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View Full Version : WoW copyright judgment - Problem for P99?


Lich
08-17-2010, 01:18 PM
Here (http://thresq.hollywoodreporter.com/2010/08/world-of-warcraft-89-million-dollar-decision.html) is the story. I hope P99 is safe.

guineapig
08-17-2010, 01:21 PM
Here's the key phrase:

The defendant in the case, Scapegaming, earned about $3 million in profits collecting micropayments from users on the unauthorized network.

They would have to prove that the person/people who own/run this server are making a profit off of it.

Cogwell
08-17-2010, 01:41 PM
gpig beat me to it.

If you draw a picture of spiderman at home, you're not doing anything wrong.

If you sell that picture, you are.

eqdruid76
08-17-2010, 02:09 PM
Supoose I draw a pitture of Spiderman having anal intercourse with Optimus Prime. Is it wrong, then?

Messianic
08-17-2010, 02:10 PM
Supoose I draw a pitture of Spiderman having anal intercourse with Optimus Prime. Is it wrong, then?

On many levels.

Straif
08-17-2010, 02:13 PM
Supoose I draw a pitture of Spiderman having anal intercourse with Optimus Prime. Is it wrong, then?

Rule 34.

Also, adding to the fact that no cash transactions are made here. Look at EQ's popularity these days. I don't think Sony would even waste the time to think about litigation let alone the money.

Rogean
08-17-2010, 02:20 PM
Supoose I draw a pitture of Spiderman having anal intercourse with Optimus Prime. Is it wrong, then?

If I was home right now I would screenshot the clip from Seth Macfarlanes Cavalcade of Cartoon Comedy with Optimus Prime and post it. Anyone who's seen it knows what I'm talking about.

Straif
08-17-2010, 02:23 PM
If I was home right now I would screenshot the clip from Seth Macfarlanes Cavalcade of Cartoon Comedy with Optimus Prime and post it. Anyone who's seen it knows what I'm talking about.

NSFW.. Just in case...
Bam (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBKRRcWXs5Y)

guineapig
08-17-2010, 02:28 PM
Neither is this... unless you have headphones:

http://www.youtube.com/user/DRSMOOV

Lots of great stuff, his impersonations of the various characters voices are amazing!

Itchybottom
08-17-2010, 04:01 PM
gpig beat me to it.

If you draw a picture of spiderman at home, you're not doing anything wrong.

If you sell that picture, you are.

But if you write a story about Spiderman, and the original copyright holder for Spiderman decides to use your story ... there isn't a damned thing you can do about it. They can use your words verbatim and make money off of it.

Elissa
08-17-2010, 05:23 PM
Server emulators that use Blizzard’s IP facilitate piracy and offer unauthorized, inconsistent gaming experiences that can damage Blizzard’s reputation and goodwill with players.

That is actually the only relevant phrase in the article as to why they lost the case, which unfortunately does not really discuss the judge's reasoning (or specific causes of action) at all and is more or less Blizzard propaganda anyway (though it does contain a couple terms of art). These cases involving software/code/art can be very complicated and involve many different causes of action. Profiting off the unauthorized use of another's Intellectual Property is usually a negative factor against the defense of Fair Use, but is still only a single factor in a much broader case of numerous IP claims and is not necessarily, by itself, a losing battle (depending on the targeted or potential markets and the actual market effects of the infringement). I doubt that the profits were, by themselves, determinative in the decision of the case.

The bigger issues always surround the unauthorized use of the software, code, art, music, etc. and violations of the license agreement for the software, and all sorts of crap.

Nonetheless, stop worrying about P99! There are a lot of things going for us, not the least of which is that nobody who matters really cares that we exist, but also some decent legal arguments. That being said, don't assume that because we're not charged to play (or that anyone is profiting off this) that we're safe. We're safe because, quite simply, we're just not that big of a deal to SOE.

Elissa
08-17-2010, 05:27 PM
But if you write a story about Spiderman, and the original copyright holder for Spiderman decides to use your story ... there isn't a damned thing you can do about it. They can use your words verbatim and make money off of it.

