What are some flaws in classic EQ that you actually like?

[sox7d]

And why?

[myxomatosii]

Flaw: Triangle boobs and butts.

Reason: I have a triangle penis.

[Swish]

The hybrid penalty is actually something I like, as much as most people hate it. If it applied to just the person leveling and not the group I'd say that would be perfect. Gotta have something that makes leveling extra challenging for some race/class combos.

[Frug]

Strafe running.

[Telin]

Mobs not giving up chasing you until you zone. Not because of trains but because it helps create some real fear.
High level players being able to buff and assist lower level players. Mostly because it helps start new friendships, and it's fun and more immersive to have that freedom rather than being restricted.

[Frug]

The hybrid penalty is actually something I like, as much as most people hate it. If it applied to just the person leveling and not the group I'd say that would be perfect. Gotta have something that makes leveling extra challenging for some race/class combos.

I always thought a dynamically adjustable XP factor would have been cool; the more race/class combos that are online at any given time reduces the XP that that combo gets, across the board. Have it recalculate every hour or so.

[Salerno]

All of them!

[myriverse]

If I like it, it couldn't be a flaw.

Seriously, I liked THE BOOK! None of the other so-called flaws.

Okay, strafe running too.

[Reguiy]

Twinking.

[Wiery]

I don't know if it can be considered a flaw in this community, but it most certainly would be if eq was released to the mmo market today: class imbalance. The diversity between classes makes each class feel unique. Something that most mmo's are lacking.

And, strafe running...

[Castigate]

Clickies refreshing spell gems and strafe running.

[captnamazing]

halfling/gnome/dwarf x-ray vision

[Zuranthium]

Mobs not giving up chasing you until you zone. Not because of trains but because it helps create some real fear.
High level players being able to buff and assist lower level players. Mostly because it helps start new friendships, and it's fun and more immersive to have that freedom rather than being restricted.

Well the first one isn't a flaw at all is it?

I don't think the second is a flaw in the sense that everyone should be able to interact with each other. The shit in modern MMO's where you have to be grouped to help someone, or a target becomes locked as soon as someone tags it, or all zones are instanced(!!!!) is just awful. The flaw is just that high level buffs shouldn't create their full effect on drastically lower level players, because then you get power-leveling which drastically breaks immersion. Long-duration buffs shouldn't exist at all because they are boring. ;)

I don't know if it can be considered a flaw in this community, but it most certainly would be if eq was released to the mmo market today: class imbalance. The diversity between classes makes each class feel unique. Something that most mmo's are lacking.

Class imbalance does not = diversity. You can certainly have way different classes, and way different types of characters within each class, that are actually mostly balanced. That latter category is something EQ is missing altogether. Everyone is just "a Cleric" or "a Warrior" or "a Wizard".

[Telin]

Well the first one isn't a flaw at all is it?

I don't think the second is a flaw in the sense that everyone should be able to interact with each other. The shit in modern MMO's where you have to be grouped to help someone, or a target becomes locked as soon as someone tags it, or all zones are instanced(!!!!) is just awful. The flaw is just that high level buffs shouldn't create their full effect on drastically lower level players, because then you get power-leveling which drastically breaks immersion. Long-duration buffs shouldn't exist at all because they are boring. ;)



Class imbalance does not = diversity. You can certainly have way different classes, and way different types of characters within each class, that are actually mostly balanced. That latter category is something EQ is missing altogether. Everyone is just "a Cleric" or "a Warrior" or "a Wizard".

Flaws discussed about game design are subjective. I can't imagine the ability to train an entire zone was intended.

I actually don't think power leveling breaks immersion, it makes sense that a more experienced character would have the power to influence their friends by spells at full power. Controlling it would otherwise break my immersion because what invisible force that exists in Norrath would restrict that?

[khanable]

Corpse death ftw

edit: I only assume this is deemed a 'flaw' by basically every other game spawning you with your shit somewhere safe

[moklianne]

I enjoy the class imbalance of classic EQ. Not everyone should be able to solo, just like not everyone should be able to tank a raid mob. As EQ went on, they blurred the lines between the classes and made most unique abilities shared among other classes.

