Raid question - helping other guilds.

[Morgander]

Simple question but no matter who I ask (including petitioning), nobody can answer the question.

If someone from a class C guild wanted to help a class R guild with a raid mob, can they?

If so, what's the limit? 1 person? 2 people?

And if not, what prevents someone from just swapping guild tags?

What if you have a character in both guilds?

[quido]

If I had to guess, I'd imagine that any legit class R raid force could opt to include anyone they please. Don't quote me though =P

[Cecily]

It would honestly depend on whichever faction decided to be highly offended by the assistance. Could they, yes. Would there be consequences.. maybe. If you're talking FFA, I won't assist any other guild simply because my guild still has a chance of getting the kill if the other guild in question wipes. Helping, unless ordered to, in this case would get me yelled at by my guild. If you're talking Class R mobs, assisting a Class R guild would blur the lines between C and R, could cause some drama, and (god help us) incite another Chest post. Staff might not appreciate that.

[YendorLootmonkey]

It was never specifically addressed by staff when asked:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1274140&postcount=36

The only guidance near what is being asked was posted here:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1272054&postcount=10

"As a 'heads-up' for all the Class R guilds out there, if two guilds engage and kill a Class R target, a lockout on that mob will apply to both guilds. If you don't want the lockout to apply to your guild, don't get someone on the hate list for that target while it's being killed by another guild."

So, to extrapolate based on what we know...

-

For Class C mobs, there are only two raid forces present willing to play in that arena, so you'd be either:

A) a person in a Class C guild directly helping your competition, so good luck with the ramifications of that, or

B) a person in a Class R guild helping a Class C guild.

In the case of B, I would like to think that 1-2 people in a Class R guild engaging a Class C target would not be viewed as an entire Class R guild engaging a Class C target, but I would assume due to the nature of people on this server, Class C guilds would fight long and hard to make the case that the Class R guild that provided assistance engaged a Class C mob and should then be considered a Class C guild. :P So I wouldn't risk getting your entire Class R guild switched to Class C just to help on a Class C mob.

-

For Class FFA mobs, based on the current revised raid rules, and along the lines of what Cecily stated, the ruling is that "guilds need to work this stuff out themselves", which means if Guild A receives help from Guild B and Guild C that was also competing for the FFA mob has a problem with this (i.e. they make the case that Guild A could not have killed the target without Guild B), they need to work it out with Guild A, and if no resolution can be determined, it could be petitionable. In which case the GM decision would be unfavorable for all (i.e. loot deleted most likely for such a petty petition). So I don't think any guild competing for a FFA target would want to risk outside help.

-

For Class R mobs, I would agree with Cecily... if Class R guilds can just call in Class C help anytime they wanted, there is no dis-incentive to flood the player-made rotation agreement with dozens of incapable guilds that just conveniently call upon Class C guilds (or other Class R guilds, in which case the Class R lockout would apply to both guilds from the quote above) for help. Your Class R guild can either make a reasonable attempt to take down the target or it can't, in which case it needs to defer to the next Class R guild up in the rotation or however the player made agreement works.

[radditsu]

It was never specifically addressed by staff when asked:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1274140&postcount=36

The only guidance near what is being asked was posted here:

http://www.project1999.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1272054&postcount=10

"As a 'heads-up' for all the Class R guilds out there, if two guilds engage and kill a Class R target, a lockout on that mob will apply to both guilds. If you don't want the lockout to apply to your guild, don't get someone on the hate list for that target while it's being killed by another guild."

So, to extrapolate based on what we know...

-

For Class C mobs, there are only two raid forces present willing to play in that arena, so you'd be either:

A) a person in a Class C guild directly helping your competition, so good luck with the ramifications of that, or

B) a person in a Class R guild helping a Class C guild.

In the case of B, I would like to think that 1-2 people in a Class R guild engaging a Class C target would not be viewed as an entire Class R guild engaging a Class C target, but I would assume due to the nature of people on this server, Class C guilds would fight long and hard to make the case that the Class R guild that provided assistance engaged a Class C mob and should then be considered a Class C guild. :P So I wouldn't risk getting your entire Class R guild switched to Class C just to help on a Class C mob.

-

For Class FFA mobs, based on the current revised raid rules, and along the lines of what Cecily stated, the ruling is that "guilds need to work this stuff out themselves", which means if Guild A receives help from Guild B and Guild C that was also competing for the FFA mob has a problem with this (i.e. they make the case that Guild A could not have killed the target without Guild B), they need to work it out with Guild A, and if no resolution can be determined, it could be petitionable. In which case the GM decision would be unfavorable for all (i.e. loot deleted most likely for such a petty petition). So I don't think any guild competing for a FFA target would want to risk outside help.