That's not entirely true. Copyright holders certainly have derivative use rights, but if the story also contained your own creations that have nothing to do with Spiderman (i.e. detailed characters you created), they wouldn't be able to simply steal those, as you would have a common law copyright on those characters simply by virtue of putting pen to paper. Most story elements are known as "scenes a faire", and are not copyrightable. Thats why you can see numerous stories about "a superhero fighting crime in a big city" and no one infringes. It's the specifics (characters, etc.) that you can protect.

wizigig
08-17-2010, 10:25 PM
Rule 34.

Also, adding to the fact that no cash transactions are made here. Look at EQ's popularity these days. I don't think Sony would even waste the time to think about litigation let alone the money.

Never underestimate the corperate mind. Considure, Macintosh ( a division of Apple Corp.) sued Apple Corp. (it's parent company) for infringment of it's legal rights because Apple produced a device that had a Mac look in it's apperance. Apple used it's corperate lawyers and Mac hired outside lawyers.
Also considure Oracles lawsuit aganst apple for patent infringement for using open source code in the Android. http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/13/BU2C1ETPL8.DTL They also sued Google. In short if a Corp gets a bur in it's bonnet or sniffs the potentual for money, legal action isn't far behind.

mgellan
08-17-2010, 10:46 PM
Never underestimate the corperate mind. Considure, Macintosh ( a division of Apple Corp.) sued Apple Corp. (it's parent company) for infringment of it's legal rights because Apple produced a device that had a Mac look in it's apperance. Apple used it's corperate lawyers and Mac hired outside lawyers.

Uh, you'll have to provide a reference here before I'll buy this one, pal - this sounds like complete and utter B-S. There's no legal entity called Macintosh, it's a brand name of Apple...

Also, perhaps a spell checker would improve your apparent IQ?

Regards,
Mg

Rogean
08-17-2010, 11:23 PM
yea how the hell does a company sue its parent company... haha

jeffd
08-18-2010, 12:48 AM
Considure, Macintosh ( a division of Apple Corp.) sued Apple Corp. (it's parent company) for infringment of it's legal rights because Apple produced a device that had a Mac look in it's apperance. Apple used it's corperate lawyers and Mac hired outside lawyers.

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5192/1273620603159.png

wizigig
08-18-2010, 02:59 AM
Uh, you'll have to provide a reference here before I'll buy this one, pal - this sounds like complete and utter B-S. There's no legal entity called Macintosh, it's a brand name of Apple...

Also, perhaps a spell checker would improve your apparent IQ?

Regards,
Mg

Ah, a spell checker nut. Sometimes I leave the miss-spellings in just so you can feel good about grumbling over it. As for a link, here's a few. Actually I am going to say I stand corrected on this. The only referances I have found don't hold too much weight.
http://www.ahajokes.com/true053.html http://www.elsop.com/wrc/humor/app_sue.htm

But , just for the heck of it I did Google for companies that sued themselve. Found a few funny ones.

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/al-lewis-wells-fargo-bank-sues/

Zordana
08-18-2010, 03:09 AM
If I was home right now I would screenshot the clip from Seth Macfarlanes Cavalcade of Cartoon Comedy with Optimus Prime and post it. Anyone who's seen it knows what I'm talking about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBKRRcWXs5Y

Eternal-Elf
08-18-2010, 04:02 AM
I need a grilled-cheese sammich

yaaaflow
08-18-2010, 05:17 AM
Wait, they really made 3 million dollars running a WoW emu server? You've got to be kidding me

kenzar
08-18-2010, 05:43 AM
Supoose I draw a pitture of Spiderman having anal intercourse with Optimus Prime. Is it wrong, then?

Legally? no you havent done anything wrong...

Morally? im inclined to say: yes, you are one sick puppy

that being said. different strokes for different blokes.

i was always more of a starscream fan

Overcast
08-18-2010, 09:07 AM
yea how the hell does a company sue its parent company... haha

You forget - it's Apple.

Any company that DEMANDS you use AT&T with their phone isn't playing with a full deck!

to0p
08-18-2010, 09:20 AM
That person better leave the U.S. if they cant get the appeal to lower the amount they owe... Shit if you made $3M illegaly of a game WTF are u still doing on soil where they can take you to court? Buy an offshire oil rig and continue your servers via satellite connection in international waters like the gambling companies do ;)

You can owe $88M forever if you're not in the country for them to collect lol

Overcast
08-18-2010, 09:24 AM
Well, "Blizzard" is just another division of another mega-corporation now.