[Zuranthium]

I actually don't think power leveling breaks immersion, it makes sense that a more experienced character would have the power to influence their friends by spells at full power. Controlling it would otherwise break my immersion because what invisible force that exists in Norrath would restrict that?

You have to be experienced enough to wield the power. It's like if the most skilled programmer in the World writes a revolutionary new code and tries to show it to someone who doesn't understand computer programming well enough. Or if you give the best sword in the World to someone who has only taken a few lessons in sword fighting. Things can't and shouldn't just transfer directly across levels.

[Bboboo]

You have to be experienced enough to wield the power. It's like if the most skilled programmer in the World writes a revolutionary new code and tries to show it to someone who doesn't understand computer programming well enough. Or if you give the best sword in the World to someone who has only taken a few lessons in sword fighting. Things can't and shouldn't just transfer directly across levels.

I can take roids having no experience with them and be buff.

[Zuranthium]

No you can't actually, you still have to put in a considerable amount of work doing weight lifting. Plus steroids create negative side effects.

[rogoshen]

If you just take the roids you'll get bewbs, and an attitude... lol

[Bboboo]

Sorry, news says otherwise and I trust the news.

[Ciroco]

The hybrid penalty is actually something I like, as much as most people hate it. If it applied to just the person leveling and not the group I'd say that would be perfect. Gotta have something that makes leveling extra challenging for some race/class combos.

Because we all know how easy Rangers have it.

[Ciroco]

Mobs not giving up chasing you until you zone. Not because of trains but because it helps create some real fear.

This is only a function of P1999 as opposed to classic EQ, correct? I distinctly remember mobs clearing aggro if you ran far enough away, as in maybe halfway across the zone.

[Telin]

This is only a function of P1999 as opposed to classic EQ, correct? I distinctly remember mobs clearing aggro if you ran far enough away, as in maybe halfway across the zone.

I think it was clear to the zone line in Classic zones, but starting in Kunark zones they may stop chasing after a long distance; however, you remained on their hate list and they would aggro you when you're back within a certain range.

[rogoshen]

I think it was clear to the zone line in Classic zones, but starting in Kunark zones they may stop chasing after a long distance; however, you remained on their hate list and they would aggro you when you're back within a certain range.

yup!

[Wiery]

Class imbalance does not = diversity. You can certainly have way different classes, and way different types of characters within each class, that are actually mostly balanced. That latter category is something EQ is missing altogether. Everyone is just "a Cleric" or "a Warrior" or "a Wizard".

Actually, it is a direct correlation. Because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. This is an opinions thread. Therefore, if you disagree with mine, yours becomes invalid ;)

[Zuranthium]

Actually, it is a direct correlation. Because you don't like it, doesn't mean it's wrong. This is an opinions thread.

No it isn't a direct correlation.

Classes could be incredibly imbalanced and there could be no diversity at all. Such as a game with classes named "Warrior", "Fighter", "Brawler", "Knight" that all do exactly the same thing, just with different skill names, but Warrior hits for 500 and Fighter hits for 400 and Brawler hits for 300, etc.

That's actually how melee fighting works in Everquest. You just auto-attack and click on your "kick" buttons when they refresh and the amount of damage you do is solely dependent on your class (aside from gear, of course).

Imbalance has nothing to do with diversity. Everquest could be far more balanced AND have far more diversity at the same time.

[Kika Maslyaka]

No it isn't a direct correlation.

Classes could be incredibly imbalanced and there could be no diversity at all. Such as a game with classes named "Warrior", "Fighter", "Brawler", "Knight" that all do exactly the same thing, just with different skill names, but Warrior hits for 500 and Fighter hits for 400 and Brawler hits for 300, etc.

That's actually how melee fighting works in Everquest. You just auto-attack and click on your "kick" buttons when they refresh and the amount of damage you do is solely dependent on your class (aside from gear, of course).

