Rogues

[harnold]

I am considering playing a rogue but before I start I'd like to know how boring it is from any current rogues. I am used to playing casters so I am afraid that I will be utterly bored to death with a rogue.

Is playing a rogue boring? There isnt much skill involved and in general doesnt require a brain. I am thinking it might be a class for heavy alcoholics, children, elderly, or disabled.

If any rogues can give a testimonial about why you have fun or dont have fun playing a rogue please do.

[Nubben]

If that's how you feel about the class, then why are you even considering it? It sounds like rogue isn't the class for you. This game is over 15 years old, and there are tons of guides and forum posts about the class. What are you expecting to hear in this thread that will magically change your mind? If you think the class looks fun, go ahead and roll one and see if it's for you. If you think the class looks boring and lacking, then don't.

[Ciroco]

Very low potential. Next thread please.

[mipstien]

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/29807/michael-jackson-popcorn-o.gif

[Supaskillz]

I have fun playing a rogue for a variety reasons.

1.I will start with my bias reason which is I played one live and mostly came to the server for nostalgia.
2. Gear matters. I think a big part of the enjoyment of the game is chasing that next upgrade, but for casters those upgrades are near meaningless outside of clickies and I find that boring.
3. You deal lots of dmg. I just find it fun bringing the beats.
4. You can be a good puller and also make monks and Sk's better pullers if you know what you are doing.
5 no button mashing, you can actually carry on a conversation in game while playing.
6. I like being able to explore with sneak.
7. Illusions! GTFO enchanters don't want to hear it.
8. Forced to group always. This is a negative for most people but I think more people would have more fun if they grouped all the time, but they can't resist the slightly faster xp they get soloing.

I am first to admit toolkit is limited compared to many classes, primarily just a dps specialist, but I still have lots of fun.

[Aviann]

Tbh, playing a rogue has been more fun than any of my characters previously, which is just about all of them, but I still see it being a personal preference over a monk. As a rogue, you really do have to worry at times about aggro, or you can be eaten alive, and keeping yourself positioned behind when against a wall can be just as hard as keeping the mob faced away from a group.

It is exciting to see the high numbers roll by as you backstab, and the quick melee you recieve with most weapons keeps you awake while waiting for those exciting numbers. Just like a decent nuke, and backstab shows noticeable hp loss on just about any casual mob(casual as in common).

The majority of my excitement as a rogue came to me while doing corpse runs for myself and my friends. You aren't worried about invis dropping, which is a giant plus, but you are moving slowly and can be at risk of wandering or hiding mobs who see invis.

A giant downside to playing a rogue is that you are basically forced to join forces with another player, but I've duo'd with numerous casters and a shit ton of bandages so don't let yourself feel limited, especially in groups with other rogues already. You are built for dps like a Plexiglas cannon, and we must admit that DPS is DPS. If you need a tank, a slower, a healer and 3 dps, fine, take 3 rogues and you can't go wrong.

All around, rogues are amazing, fun to play, exciting at most times, and very beneficial to have around.

[Pint]

Damnit I thought you were a people's champion, not a low tier troll. To your question though, yea rogues are boring as fuck. PL one to 60 me gear it and never touch it unless you're slaying a dragon.

[Supaskillz]

The majority of my excitement as a rogue came to me while doing corpse runs for myself and my friends. You aren't worried about invis dropping, which is a giant plus, but you are moving slowly and can be at risk of wandering or hiding mobs who see invis.


Corpse runs are fun now that hide is not easy mode where nothing sees you. Following see invis roamers etc is a good time. I doubt many people know spawn locations, Los limits, and roaming paths in seb better than I because you have to if you want to be effective on crs.

[Aviann]

Corpse runs are fun now that hide is not easy mode where nothing sees you. Following see invis roamers etc is a good time. I doubt many people know spawn locations, Los limits, and roaming paths in seb better than I because you have to if you want to be effective on crs.

Haha yea, had to learn that shit quickly, as well as how to strafe while sneaking.

[Juevento]

Biased but whatever. I think rogues are great. Like Supa said they are second to none for sustained DPS. After that there are so many small roles rogues can play during raids/groups that make the class a pleasure to learn inside and out.

For example, with the recent sneak changes, rogues are probably 1b with monks in terms of pulling. Rogues have the advantage of much better resist gear so they are less squishy when pulling casters. Plus if you role a dwarf you get a +5 MR boost. For raids, a competent monk/rogue pull team can work wonders.

Sneaking through dungeons is a ton of fun. Try to find new ways to get to past all those pesky see invis mobs to get to your group. You'll be surprised I think at the skill involved in getting your timing, the mob pathing, and positioning just so to avoid agro so that you can scamper by and get the corpse of your fallen group mate.