Kinda makes me lean towards Sony again, something I just thought I'd never do.

Taxi
08-18-2010, 11:28 AM
Although i think corporate greed is what is driving games down the shitter these days, the people running the server behaved like idiots. They took someone elses work, a mega-greedy corporation's work no less, and re-packaged it and tried to make money off it.

It would be a stupid move to try to do this even with a relatively small company. Im not rooting for blizzard, its more like wtf do you think was gonna happen. Im guessing they gambled that blizzard wouldnt bother, now they get to be the example.

As for p99, as explained, doing this to a private server crew that doesnt try to make money off the game would backfire badly IMO, the money wouldnt be worth the bad press they would be getting from it. Never underestimate corporate greed though, although i hope nothing bad happens to p99.

Edit: Im french and sometimes my fingers type faster than my brain thinks hah, so what i actually think is that they are not in it for the money, but as an example so other people dont get funny ideas about making money off some of their games. Money is always welcome, but IMO not the main reason why they are doing it.

Lazortag
08-18-2010, 11:33 AM
Well, "Blizzard" is just another division of another mega-corporation now.

Kinda makes me lean towards Sony again, something I just thought I'd never do.

Sony is just as bad in this respect. They sued someone for tens of thousands of dollars for downloading a song on the internet (If I find the story I'll post it, it's kind of old and not that uncommon anyway).

PhelanKA
08-18-2010, 12:10 PM
Now I wish Games Workshop would sue the pants off of Blizzard.

Overcast
08-18-2010, 12:11 PM
Sony is just as bad in this respect. They sued someone for tens of thousands of dollars for downloading a song on the internet (If I find the story I'll post it, it's kind of old and not that uncommon anyway).

Well, that's true... all the media companies are getting bad about it. Although I do understand the concept of getting paid for your works.

But part of the issue is that they want to make it look like it's money they would have otherwise got.

Just because I'm playing on P99 doesn't impact my desire to play on EQLive. I have an EQ2 sub, but I'm not too interested in EQLive as it stands now.

But I think I'll drop EQ2 and switch it over to Vanguard. It's really the only other MMO that interests me at all.

Seritaph
08-18-2010, 01:04 PM
Now I wish Games Workshop would sue the pants off of Blizzard.

By all rights they should, and the Tolkien estate should sue everybody.

rioisk
08-18-2010, 02:21 PM
IMO it's all bullcrap how the laws work for the intellectual property for any of this crap. Put all the makeup you want on it it all boils down to how well you twist the perception of others to make it appear to be original and your work.

guineapig
08-18-2010, 02:36 PM
Sony is just as bad in this respect. They sued someone for tens of thousands of dollars for downloading a song on the internet (If I find the story I'll post it, it's kind of old and not that uncommon anyway).

What ever happened to the punishment fitting the crime in this case? If the case was really about one specific song then how can the lawyer prove that all that money was necessary to cover the damages?

Lawsuits and settlement prices have always seemed so ridiculous to me. We're not talking doctor bills, lost wages here.... hell even emotional distress is more legit (albeit barely).

/derail end

Lazortag
08-18-2010, 03:00 PM
In that case Sony argued that because she left bittorrent open, lots of people downloaded the song from her, and so it's kinda like she distributed the song to all those people.

I think there's a thing called "mens rea" that the judge forgot about.

Not to mention the fact that it's just a fucking song.

wrxBRAH
08-18-2010, 03:18 PM
Although i think corporate greed is what is driving games down the shitter these days, the people running the server behaved like idiots. They took someone elses work, a mega-greedy corporation's work no less, and re-packaged it and tried to make money off it.

It would be a stupid move to try to do this even with a relatively small company. Im not rooting for blizzard, its more like wtf do you think was gonna happen. Im guessing they gambled that blizzard wouldnt bother, now they get to be the example.

As for p99, as explained, doing this to a private server crew that doesnt try to make money off the game would backfire badly IMO, the money wouldnt be worth the bad press they would be getting from it. Never underestimate corporate greed though, although i hope nothing bad happens to p99.

Edit: Im french and sometimes my fingers type faster than my brain thinks hah, so what i actually think is that they are not in it for the money, but as an example so other people dont get funny ideas about making money off some of their games. Money is always welcome, but IMO not the main reason why they are doing it.