Imbalance has nothing to do with diversity. Everquest could be far more balanced AND have far more diversity at the same time.

+1

EQ definitely was decent on diversity but pretty poor on balance

[Clark]

If I like it, it couldn't be a flaw.

Seriously, I liked THE BOOK! None of the other so-called flaws.

Okay, strafe running too.

Spell book is terrible :D, but strafe running is good.

[sox7d]

I think it was clear to the zone line in Classic zones, but starting in Kunark zones they may stop chasing after a long distance; however, you remained on their hate list and they would aggro you when you're back within a certain range.

I believe they stopped chasing you after the distance between them and you was great enough rather than some sort of tether. I also don't recall agro remaining when returning near their bind.

[Zuranthium]

Spell book is terrible :D, but strafe running is good.

I really like the idea of the book, if downtime wasn't so extreme. I definitely remember it creating some real tension when fighting in many areas.

[Supaskillz]

It's hard to know what is considered a flaw.

Many people consider inability of many classes to solo a flaw, I love this feature.
Many consider the difficulty of travel for everyone but druids and wizards a flaw, again I love this. A journey should take time.

In regards to class balance I think it is more balanced than people give it credit for. The most effective soloers are often not the most effective group members or not the most useful on raid mobs. The best group tanks are not the best raid tanks. The best healers sucks at soloing, whereas other healing classes can solo quite well. Even rangers who are the subject of many jokes, can do decent dps(so are always being compared to rogues and monks) get tons of great utility in root, snare, sow, invis, that other melee dps would love to have.

[Voland]

Strafe running.

No strafe running in Live?

[Voland]

Clickies refreshing spell gems and strafe running.

It would be nice if they didn't allow strafe running in the naked race they had on Red a few days ago. If you can outrun the monsters, it kind of defeats the purpose.

[Wiery]

No it isn't a direct correlation.

Classes could be incredibly imbalanced and there could be no diversity at all. Such as a game with classes named "Warrior", "Fighter", "Brawler", "Knight" that all do exactly the same thing, just with different skill names, but Warrior hits for 500 and Fighter hits for 400 and Brawler hits for 300, etc.

That's actually how melee fighting works in Everquest. You just auto-attack and click on your "kick" buttons when they refresh and the amount of damage you do is solely dependent on your class (aside from gear, of course).

Imbalance has nothing to do with diversity. Everquest could be far more balanced AND have far more diversity at the same time.

Imbalance has everything to do with diversity. This applies to games as much as in the real world. If everything was balanced, there would be no diversity.

For the sake of the conversation at hand, lets look at it from another perspective. If the classes were "balanced", all tank classes could tank all mobs with the same effectiveness, all dps classes would provide the same total number of dps given any encounter, all healers could effectively heal all members of a similarly comprised group, and all classes could solo with equal effectiveness. Because it's not balanced, classes have niches in the game, which is something that I prefer.

If you're looking for homogenization and the same abilities with different names that function nearly identically on a surface level, then Warcraft pretty well has that perfected.

[Wiery]

In regards to class balance I think it is more balanced than people give it credit for. The most effective soloers are often not the most effective group members or not the most useful on raid mobs. The best group tanks are not the best raid tanks. The best healers sucks at soloing, whereas other healing classes can solo quite well. Even rangers who are the subject of many jokes, can do decent dps(so are always being compared to rogues and monks) get tons of great utility in root, snare, sow, invis, that other melee dps would love to have.

Agreed. In this sense, the game as whole has a good harmony.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Imbalance has everything to do with diversity. This applies to games as much as in the real world. If everything was balanced, there would be no diversity.

For the sake of the conversation at hand, lets look at it from another perspective. If the classes were "balanced", all tank classes could tank all mobs with the same effectiveness, all dps classes would provide the same total number of dps given any encounter, all healers could effectively heal all members of a similarly comprised group, and all classes could solo with equal effectiveness. Because it's not balanced, classes have niches in the game, which is something that I prefer.