Rogues are probably the best melee class for farming stuff due to their DPS output. If you are lucky enough to obtain a thornstinger and Mrylokar's BP, you can kill low level mobs endlessly and essentially farm an entire dungeon.

Also, consider becoming a poison maker, if for no other reason than to be able to snare your opponent when doing PvP.

I suspect if you master any class, you find lots of intricacies that you wouldn't have thought of before. But for me, nothing beats the risk vs reward of being a thief.

[Supaskillz]

Juvento gets it. Except that dwarf thing, that's the dumbest shit I have heard. 5 mr never worth dorf. Their feet must be frozen.

[Malone88]

5 no button mashing, you can actually carry on a conversation in game while playing.

This. Nice break from playing my chanter...

Sucks that rogues get all the good stuff in late 50s though...patience needed.

[Juevento]

Lol, I roll around as a high elf these days anyways.

And for the button mashing thing, when I am doing my thing, my right hand never leaves the mouse so I have the ability to strafe and stay where I need to be on the mob. And my other hand is usually swapping thornstinger out for RB on backstabs, evading or something.

I wish I had time to chat :(

[Champion_Standing]

I am thinking it might be a class for heavy alcoholics, children, elderly, or disabled.

You should obviously be playing one.

[justin2090]

always use more rogues

[justin2090]

Lol, I roll around as a high elf these days anyways.

And for the button mashing thing, when I am doing my thing, my right hand never leaves the mouse so I have the ability to strafe and stay where I need to be on the mob. And my other hand is usually swapping thornstinger out for RB on backstabs, evading or something.

I wish I had time to chat :(

He's going the distance. He's going for speed.

[Supaskillz]

Lol, I roll around as a high elf these days anyways.

And for the button mashing thing, when I am doing my thing, my right hand never leaves the mouse so I have the ability to strafe and stay where I need to be on the mob. And my other hand is usually swapping thornstinger out for RB on backstabs, evading or something.

I wish I had time to chat :(

I'm confused about swapping thorn for rb. Seems bad to not have rb equipped. I swap efreeti war spear for thorn with rb off if I want max dps, but most of the time I am lazy and just my rb. Plus rune procs are huge aggro( or at least were 1.5 yrs ago) so I won't use thorn in all settings. I am interested in your weapon swap setup.

Positioning on mob is only important for raids imo you can stand in place most of the time in other settings. Evade is one keystroke.

[Juevento]

I have RB in offhand... best offhand weapon there is =)

As I am sans a war spear, I swap RB to mainhand while briefly going empty offhand. The transition is usually quick enough where I don't have any attacks fire except for the backstab. Every so often I'll notice a punch get through.

Positioning is important for all mobs! I've been in too many bad groups where people stupidly bash mobs into walls or fail to be in the right spot for maximum push to stop a cheal. That kind of stuff unfortunately translates to raids as well.

[Donruss]

What is this "thorn" ?

[Cecily]

Over hyped casual raider weapon.

[Supaskillz]

Over hyped casual raider weapon.

Thornstinger is what we are talking about.

Funny that it's overhyped when most rogues just don't use theirs. Way to get a dig in at casual eq players though.

@ Juevento your groups have way more push than mine if you have to always keep hand on hand on mouse to be properly positioned.

[Cecily]

That's not a dig, it's a description. TS doesn't perform as well as VP offhands. Casuals don't have VP offhands.
It's a nice soloing and tanking weapon, but I really don't care for it as a raiding weapon.

[Donruss]

Thanks :)

[Daldaen]

Why in the flying fuck would you use anything but RB in primary during Kunark?

[Yinikren]

Because the lower delay on a Thornstinger means that with the mainhand damage bonus it outdamages a Ragebringer in mainhand, no problem.

[Daldaen]

Except that you have to have Efreeti war spear on your cursor and swap it in every Backstab?

[Sckrilla]

I did a lot of extensive DPS trials with CE & Baxter back in the day when not many Rogues had either TS or RSSS. TS in MH - RSSS in OF, RB MH - RSSS OH, TS MH - RB OH, etc.

TS MH - RSSS OH (assuming you had Sky belt or GSB's) was pretty equal to sustained DPS you'd see with RB MH - RSSS OH; swapping in RB for TS for backstabs decreased DPS in the long run. So with that being said, most VP geared Rogues are going to roll with RB/RSSS and non-VP geared Rogues that have the capability of obtaining a TS should roll it MH with RB OH. Too lazy and preoccupied during raid encounters to bother with ever wanting to switch in and out weapons to begin with.

I miss having TS in MH, RSSS OH and RB in Ranged. =\

[Yinikren]

No, the mainhand damage bonus alone covers the 3 damage difference off backstabs if you choose to weapon swap. You guys severely underrate the mainhand damage bonus, which is the same reason weapons like a Revultant Whip get made fun of, despite being so fast that the ratio literally does not matter because you are swinging almost twice a second. Why the hell do you think the mosscovered branch got nerfed?

