XP penalty vs an XP bonus in grouping.

[Rhuma7]

I find it a little backwards and in my personal opinion, a stupid un-educated coding mistake on the live developers to handle sharing of experience when a halfling warrior groups with an iksar shadowknight for example, they switch their experience penalty/bonus with the halfling warrior getting less experience per kill by grouping with them while the shadowknight is getting more experience per kill by grouping.

In the grand scheme of things, the only one getting screwed by grouping are those who didn't pick a hybrid with a racial penalty.

Velious cant come soon enough.

[sox7d]

solution: ban all classes except warrior, enchanter, cleric, rogue.

[Lictor]

I hear inviting rangers gives all other group members bonus exp.

[loramin]

Yes, the original "stupid un-educated" devs made a terrible mistake of thinking you'd actually want to play with your friends (which would require staying at the same level as them). What idiots they were: they should have known neckbeards have no friends ;-)

[drktmplr12]

It wasn't a mistake.

The logic is that if two players are equal level, they should level at the same rate when grouped. So if you take a 20.5 cleric and 20.5 shadow knight... they should take an equal number of kills to level to 21.

I did some math about this a while ago.. and its on the forums somewhere. The result is with a full group and one hybrid.. it isn't that big of a deal. Fill the group with hybrids and the clerics and warriors start to hurt.

[sox7d]

hybrids have exp penalties because EQ is based off the old DnD rules where multi-classing has roughly the same experience penalty.

[Shamalam]

they switch their experience penalty/bonus with the halfling warrior getting less experience per kill by grouping with them while the shadowknight is getting more experience per kill by grouping.

No, that is not how it works. Please read: http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works

The halfling warrior needs less exp per level than the iksar SK. A LOT less. That means, if they are the same level, the warrior has much less TOTAL EXP, meaning he will get a smaller piece of the exp pie. They do not "switch their experience penalty/bonus" or any such nonsense. If they had the same amount of TOTAL EXP, meaning the warrior would be a higher level than the SK, they would get the exact same amount of exp per kill.

Yes, hybrid classes take longer to level, and if they are equal in level with the rest of the group, they will take a bigger chunk of the exp. HOWEVER, this basically boils down to them leveling at the same rate as the rest of the group, since they take more exp but also need more to level up. They did this so that you can group with your hybrid friends and not leave them behind. You're correct that it will be much less noticeable in velious with the removal of class penalties, but the same system will still apply for racial penalties.

[Swish]

hybrids have exp penalties because EQ is based off the old DnD rules where multi-classing has roughly the same experience penalty.

[captnamazing]

group mechanics favor hybrids

that's why I only solo

[Dragonsblood1987]

I find it a little backwards and in my personal opinion, a stupid un-educated coding mistake on the live developers to handle sharing of experience when a halfling warrior groups with an iksar shadowknight for example, they switch their experience penalty/bonus with the halfling warrior getting less experience per kill by grouping with them while the shadowknight is getting more experience per kill by grouping.

In the grand scheme of things, the only one getting screwed by grouping are those who didn't pick a hybrid with a racial penalty.

Velious cant come soon enough.

If the sk is a few levels lower the xp evens out

[captnamazing]

While on the topic of xp groups

Best xp I've ever seen was in an lguk trio with me tanking, enc with pet, and cleric

[Rhuma7]

No, that is not how it works. Please read: http://wiki.project1999.com/Game_Mechanics#How_Experience_Works

The halfling warrior needs less exp per level than the iksar SK. A LOT less. That means, if they are the same level, the warrior has much less TOTAL EXP, meaning he will get a smaller piece of the exp pie. They do not "switch their experience penalty/bonus" or any such nonsense. If they had the same amount of TOTAL EXP, meaning the warrior would be a higher level than the SK, they would get the exact same amount of exp per kill.

Yes, hybrid classes take longer to level, and if they are equal in level with the rest of the group, they will take a bigger chunk of the exp. HOWEVER, this basically boils down to them leveling at the same rate as the rest of the group, since they take more exp but also need more to level up. They did this so that you can group with your hybrid friends and not leave them behind. You're correct that it will be much less noticeable in velious with the removal of class penalties, but the same system will still apply for racial penalties.

I've read the page and have a very firm understanding of how penalties are distributed. Which is why it was stated "per kill."

When you penalize someone for being a hybrid...then make everyone level at the same speed as hybrids, you're being retarded.

Warriors/rogues should level faster than hybrids...not require less xp per level but get less xp per kill making the whole fucking point of an xp bonus pointless.

[Doors]

Play red, none of this bullshit is on that server.

[August]

The only thing you need to know is that for each mob you kill, you get:

(Your total exp earned) / (Total exp earned by everyone in the group) of the experience.

