New App: Log-reader-map-tracker

[Kika Maslyaka]

Inspired by the thread:
http://www.project1999.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148251

Some of the main arguments:

For:
-log parsers are legal
-do NOT interfere with gameplay mechanics

Against:
-break spirit of classic - the software essentially circumvents official disabling of in-game maps by GMs
-DO interfere with gameplay mechanics give player advantage in knowing exact position. Potentially even more significant for PvP

[loramin]

I voted against the spirit because there wasn't an "it's against the spirit, but so are a million other things like puppet string-ed OT hammers so why are we even caring about this?" option.

[HawkMasterson1999]

The kiddies want ice cream for dinner

[Blade]

I voted "Don't really give a fuck" because honestly, if you don't like it, don't use it. Who gives a fuck if someone else is using it. Stop being dramatic about everything.

[Barkingturtle]

Illigal is not a word.

[mr_jon3s]

Voted I dont care because I see so much stuff that breaks the spirit of classic.

[Cecily]

Voted Illigal/Fair

[Jauna]

Illegal/Unfair, breaks the spirit of classic. This is a gateway to other things, phone assisted auction tracker, phone based auctions making EC a thing of the past, phone based services (rez, port, clarity, ect). How soon will this app be used for tracking npcs and whatnot?

[Xer0]

I voted "Don't really give a fuck" because honestly, if you don't like it, don't use it. Who gives a fuck if someone else is using it. Stop being dramatic about everything.

QFT

also this one got my vote.

[Goofier]

Don't care, won't use it.
You kids and yer naps on yer phones, get off my modem!

[Frug]

The kiddies want ice cream for dinner

Can I have your stuff?

[quido]

Can we get a Bush/Towers option added please?

[Mirana]

"Illegal" should not be an option. Legality in this case is objective, not subjective. The app is legal.

[drktmplr12]

Illegal/Unfair, breaks the spirit of classic. This is a gateway to other things, phone assisted auction tracker, phone based auctions making EC a thing of the past, phone based services (rez, port, clarity, ect). How soon will this app be used for tracking npcs and whatnot?

lol

you forgot about phone assisted merb announcements? and twitter broadcasts?

same shit.

[Messianic]

Can we get a Bush/Towers option added please?

^

[HawkMasterson1999]

http://files.sharenator.com/images10-s225x225-80241-580.jpg

Bush did the map hacks.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-GWHxukZvvb4/T1PMJDpufRI/AAAAAAAAD60/pL6-OGCqK-c/s1600/1-ObamaMuslim.jpg

And Obama expanded the program!

[myriverse]

"Illegal" should not be an option. Legality in this case is objective, not subjective. The app is legal.

[Kika Maslyaka]

"Illegal" should not be an option. Legality in this case is objective, not subjective. The app is legal.

It is subjective, cause its a software that circumvents intentionally turned off in-game maps. If turning on in-game maps is illegal on P99, then using a software that does same thing via 3rd party tools can also be classified as illegal.
Log reader by itself is legal, what it does with the data it obtains is subject to interpretations.

By analogy, if guns are illegal, and spoons are legal, if you would have used a spoon to kill a person, a defense on a grounds "spoons are legal hence I am not guilty", would not be found plausible. You possession of a spoon is legal, your usage of it is not.

[myriverse]

It is subjective, cause its a software that circumvents intentionally turned off in-game maps. If turning on in-game maps is illegal on P99, then using a software that does same thing via 3rd party tools can also be classified as illegal.
Log reader by itself is legal, what it does with the data it obtains is subject to interpretations.

By analogy, if guns are illegal, and spoons are legal, if you would have used a spoon to kill a person, a defense on a grounds "spoons are legal hence I am not guilty", would not be found plausible. You possession of a spoon is legal, your usage of it is not.
Proven wrong.

[Kika Maslyaka]

Proven wrong.

by whom? prove it?

[myriverse]

Just because the ingame map was removed doesn't make its functionality illegal. It was just removed. And ANY and ALL 3rd party log readers are legal as long as they do not alter the function of the game or automate things, as stated by the entirety of the staff.

[Gonzo Joe]

So I type /loc and look over at Muse's map on the wiki which I have opened on my second monitor to reference my position on the grid = Okay and legal.

I type /loc and a software application does the reference for me by parsing the loc data from my log and puts a pointer on the map, which is still open on my second monitor = Illegal.

The difference between legal and illegal is that I'm using a simple software program to do some mental gruntwork for me? Goddammed Luddites....

[Mirana]

If turning on in-game maps is illegal on P99, then using a software that does same thing via 3rd party tools can also be classified as illegal.

Wrong. That is simply YOUR INTERPRETATION of a situation. Using 3rd party tools to do things that are normally not possible within the game, when within the server rules is completely legal. It's legal because the devs said it is legal, and because it does not break any rules regarding the use of /log.

