath that others don't.

Dark elves have their ties with monsters across Norrath and also the next closest outpost that they established in OT before any other (foreign) race and in secret without the high elves even knowing.

There is a lot to Norrath that we don't see in-game. An obvious example that kept me thinking High elves are a contender is the fact that when Kunark was re-discovered, they sailed fleets and established FV. They obviously didn't travel by a barrel barge from Oasis which means they most likely used the docks in BB. Looking at the cloth map of Norrath it looks like Felwithe is situated by the water so it wouldn't be such a stretch to say they could or have fashioned docks using the plentiful wood from GFay.

All those boats travelling from BB look to be of Elven afterall.


Oh oh oh, and even though I do not consider the frogloks much of a contender you have to keep in mind that the frogs on kunark have somehow travelled to Antonica at least once. A Froglok Outlander, anyone?

[Voland]

He starts running amok telling everyone, something happens to give merit to his story and suddenly the world just kind of does this paradigm "Oh shit this is real, if we don't kill everyone else we're going to stay mortal, no before that, everyone else is trying to kill US because it will make THEM immortal. Damned if you do and damned if you don't, there can be only one! *queue highlander music*


I like this premise! It explains why no races will be allies (although they could be temporarily, to betray each other later... and each race will know that betrayal is inevitable).

It also suggests that within same race the differences will have to be put aside:
good vs evil humans, erudites vs heretics.

[Sarkhan]

For background story I'd like to imagine something along the lines of Veeshan coming back to Norrath. The dieties are too pre-occupied with Veeshan to assist their mortal followers. Veeshan throws a spell across all of Norrath that turns all races against each other to let them kill each other off at which point the dragons (unaffected and reclusive) let all races descend into chaos and wait orders from their god, Veeshan.

Ultimately, Norrath races fight each other and Dragons wait to see if Veeshan survives the other gods before they do anything.

[Squire]

One way to find out! The Teams99 Server!

[Sylexis]

I like this premise! It explains why no races will be allies (although they could be temporarily, to betray each other later... and each race will know that betrayal is inevitable).

It also suggests that within same race the differences will have to be put aside:
good vs evil humans, erudites vs heretics.

Yes, it would both simultaneously destroy any allied races, and unite each race in spite of their creed. Odus would be a force to be reckoned with.

[lecompte]

The only race I think is iffy in this situation is halflings. They may just turn around and attack Neriak. However, if halflings attack highkeep, then the halflings will win in this situation. Sure, highkeep is more defensible. However, highkeep has a low population, has to deal with the gnoll/orc problem, AND has no guild masters to help them.

I am working on a draft as to how humans would win, even in this scenario, but I won't get to submit it for a while.

Ran Flamespinner. Level 61 warrior. Bane of KoS players, savior of friendlies. When in trouble, don't run to the guards, run to Ran!
And Stanos Herkanor and Anson McBale... All in HHP/HHK all level 60+ (stanos is 65!)

Dwarves can't attack Freeport safely and their nautical skills are non existent. The High Elves would be the owners of the Sea but they have to clear the Woodies AND the dwarves. No way.

[Rjones61]

Ran Flamespinner. Level 61 warrior. Bane of KoS players, savior of friendlies. When in trouble, don't run to the guards, run to Ran!
And Stanos Herkanor and Anson McBale... All in HHP/HHK all level 60+ (stanos is 65!)

Dwarves can't attack Freeport safely and their nautical skills are non existent. The High Elves would be the owners of the Sea but they have to clear the Woodies AND the dwarves. No way.

Hmm, good point. Didn't think of Stanos and Anson.

Here is what I think the High Elves can do: Cave in the dwarves and gnomes. This would be highly effective on the gnomes, especially if you pump smoke into their city. However, it would only be partially effective on the dwarves, who thrive underground. Either way, it would buy the high elves time to regroup and restrengthen.

[lecompte]

Hmm, good point. Didn't think of Stanos and Anson.