The side effect of this is that a hybrid, that is the same level as you, will have more exp earned than you.

now, what i want to know is what happens when two people with disparate penalties group together without ever getting any experience.

Their total pie is always the same, but they still require different amounts to level, so they would outpace each other. Is it special cased?

[Ciroco]

Some of you are implying that all group members level at exactly the same rate (as in same % exp per kill), which is not true. The person with less total experience is penalized, but I don't know the exact formula for that (does anyone?).

Either way, we all know the penalty is stupid, but classicness > logic here, so suck it up til Velious.

[August]

Some of you are implying that all group members level at exactly the same rate (as in same % exp per kill), which is not true. The person with less total experience is penalized, but I don't know the exact formula for that (does anyone?).

Either way, we all know the penalty is stupid, but classicness > logic here, so suck it up til Velious.

Eh, but the person with the least total experience also takes less experience to level.

When you are grouped, everyone should be getting the same percent of their level, barring those who are changing modifiers (hell levels)

[loramin]

Y'all are missing the point: if experience worked the way you wanted to, and a hybrid and a non-hybrid were grouping together, the non-hybrid would quickly get ahead of the hybrid.

Since the EQ devs expected friends to play together, not just a bunch of lonely P99 neckbeards, they wanted to make sure those friends could level up together. It wouldn't be very fun if you and a RL friend started together, but soon couldn't play together because one of you made the mistake of picking a hybrid.

This isn't a bug or mistake, it's a deliberate decision to allow friends to play together.

[Rhuma7]

Y'all are missing the point: if experience worked the way you wanted to, and a hybrid and a non-hybrid were grouping together, the non-hybrid would quickly get ahead of the hybrid.

Since the EQ devs expected friends to play together, not just a bunch of lonely P99 neckbeards, they wanted to make sure those friends could level up together. It wouldn't be very fun if you and a RL friend started together, but soon couldn't play together because one of you made the mistake of picking a hybrid.

This isn't a bug or mistake, it's a deliberate decision to allow friends to play together.

It would be a mistake to have penalties or bonus' if that were the case. Stop trying to force some bullshit after-the-fact PR message to cover-up their mistakes.

[loramin]

Stop trying to force some bullshit after-the-fact PR message to cover-up their mistakes.

LOL you can believe whatever you want about the motives of developers 15 years ago, but it's a very simple concept to understand: if different players level at different rates, two players who happen to be friends soon won't be able to play together.

What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

[Rhuma7]

LOL you can believe whatever you want about the motives of developers 15 years ago, but it's a very simple concept to understand: if different players level at different rates, two players who happen to be friends soon won't be able to play together.

What part of that doesn't make sense to you?

The part where they made xp penalties for classes that can solo effectively and xp bonuses for classes that cant solo effectively and need to group.

It's a very simple concept. Which in the end, the penalties were removed proving it was a dumb idea to begin with.

Edit: lets not forget the developers of 15 years ago were brad "pill head" mcquaid that cant make a game if his life depended on it. The simple fact EQ was even remotely successful was blind luck that all the half assed mechanics were made into decent ones by the players, like feign death pulling.

[August]

This isn't a mistake - they had to purposefully code it this way.

Example:

Human Druid = 0 modifier
Human Enchanter = -10 modifier

That means that to reach a certain, arbitrary level, if it took 100k experience for the druid, it would take 110K experience for the enchanter. Let's call this level 30.

So, they're both at level 30. Druid has 100k experience, Enchanter has 110k experience.

They kill a mob worth 1k experience total.

Druid gets 100/210 * 1k = 476 experience
Enchanter gest 110/210 * 1k = 523 experience.

Let's say it takes 20K (doesn't matter) to level. That means it would take 22K to level for the enchanter.

Each mob gives 1k experience.

Druid requires = 20,000/476 = 42 mobs to level
Enchanter requires = 22,000/523 = 42 mobs to level

Thus they level at the same time.

This was 100% intentional. It preserves level gaps because the relationships cancel each other out, and all that ends up mattering is the exp modifier, group bonus, and how fast you kill. Everyone levels at the same speed.

[Rhuma7]

This isn't a mistake - they had to purposefully code it this way.

Example:

Human Druid = 0 modifier
Human Enchanter = -10 modifier

That means that to reach a certain, arbitrary level, if it took 100k experience for the druid, it would take 110K experience for the enchanter. Let's call this level 30.

So, they're both at level 30. Druid has 100k experience, Enchanter has 110k experience.

They kill a mob worth 1k experience total.

Druid gets 100/210 * 1k = 476 experience
Enchanter gest 110/210 * 1k = 523 experience.