-

For Class R mobs, I would agree with Cecily... if Class R guilds can just call in Class C help anytime they wanted, there is no dis-incentive to flood the player-made rotation agreement with dozens of incapable guilds that just conveniently call upon Class C guilds (or other Class R guilds, in which case the Class R lockout would apply to both guilds from the quote above) for help. Your Class R guild can either make a reasonable attempt to take down the target or it can't, in which case it needs to defer to the next Class R guild up in the rotation or however the player made agreement works.



Jesus Christ.

[YendorLootmonkey]

Jesus Christ.

Just trying to answer the question, bro.

[radditsu]

Just trying to answer the question, bro.

What hath god wrought.

[zanderklocke]

I cannot post in the raid discussion section, but I think some sort of agreement should be set among class R guilds on what it means if one guild helps another with their kill. 4 A-Team members helped Indignation with their Faydedar kill last night; A-Team did not take any loot. However, some class R guilds have requested that A-Team go to the bottom of the list with Indignation in terms of the rotation.

Personally, I think that seems a bit strict that helping another guild could essentially hurt your own in class R, but it would probably be good for an agreement to be set among these types of issues. Can a class R guild help another class R guild for no loot and maintain their rotation spot, assuming they aren't one of the next two up due to the 2-week lock?

[Lune]

Some day I'm going to hire a lawyer and pay him to post on these forums on my behalf

[arsenalpow]

I cannot post in the raid discussion section, but I think some sort of agreement should be set among class R guilds on what it means if one guild helps another with their kill. 4 A-Team members helped Indignation with their Faydedar kill last night; A-Team did not take any loot. However, some class R guilds have requested that A-Team go to the bottom of the list with Indignation in terms of the rotation.

Personally, I think that seems a bit strict that helping another guild could essentially hurt your own in class R, but it would probably be good for an agreement to be set among these types of issues. Can a class R guild help another class R guild for no loot and maintain their rotation spot, assuming they aren't one of the next two up due to the 2-week lock?

it has nothing to do with class R requesting it, go look at the lockout sheet, A-Team and Indignation are on full lockout. You assist and you get locked out, period.

[YendorLootmonkey]

I cannot post in the raid discussion section, but I think some sort of agreement should be set among class R guilds on what it means if one guild helps another with their kill. 4 A-Team members helped Indignation with their Faydedar kill last night; A-Team did not take any loot. However, some class R guilds have requested that A-Team go to the bottom of the list with Indignation in terms of the rotation.

Personally, I think that seems a bit strict that helping another guild could essentially hurt your own in class R, but it would probably be good for an agreement to be set among these types of issues. Can a class R guild help another class R guild for no loot and maintain their rotation spot, assuming they aren't one of the next two up due to the 2-week lock?

There are certain reps from the Class R guilds that discuss the player-made agreement on an off-site forum... it wouldn't necessarily be posted here on Raid Discussion.

As an exaggerated example, if there are 4 Class R guilds that can kill Fay, and 35 Class R guilds are somehow on the Fay rotation, but they keep having to ask for help from the other guilds to kill Fay, there should be some consequences for that, should there not? Otherwise we're just needlessly thinning everything out for everyone and opening the rotation system up for exploitation by "alt guilds".

All a guild would be doing by continuously helping out other guilds is stringing out the rotation for everyone on it. So I would understand the the other Class R guilds might get a little concerned.

[zanderklocke]

it has nothing to do with class R requesting it, go look at the lockout sheet, A-Team and Indignation are on full lockout. You assist and you get locked out, period.

That's not what I'm asking. I understand we are locked out for the next 2 spawns. However, we would not have been up on the rotation for the next 2 Class R spawns regardless, based on the info I have received.

If we were slot 8 on the rotation for being up for Faydedar and helped a guild freely who was up, does that mean we go to the bottom of the rotation list? I'm not even sure what number is the bottom of the rotation list as I personally have no visibility into the rotation list. I essentially learn everything second-hand from A-Team officers.

Yendor posted above about an off-site forum, but as a class R guild member myself, I have no idea what's going on 90% of the time. I find out maybe a day before that we are up for mobs.

Is this off-site forums that only officers can post on viewable to non-officers in class R guilds?

[jaybone]

Pm the mystical virgins for answer.