By analogy, if guns are illegal, and spoons are legal, if you would have used a spoon to kill a person, a defense on a grounds "spoons are legal hence I am not guilty", would not be found plausible. You possession of a spoon is legal, your usage of it is not.

Obviously it's illegal to murder someone with a spoon, because murder is illegal.

[Dragonsblood1987]

Part of the fun is running into a zone and not knowing where anything is. it forces you to explore and adventure, at least to some degree. No maps!

[myriverse]

Even explorers and adventurers use maps. The smart ones, at least.

[Champion_Standing]

It is subjective, cause its a software that circumvents intentionally turned off in-game maps. If turning on in-game maps is illegal on P99, then using a software that does same thing via 3rd party tools can also be classified as illegal.
Log reader by itself is legal, what it does with the data it obtains is subject to interpretations.

By analogy, if guns are illegal, and spoons are legal, if you would have used a spoon to kill a person, a defense on a grounds "spoons are legal hence I am not guilty", would not be found plausible. You possession of a spoon is legal, your usage of it is not.

Turning on in game maps is not illegal, just like spell sets aren't illegal. They were just UI features that have been disabled.

Did you know that this server actually had maps for a while? And guess what....I still had fun! Crazy huh?

[Kika Maslyaka]

Champion_Standing and Mirana

I understand your logic and interpretation of the situation.
The point I am trying to make is:

-If this new software is GM approved, then turning off in-game maps becomes a moot point, since this software not only duplicates its function, but actually enhances it.

Which leads to 2 possible situations:

a) GM allow in-game maps back, going against their previous decision based on the fact that's maps were not classic

OR

b) GM still disallow in-game maps, while letting even more powerful map system to operate, which leads to rather amusing stance of "In game maps are not classic so you can't use them, but using 3rd party tools that do exactly same thing is ok"

To show you why this situation is awkward from logical point of view, consider this analogy:

-During Great Depression US Government forbid sale and production of Alcohol. Now imagine a situation where government only forbid production and sale of alcohol by organizations, but not individuals: so it would be illegal to buy alcohol in a store, but its ok to brew it at home and consume in any amount.

[Grimfan]

Champion_Standing and Mirana

I understand your logic and interpretation of the situation.
The point I am trying to make is:

-If this new software is GM approved, then turning off in-game maps becomes a moot point, since this software not only duplicates its function, but actually enhances it.

Which leads to 2 possible situations:

a) GM allow in-game maps back, going against their previous decision based on the fact that's maps were not classic

OR

b) GM still disallow in-game maps, while letting even more powerful map system to operate, which leads to rather amusing stance of "In game maps are not classic so you can't use them, but using 3rd party tools that do exactly same thing is ok"

To show you why this situation is awkward from logical point of view, consider this analogy:

-During Great Depression US Government forbid sale and production of Alcohol. Now imagine a situation where government only forbid production and sale of alcohol by organizations, but not individuals: so it would be illegal to buy alcohol in a store, but its ok to brew it at home and consume in any amount.

What about the out of game mapping program makes you feel it's more powerful than an in-game map? If you do not mind me asking.

Just so you know, people did make and still do make moonshine, and it's still illegal, you cannot stop people from producing alcohol. The difference here is that they did try to stop them. But honestly this analogy has nothing to do with a mapping program on an EverQuest server and I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

If you feel that this technology wasn't possible back in 1999/2000 then I'd like you to look at some early versions of showEQ, which was essentially a similar style of program but it was able to read a lot more and show you mob positioning, loot, etc. This was back before there were in-game maps, and it just used an out of game map to give you the positions. This technology was available (in a more powerful form) and so it's not really that big of a deal that it exists IMO, especially since all this program will do is show you where you are on a map.

[happyhappy]

If you feel that this technology wasn't possible back in 1999/2000 then I'd like you to look at some early versions of showEQ, which was essentially a similar style of program but it was able to read a lot more and show you mob positioning, loot, etc. This was back before there were in-game maps, and it just used an out of game map to give you the positions. This technology was available (in a more powerful form) and so it's not really that big of a deal that it exists IMO, especially since all this program will do is show you where you are on a map.

And using SEQ will get you banned on P99.

[Nocte]

I don't understand how people think this is classic. I am impressed with the idea, but classic mapping was a binder full of printouts because the EQ client didn't allow alt-tabbing until after Velious (maybe Luclin?).

[Nocte]

So I type /loc and look over at Muse's map on the wiki which I have opened on my second monitor to reference my position on the grid = Okay and legal.

I don't know how big your trust fund is, but multiple monitor setups weren't really common outside of Hollywood movies about "hackers." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the video cards of the day (i.e. Voodoo3 64MB) didn't typically accommodate two monitors.