Let's say it takes 20K (doesn't matter) to level. That means it would take 22K to level for the enchanter.

Each mob gives 1k experience.

Druid requires = 20,000/476 = 42 mobs to level
Enchanter requires = 22,000/523 = 42 mobs to level

Thus they level at the same time.

This was 100% intentional. It preserves level gaps because the relationships cancel each other out, and all that ends up mattering is the exp modifier, group bonus, and how fast you kill. Everyone levels at the same speed.



So, they're both at level 30. Druid has 100k experience, Enchanter has 100k experience.

They kill a mob worth 1k experience total.

Druid gets 100/200 * 1k = 500 experience
Enchanter gest 100/200 * 1k = 500 experience.

Let's say it takes 20K (doesn't matter) to level. That means it would take 20K to level for the enchanter.

Each mob gives 1k experience.

Druid requires = 20,000/500 = 40 mobs to level
Enchanter requires = 20,000/500 = 40 mobs to level

Thus they level at the same time.


Fixed it for you.

[loramin]

The part where they made xp penalties for classes that can solo effectively and xp bonuses for classes that cant solo effectively and need to group.

It's a very simple concept. Which in the end, the penalties were removed proving it was a dumb idea to begin with.

Edit: lets not forget the developers of 15 years ago were brad "pill head" mcquaid that cant make a game if his life depended on it. The simple fact EQ was even remotely successful was blind luck that all the half assed mechanics were made into decent ones by the players, like feign death pulling.


Lemme rephrase that:

I'm really bitter about a decision a bunch of developers made 15 years ago, and now I'm going to rant about how bad of a decision they made in an emulated server forum.
When someone tries to explain why they did what they did, I'll completely ignore what they say, and instead argue about a different decision they made that I also think was bad.
Oh, and because I'm really mad, I'm going to insult the developers who created this game, and the terrible game itself ... that makes me so passionate that I feel the need to argue about decisions made on it 15 years ago.

[Rhuma7]

Lemme rephrase that:

Sure, change the subject and resort to sarcasm because you can't defend your own position in an argument.

Xp penalties working the way they were, werent done on purpose, if the group xp was divided on purpose to neglect the xp penalty there wouldn't have been one in the first place.

[Danth]

Xp penalties working the way they were, werent done on purpose, if the group xp was divided on purpose to neglect the xp penalty there wouldn't have been one in the first place.

It was deliberate, as the original developers themselves confirmed. I don't feel like checking around the internet for the quotes but it's out there if you look. IIRC they changed it during EQ beta when they noticed folks were out-leveling their friends. Yes, it had the effect of rendering the experience penalties largely pointless. C'est la vie; Everquest is in some ways a badly-made game.

Danth

[loramin]

Sure, change the subject and resort to sarcasm because you can't defend your own position in an argument.

It's not really an argument when everyone in the thread tries to explain something to one person, and that one person just ignores everything they say.

Xp penalties working the way they were, werent done on purpose

I'm sure, being the master programmer that you are, you know exactly what coders 15 years ago meant and didn't mean to do. Like for instance, that they introduced a major aspect of their game, which would have required explicit coding, on accident and without any awareness of what they were doing.

if the group xp was divided on purpose to neglect the xp penalty there wouldn't have been one in the first place.

Air-tight logic ... except for the fact that there was one in the first place.

[August]

If you're arguing that penalties shouldn't exist then I'm not here to debate that. I'm arguing that they intended the penalties and intentionally coded exp gain to even out leveling speeds while grouped. Nothing more.

[Rhuma7]

Id like to leave this thread with a question to you all. More of a rhetorical question.


If a rogue and warrior are the only classes, that have an xp bonus... Why are they always getting the least amount of experience in a group, to which they are dependent on and without a fungi at the very least, cant solo?

With this in mind, the xp bonus doesn't exist, since every class has a penalty excluding them. You're telling me that was intended?

[Ele]

Id like to leave this thread with a question to you all. More of a rhetorical question.


If a rogue and warrior are the only classes, that have an xp bonus... Why are they always getting the least amount of experience in a group, to which they are dependent on and without a fungi at the very least, cant solo?

With this in mind, the xp bonus doesn't exist, since every class has a penalty excluding them. You're telling me that was intended?

Does it matter? It is in and staying until Velious.

[Ahldagor]

Does it matter? It is in and staying until Velious.

droppin nukes like always. much respect.

[Morlaeth]

Not classic.

/thread

[Murmus]

My opinion, exp bonus = penalty = who cares eat cake and enjoy playing with whoever

[Ciroco]

Eh, but the person with the least total experience also takes less experience to level.

When you are grouped, everyone should be getting the same percent of their level, barring those who are changing modifiers (hell levels)

That's why I'm trying to say: that's not how it works.

