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View Full Version : Post-Nerf Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer, nerf too harsh? - Data and parsing vs GFG


Evox650
04-15-2014, 04:28 PM
After saving for quite a while, I was able to finally buy a Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer for my shaman. The price dropped after the nerf, but I was hoping the weapon would still be decent post-nerf.
However, going from a Granite Face Grinder to a much more pricy Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer, and I was a bit surprised at how slow the soloing seemed to go. I wondered, was the nerf too harsh or am I just imagining it?
In order to figure out for sure, I did some parsing and gathered a bit of data of the average damage done using the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer vs the damage done using the Granite Face Grinder

Here are the results. I used the same buffs, the same equipment, and the same mobs to test this. I used no special software, just the help of a friend, a stopwatch, and a calculator. I'd encourage anyone to try it out for themselves if they're curious or skeptical.

Lv. 31 Shaman
Buffs Used: Rising Dexterity, Raging Strength, Grim Aura (from earring), Quickness, Regeneration, SoW
31% Haste (from items) + 30% (from spells) = 61% total haste
Stats (After buffs):
665 Attack, 183str, 131sta, 99agi, 118dex, 152wis, 93int, 76cha

Weapons:
Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer (22/43, Winter's Roar proc, +13wis, +13int)
Granite Face Grinder (29/36, +10str, +10wis, +10int)

The whole test was done on the 2nd floor of Unrest, with half of the mobs conning dark blue and about half conning light blue. The first thing I did was use the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer for 1 hour of total auto-attack time and I counted up the total number of procs in the hour. This means, I had a stopwatch and would start it when I started autoattacking, and stop it when the fight was over. I stopped once I reached one total hour of auto-attacking time. I did it this way to not include time for medding and buffing, etc.
The only debuff I used was Tagar's Insects (slow). Other than this, all fights were only auto-attacking.

In one hour of using Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer, at 118 dex, I got: 44 total procs, each for 245 damage. Calculated, this means that post-nerf, the hammer procs roughly once every 1 minute and 20 seconds of auto-attack time.
In practical terms, this means the proc would happen, on average only once, for only about 60% of the fights. Roughly 40% of the fights, the proc would not happen at all.

So, taking procs and auto-attack damage into account, I then figured out what the total damage per minute would be of the Barb Spiritist's Hammer, post-nerf. To do this, I parsed 10 minutes of total auto-attack time and added up all of the auto-attack hits. I then divided this by 10, and added the average damage from the procs to get average damage per minute.

Barb Spiritist's Hammer damage, 10 minutes, no procs: 4824
Proc damage only, 10 minutes average: 1797
Barb Spiritist's Hammer, average damage per minute: 662.1

I then did the same thing for the Granite Face Grinder, using the same buffs on the same mobs. I counted up total auto attack damage for 10 total minutes of auto-attacking time. The ratio is much better on the GFG, but would it be enough to outdamage the BSH with its procs?

GFG damage, 10 minutes: 8678
GFG, average damage per minute: 867.8

The results surprised me a little bit. Post-nerf, the Granite Face Grinder, a weapon that costs less than 1/2 as much as the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer, did 30% more damage on average, and just as importantly, it did it consistently. I did not have to rely on procs.

So, do I think the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer nerf was too harsh? Absolutely. Here's why:

1. The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer is a Cazic-Thule PoFear drop. The Granite Face Grinder is an Old Sebilis non-boss drop. The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer is much harder to get. It's supposed to be good, and should be better than a Granite Face Grinder.

2. The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer is often times much more expensive than the Granite Face Grinder, despite the Granite Face Grinder being a much more versatile item, class/race-wise. This is likely because it's a lot harder to get.

3. The BSH is Barbarian Shaman only. It's not like there were a bunch of Barbarian Shamans running around slaughtering everything effortlessly with this item. Shamans don't get double attack either, meaning their melee DPS will never be great, with or without the BSH. Additionally, this item was one of the only advantages Barbarian Shamans got as a race, other than slightly easier exp gain and less faction issues (ultimately unimportant at lv60). Trolls get regen and a snare necklace, Ogres get stun immunity, and Iksars get regen, forge, and AC.

4. The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer is now nearly useless for its price range compared to the alternatives. The Granite Face Grinder is all races, and usable by War, Shd, Pal, and Shm. The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer is extremely specific in its use, and is now worse damage than the Granite Face Grinder.

5. The Granite Face Grinder works well from an earlier level, and consistently. Since it does not have to rely on a proc (which begins at level 30), fights are less luck-based and more predictable, which is a very good thing. In many fights, the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer did not proc at all, and without the proc, the BSH is not a good weapon (22/43).

In order for the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer to be competitive to the damage of the Granite Face Grinder, the proc rate would have to be more than twice as frequent as it is now, and arguably, the Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer should be higher damage anyway, since it is a lot harder to get and Barbarian Shaman only.

Verdict:
If you're a Barbarian Shaman, don't waste your money. Buy a Granite Face Grinder, which is better, and less than half the price.
The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer did not need the nerf. For its price, specific class/race, and rarity, it was not overpowered pre-nerf, and to make the item balanced again, I really do think the item should be reverted to the pre-nerf proc rate.

I'd encourage others to try out their own experiments with the post-nerf BSH, if they are still curious.