[SamwiseRed]

staff goes out of there way to disable maps on p99 just to have the players rebel and put em back on. heh

[zanderklocke]

Illigal is not a word.

[loramin]

I don't know how big your trust fund is, but multiple monitor setups weren't really common outside of Hollywood movies about "hackers." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the video cards of the day (i.e. Voodoo3 64MB) didn't typically accommodate two monitors.

I think some (really rich) people used two graphic cards. Plus we had those KVM switch things that would let you control two computers from a single keyboard/mouse. The expensive KVMs would even switch control from one computer to the other when you moved the mouse to the edge of the screen (the way dual monitors work now).

I don't understand how people think this is classic. I am impressed with the idea, but classic mapping was a binder full of printouts because the EQ client didn't allow alt-tabbing until after Velious (maybe Luclin?).

I think this is exactly it. Did people use binders of maps back in 2000? Hell yeah (I know I did). But I also was forced to run in full-screen mode back then ... until I discovered the "cheat" that was EQW.

Now I'm not forced to run in full screen mode, and if I do run full screen can still have a map on a second monitor. In other words, we're already fucked here: we will never reproduce the true 1999 experience. Sure individuals can voluntarily enforce it on themselves, but Rogean isn't going to come to your house and put a gun to your head until you run in fullscreen mode.

That's why we need to stop worrying about map apps. OF COURSE they didn't exist in 1999, but neither did windowed EQ without "cheats". Let's just appreciate the wonderfully classic server the P99 team provides, and the hacked-to-be-almost-classic client they (and the Pirate Bay) provide, and not get bent out of shape over anything external to those two.

[Grimfan]

I don't know how big your trust fund is, but multiple monitor setups weren't really common outside of Hollywood movies about "hackers." Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the video cards of the day (i.e. Voodoo3 64MB) didn't typically accommodate two monitors.

I had four computers, three I played EverQuest from, one was a reference PC for things like Alla/EQ Atlas and such. But I guess I wasn't common.

[Kika Maslyaka]

staff goes out of there way to disable maps on p99 just to have the players rebel and put em back on. heh

That was my point all along. They put a huge lock on the front door, but its ok to enter trough a window.

[Grimfan]

And using SEQ will get you banned on P99.

I'm not saying that it's legal to use it here, what I'm saying is that the technology existed. I agree that not all "classic" tools should exist, but a map that shows where the player is, DPS scrubbers/loggers, auction trackers, and any other random thing that just reads the log is not a big deal, and it isn't anything new. They did exist, even in the early years of EverQuest.

[Grimfan]

That was my point all along. They put a huge lock on the front door, but its ok to enter trough a window.

Right because you're making the choice to ruin your own immersion at that point. No one is forcing you to download the program and run it alongside your client with a bind that hits /log over and over whenever you run around. But if you simply hit "M" and a map came up, that might ruin your experience trying to make you travel back to 1999. There's a huge difference between those two.

[flooze]

I don't understand why someone would go out of their way to play on a classic EQ server and then also go out of their way to use this program on that server. Seems pretty self defeating.

[Grimfan]

I don't understand why someone would go out of their way to play on a classic EQ server and then also go out of their way to use this program on that server. Seems pretty self defeating.

I think you're able to like a ton of things about Classic EQ, but not enjoy every aspect of it. If you think there's any alternative to playing classic EQ besides P99 either, you're straight up wrong. Every server that even comes close to upholding a classic theme is either underpopulated or underdeveloped or both. This is the only server that has a great population and development team.

However, some people really like maps. I can read a map just fine and open the P99 wiki for zones whenever I get lost/confused. All of my characters have max sense heading to make map reading easier, and I'm good at seeing landmarks on a map. Some individuals are awful at that, and I think that's why they decide to use an outside program.

[SamwiseRed]

using this program is like bitch slapping nilbog in the face then taking a shit on his lawn.

[myriverse]

I don't understand why someone would go out of their way to play on a classic EQ server and then also go out of their way to use this program on that server. Seems pretty self defeating.
You can't really be that binary in thinking, right? There are a lot of reasons to be here that have nothing to do with "classic."

Frankly, a log parsing mapper is no different than using a log parsing DPS calculator, which I was certainly using before Velious. They're both only doing calculations that we all do in our head outside of the game.

[webrunner5]

I voted "Don't really give a fuck" because honestly, if you don't like it, don't use it. Who gives a fuck if someone else is using it. Stop being dramatic about everything.

Please make this person president of the world. Smartest person on here. I can not believe there is another silly thread about this. Jesus people its just a damn game. A old as hell game at that. It not like kinda of knowing where crap is on a map is a real BIG secret.