You basically hit a point where you are attacking so fast that your mainhand damage bonus makes up for (and exceeds) any damage you would get from wielding a higher damage, slower weapon. Check on the velious forums about everyone bitching about hitting for minimum damage a LOT during boss battles because of mob AC - Trust me, you'd much rather be hitting for minimum damage at 7 delay than at 12.5. You got babied with low AC Kunark mobs.

Let's do some maths. A rogue at 100% haste mainhands a Thornstinger and then a Ragebringer to test his mainhand damage.

With the Ragebringer, he swings 48 times a second (600/12.5). Of those swings, 60% ((240skill+60level/500)=.6) are double attacks. Accuracy at max weapon skill on an even con mob is around 66%. Your minimum mainhand hit will always be 12 (Damage bonus of 11+1 for connecting) So, for the numbers:

48+60%= approximately mainhand 76 swings per minute. Around 50 (66% accuracy) of those land. So just for turning on autoattack, your Ragebringer does a guaranteed 600 damage a minute from your damage bonus alone.

Now he mainhands a Thornstinger, which gets 66 swings a minute, or 105 with double attack factored in. That's 69 average hits per minute for 828 guaranteed damage. See where I am going here?

That's guaranteed, unmitigated damage. You can't hit lower than 12, so on these bosses where it actually matters, the faster your hits, the better off you are in the long run.

For funsies, ranger math works out to about 1068 damage per minute just from the mainhand damage bonus when wielding a revultant whip.

[Cecily]

So just for turning on autoattack, your Ragebringer does a guaranteed 600 damage a minute from your damage bonus alone.

That's 69 average hits per minute for 828 guaranteed damage. See where I am going here?

http://37.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_loepkua4QY1qludboo1_500.gif

That's a 228 damage gap based purely on delay. Now call me crazy, but that's not much. Factor in the higher POTENTIAL hits from a 15 dmg weapon on regular melee attacks and backstabs and it's pretty easy to see that RB is the superior weapon, most of the time.

TS is a tanking and solo weapon. Every Velious parse I've seen with TS main hand has been disastrous.

[Juevento]

Cecily must play one of those lucky rogues that doesn't miss half their backstabs and always hits for max dmg.

[webrunner5]

There isnt much skill involved and in general doesnt require a brain. I am thinking it might be a class for heavy alcoholics, children, elderly, or disabled.

I think you are talking about Wizard players in a group. :p:p

[Yinikren]

That's a 228 damage gap based purely on delay. Now call me crazy, but that's not much. Factor in the higher POTENTIAL hits from a 15 dmg weapon on regular melee attacks and backstabs and it's pretty easy to see that RB is the superior weapon, most of the time.

TS is a tanking and solo weapon. Every Velious parse I've seen with TS main hand has been disastrous.

Every time a RB hits for 70, a TS is hitting almost twice for 50. Unless you're hitting in the upper half of your damage table 50% of the time or more, TS is going to outdamage in the long run.

The 3 damage on a RB doesn't make as much as a hit difference as you would think.

Max hit formula is:
((Offense+STR)/100)*WeaponDamage+DamageBonus+1=Maxhit.
So, a 60 Rogue with 255 STR:
(252+255)/100=5.07.
5.07*X+12=MaxHit. Replace X with weapon damage.

Rage should hit for 88 max. Thorn hits for 72.84 which may or may not round.

[Supaskillz]

Every time a RB hits for 70, a TS is hitting almost twice for 50. Unless you're hitting in the upper half of your damage table 50% of the time or more, TS is going to outdamage in the long run.

The 3 damage on a RB doesn't make as much as a hit difference as you would think.

Max hit formula is:
((Offense+STR)/100)*WeaponDamage+DamageBonus+1=Maxhit.
So, a 60 Rogue with 255 STR:
(252+255)/100=5.07.
5.07*X+12=MaxHit. Replace X with weapon damage.

Rage should hit for 88 max. Thorn hits for 72.84 which may or may not round.

I don't think anyone is arguing for normal hits that thorn is not better. 3dmg for backstabs makes an appreciable difference. I don't know the exact formula for backsta and ts been tweaked a number of times on the server. We are talking small differences here anyway, but thorn stinger is sweet and no one will convince me otherwise. It's almost as sweet as burning rapier.

[Sckrilla]

TS MH - RSSS OH (assuming you had Sky belt or GSB's) was pretty equal to sustained DPS you'd see with RB MH - RSSS OH
Hay guyz, neato!

[Supaskillz]

Hay guyz, neato!

Bs mechanics have changed several times. Was said parsing under current mechanics?