Here is what I think the High Elves can do: Cave in the dwarves and gnomes. This would be highly effective on the gnomes, especially if you pump smoke into their city. However, it would only be partially effective on the dwarves, who thrive underground. Either way, it would buy the high elves time to regroup and restrengthen.

Swell idea but gnomes have rebreathers and the HE still have to make it past the wood elves who are on their doorstep.

[Xanthias]

The first way I would look at this is defense of home first before expanding into other territories.

Barbarians - Think Russia during WWII, they can give up territory that is basically useless until their someone finally reaches Halas. They also only have one front to defend.

Dark Elves - One Front to defend, home city has one entrance that is easily defended, plus they have access to almost all classes.

Erudites - One front, but the problem is two factions that will try to eliminate each other before moving on.

Gnomes - One entrance, however like most of Faydwer it is going to be a mess between elves and dwarves plus you would have issues defending from MM and Crushbone

Dwarves - Kaladim is a death trap waiting to happen, they also control access to Antonica, but at the same time it opens a second front for them.

Elves - Kelethin is great for defense, but fire and trees bad. Felwithe is a castle that could hold out, but they have the same issue the Gnomes would, several armies could basically lock them within.

Halflings - Kithicor is a natural barrier for most attacks, however the close proximity to High Hold Keep, Neriak and Freeport makes them into an island.

Ogres and Trolls - Seriously if they had their intelligence from before the great wars with the Gods they'd be a threat, but right now they're cannon fodder.

Iksars - A continent to themselves lots of territory between them and the other races would allow for them to amass an army, the problem is getting their forces to where they could do the most good. Invade Oasis you put yourself between two parties. Invade Faydwer and you might be able to get a foothold, however you'll have to defend your back against Dwarves or Humans from Antonica.

Humans - breed like rats, spread out all over the place, Freeport would be inflames due to infighting. Qeynos would hold for a while but the Mongol/barbarian horde would eventually get down there to destroy it. The last bastion for humanity might just be HHK.

Conclusion:
Barbarians would probably control the western side of the map, humanity locked into HHK, the DE's would sweep down from Neriak to take Commons, Kith and Rivervale, plus working into Freeport the Oasis etc.
Innothule and Feerott is just a mess and probably where the Iksars would go upon landing in Oasis to set up a permanent base.
Faydwer would end up being holding actions between the High Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes as it would be almost impossible to get inside the cities.

It would be interesting and ugly at the same time.

[QuasiGnome]

Here is what I think the High Elves can do: Cave in the dwarves and gnomes. This would be highly effective on the gnomes, especially if you pump smoke into their city.

High Elves gassing the Gnomes. Seems out of character, but war is hell I guess lol

[Rjones61]

Swell idea but gnomes have rebreathers and the HE still have to make it past the wood elves who are on their doorstep.

I thought we had already established that Wood Elves would burn quickly.

[lecompte]

I thought we had already established that Wood Elves would burn quickly.

Just cause their cities burn (which is unlikely -- it is druids (rain much?) vs mages/wizards) doesn't mean they are out of it.

[Rjones61]

Well, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Kelethin burns easily. And even though the wood elves are in their natural environment, they will be very exposed to the rest of the races. Orcs, high elves, and dwarves in particular. They would hold up better than most in this situation, but won't pose much of a threat.

[lecompte]

Well, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I think Kelethin burns easily. And even though the wood elves are in their natural environment, they will be very exposed to the rest of the races. Orcs, high elves, and dwarves in particular. They would hold up better than most in this situation, but won't pose much of a threat.

I think we are probably gonna have to. As the forest focused class, they are going to be masters of guerrilla warfare. Never with army lines, with an extremely mutable homebase, always attacking supply lines and hitting marching armies in the butt then fading back into the trees as the armies turn to attack them

[Sylexis]

Conclusion:
Barbarians would probably control the western side of the map, humanity locked into HHK, the DE's would sweep down from Neriak to take Commons, Kith and Rivervale, plus working into Freeport the Oasis etc.
Innothule and Feerott is just a mess and probably where the Iksars would go upon landing in Oasis to set up a permanent base.
Faydwer would end up being holding actions between the High Elves, Dwarves and Gnomes as it would be almost impossible to get inside the cities.