P1999 is not classic or ever will be. 90% of everyone that plays on here knows every zone, every trick in the book for leveling, loot, etc. And 99% of everyone on here has 3 times better gear than they ever had on live. So piss on you if you don't like maps. Who cares. :(

[HawkMasterson1999]

I think you're able to like a ton of things about Classic EQ, but not enjoy every aspect of it. If you think there's any alternative to playing classic EQ besides P99 either, you're straight up wrong. Every server that even comes close to upholding a classic theme is either underpopulated or underdeveloped or both. This is the only server that has a great population and development team.

However, some people really like maps. I can read a map just fine and open the P99 wiki for zones whenever I get lost/confused. All of my characters have max sense heading to make map reading easier, and I'm good at seeing landmarks on a map. Some individuals are awful at that, and I think that's why they decide to use an outside program.

p99 became popular in the first place because people wanted to play classic EQ. That's why I couldn't sign up fast enough when I first caught wind of its existence 4 years ago. Now at this point it seems a different group of people are attracted to it because its where the people are. Its where the party's at.

It's like back in my high school days how my friends would throw a party with tight music ( 70's funk, soul, classic rock, new york rap, some west coast rap), good liquor, good smoke, cool girls and just cool people in general. Eventually as the night went on word of our chill ass party would spread and the "WOOOOOO" kids would show up blasting gay ass raver music out of there cars and snorting lines of ADHD meds. They never brought girls with them of course because why would girls even want to hang out with them. Eventually a fight would break out because these two groups don't belong together. The only reason they showed up in the first place is because we created an awesome atmosphere. The woo kids wanted what we had but their very nature prevented them from maintaining it.

The same dynamic is at play here on p99. Some people showing up late to this party are either just cheapskates who don't want to pay for an MMO subscription or thrift store hipsters who see classic EQ as the vintage mmo to accessorize themselves with. Either way, "classic" is the only reason there is a party here in the first place. If you can't respect classic, the party is going to get lame real quick. "Whats the big deal? Get with the times. You're living in the past" is the argument I'm seeing. YEAH NO SHIT WE'RE LIVING IN THE PAST. PROJECT 1999.

[Reguiy]

I found a video of everyone who is crying about the map app-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJG8ZFy7QTs

[Grimfan]

p99 became popular in the first place because people wanted to play classic EQ. That's why I couldn't sign up fast enough when I first caught wind of its existence 4 years ago. Now at this point it seems a different group of people are attracted to it because its where the people are. Its where the party's at.

It's like back in my high school days how my friends would throw a party with tight music ( 70's funk, soul, classic rock, new york rap, some west coast rap), good liquor, good smoke, cool girls and just cool people in general. Eventually as the night went on word of our chill ass party would spread and the "WOOOOOO" kids would show up blasting gay ass raver music out of there cars and snorting lines of ADHD meds. They never brought girls with them of course because why would girls even want to hang out with them. Eventually a fight would break out because these two groups don't belong together. The only reason they showed up in the first place is because we created an awesome atmosphere. The woo kids wanted what we had but their very nature prevented them from maintaining it.

The same dynamic is at play here on p99. Some people showing up late to this party are either just cheapskates who don't want to pay for an MMO subscription or thrift store hipsters who see classic EQ as the vintage mmo to accessorize themselves with. Either way, "classic" is the only reason there is a party here in the first place. If you can't respect classic, the party is going to get lame real quick. "Whats the big deal? Get with the times. You're living in the past" is the argument I'm seeing. YEAH NO SHIT WE'RE LIVING IN THE PAST. PROJECT 1999.

Oh man, such intensity.

[rollin5k]

Does illigal rhyme with wiggle?

App is not in the spirit of classic and its just lame.

[Rourk]

Illegal/Unfair, breaks the spirit of classic. This is a gateway to other things, phone assisted auction tracker, phone based auctions making EC a thing of the past, phone based services (rez, port, clarity, ect). How soon will this app be used for tracking npcs and whatnot?

Gateway drugs

Next up heroine. Take away everyones iphones, no one had such easy access to timers, that shit aint fucking classic

[Nivar Quartz]

using this program is like bitch slapping nilbog in the face then taking a shit on his lawn.

[loramin]

using this program is like bitch slapping nilbog in the face then taking a shit on his lawn.

Yes, which is why Derubael (who is on the same "team" as Nilbog) said it was perfectly ok, and why Nilbog himself even popped in to the thread (without ranting about people "taking a shit on his lawn").

But don't let that stop more "the sky is falling" posts about a silly log reader.

[Heavenzoutcast]

The way I look at it is if they really wanted morioka to use maps like that, they would just implement them in game and he done. Why "ok" another program when you can just fix the problem at the source and stop the conflicts from the get go. Anyone that doesn't want to use them can just disable the key binding for maps from the backspace and be done. Thoughts?

[sulpher01]

Whats the big deal.. you already have maps with the location grids on them. How is this so different? Are people that bad at charting x and y that they think this is game breaking? I weep for society then...