Also I assume this was with rb in range. Now you lose atk bonus from rb which sucks

[Yinikren]

Backstab and mainhand damage both comprise about 40% of your melee dps with your offhand coming in at around 20%. That's why 3 weapon damage is borderline negligible when it comes to back stabs, since the ratio makes up for it via mainhand damage.

Also, weapon delay gets goofed a bit when you swap to a high damage mainhand for a backstab, and doesn't reset until after the next swing. If you swap to an efreeti war spear (15/40? I am at work) for a backstab, then swap back to a TS, your next mainhand swing occurs at 40 delay, not 18, losing you out on dps.

[Sckrilla]

Bs mechanics have changed several times. Was said parsing under current mechanics?

Also I assume this was with rb in range. Now you lose atk bonus from rb which sucks
I wasn't aware BS mechanics have been changed several times, where is this located at? These parses were March/April 2012ish however so definitely quite some time ago. The parses we did to compare TS vs RB in MH and RSSS in OH did not have RB in the Range but like I said were done with either Sky Belt or Grey Suede Boots (41% haste). When RB was able to be utilized in Range, TS/RSSS/RB combo was top DPS, no questions asked.

We are talking small differences here anyway
My quote was mainly directed at this comment because as I have told numerous other Rogues, via our parses, the RB vs TS MH debate was pretty much a wash with the appropriate haste(s) items/same OH. We'd see either or come out higher than the other almost equally enough times to call it a minimal difference.

Also, weapon delay gets goofed a bit when you swap to a high damage mainhand for a backstab, and doesn't reset until after the next swing. If you swap to an efreeti war spear (15/40? I am at work) for a backstab, then swap back to a TS, your next mainhand swing occurs at 40 delay, not 18, losing you out on dps.
^^this; hence why I said we actually saw a significant decrease in DPS when switching in the RB for the TS for backstabs.

[Supaskillz]

I wasn't aware BS mechanics have been changed several times, where is this located at? These parses were March/April 2012ish however so definitely quite some time ago.

Well it was tweaked several times in a short time frame after kunark launch. We had a month or so for example BS were hitting for max dmg an absurd amount of the time. To be fair I quit for a year and a half in the middle so it has prolly been the same for a very long time now.



^^this; hence why I said we actually saw a significant decrease in DPS when switching in the RB for the TS for backstabs.

There is no way this is correct. Slowing down 1x mh swing per backstab in order to add 3 dmg to backstab swing is going to be well worth it all day.

Also is RSSS really better OH when using thorn MH than RB? The ratio is slightly better, but Ragebringer give +40 to attack. 40 attack is not a ton, so I can see it being better, but I would guess this is almost a wash.

[Yinikren]

I told you before, you are severely underestimating mainhand damage and the damage bonus from having an 18 delay mainhander.

[Supaskillz]

I told you before, you are severely underestimating mainhand damage and the damage bonus from having an 18 delay mainhander.

You still get that delay on every other swing. The only question is, is that extra delay on 1 swing worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on a backstab swing. You really think giving dropping delay by 7 for a single swing in the RSSS case is worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on backstab?

[Sckrilla]

Well it was tweaked several times in a short time frame after kunark launch. We had a month or so for example BS were hitting for max dmg an absurd amount of the time. To be fair I quit for a year and a half in the middle so it has prolly been the same for a very long time now.
Yeah I am aware of this particular change, but I'm pretty sure there wasn't anything else done to BS calculation from the time we did those parses to today.



There is no way this is correct. Slowing down 1x mh swing per backstab in order to add 3 dmg to backstab swing is going to be well worth it all day.

Also is RSSS really better OH when using thorn MH than RB? The ratio is slightly better, but Ragebringer give +40 to attack. 40 attack is not a ton, so I can see it being better, but I would guess this is almost a wash.
Most certainly is correct. I've toyed with it soooo many times with VP encounters to make up my mind on the subject matter. Plus... lazy. And as I mentioned before, if you have TS and no access to a RSSS, I'd definitely go the TS/RB route. However, if you have the capability of obtaining a RSSS, then there's no reason to use the TS over the RB for the MH. TS/RSSS makes no sense due to the +atk.

[Yinikren]

You still get that delay on every other swing. The only question is, is that extra delay on 1 swing worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on a backstab swing. You really think giving dropping delay by 7 for a single swing in the RSSS case is worth more than the dmg bonus from 15 dmg vs 12 dmg on backstab?

On average? Probably. Think about it as averages. If your average BS with a ragebringer is 300 and your average backstab with a TS is 280 (random numbers to make a point) then yes, I could easily see the damage bonus making up for the deficient in a lower backstab.

Mainhanding a 15 damage dagger doesn't suddenly make every backstab do 150 more damage, it just skews your average backstab damage a bit to the right on a bell shaped curve.