If you're looking for homogenization and the same abilities with different names that function nearly identically on a surface level, then Warcraft pretty well has that perfected.

you wrong see how EQ2 handles balanced but different healers, as well as mitigation tanks vs avoidance tanks.

[Zuranthium]

Imbalance has everything to do with diversity. This applies to games as much as in the real world. If everything was balanced, there would be no diversity.

You have much to learn, apparently about both game design and life. There are hundreds of ethnicities in the World. It's generally considered that they are "balanced" - australians are equal japanese, spanish are equal to french, etc. And, yet, these cultures are all very different.

If you're looking for homogenization and the same abilities with different names that function nearly identically on a surface level, then Warcraft pretty well has that perfected.

THAT'S NOT WHAT BALANCE IS.

Holy shit.

Balance is taking any number of DIFFERENT variables and combining them such that one set of variables is roughly equal to another set of variables.

For the sake of the conversation at hand, lets look at it from another perspective. If the classes were "balanced", all tank classes could tank all mobs with the same effectiveness, all dps classes would provide the same total number of dps given any encounter, all healers could effectively heal all members of a similarly comprised group, and all classes could solo with equal effectiveness.

It's not just about the numbers, it's about the METHOD. Fighting as a Warrior should be much different than fighting as a Monk. Fighting as a Ranger should be much different than fighting as a Rogue. It's about different playstyles and each class should require skill and experience to play very well. There are all kinds of mechanics that can be implemented in a game to make each class distinct.

If they were well balanced, they wouldn't be equally as good as the other in any given encounter. They would be equally as good as the other over the course of a number of different encounters and at the highest level of play. Moreover, if you had a great amount of diversity AND a great amount of balance, then you would be able to mix and match a wide variety of characters to create a strong team. Each team would be very different, though. That's where part of the fun comes in.

As far as numbers go, assume that each "tank" has 4 different attributes. Now assume that "Tank A" could do each of those those things at a rating of 7 + 3 + 8 + 2. His score is 20. Now assume that "Tank B" could do each of those things at a rating of 4 + 6 + 4 + 6. His score is also 20, but his skills are completely different. That's balance. They would each be better than the other in different situations and in varying degrees. It needs to be more complex than this example and some abilities can't even be strictly "rated", but that is the overall idea.

[Wiery]

you wrong see how EQ2 handles balanced but different healers, as well as mitigation tanks vs avoidance tanks.

You can't even type a coherent sentence, so it's hard to take you seriously. Remember, there is no time limit on the submit button.

[Wiery]

You have much to learn, apparently about both game design and life. There are hundreds of ethnicities in the World. It's generally considered that they are "balanced" - australians are equal japanese, spanish are equal to french, etc. And, yet, these cultures are all very different.

What is your measure of balance?

THAT'S NOT WHAT BALANCE IS.

Yes it is.

Holy shit.

Calm your tits.

Balance is taking any number of DIFFERENT variables and combining them such that one set of variables is roughly equal to another set of variables.

When one's white hit does not equal the other's white hit, there is an imbalance. When one's amount of dps output offsets the amount of incoming damage is equal to the other's dps plus healing, rendering the single white hit variance insignificant, then there is balance. Is that what you're trying to say? If so, EQ is not balanced and is therefore diverse.

It's not just about the numbers, it's about the METHOD. Fighting as a Warrior should be much different than fighting as a Monk. Fighting as a Ranger should be much different than fighting as a Rogue. It's about different playstyles and each class should require skill and experience to play very well. There are all kinds of mechanics that can be implemented in a game to make each class distinct.

If they were well balanced, they wouldn't be equally as good as the other in any given encounter. They would be equally as good as the other over the course of a number of different encounters and at the highest level of play. Moreover, if you had a great amount of diversity AND a great amount of balance, then you would be able to mix and match a wide variety of characters to create a strong team. Each team would be very different, though. That's where part of the fun comes in.