[YendorLootmonkey]

If it makes you feel better, Z, I don't know what is going on 90% of the time either... I don't have visibility to anything either other than what's been told to me by the leadership in my guild. What you're asking needs to be addressed by your guild's raid reps to the player agreement.

[Morgander]

There are certain reps from the Class R guilds that discuss the player-made agreement on an off-site forum... it wouldn't necessarily be posted here on Raid Discussion.

As an exaggerated example, if there are 4 Class R guilds that can kill Fay, and 35 Class R guilds are somehow on the Fay rotation, but they keep having to ask for help from the other guilds to kill Fay, there should be some consequences for that, should there not? Otherwise we're just needlessly thinning everything out for everyone and opening the rotation system up for exploitation by "alt guilds".

All a guild would be doing by continuously helping out other guilds is stringing out the rotation for everyone on it. So I would understand the the other Class R guilds might get a little concerned.

I see your point but on the other hand, if we the community do not want this to happen, then we as the community should be saying no to helping other guilds.

Obviously if we're helping people then we're saying--full blown--that we accept this helping other guilds as fact.

Not all of us care as much about how many items we get apposed to how much fun everyone on the entire server is having. Plus, I have several level 60's and the like, so how is it different if my tagged class C character helps a class R guild apposed to my untagged class R? Or a class nothing character? I just don't see the differentiation.

There should NEVER be a case when this kind of discussion is so full of question. We have server GM's and this is their server, what are THE RULES?

IF we have to question these rules like this then there are no rules about this. If rules are not set in stone then how can we feel consequences for the actions of rules not set in stone?

I for one happen to have characters in two guilds and I want to be able to raid with my one guild when the other isn't raiding. I just don't see why this is or should be a problem. This is like telling me that I'm grouping with one group on Monday in Seb and grouping with another group on Tuesday in HS, and now because it's a different group on Tuesday, I'm locked out of HS for a week.

They do that in other mmo's like EQ II.

I just don't see such a huge differentiation between any of the content. Content is content, the only "value" it has is arbitrary to those who want it the most. Why can't I be considered in two guilds? Why do I have to be forced to have loyalty to only one guild? Why can't I have more than one friend or group of friends? What if both guilds accept this based on a predisposition of how much I raid with X guild apposed to Y?

I'm a citizen of the US but my loyalty to humanity goes beyond that. My first and foremost loyalty is to morality, dignity, and good-will. If my loyalty to my country is to be bent, it will and must be bent if my country attempts actions that goes against the scope of my feelings towards the human race.

The same should surely go for a game. And besides, it also shouldn't even have to get that far. EQ is important to me, but not as important as the moral justifications of real life.

So I ask again, what are the official rules? And if those rules are unjust, how can we make them as such?

[Khaleesi]

Isn't this simply a matter of ethics/morality or guild rules?

How is this staff's business? - especially since they want to take such a hands off approach to things now and let guilds sort issues out.

[Derubael]

The lockout system inherently forces some restrictions on guilds helping other guilds (cross or same class). That's because its hard coded in to make everything easier for everyone (auto updates to raid.php). Like Chest said, if too many people help another guild engage a target, they'll get locked out (and it will flag in our system if you kill that mob during your lockout).

My understanding is that if you have one or two people from another guild on the encounter list, it won't lock that guild out. I've never seen it tested, but I know Rogean wanted to allow a tiny bit of leeway in that regard for several reasons. That being said, if you get locked out, don't quote my post and claim I stated you wouldn't get locked out :D because I can't say for sure that it's working that way.

[Morgander]

The lockout system inherently forces some restrictions on guilds helping other guilds (cross or same class). That's because its hard coded in to make everything easier for everyone (auto updates to raid.php). Like Chest said, if too many people help another guild engage a target, they'll get locked out (and it will flag in our system if you kill that mob during your lockout).

My understanding is that if you have one or two people from another guild on the encounter list, it won't lock that guild out. I've never seen it tested, but I know Rogean wanted to allow a tiny bit of leeway in that regard for several reasons. That being said, if you get locked out, don't quote my post and claim I stated you wouldn't get locked out :D because I can't say for sure that it's working that way.

Would it be possible to get an official statement from Rogean on this lockout mechanic?

I would really like to know if I for example, as just one single person, can help out my friends if it's just me with a class C tag.

I'm not out to "help" the class R guilds who can't contest class R content, I just want to be there to help my friends who don't happen to be in a class C guild.

I just feel that if I cannot, that's a really unfair restriction. It just makes me sorta feel like I'm being forced to only play with a specific group of people, and if those people don't have the time, or the manpower to turn class C, then I'm told I can't have fun with them. That just seems kinda crappy to me.