Thulack
04-15-2014, 04:31 PM
It wasnt a balancing issue. It was a issue where no items should have a proc mod til later in the timeline. Simple as that.

Evox650
04-15-2014, 04:36 PM
It wasnt a balancing issue. It was a issue where no items should have a proc mod til later in the timeline. Simple as that.

I wasn't aware of that - is it something they have plans to revert later on? I kept reading everyone calling it a nerf, and so I assumed it was not a temporary change.

Erati
04-15-2014, 04:42 PM
what I would love to see is the list of all Classic- Kunark items that HAD a proc mod which now is set to zero.

Would be a fun list to read.

Evox650
04-15-2014, 04:44 PM
what I would love to see is the list of all Classic- Kunark items that HAD a proc mod which now is set to zero.

Would be a fun list to read.

I agree,
I think the BSH would be okay if it was maybe around 4k in price instead of 15k. But, as it stands right now, the GFG for 7-8k is a much better deal post-nerf.

pasi
04-15-2014, 04:53 PM
I wasn't aware of that - is it something they have plans to revert later on? I kept reading everyone calling it a nerf, and so I assumed it was not a temporary change.

Proc Mods don't get added until Luclin.

| 28849 | Cudgel of Cowardly Death | -50 | 0 |
| 28908 | Dark Mace of Thought | -20 | 0 |
| 28917 | Dagger of Thought | -20 | 0 |
| 22998 | Ethereal Destroyer | -15 | 0 |
| 8899 | Snowchipper | -10 | 255 |
| 8903 | Spiked Velium Mallet | -10 | 255 |
| 7906 | Pebble Crusher | 1 | 0 |
| 8430 | Bloody Stone Dagger | 2 | 255 |
| 52071 | Tarantella | 2 | 0 |
| 8495 | Claw of the Savage Spirit | 3 | 0 |
| 26566 | Ishinaear Xiall | 3 | 0 |
| 26585 | Acrylia Handled Broadsword | 3 | 0 |
| 7399 | Soulbane | 4 | 255 |
| 8095 | Partisan of Stampede | 4 | 0 |
| 8102 | Mithril Knuckles | 4 | 255 |
| 19810 | Fireclaw Talons | 5 | 255 |
| 26587 | The Sword of Ssraeshza | 5 | 0 |
| 8916 | Silver Blade of Thunder | 10 | 255 |
| 9264 | Fiercewind | 10 | 255 |
| 24587 | Ivory Hilted Cleaver | 10 | 0 |
| 22879 | Obsidian Scimitar of War | 25 | 0 |
| 26599 | Caen's Bo Staff of Fury | 25 | 0 |
| 22999 | Darkblade of the Warlord | 30 | 0 |
| 24780 | Greatstaff of the Four Winds | 30 | 0 |
| 24790 | Corpsegrinder | 30 | 255 |
| 26738 | Fiery Staff of Zha | 50 | 0 |
| 28855 | Bloodfrenzy | 55 | 0 |
| 7822 | Blasphemous Blade of the Exiled | 65 | 0 |
| 22946 | Kelp Hilted Mace | 70 | 0 |
| 3820 | Barbed Fishing Net | 100 | 0 |
| 21878 | Pile Driver | 100 | 255 |
| 24793 | Greatstaff of Power | 180 | 0 |
| 5800 | Hammer of Judgment | 250 | 0 |
| 15996 | Hammer of Divinity | 325 | 0 |
| 5798 | Hammer of Souls | 450 | 0 |
| 22898 | Withering Staff of Agony | 530 | 0 |
| 22907 | Furious Hammer of Zek | 530 | 0 |
| 29365 | Hammer of Damnation | 530 | 0 |

Are the only items that have the procmod extending into PoP.

Classic items that received a procmod happened way later when they revamped spells. We probably aren't going to get that far here.

Juevento
04-15-2014, 07:45 PM
I hope you sold your hammer before posting this :P

Ciel
04-15-2014, 08:05 PM
1. The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer is a Cazic-Thule PoFear drop. The Granite Face Grinder is an Old Sebilis non-boss drop. The Barbarian Spiritist's Hammer is much harder to get. It's supposed to be good, and should be better than a Granite Face Grinder.



While loot from a god *SHOULD* be 'godly', you're comparing items from two different eras of EQ. Sure, the GFG is only a 'group' drop, and BSH is a 'raid' drop, but the GFG is from further along the timeline than BSH. These days (Kunark), almost none of the weapons from Inno/Cazic are worth using by the time most people are able to acquire them

Evox650
04-15-2014, 08:10 PM
I hope you sold your hammer before posting this :P

I did several weeks ago, for a pretty low price. It's still a decent weapon in its own right, and might suit someone a bit better with higher dex.

And, that is a good point Ciel, definitely.

Glenzig
04-15-2014, 08:23 PM
While loot from a god *SHOULD* be 'godly', you're comparing items from two different eras of EQ. Sure, the GFG is only a 'group' drop, and BSH is a 'raid' drop, but the GFG is from further along the timeline than BSH. These days (Kunark), almost none of the weapons from Inno/Cazic are worth using by the time most people are able to acquire them

That might be true. Well, no, it is true. But I agree totally with the main point of the thread as I read it, that the price on the BSH is far too much compared to the actual better weapon choice, the GFG.