As far as numbers go, assume that each "tank" had 4 different attributes. Now assume that "Tank A" could do each of those those things at a rating of 7 + 3 + 8 + 2. His score is 20. Now assume that "Tank B" could do each of those things at a rating of 4 + 6 + 4 + 6. His score is also 20, but his skills are completely different. That's balance. They would each be better than the other in different situations and in varying degrees.

I don't disagree with this.

[Glenzig]

How did this become a discussion about how to program class balance?

[mtb tripper]

I really like the idea of the book, if downtime wasn't so extreme. I definitely remember it creating some real tension when fighting in many areas.

I really liked the book as well

[radditsu]

Shooting an arrow and clicking circlet in between server ticks was gr8.

[Zuranthium]

THAT'S NOT WHAT BALANCE IS.Yes it is.

NO, it isn't. You can't say "balance is bad because it creates homogenization, like WoW". That is merely the most simplistic form of balance possible. You're taking an apple and comparing it to the same brand of apple. You're saying 1 = 1.

Actual good balance in game design would be taking a wide number of different properties and combining them such that it resembles a complex algebraic equation. Something like "Rangers have abilities of 2b(3a + 4z +5y)" and that's just about as good as "Shadowknights who have abilities of (3k * 5h) + (2g * 3s)".

When one's white hit does not equal the other's white hit, there is an imbalance. When one's amount of dps output offsets the amount of incoming damage is equal to the other's dps plus healing, rendering the single white hit variance insignificant, then there is balance. Is that what you're trying to say? If so, EQ is not balanced and is therefore diverse.

Again, imbalance and diversity inherently have nothing to do with each other. You don't know what you're talking about.

The example in this quote is just balance in a simplistic manner. This example does already begin to show diversity, though. If one class could "do 100 damage per second", they would be more or less useful in different scenarios than another class who can "do 50 damage per second and take 50 less damage per second".

There are way more variables and mechanics that a game should have, though. For a game like this, you should have to consider Ranged damage, AoE damage, interrupts, shutdown, stuns/knockdowns, snares/roots, energy denial, stances, enchantments, conditions, hexes, "spike damage" vs. "pressure damage", movement speed increases. There are SO many things that can go into it, both offensively and defensively.

So, once again, Everquest could have FAR more balance and FAR more diversity. Just because Everquest is better than WoW, that doesn't mean it is anywhere close to being the best product possible.

[Kika Maslyaka]

You can't even type a coherent sentence, so it's hard to take you seriously. Remember, there is no time limit on the submit button.

And it seems when one goes after "grammar" - he obviously has nothing to say.
There is no limit on think time neither, but it seems your brain capacity prevents that.

[Kika Maslyaka]

There are way more variables and mechanics that a game should have, though. For a game like this, you should have to consider Ranged damage, AoE damage, interrupts, shutdown, stuns/knockdowns, snares/roots, energy denial, stances, enchantments, conditions, hexes, "spike damage" vs. "pressure damage", movement speed increases. There are SO many things that can go into it, both offensively and defensively.


+1

I can also add - take StarCraft a brilliant example of balanced yet completely different sides. Here is some diversity for you.

[Bessy]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-17Y8ZOKquok/TVtyzVXJjpI/AAAAAAAADB0/RLGcEbkoHvY/s640/EQUI.jpg

classic ui.

[Wiery]

+1

I can also add - take StarCraft a brilliant example of balanced yet completely different sides. Here is some diversity for you.

And after "here", you're supposed to provide something intelligible to the the conversation. Still waiting...

The example in this quote is just balance in a simplistic manner.

Of course it is. This is so Kika could understand.

How did this become a discussion about how to program class balance?

But alas, we're arguing well off topic as Glenzig points out. If you actually wish to carry on a conversation about this and are not trying to simply flex your epeen, then send me a PM. If not, have a good night, good sir. I'll be returning to topic.

classic ui.

Loved having the class icon prominently diplsayed on screen all of the time.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Of course it is. This is so Kika could understand.



Oh Kika understood him even before his detailed explanations. Since you not so bright, he had to lay it out in details.

[Zuranthium]

I think it's time for sunshine and hugs!