Bards - CHA and DEX

[Erica]

I have about 158ish CHA and 120ish DEX. Not great, but this is my first and only character.

My understanding is CHA makes mez and lull resist less often, and charm not break early as often. But mez can never break early for bards I believe. I haven't noticed a huge difference with CHA while charming either (though it might be hard to notice since it is a 3 tick duration max anyway). I also haven't really had the chance to use lull much. Mostly just mez.

DEX just makes you miss notes less often, but you don't miss notes that often if you just keep your instrument skills up.

Is there a confirmed formula with how these two stats actually help? Do they really help enough to take them over STA or HP? Or even STR so I can carry more copper? :P

[Faerie]

CHA doesn't have anything to do with mez resists. Very important for lull if you'll pulling, and the charm thing isn't a big deal regardless because even with 200 CHA your charm lasts like no time at all. I'm not even sure if CHA affects charm tbh.

Both CHA and DEX are considered in calculation of missed notes (if this server is like live).

EDIT: Oh uhm. Always go for STA/hp gear before DEX and CHA as a bard. Bard gear has lots of DEX and CHA and you'll get to where you need to be anyway.

[Erica]

I see, so CHA is useless beyond the point where missed notes are not an issue (unless you need to lull). And DEX is useless beyond the point your missed notes are not an issue, unless you want to proc a weapon more often?

[Faerie]

Useless is going kinda far imo...

I'm of the opinion that missed notes don't even matter at all, because unlike with casters they don't cost you mana or even time (bard fizzle is instant). CHA and DEX still comparably important for a bard, especially dex once you get epic. I say comparably because stats mean less for bards than other classes... STR, AGI, STA, INT... you're not gonna see much difference in what you're capable of imo.

Mez is dependent on your level in relation to enemy level, as well as enemy MR. Mez songs lower mr, and if you're having trouble mezzing something (but can get it mezzed at least once), you can use a wind instrument. Instrument does nothing for song except increase the amount MR is debuffed once it lands. This is good to know but good luck finding a situation where the extra mr debuff from your flute is necessary lol.

[Faerie]

Also please always keep in mind that swarm kiting utilizes charm. If you're not charming, you're not swarming and you shouldn't get swarming confused with AE kiting. There's like an epidemic of bard ignorance 'round these parts and it's painful for actual classic bards to witness.

[Erica]

I've seen your comments about it; I just call it kiting. But, really, word usage and meanings change over time. Don't get too upset about it :P

Thank you for the info!

[Conscript]

You dare use a synonym? ON THESE FORUMS?

Be gone you ignorant twerp!

[Conscript]

Agree. Both are pests

[Kekephee]

I disagree with Faerie. I don't know what class he/she plays, but my experience has been the higher my cha got, the better my mez resist rate was, the better my charm resist rate was, the less likely my charm would break early, all of the very intuitive things that you would just assume happen as your cha goes up.

I don't find cha useless at all. If anything, lately I've been questioning the usefulness of dex. I don't think I've had more than 3 or 4 missed notes in months and my dex has been steadily dropping as I've gotten more stupidly itemized planar gear that is mostly str and agi. I think instrument skill level (which is tantamount to level) has more to do with that than anything. Maybe when you're level 20 having 200 dex is more important than when you're 60. I'd concede that.


Keep in mind, when I say "my experience" I mean "it's seemed to me" and that's very subjective/could be incorrect. I have no numbers or data.


As far as "do missed notes matter," I mostly agree about them not really being too big a deal, but when you've got five mobs charging you that need to be mezzed asap, a missed note can make a difference. Timing is everything.

[Faerie]

My information is from serious research done by old school bards in old school EQ. Mostly from The Concert Hall. I tried to search for it, but the "Advanced search" button doesn't work on TCH anymore and basic searches seem to be limited to 20 results...

Maybe some other old bards could chime in with their research.

[Faerie]

Here's something (though there is no solid proof of anything):
http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/classes.html?class=4&mid=100543975354570

[Kekephee]

I'd love to get some real and definitely applicable to this server, rather than live, numbers from anyone who has them. Cause if cha and dex don't affect mezzes or charms, I made the wrong move looting the blazing gaunts off ragefire and giving the guild back the gauntlets of fiery might I was using...

[Faerie]

http://thedruidsgrove.org/archive/eq/t-2189.html

Some good info on druid/necro charm, and bard lull.