I'm not out to make anything difficult. I'm not out to rule lawyer. I just want to be able to play and fight with my class C friends and my class R friends. Heck, even if my class R friends don't need my help, I'd still like to be able to be there with them on the character I choose to be with them on.

Hopefully this lockout thing and the rules as currently set do make it ok for just one or two people to help another guild without any negative repercussions. If Sirken or Rogean or anyone else can officially let me and anybody else in which this kind of thing is of interest know, that would be greatly appreciated.

[Khaleesi]

The lockout system inherently forces some restrictions on guilds helping other guilds (cross or same class). That's because its hard coded in to make everything easier for everyone (auto updates to raid.php).

Wait, wait, P99 devs can manipulate to that degree, and instead of doing so on aspects of the game that affect more than the just top 10% runny nose players, they do it to assist a raid scene full of synthetic rules that shouldn't exist in the first place?

And doesn't any sort of intervention, software or CSR, go against the new hands-off policy?

Christ, it's amazing this server ever got past it's first year.

[Swish]

So nobody really knows. I'd say there's an element of red creeping in here... people trying to get guilds raid banned for being helpful.

Be smart, if you're helping another guild out for 30 minutes, deguild and join them for the encounter. What's stopping you?

That way the young lawyers wont have much for screenshot evidence...and its the spirit of 1999 to help out.

[Cecily]

I enjoy raiding for the sake of raiding. It's unfortunate that the tone of this thread so far is implying that me personally assisting class R guilds with no ulterior motive is at best going to be frowned upon and at worst will penalize my guild.

Dun care. If any class R guild could use a 60 rogue during weeks that TMO is up to nothing, look me up.

[Cecily]

That means any of you, including BDA. You make me mad, Chest, but your guild is still good people.

[Morgander]

So nobody really knows. I'd say there's an element of red creeping in here... people trying to get guilds raid banned for being helpful.

Be smart, if you're helping another guild out for 30 minutes, deguild and join them for the encounter. What's stopping you?

That way the young lawyers wont have much for screenshot evidence...and its the spirit of 1999 to help out.

But I don't want to try to "bend" the system. What if entire guilds tried to do that with entire raid forces for specific purposes?

If no GM's plan on calling out the rule then as far as I'm concerned, there is no rule. I don't want to play that game, so let's make a rule.

From this day forward, barring that the guilds here in at least majority can accept this, then I offer the following proposition:

Any guild can assist any other guild with any mob, without repercussion or lockout (GM's will have to change the code a little bit), so long as the assisting guild is not assisting with more than two members.

Does that sound fair? This way, individuals who happen to be tagged can still help their friends regardless of where they're tagged, but entire guilds aren't directly helping one another without sharing lockouts and without abusing or manipulating the rules.

If there are no objections and if the GM's here can validate this ruling, then I would love to see it go official.

Thanks.

[Cecily]

If no GM's plan on calling out the rule then as far as I'm concerned, there is no rule. I don't want to play that game, so let's make a rule.

Let's not :(

[Morgander]

Let's not :(

You don't want to be able to help, Cecily? I'm confused.

I'm not talking about a rule that says only two people can help on things like epic fights or planer raids. I'm talking about big raid mobs. As I understand it right now, it's too shady to help other guilds with those kinds of mobs atm as far as I'm aware.

[Ella`Ella]

I don't see where this becomes an issue. If two Class-C guilds raid together, they are subject to a bag limit rule together. If Class-C raids with Class-R(otation), how is anyone else affected, as Class-R has a rotation in place?

I imagine that a Class-R guild, like Doljorn was could raid with a Class-C guild, but the members of Class-C couldn't be eligible for any loot. That was the case when Imba was main-tanking for Doljorn (to whatever extent that lasted).

[Valere]

I don't see where this becomes an issue. If two Class-C guilds raid together, they are subject to a bag limit rule together. If Class-C raids with Class-R(otation), how is anyone else affected, as Class-R has a rotation in place?

I imagine that a Class-R guild, like Doljorn was could raid with a Class-C guild, but the members of Class-C couldn't be eligible for any loot. That was the case when Imba was main-tanking for Doljorn (to whatever extent that lasted).

It would be nice to help blooming Class R guilds out with mobs they are having trouble with, but as a Class C member it's just too risky that some nerd will try to fraps/petition you to get you or your guild penalized because he's mad/sad/bad.