Its the American way brah. Most of the new technology/games/products/music/movies/yada yada that comes out nowadays is just a remake of something before. How many guys write their own code from scratch? 0.000001% ?

eqdruid76
08-18-2010, 11:49 PM
By all rights they should, and the Tolkien estate should sue everybody.

Aye. Without Tolkein, we'd be playing Oz Online and World of Wonderland.

And no, there would be no Narnia. Sorry.

PhelanKA
08-19-2010, 12:13 AM
Aye. Without Tolkein, we'd be playing Oz Online and World of Wonderland.

And no, there would be no Narnia. Sorry.

Or "The Legend of Jack Chick"

/shudder

Supreme
08-19-2010, 10:19 AM
I think the private server was forcing people to pay to play.

Unlike EQ Emu that accepts willing donations for support.

fastboy21
08-19-2010, 10:40 AM
the key phrase is that blizzard took action. why they did is unimportant.

sony hasn't taken any action against p1999. if they did p1999 would be shut down also. it has nothing to do with the legal arguments of whether p1999 is actually in violation of copyright law or not. it has to do with the fact that sony can easily throw legal resources at p1999 and its creators that would be highly inhibitive.

Elissa
08-19-2010, 03:51 PM
the key phrase is that blizzard took action. why they did is unimportant.

sony hasn't taken any action against p1999. if they did p1999 would be shut down also. it has nothing to do with the legal arguments of whether p1999 is actually in violation of copyright law or not. it has to do with the fact that sony can easily throw legal resources at p1999 and its creators that would be highly inhibitive.

Sad, but probably true. I've said as much in other threads. The legal system is unfortunately flawed in this manner. Costs of participating, even when you have a valid legal argument/defense, are much too high.

Taxi
08-19-2010, 04:09 PM
the key phrase is that blizzard took action. why they did is unimportant.

sony hasn't taken any action against p1999. if they did p1999 would be shut down also. it has nothing to do with the legal arguments of whether p1999 is actually in violation of copyright law or not. it has to do with the fact that sony can easily throw legal resources at p1999 and its creators that would be highly inhibitive.

Its still nebulous to me to see if corporations will clamp down on servers like p99 who have no intentions of making money off a game beside donations. You can see the trend though, people who are older and are "hardcore" PC gamers probably have fond memories of the whole mod scene that grew with the release of doom. New maps, new weapons, and then completely new modes of play when games like Half-life came into being (Counter-strike, Natural selection).

Now companies like Bethesda, who used to sell games because their games were so moddable in the past, are trying to appropriate themselves this idea of independent fiddling with a game to extend shelf life way past what it would accomplish on its own. So now you got ridiculous things like bethesda selling horse saddles for 2$ for oblivion. Thats all the downloadable content trends that we are seeing now, where companies are nickle and diming players of content that they used to get in one big expansion every year or so. This trend has another incarnation in the form of MMOs who use micro-transactions as a payment model.

I think one of the reasons to clamp down on independent developpers like the ones here at p99s would be that it makes them look bad. Some of the unreal2004 maps were mind blowing, top notch stuff made by amateurs. One example of this is how starcraft 2 is run. Now if you make a map for SC2, by default the work is owned by Blizz. Theres a huge rant somewhere that i cant find right now on SC2 that splits opens this recent trend of companies like Blizz and Bethesda who used to be at the forefront of the modding scene who are now trying to cash in and push the independents who were responsible for it in the first place to the side. Im afraid this is whats coming for the Indy MMO mod scene as well.

I think the crux of the matter is that when the influence of the bean counters in big companies like Blizzard becomes too big, those companies who used to be at the forefront of the "For gamers by gamers" motto gets diluted and people like Kotick at activision runs companies into the ground. Its not all gloomy though because it leaves a vacuum for quality games that (hopefully) theres always a new batch of "garage" devs like ID software were back in the days ready to blow up the spot. To me these new studios are companies like Relic and Stardock. Unfortunatly i see MMOs taking the hard nose dive recent where no game that has come in the last 2 years has got me to play for more than a month (Fallen earth, Darkfall, Champions online demo). There are so much MMOs coming out, i really hope that these corporate fucks will lose a shit ton of money because they dont understand why people play games (fun) so that they get burned and leave the genre alone. Then when all the shit is filtered out what will remain is games that will stand out because of the passion behind the people making them.