[Faerie]

Anyone know URL of old eqdiva forums? I never posted there because TCH was a better source of information, but my searches are telling me that the info I want was also posted on eqdiva.

Maybe can wayback and find...

[Faerie]

http://web.archive.org/web/20021016115341/http://eq.crgaming.com/viewarticle.asp?Article=4451

Is Charisma actually taken into account on mesmerizations and charms?

Yes it is. It varies on a number of spells to its actual usefulness but it does have a use. There are different levels of charisma for different classes. The system does take into account that an Enchanter should have a higher charisma than say a Necromancer. It’s unfair to expect masters of the undead to be entirely charismatic.

So here the EQ devs admit that cha works differently for different classes.

[Faerie]

Grr this is frustrating.

http://web.archive.org/web/20040203201449/http://eqdiva.com/Search/default.aspx

^Search function doesn't work :(

http://web.archive.org/web/20040213191400/http://pub142.ezboard.com/beqdivabardsofeverquest

^Doesn't work on the older eqdiva, either.

theconcerthall.yuku.com/reply/3140/Ways-to-prolong-Charm-duration

^TCH post on increasing bard charm duration.

http://theconcerthall.yuku.com/topic/3254/Fizzles-begone?page=1

^Long thread on missed notes and related stats.

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=90703&highlight=charisma

^Older P99 thread that doesn't give much (any) in the way of hard data.

Yeah, this is lame. I still say CHA comes after STA and HP (and resists for pvp or raid bards) on the usefulness scale, and I believe that if CHA is impacting mez resist rate here it's not classic. Can't seem to find the relevant information proving this, though. I really hope someone else comes in with good data to set things straight 'cause this is seriously bugging me.

[Faerie]

If anything, lately I've been questioning the usefulness of dex. I don't think I've had more than 3 or 4 missed notes in months and my dex has been steadily dropping as I've gotten more stupidly itemized planar gear that is mostly str and agi. I think instrument skill level (which is tantamount to level) has more to do with that than anything.

Lol btw I'm pretty sure instrument skill level means absolutely nothing. Like 1 point in each instrument skill is the same as 235 in each.

I posted a link to a loong thread on TCH about missed notes.

[Scikala]

Lol btw I'm pretty sure instrument skill level means absolutely nothing. Like 1 point in each instrument skill is the same as 235 in each.

I posted a link to a loong thread on TCH about missed notes.

If this is true I know way to many bards, myself included who AFK'd for hours on end to keep up anything we weren't using in kites. But from personal experience I dont believe it to be so. After kiting up to 46 and getting an invite to CoM, I missed notes about 15 times in a row on the mez because my wind skill wasn't leveled. Even when I did the AFK level on Invis song it took awhile to get it going.

Personally, as a class with no double attack and no real means of doing actual melee dmg...sort of in line with Faerie I go with HP/AC/Resist/Cha/Dex

I was always under the impression we got meh returns from Sta, so I never put it too high on my list.

[Kekephee]

If this is true I know way to many bards, myself included who AFK'd for hours on end to keep up anything we weren't using in kites. But from personal experience I dont believe it to be so. After kiting up to 46 and getting an invite to CoM, I missed notes about 15 times in a row on the mez because my wind skill wasn't leveled. Even when I did the AFK level on Invis song it took awhile to get it going.


Yeah. I'm hesitant to offer anecdotal evidence as solid proof of any game mechanics without numbers, but my experience was absolutely that when I would get new instrument skills (such as brass) higher-level songs using them would miss notes frequently, and as my skill leveled that frequency would go down. That's exactly how spell fizzles work, and I'd be absolutely amazed if this "instrument skill doesn't affect missed notes" theory turned out to be right. But, again, anecdotal evidence, no numbers, real possibility I'm talking out of my ass.

[Erica]

I seemed to miss notes way more often on wind type songs than I did on everything else, when my wind instrument skill was 150 less than the rest.

[Faerie]

If this is true I know way to many bards, myself included who AFK'd for hours on end to keep up anything we weren't using in kites. But from personal experience I dont believe it to be so. After kiting up to 46 and getting an invite to CoM, I missed notes about 15 times in a row on the mez because my wind skill wasn't leveled. Even when I did the AFK level on Invis song it took awhile to get it going.