[Danth]

You know perfectly well what the issue is Ella. Some folks don't like seeing other guilds get help because they want those other guilds to fail so their own guild can swoop in and collect more loot.

The class system strikes me as incredibly poorly designed. Class R in particular seems doomed to eventually fail as population increases. Too many folks are trying for a piece of too small a pie. Those guilds are already eyeballing ways to preserve what small rate of kills they have and try to rule-lawyer each other out of raid kills.

Danth

[Morgander]

I don't see where this becomes an issue. If two Class-C guilds raid together, they are subject to a bag limit rule together. If Class-C raids with Class-R(otation), how is anyone else affected, as Class-R has a rotation in place?

I imagine that a Class-R guild, like Doljorn was could raid with a Class-C guild, but the members of Class-C couldn't be eligible for any loot. That was the case when Imba was main-tanking for Doljorn (to whatever extent that lasted).

I feel the same way, which is why I'm just making sure there are no like, loop-holes here that could be used in a negative way against people in class R who want to do some raiding with class C people.

[sulpher01]

Be smart, if you're helping another guild out for 30 minutes, deguild and join them for the encounter. What's stopping you?
Think this sums the whole thing up.. if your unsure, deguild and reguild later.

[lecompte]

Dun care. If any class R guild could use a 60 rogue during weeks that TMO is up to nothing, look me up.

That. Except not a rogue.

Course, I may have to guild remove to help :)

[Ella`Ella]

You know perfectly well what the issue is Ella.

Danth

I guess it sounds more to me like you're expecting the problem to come from within Class-R and not Class-C? Is that correct?

I don't think Class-C members would mind helping Class-R secure kills for nothing in return; I know if asked to help, I personally wouldn't mind - I wouldn't mind raid leading for those without experience either.

[Ella`Ella]

Think this sums the whole thing up.. if your unsure, deguild and reguild later.

That won't fly. GMs addressed this earlier about detagging/retagging. I don't know if it's posted here, but that argument was exhausted in the Great Raid Debates of 2014.

[Scikala]

Holy fuck are things way too complicated/political for a fifteen year old game.

[Ahldagor]

make one big guild with a triumvirate for leadership, and wah lah you have all guild issues solved.

[Cecily]

Too many folks are trying for a piece of too small a pie. Those guilds are already eyeballing ways to preserve what small rate of kills they have and try to rule-lawyer each other out of raid kills.

At least they have a slice now. And the eventual R-class infighting will be entertaining. Win win for everyone.

[Kekephee]

I think an important question to ask is, why is one guild helping another? If you have a guild that isn't capable of killing a mob, and so recruits help from a more capable guild, or if you have a guild that is capable of killing the mob and just for fun brings along someone who's in a different guild, those seem to me to be two very different things. I don't think that affects lockout at all, but imo it's a pretty important distinction to make.

One option- a capable guild helping a less capable guild- involves goodwill and, ultimately, the more capable guild giving up a chance at loot to help another guild out. No matter how you slice it- whether you look at it from the angle of, if <Not So Great> gets the loot from Master Yael, then <Super Stars> doesn't, so <Super Stars> has an incentive to not help and in choosing to do so chooses to give that loot up, or if you look at it from the angle of <Super Stars> are now locked out on that mob, they are giving something up. In this case, lockout makes perfect sense.

On the other hand, if there's one or two guys from <Super Stars> who have a buddy in <Not So Great> who needs an epic piece that his guild can't get him and choose to help the guild out, that seems to be something different. Personally, I think this is a bad idea- first of all, there are most definitely people in <Super Stars> who could have that epic piece themselves, as not a single guild on this server is 100% epic'd. Second, this sets a precedent that ultimately leads to, "hey <Super Stars> I'll pay you 100,000 platinum to let me loot Ragefire- which, if that's a good or bad thing is really a completely different conversation.

[Morgander]

My biggest question then right now is, if a class R member raids a rotation class C mob, does that class R guild get raid suspended for attacking a class C raid mob?

If not, then I suppose there's no issue here. I just really want to know so I can help my friends more without fear of getting my guild in trouble.

[BigHurb]

What hath god wrought.

i too was impressed by orlando bloom's dedication to everquest

[Erati]

My biggest question then right now is, if a class R member raids a rotation class C mob, does that class R guild get raid suspended for attacking a class C raid mob?

If not, then I suppose there's no issue here. I just really want to know so I can help my friends more without fear of getting my guild in trouble.


If there are enough R members raiding a C mob then the R guild becomes a C guild because of those selfish members :)

[Clark]

Just trying to answer the question, bro.

Tldr