It would be interesting and ugly at the same time.

Good theory, I think eventually though any race without ressurection capabilities (I.e. clerics or necromancers) would eventually dwindle to nothingness.


I think we are probably gonna have to. As the forest focused class, they are going to be masters of guerrilla warframe. Never with army lines, with an extremely mutable homebase, always attacking supply lines and hitting marching armies in the butt then fading back into the trees as the armies turn to attack them

Highly effective approach against dwarves and high elves, problematic against gnomes who have a LOT of tricks up their sleeves themselves.

[evan1612]

I think we are probably gonna have to. As the forest focused class, they are going to be masters of guerrilla warfare. Never with army lines, with an extremely mutable homebase, always attacking supply lines and hitting marching armies in the butt then fading back into the trees as the armies turn to attack them

I feel like the dwarves would just come through and burn/chop down all the trees in gfay. Notice the sparseness of trees in bb?

also, this thread would have been cool as a poll.

[myriverse]

"Fading back into the trees..." HA! Good luck with that when there are no more trees.

And I really don't think rain is going to help much against all of the magical sources of fire (spells and elementals).

But that is a good point about the lack of city not counting Wood Elves out. They could probably survive indefinitely without a city.

[Sajan]

The Day Norrath Stood Still

http://zam.zamimg.com/images/3/b/3b365f9f9022d74911b6d4b86e20086a.png

Gnomes baby

[lecompte]

"Fading back into the trees..." HA! Good luck with that when there are no more trees.

And I really don't think rain is going to help much against all of the magical sources of fire (spells and elementals).

But that is a good point about the lack of city not counting Wood Elves out. They could probably survive indefinitely without a city.

Which High Elves and Gnomes have access to, dwarves do not. I don't think they would just be "defeated" though. They have a fairly sizeable outpost in TD, there are other zone(s?) in Faydader w/ lots of trees, Lesser Fay. They have druids to port them around. It would be foolishness with Elves with their low birthrate and lack of clerics to commit to any kind of stance or frontal assault and would instead be of the strike and run mentality.


Can druids forests? Maybe set up shop in South Karana.

[Ahldagor]

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Nerds.gif

[Voland]

Hmm I hope this pic didn't kill the thread.. we were doing so good!

[myriverse]

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Nerds.gif
Don't be a victim of self-hatred. It's the worst kind.

[thieros]

http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Nerds.gif

dudebro! you just posted on 15 year old elf simulator forum..

http://www.awesomelyluvvie.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Pot_Calling_the_Kettle_Black_T-Shirt.png

[Ahldagor]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VHTIE_CNxss/UBUpiUMY-MI/AAAAAAAAB8Q/teSZHq1lIdQ/s1600/samuel-l-jackson-stare.gif

[SwordNboard]

Iksar! Cabilis entrances are nice bottlenecks for defense. Master race, etc, etc.

[Rjones61]

Alright, sorry I've been gone. Finals week and all.

Here's how I think humans win.

They have three major points: Qeynos, Highkeep, and Freeport. To start, have Highkeep and Freeport go into defensive. Let Qeynos do all the work. Highkeep is on top of a mountain without anyone who should really bother them and Freeport has a massive army and will fair just fine defending its walls. Qeynos, however has two glaring problems: the Barbarians and the Erudites. Qeynos should go on offensive against Erudin immediately, and here is how. Teleport to Toxx forest and bring all druids, warriors, wizards, clerics, necromancers, magicians, shadow knights, and monks. Have the druids charm every animal in Toxx forest. Send all of the animals at Erudin's gates. The body count should be sufficiently high to create a slope into the city. All out attack, wipe out the caster softies. Regather the troops, and go to Paineel. I thought a little bit about whether Paineel would be tough to infiltrate. Buy come on, if the wizards can't blast their way through an elevator shaft, that is pretty sad. Destroy Paineel, destroy the druid rings and wizard spires, return home.