[August]

Id like to leave this thread with a question to you all. More of a rhetorical question.


If a rogue and warrior are the only classes, that have an xp bonus... Why are they always getting the least amount of experience in a group, to which they are dependent on and without a fungi at the very least, cant solo?

With this in mind, the xp bonus doesn't exist, since every class has a penalty excluding them. You're telling me that was intended?

This isn't rhetorical. The exp bonus incentivizes a group to take the pure form of the role (dps, tank) over a a hybrid class with more versatility.

[August]

That's why I'm trying to say: that's not how it works.

Show me with math how it doesnt

[Rhuma7]

My opinion, exp bonus = penalty = who cares eat cake and enjoy playing with whoever

Honestly, I'm mad that I rolled a halfling warrior for the xp bonus but I later learned how xp is really gained in a group on p99 and I feel like an idiot for not rolling ogre or troll.

Edit: I sacrificed slam and front stun immunity/regen for absolutely fucking nothing.

[Zuranthium]

Grouping is always an exp penalty for me because I am amazing and nobody else contributes as much, therefore they are simply stealing my exp and slowing me down. I consider it charity work to group and I do a lot of it because it makes me a better person.

[Ciroco]

Show me with math how it doesnt

I can't. I said that I don't know the formula. What I do know is that I'm a hybrid, and whenever I'm grouped and a non-hybrid says "I got X% exp since we got here", I always have less. I did a hate clear with a level 48 rogue in my group a few weeks back; I got ~10% of my level and he got ~30%. The level 51 (or 52?) in our group was somewhere in the middle.

[Danth]

Honestly, I'm mad that I rolled a halfling warrior for the xp bonus but I later learned how xp is really gained in a group on p99 and I feel like an idiot for not rolling ogre or troll. I sacrificed slam and front stun immunity/regen for absolutely nothing.

Slam doesn't matter once you're 55 and Kick interrupts anyway. You can make fair use of your racial bonus if you elect to duo. Find a shaman and get to work.

--------------

There may be some glitches with experience averaging, but the system as a whole works fairly well. Leveling my Shadow Knight with my wife's Shaman, we always made exactly the same rate of experience when grouped from level 20 to 60.

Danth

[Ele]

Honestly, I'm mad that I rolled a halfling warrior for the xp bonus but I later learned how xp is really gained in a group on p99 and I feel like an idiot for not rolling ogre or troll.

Edit: I sacrificed slam and front stun immunity/regen for absolutely fucking nothing.

You got hide and sneak!

[Imslap]

Honestly, I'm mad that I rolled a halfling warrior for the xp bonus but I later learned how xp is really gained in a group on p99 and I feel like an idiot for not rolling ogre or troll.

Edit: I sacrificed slam and front stun immunity/regen for absolutely fucking nothing.

Fucking make your own groups and exclude ALL HYBRIDS. Also to be excluded, iksar monks, iksar necros, troll shamans.

Quit crying about how your bonus is useless. I do not invite paladins or SKs to tank in groups when my objective is grinding exp as fast as possible. I would love to have your halfling warrior tank for any group that I make.

tl;dr make groups that exclude the penalties so that your exp flies.

[drktmplr12]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

Rhuma7.

Read this.

/thread.

[Imslap]

http://everquest.allakhazam.com/editorial/011401_EQ_Producers_letter.html

Rhuma7.

Read this.

/thread.

/thread indeed. That shit needs to be stickied.

[kain200]

Man that patch can't come soon enough. So is the grouping exp bonus on blue 99 currently only 2% per member up to 10% max? I never realized it was that bad, I always thought it was 20% with full group but that letter says they implement that with the hybrid penalty removals after velious

[Erydan Ouragan]

The xp penalty is awesome. I want to get 60 before Velious hits so that i can send tells to lowbie bards: "easy mode no penalty scrub, back in my day we had to walk in the snow uphill for hours to get a single level."

[webrunner5]

It wasn't a mistake.

The logic is that if two players are equal level, they should level at the same rate when grouped. So if you take a 20.5 cleric and 20.5 shadow knight... they should take an equal number of kills to level to 21.

I did some math about this a while ago.. and its on the forums somewhere. The result is with a full group and one hybrid.. it isn't that big of a deal. Fill the group with hybrids and the clerics and warriors start to hurt.

Smart person who speaks the truth. :cool:

[Rettj]

Red99 group bonus off the chizzie

[Cecily]

The xp penalty is awesome. I want to get 60 before Velious hits so that i can send tells to lowbie bards: "easy mode no penalty scrub, back in my day we had to walk in the snow uphill for hours to get a single level."

This, except for ranger.