Personally, as a class with no double attack and no real means of doing actual melee dmg...sort of in line with Faerie I go with HP/AC/Resist/Cha/Dex

I was always under the impression we got meh returns from Sta, so I never put it too high on my list.

I did the same thing on live and woke up to find myself pvp dead a couple times :P

But a bard friend I made on SZ swore up and down that instrument skills didn't do anything beyond 1 point. We did some (admittedly limited) testing and logged ourselves each doing x number of casts of Cantata of Replenishment; me with my maxed skills and him with his skills that were never purposefully increased. The results were enough to convince me that he was right. This was live though, and like PoP era or a bit later maybe.

The way bard songs were impacted in strange ways every other patch on live leads me to believe that much of this isn't as simple as we'd hope. Honestly I'm really impressed that the P99 staff got the bard class working so well here, but I'm willing to bet that much of the bard mechanics here are not classic.

To be clear, I don't play a bard here. I was a somewhat geeky numbers bard on live. Do your own research for P99 imo :)

BTW I found old EZboard TCH:

http://pub5.ezboard.com/btheconcerthall.html

EDIT: It probably wasn't Cantata of Replenishment, but the PoP level one. Whatever that was called.

[Scikala]

I seemed to miss notes way more often on wind type songs than I did on everything else, when my wind instrument skill was 150 less than the rest.

This, 100%

@Kek - This is why I said it after Faerie, saying if its true it doesnt effect anything I wasted my time.

Until we see proof in either column, all I can really say is I've had stuff just plain not work because of constant missed notes when my skill was down.

Bards are an odd class, and were broken on live constantly. I remember the running joke with every patch was that they did something to break bards.

I was Sk -> Beastlord on live, so all my bard experience is P99 based...so it's jumbled info from others and personal experience.

[Faerie]

BTW for stats I would go:

HP/MR > STA/AC > DEX/CHA/other resists > STR/AGI > waaaaay down here INT

Or sometimes other resists would be higher.

[Scikala]

BTW for stats I would go:

HP/MR > STA/AC > DEX/CHA/other resists > STR/AGI > waaaaay down here INT

Or sometimes other resists would be higher.

More or less agree with this, but given the oddity that is bards - get whatever keeps you alive/makes you useful.

[nothsa]

Also one little point with a mixture of gear a bard can get minus 84 cha, which is good for pulling from out of LOS with failed lulls. rare to use but worth considering having a anti cha set too

[Man0warr]

If Bard songs work the same as enchanter spells, CHA doesn't affect mez resist or duration - it's all level and MR based.

CHA affects lull hugely though (mostly chance of critical resist), and is the 3rd check for charm after level gap and MR. It also seems to have really bad returns after 200 CHA.

[Faerie]

I was given temporary access to a couple bards (thanks guys!) and plan to test a bunch of things. Just been super busy with RL stuff.

Will get back to you guys :)

[Jauna]

Yeah I made the change recently from CHA/DEX to HP/AC/Sta.
-Didnt notice a huge difference in singing.
-Didnt notice a huge difference in mezzing.
-I will however say that I notice more Crit Lull failures (mobs attack on lull resistance) and since our charm was always random as fuck being it only lasts 18 seconds or so i cant say anything about it. was better off mezzing.
And going from 1150hp~/650ac~ to 1700hp~/900ac~ is really.. really fucking noticeable. Even tanked for a few hours in Karnors with Largo's Absonant Binding. To all you aspiring bards out there, go human and slap everything into Sta

[dhoushi]

I have been playing str/dex/cha glass cannon style bard in low level grouping. My initial reaction so far is dex is only marginally helpful on reducing missed note, and I may end up dropping some of my heavy dex items (cloak of shadows) in the future because I just don't feel its very effective. Charisma and to a lesser extent strength just feel to be more useful to a grouping bard then dex.

[astuce999]

High level bards should carry 3 sets of gear.

Charisma gear for pulling / CC'ing.

HP/AC gear for tanking.

Resist gear for raids.

Why settle on one?

Astuce

[zanderklocke]

High level bards should carry 3 sets of gear.

Charisma gear for pulling / CC'ing.

HP/AC gear for tanking.

Resist gear for raids.

Why settle on one?

Astuce

This exactly. I have 7 tink bags of gear on Zanderr.

[Kekephee]

My bags are too full of foraged food, I don't have room for resist gear or tanking gear