At this time back in Qeynos, Barbarians will have overtaken Surefall glade and will have Qeynos under seige. No need to worry though. We left Enchanters, Bards, and Rangers behind. Enchanters will be chain mezzing any attackers, rangers will snare and shoot arrows, bards will be giving crack, and paladins will heal. Walls will be doing what they do best and get in the way.

When the heroes return home, wipe out the Barbarian threat. Without a strong magic backing and a rezzing class, they will fall easily. Move to Karana and destroy the wizard spires and the druid rings. Karanas are now in possession and with highkeep, noone can attack from the North.

Freeport will begin an offensive strike against Feerott. Everything should be beaten and battered in Feerott. Now, noone can attack from Rathe Mountains. Take time to recover. Halflings will have been destroyed by Dark Elves one way or another. Send out a massive offensive strike against the Dark Elves. They are the only threat left on Antonica.

Antonica is taken. Keep careful watch on the East commons teleports. Humans now control all of these resources. Take time to recover and regather armies. Faydwer is in ashes. Destroy the decimated armies that remain.

Then fuck Kunark, because nobody wants Kunark anyway.

[Ahldagor]

Alright, sorry I've been gone. Finals week and all.

Here's how I think humans win.

They have three major points: Qeynos, Highkeep, and Freeport. To start, have Highkeep and Freeport go into defensive. Let Qeynos do all the work. Highkeep is on top of a mountain without anyone who should really bother them and Freeport has a massive army and will fair just fine defending its walls. Qeynos, however has two glaring problems: the Barbarians and the Erudites. Qeynos should go on offensive against Erudin immediately, and here is how. Teleport to Toxx forest and bring all druids, warriors, wizards, clerics, necromancers, magicians, shadow knights, and monks. Have the druids charm every animal in Toxx forest. Send all of the animals at Erudin's gates. The body count should be sufficiently high to create a slope into the city. All out attack, wipe out the caster softies. Regather the troops, and go to Paineel. I thought a little bit about whether Paineel would be tough to infiltrate. Buy come on, if the wizards can't blast their way through an elevator shaft, that is pretty sad. Destroy Paineel, destroy the druid rings and wizard spires, return home.

At this time back in Qeynos, Barbarians will have overtaken Surefall glade and will have Qeynos under seige. No need to worry though. We left Enchanters, Bards, and Rangers behind. Enchanters will be chain mezzing any attackers, rangers will snare and shoot arrows, bards will be giving crack, and paladins will heal. Walls will be doing what they do best and get in the way.

When the heroes return home, wipe out the Barbarian threat. Without a strong magic backing and a rezzing class, they will fall easily. Move to Karana and destroy the wizard spires and the druid rings. Karanas are now in possession and with highkeep, noone can attack from the North.

Freeport will begin an offensive strike against Feerott. Everything should be beaten and battered in Feerott. Now, noone can attack from Rathe Mountains. Take time to recover. Halflings will have been destroyed by Dark Elves one way or another. Send out a massive offensive strike against the Dark Elves. They are the only threat left on Antonica.

Antonica is taken. Keep careful watch on the East commons teleports. Humans now control all of these resources. Take time to recover and regather armies. Faydwer is in ashes. Destroy the decimated armies that remain.

Then fuck Kunark, because nobody wants Kunark anyway.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VHTIE_CNxss/UBUpiUMY-MI/AAAAAAAAB8Q/teSZHq1lIdQ/s1600/samuel-l-jackson-stare.gif

[Rjones61]

http://youtu.be/0la5DBtOVNI

[Ahldagor]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VHTIE_CNxss/UBUpiUMY-MI/AAAAAAAAB8Q/teSZHq1lIdQ/s1600/samuel-l-jackson-stare.gif